Grizzziff said: Ryuk9428 said: I don't mind the hardcore fans, at this point in my life I really have no desire to be considered a normal person who fits into mainstream society anymore. I tried to be normal once and it was suffocating. You may find the hardcore fans irritating but I am more concerned about what normies would do to the community if large numbers of them started being attracted to anime and I'm kind of glad the hardcore fans push them away a little. Imagine if anime suddenly got infested with hardcore misandrist feminism, SJW propaganda, and if all the ecchi fanservice kind of stuff was eliminated because of that? One of the reasons I like anime a lot compared to US television right now is because I don't feel like half the characters and storylines are just SJW propaganda being shoved down my throat. Anime gives the writers more creative storytelling power, and one major part of that is because they aren't being suffocated by Hollywood political correctness. You sound like a proper bigot.... HA, Im just jokin. How'd you happen upon one of my biggest fears? Is it my image? If it walks like a man, talks like a man... You see though, that lot you mentioned, they're in the western fan base in number already. That's where you find the I identify as a cat girl lot. Also, I promise being a hardcore fan won't put disinterest between me and a person. I am now a rather hardcore fan myself. Its the all to common behavioral issues and their intensity I don't favor. Like bad dogs that cant get on with other dogs. Just that basic rude ass pretentiousness that comes package deal from your average anime degen. The waifu pillow culture might not be for me, but that is not even that high ranking when we are talking about detracting factors. Its a part of it sure, but everyone always tries to cover that issue first. Even when dealing with the fan service recommendations. The awkwardly affectionate, are really a stilt the actual discrepancy stands on. You finally find anime interesting, good, now some one that owns a waifu pillow is being an asshole to you. See, its just a little extra salt but not the wound. Honestly, at the end of the day IF YOU LOVE ANIME, then you should want it to do better financially. You are surrounded by loved ones and friends, I hope anyway, and you know their interests just as good as anyone else would. NOW, you have thousands of pieces of diversified anime content, ALL collected on an excellent resource like MAL. Take a breath, figure one out, reach out and show em. Sharing it with your family makes sense. I showed my dad Death Note because I thought he would like it and he did which I liked. Like I said, there's no problem with introducing friends or family to something you enjoy, its natural. A few of them are but they're thankfully a pretty small number that isn't making too much of an impact on the culture at large. I think the anime community in general is just a lot more tolerant of weirdness in general so you're gonna get some people who identify as a cat lol. I mean, I don't really see a problem with the waifu pillow culture. If buying a pillow of their favorite female character to hug and snuggle with makes them happy and alleviates their loneliness then that's a good thing right? I do want it to do well financially and it is doing pretty well. Its a 20 billion dollar per year industry and growing. But I also want it to stay true to the way it was and not lose itself by trying to become bigger. Sorry what was your biggest fear? Lol. |
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Greyleaf said: Vluddipijjun said: Why should we defend the tropes, exactly? If the goal is to bring outsiders in, wouldn't one be better off giving them good work that happens to be anime (like Bebop) rather than very anime work that happens to be good? I feel you'll have a lot easier time catching someone's imagination with potential than trying to assuage their distaste of anime's downsides. I agree with this. My friends that I've introduced to anime (and even myself, with Bebop specifically) started with shows that didn't fall into the norm of anime-only tropes that usually put people off to the medium to begin with. I began with Bebop, made my way to Steins;Gate, and then slowly started delving into what I would've otherwise considered to be bizarre, prior to my exposure to less daunting titles. I personally find it better to ease others into it, rather than having them jump head first into the perturbing side of anime and saying "better embrace it all right here and now." That's not how it works, lol. Manaban has responded to these statements better than I can do but it's about the balance and also about the philosophy behind. I understand that anime looks weird and culturally confined but you are trying to get another person to watch anime. If for starters you assume that what you watch is so difficult to get into, then how are you even going to convince another person to get into it? And this is the vibe that "recommend shows that don't have any anime tropes" gives me. It's okay to have anime tropes. They are not something to shy away from on purpose. Cowboy Bebop is an excellent starting point and has successfully got a lot of people into anime (it has action, sci-fi, a rule of cool MC, a good dub), don't get me wrong, but if your idea of recommending this show to newcomers is to introduce them to anime with something that looks the least anime possible, chances are that they watch it, love it, and then still feel alienated from the general looks of anime. Which happens quite often as well. There's a series of personal considerations to make when recommending anime and each individual is different (some users have shared other cool stories), but to apply the rule of thumb that in order to introduce anime you must hide its anime traits rubs me the wrong way. Because it sounds like alienating yourself from the newcomer, or making a strong assumption that they can't or it is "too soon" for them to accept tropes, like they are something you can only appreciate if you get used to it, or like they are a guilty pleasure that should not be exposed or talked about outside of the community. I'm not saying "throw them this ecchi loli harem". Showing anime tropes doesn't mean showing ANY anime tropes indiscriminately. Recommending is still an active task that requires you to empathize with the other person and their preferences and prejudgements. It's a matter of knowing a little about them and picking what they are more prone to establish a connection with. On a side note, loving the hot takes of @katsucats trying to prove something like FMA:Brotherhood and Cowboy Bebop aren't factually successful introductory shows and very big in the West with non-otaku audiences. |
