Satyr_icon said: Don't see the point in having a figurative meaning when you should have a correct meaning for a subject. That way what you say actually makes sense and isn't incorrect when looking at the facts like it is here You say that doesn't exist because you're completely ignoring the way people usually apply the word in favour of your own definition, which, frankly, isn't very popular. Unless I missed someone else, only you and Manaban seems to have a problem with this definition of self-insertion in this particular thread. It's the first time I myself have seen someone with this kind of gripe, because self-insertion is a very well defined word in any community. You're taking the term literally when it is meant to be taken figuratively. Satyr_icon said: Ive never played a Dating Sim so I wouldn't know honestly so I'm sorry but I can't comment as it would be from ignorance and I don't want to be incorrect here I don't see how it is different. I mean, I think we can at least agree that Dating Sims have self-insertion features, and that a character having a bit of independent personality (in RPGs, for instance — even the Persona MCs have some bit of personality outside the player's decisions, especially since a load of decisions doesn't really make any difference, sometimes not even different lines of dialogue) doesn't really take the self-insertion aspect away from him. So, how is it that just adapting a Dating Sim into an anime would automatically sever its self-insertion aspects? My point is that it wouldn't. As for why the intention of the staff and what the audience actually does isn't related. Its not the same since what the audience does is completely separate and not fully controllable from what the creators can provoke in them. For all we know the staff might hate the work they are adapting and don't try to evoke any kind of response in the viewer yet the viewers is reacting however they are be it positive or negative when seeing it Satyr_icon said: Is just an example of the larger issue since its not the first time we've had this issue in the forums and I'm thinking about it here since you're arguing for the validity of this assumption on fans. That...didn't make a lot of sense. Besides, I don't know why you're saying that to me, since I neither ignored you nor assumed I was right from the start. I thought we were having a normal discussion. Satyr_icon said: Im not trying to assume, Im simply asking because trying to have greater grasp on your angle here so sorry if I sounded assumptious I don't see how assuming that I like to self-insert or that I actually have no opinion of my own and am only repeating third-party assumptions will add to the discussion...but no, because as I said (and you quoted), you can very well consume anime with self-insertion elements (or whatever elements) without feeling the need to immerse yourself into it. You can very well enjoy a power fantasy story for other aspects that's not it being a power fantasy. I say that because self-insertion is actually a thing in fiction, and even if your meaning is also right, it doesn't mean the way other people are using it is wrong. Satyr_icon said: I don't do that. I don't assume any character is a self insert from the start regardless of what kind of show. This the problem Im talking about. Its assuming something and then sticking with that regardless of the facts down the road I can see how the way the OP put it ticked you guys off, but I don't see your problem with the term self-insertion. Isekai main characters are always defined as self-insert and I've never seen anyone having a problem with that. |
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Deknijff said: Don't see the point in having a figurative meaning when you should have a correct meaning for a subject. That way what you say actually makes sense and isn't incorrect when looking at the facts like it is here That makes absolutely no sense. Just because it is figurative doesn't mean it's incorrect. I have no idea how you reached such a conclusion. Deknijff said: Ive never played a Dating Sim so I wouldn't know honestly so I'm sorry but I can't comment as it would be from ignorance and I don't want to be incorrect here Neither have I (unless you count Doki Doki), but I know the mechanics. It's exactly what the name implies, there's no big secret behind it. Deknijff said: As for why the intention of the staff and what the audience actually does isn't related. Its not the same since what the audience does is completely separate and not fully controllable from what the creators can provoke in them. For all we know the staff might hate the work they are adapting and don't try to evoke any kind of response in the viewer yet the viewers is reacting however they are be it positive or negative when seeing it And why exactly does any of that matters in the question at hand? For all we know, Pupa could have been intended as a serious look at the human condition. What the creators originally intended doesn't matter if they utterly fail at it. Deknijff said: Im not trying to assume, Im simply asking because trying to have greater grasp on your angle here so sorry if I sounded assumptious When I and others use the word "self-insert" it's not that we think people will look at Rimuru and think "well I always wanted to be a Slime". What matters is the situation the MC finds themselves in, even if the viewers can't connect directly with the MC. It's the reason so many of those anime take place in RPG worlds and high school: because it's a familiar setting to the audience. A perfect example of that is Tatami Galaxy, which is one of my favourite anime. The main character can very easily act as a self-insert character for 20 somethings that find themselves in the same situation as him (I mean, even the guy's name is simply "watashi"). As I see it, yours and Manaban's arguments is that a character can't be a self-insert if they has a will of their own, but that line of thinking can easily be stretched for all the genres he mentioned (that are literally self-insert genres) because, save for tabletop RPGs, none of them features actual choices made by the audience. There's a set of pre-existent choices open for you (or in POV porn, there's not even a choice), that gives you an illusion of choice, but that still isn't your character: you're just following it. Rather than a puppeteer, you're just being led by the puppet and giving it a push now and then. How is that so different from anime characters? Deknijff said: I don't do that. I don't assume any character is a self insert from the start regardless of what kind of show. This the problem Im talking about. Its assuming something and then sticking with that regardless of the facts down the road Yes, assuming a character is a self-insert without even watching the show is wrong, sure, but there's nothing wrong with doing after the show. However, yours and Manaban's like of thinking indicates that there can be no such thing as a self-insert character in genres like harem and isekai when the character has a will of their own, and about that, I can't see any reason to agree. I'm not saying that ALL harem are definitely self-insert like the OP, or that everyone who watches these shows does do for self-insertion, but it's a fact that some of them are and some of the audience does. Just that. |
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| I observe the events as an observer of T&A and you know, laugh at it and have fun, like I'm supposed to. |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
Satyr_icon said: and I don't see any conclusion as to why you need to water down a words meaning to fit your needs like here Deknijff said: That makes absolutely no sense. Just because it is figurative doesn't mean it's incorrect. I have no idea how you reached such a conclusion. Don't see the point in having a figurative meaning when you should have a correct meaning for a subject. That way what you say actually makes sense and isn't incorrect when looking at the facts like it is here Satyr_icon said: Im just saying that what the staff is supposedly doing is unrelated towards what viewers are supposedly doingAnd why exactly does any of that matters in the question at hand? For all we know, Pupa could have been intended as a serious look at the human condition. What the creators originally intended doesn't matter if they utterly fail at it. Satyr_icon said: You're still saying simply because fans can identify things they are familiar with its self inserting which is a giant leap though When I and others use the word "self-insert" it's not that we think people will look at Rimuru and think "well I always wanted to be a Slime". What matters is the situation the MC finds themselves in, even if the viewers can't connect directly with the MC. It's the reason so many of those anime take place in RPG worlds and high school: because it's a familiar setting to the audience. A perfect example of that is Tatami Galaxy, which is one of my favourite anime. The main character can very easily act as a self-insert character for 20 somethings that find themselves in the same situation as him (I mean, even the guy's name is simply "watashi"). I wouldn't say someone saying or thinking it would be cool to be in those shoes is self inserting either. Is simply saying what if. Sure that can happen but its not self insertion as you aren't pretending to be a character as you are watching the show and trying to argue it is despite not being the case is just bending words for no good reason. Satyr_icon said: Again I don't play those kinds of games or watch POV porn actually so I can't have an opinion on it and anything I say on the matter would be worthless at best. I can't compare anime characters to something I know nothing about so its better to discuss that with @Manaban once he decides to come back to the thread since he made the point and I trust his knowledge is better than mine on it As I see it, yours and Manaban's arguments is that a character can't be a self-insert if they has a will of their own, but that line of thinking can easily be stretched for all the genres he mentioned (that are literally self-insert genres) because, save for tabletop RPGs, none of them features actual choices