| I would start with a movie, yes. Or maybe some interesting short stories. It doesn't require the commitment of a long anime and is a good way to highlight storytelling that is actually quite profound. If they still don't like it that's okay, to each their own, but it might lessen some of the bias people have regarding anime. |
TaloraelApr 9, 2019 7:04 AM
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| What draws people into anime is the novelty. That pretty much means the tropes, unique genres, different form of comedy etc. No one I know irl actually watched LoGH. No, they watch some mainstream stuff like Hero Academia. There are problems with Cowboy Bebop too. Biggest problem being that it's episodic and has no plot hook. Personally I just recommend a streaming site or a free sub and watch whatever looks interesting or funny. |
| Like all hobbies. You can introduce them. If other party doesn't get "captured" or intrigued by it on the first run. Then no point forcing it. If person just shittalks some hobby with forced thoughts and gives bullshit opinion. Then you can explain/defend it. If that person still forces shit on without thinking. Then ignore that person. |
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Manaban said: The thing is, "what they'll be in for" could be various things, roughly categorizable as follows:The same is being applied to anime in this instance. Do we want to get them into one anime, or anime as a medium? If it's the latter that people going, showing them a work that's totally removed from the majority of its contemporaries is doing little more than giving them a false impression of what they'll be in for. They aren't getting into "anime." They're getting into an exception, something totally different from what they've established that they dislike. It barely does anything to show them the breadth of the medium as a whole, no matter how much they appreciate whatever show in question. * Does "getting into anime" mean liking all different sorts of anime, even the things they used to not like? or * Does "getting into anime" simply mean watching some anime, and avoiding stuff that they don't like? You seem to be implying that it should be former, but I think that it's the latter -- that's the case for pretty much anyone. No one is equally a fan of everything, and even people who are hardcore enough to maintain MAL lists for themselves will still find themselves complaining about this genre or that trope. If someone only likes mecha anime, or if someone only likes high school romcom anime, or if someone only likes action thriller anime, their tastes certainly don't reflect anime as a whole medium, but that doesn't really make them not anime fans either, because no single anime fan's tastes reflect the whole medium anyway. Let's say you introduce someone to anime because they like mechs, and they get into mecha anime, but think the rest is cute-girls-doing-cute-things garbage. Well, is that really all that different from someone who's watched anime for years (and loves some other genre), who makes a claim that anime is clogged full of isekai these days and refuses to watch any of it? |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| ive been watching anime for a long time. Ive seen many and lets be real - anime is mostly a bunch of fighting and yelling, and over-sexualized characters (also boring school dramas and incest) but the same could be said about most film and TV (including the school dramas and incest to a degree- looking at you GoT) So thats not a great argument to make vs anime. |
| https://combosmooth.itch.io/ - I make free-to-play browser games for PC and I sell pixel art animation here |
| Since anime is a niche medium if somebody hasn't even heard of it and has little interest in it why even try? |
| Life Is Short But Intense. |
| The work I always gift to mothers is Wolf Children. It never fails. I have noticed my mother in law likes Death Note and Ghost in the Shell. She started with the live actions that everyone hates so much. XD |
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
| I do not know what shows, and I do not care. |
| You said it yourself - your friend showed you anime he knew you would enjoy. 'Outsiders' - I use this term loosely - come with interests of their own. There is no set list of shows that are guaranteed to induce a positive reaction out of them. To have the best chance of 'succeeding', mirror their distinct personal interests when searching for a show to present. |
petran79 said: I haven't seen the gay superheroes, but it isn't enough to merely have shocking sexual content to be called fanservice in my book. The breast transplant in South Park presumably contributed to a joke; that is, the content relates to the plot and makes sense in context. In Hollywood fantasy epics, in another example, female characters often dress skimpily, which would be forgivable if that dress is in similar style to other members of the cast. The difference with anime is that some characters will sport a unique costume with a design irrelevant to the plot -- like why does a power transformation require high school girls to wear panties and straps? At least Kill la Kill made comments acknowledging that peculiarity. Anime would have a girl on her way to middle school show off her leggings for absolutely no reason, which is still less forgivable than gay superheroes focusing on genitals, which (as I haven't seen it) I presume is a part of it's shtick. The middle school girl does not have a BDSM interest, does not even have a sexually adventurous character. In anime, no character archetype escapes fanservice. It's not just a way to show how hot or promiscuous a character is. Even the nerdiest, plainest, and most innocent characters are shown off.katsucats said: I think adult Western cartoons are as shocking to some. Eg there is a cartoon on Netflix about a trio of gay superheroes, with plenty of fanservice too and focus on genitals. Or the South Park episode