made by the audience. There's a set of pre-existent choices open for you (or in POV porn, there's not even a choice), that gives you an illusion of choice, but that still isn't your character: you're just following it. Rather than a puppeteer, you're just being led by the puppet and giving it a push now and then. How is that so different from anime characters? Satyr_icon said: But you said always defined which would imply a preconception from the start and simply sticking with itDeknijff said: Yes, assuming a character is a self-insert without even watching the show is wrong, sure, but there's nothing wrong with doing after the show. However, yours and Manaban's like of thinking indicates that there can be no such thing as a self-insert character in genres like harem and isekai when the character has a will of their own, and about that, I can't see any reason to agree.I don't do that. I don't assume any character is a self insert from the start regardless of what kind of show. This the problem Im talking about. Its assuming something and then sticking with that regardless of the facts down the road I'm not saying that ALL harem are definitely self-insert like the OP, or that everyone who watches these shows does do for self-insertion, but it's a fact that some of them are and some of the audience does. Just that. I wouldn't say no such thing exists. But its so rare when actually discussing harem MCs it practically never comes up when we fans talk about what characters we like or dislike |
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Deknijff said: and I don't see any conclusion as to why you need to water down a words meaning to fit your needs like here I'm not "watering" anything down. I don't think you know what figuratively means. Deknijff said: Im just saying that what the staff is supposedly doing is unrelated towards what viewers are supposedly doing ...so? What's your point? I don't get it. Deknijff said: You're still saying simply because fans can identify things they are familiar with its self inserting which is a giant leap though I wouldn't say someone saying or thinking it would be cool to be in those shoes is self inserting either. Is simply saying what if. Sure that can happen but its not self insertion as you aren't pretending to be a character as you are watching the show and trying to argue it is despite not being the case is just bending words for no good reason. So it's just a matter that you're not using the word as people usually do, and still, you keep insisting that YOUR meaning should be the only one there is. That's why we simply can't agree. You say I'm "bending words", but for me, you're the one doing it. You can't expect to suddenly come up with a definition that's not universally agreed upon and then be shocked that people don't agree with you. Deknijff said: But you said always defined which would imply a preconception from the start and simply sticking with it A word of advice: don't take everything to the letter. |
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Satyr_icon said: I don't know how better explain it to you I'm sorry ...so? What's your point? I don't get it. Satyr_icon said: But you already admitted that the meaning that me and @Manaban used was correctDeknijff said: So it's just a matter that you're not using the word as people usually do, and still, you keep insisting that YOUR meaning should be the only one there is.You're still saying simply because fans can identify things they are familiar with its self inserting which is a giant leap though I wouldn't say someone saying or thinking it would be cool to be in those shoes is self inserting either. Is simply saying what if. Sure that can happen but its not self insertion as you aren't pretending to be a character as you are watching the show and trying to argue it is despite not being the case is just bending words for no good reason. That's why we simply can't agree. You say I'm "bending words", but for me, you're the one doing it. You can't expect to suddenly come up with a definition that's not universally agreed upon and then be shocked that people don't agree with you. Satyr_icon said: So Im not bending the word. You even admitted your use of the word is simply figurativeIt's not that your meaning is wrong, of course, but if you're gonna ignore the way other people use it, there's no way we can ever talk on the same wavelength. Satyr_icon said: Which takes on something else less factual to what actually happens and is broad enough in this context to mean anything can fall under it which makes the word meaningless in terms of our discussionYou're taking the term literally when it is meant to be taken figuratively. |
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| I dislike harem too but I have decide to watch Monogatari anyway.I watched it for its animation,then I fell in love with Nadeko and Oikura.They don't love the MC:Nadeko stopped feeling something towards him and Oikura always hated him for not helping her.They acted more like real person unlike other female characters and I love it. Ps:At the start I also loved Kanbaru and Senjougahara but later they've changed. |
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I said that your meaning is correct as well as mine, which you seem to have conveniently ignored. Luckily I'm here to remind you. Deknijff said: So Im not bending the word. You even admitted your use of the word is simply figurative And here I am still wondering if you know what figurative means... Deknijff said: Which takes on something else less factual to what actually happens and is broad enough in this context to mean anything can fall under it which makes the word meaningless in terms of our discussion ...but after that, I guess I have my answer. sigh, let me try giving an example. If someone says: "I'm dying of hunger", they can mean either: 1. literally: they are on the brink of starvation; 2. figuratively: they are very hungry. The figurative meaning isn't "less factual" than the literal one, it just has another meaning altogether. And it's not "broad enough", because I'm stating exactly what it means, and if that matters, I already demonstrated that your meaning can be just as broad, in case you also forgot that. It's that simple. Really, let's just drop that word before this turns even more into a discussion about semantics. That shouldn't even have been the focus here. |
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| I like the cut of your jib, OP. I can always appreciate an articulate way to say "fuck harems". |
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PanzernKern said: You should just avoid watching that genre if you can't watch it in the first place. In my case, I turn off my brain when watching that kind of anime. I'm just in it for the art, fan service, and for laughs too. Gotta agree. Harem series shouldn't be analyzed as some epic, innovative anime. They are there to make you laugh. Personally, I enjoy these series as a de-stresser, where I don't have to think too hard on the plot and characters. |
| Yeah! Harem anime can be great for writing interesting characters and exploring what makes each of them tick. The World God Only Knows and Ouran High School Host Club jump out as a good examples by not only showing interesting and complex characters, but by also having an interesting and unique protagonist. But unfortunately not a lot of harem anime fufill the conditions to go past that kind of basic, self-fulfillment enjoyment. |
| I like some harem anime for the characters. The same holds true for most romance anime. The comedy can also be a reason why I continue watching a harem or the story in rare cases like with The World God only Knows. |
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| Self inserting? Isn't that what is usually done in very intimate moments? |
| Life Is Short But Intense. |
| From my experience, I've never heard anyone say they enjoy harem stuff because they self-insert into the MC. Well self-inserting is really impossible in anime/manga/LN as every character is given their own personality(whether they are interesting or likable or vice versa is irrelevant, they are personalities regardless) and no blank slates exist(unless you count One Room). The closest thing would be relating to or identifying with the main character, which is its own separate thing altogether. |
-MahesvaraApr 24, 2019 3:56 PM
My Queens  |
| Wtf would project themselves into a digital world consist of pixel lmao fuckin loser get a life lol they aren't real |
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| Even Evangelion is a self insert harem anime under the right lens. :) |
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
| Harem could be interesting if the MC wouldnt always be asexual and the girls appear to be brainwashed. The harem of the one dude in Gundam Iron blooded orphans worked pretty well. Granted he was not a MC. |
| "This emotion is mine alone. It is for Madoka alone." - Homura or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. |
| You're not wrong, OP. Most harem seem to be tailor-made for just this purpose. It's the reason that harem MC's can usually be summed up as 'nice' and 'dumb'. Having few distinct characteristics and a complete lack of anything that would make them stand out from the crowd makes them easier for self-insert purposes, even if it both makes them a a more boring character and also begs the question of how someone this boring and unimpressive manages to have 3+ women fighting over him. The only harem I can think of that actually had a somewhat interesting MC and a purpose beyond wank-fodder are Bakemonogatari and Ouran High School Host Club. I'm somewhat hesitant in recommending Bakemonogatari, since it has a bit of sexualization of children, but the uniqueness of the visual and concept and the strength of the characterization make it a hell of a lot more interesting than most harem. Ouran being a shoujo and reverse harem, the emphasis is less on fan-service then on comedy. And not 'isn't watching a guy trip and accidentally touch boobs for the fifteen millionth time hilarious?' comedy. Actual comedy. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
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