where a grade schooler gets breast transplants.Anime fans who don't think fanservice is bad should refrain from recommending any shows at all and risk giving other anime fans a bad name. I don't personally care because I don't identify with this community in general, but clearly this is a thing other people struggle with. You might not have noticed that pan shot of that elementary schooler's sexy legs, but to a non anime fan, that might as well have been Boku no Pico. In fact there was the paradox when Panty and Stocking was released that many anime viewers found the humor and fanservice disgusting and buried the series, despite that it paid tribute to all those adult Flash cartoons,but with the Gainax animated craziness this time. Regarding underage fanservice, the awarded Belgian bd Melusine had quite a few scenes of nudity featuring a young witch who was 119 years old. To a non anime fan, that is often a blaring randomness that's embarrassing to watch. I'm not saying that fanservice doesn't happen in Western media. I'm willing to bet, however, that most people are not watching the shows where there is the most egregious fanservice, whereas it's pretty much normalized across most anime. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Pullman said: This is trying too hard. People who are unaware of the social context in which they act sometimes do inappropriate things. In many cases, it is not appropriate to role play fiction without first establishing context or common interest. In many cases, anime characters are presented as being cool, even though what they do would be downright bizarre in the real world. This applies to anyone, whether they're Star Trek fans, Star Wars fans, Marvel/DC fans, Harry Potter fans, Lord of the Ring fans, or if they like any obscure thing most people have no interest in -- and one cannot just assume that a random stranger would have interest in those things -- and inappropriately act out in them. Of course, this also applies to anime fans."Anime fans irl are cringe except for me ofc, I'm the only normal one. Because I hide it and nobody knows I like anime. Being open about it is cringe as fuck." It's not about hiding the like of anime. One can say, "I love One Piece", and catch no flack among people with average maturity. But one cannot, without establishing context or common interest, yell "gomu gomu no gatuling gunu" while flailing his arms around as if that means anything to anyone who hasn't seen the show. And even people who have seen the show would be embarrassed since it would be impossible to concisely explain to other people this odd behavior. The criticism, the cringe, isn't against people who are passionate about anime, but people who are socially clueless, who do things that are inappropriate for a given situation. It's a disservice to anime fans to conflate the two and act as if social cluelessness must be the next stage to anime passion. They are in fact separate. One can be a devout and passionate anime fan while still understanding social convention. One can criticize cringey anime fans while still being an anime fan himself, because the cringe is not inherent in the love of anime. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| I got one friend that always said she doesn't like anime and won't watch it because she couldn't stand anime characters with big eyes and think anime story wouldn't fit her taste whenever my other friends and me discussing anime :/. But after 5 years suddenly she told me that she watched koi wa ameagari no you ni and sora yori mo tooi basho and love both of them :/. I think that's depend on the individual again, it would be better for them to start out anime when they take an interest of certain anime, or we reccomended to them anime that has genre closer to their preference. |
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| I make them watch opm s1 or death note, that usually works. |
| If I force my non-anime friends to watch Kimi no Na wa or Spirited Away they would kill me...so it highly depends on the friends which titles should be used as propaganda material. It's a bit hard to find compromise even with my anime watching friends what to marathon together on the weekend. No universal recipe. For example many people here mentioned Death Note...but I hate this anime mostly for it's direction and for the fact that it rushed the second part of the story. The manga is a 100 times better experience. Can't imagine what kind of anime fans would be recruited by it. |
| I've got some friends into anime when previously they'd turn their nose up if they were given any kind of it shown to them. The trick is to specifically appeal to what these people want, and make sure the first anime you pick is Good, because that will be your chance to hook them. All of the people I introduced anime to were girls so my method is, first remove all kind of fanservice you can (or at least make sure there's minimum) and then give them something generic that you know is popular but appeals to their interests (as previously stated) With people who like psychological thriller probably death note will work. Very strong ideas and narrative that isn't too weird. Attack on titan or fma are good starter if they like action. Good animation, interesting premise and not that different. With romance you've got your work cut out for you with kimi no na wa. Central idea we all know from other stories, pretty animation that will distract the audience when some awkward scenes happen (too much groping but oh well). |
Greyleaf said: We all know that some people still have terrible preconceived notions about anime, or the entire animated medium in general, even now in 2019 at the height of its acceptance and popularity. A lot of times, they think that all anime is a bunch of fighting and yelling, or over-sexualized characters, and some people who know even less just see animation as a medium for children. What shows do you guys think are good starting points for possibly changing an outsider's perception on the medium as a whole? I've personally shown a few people Kimi no Na wa and Spirited Away; they're not all-time favorites of mine or anything, but they have such a widespread appeal, and the people who watched them with me are quite fond of anime now in general. ***Edit: This thread was in no way intended to spark controversy over whether or not anime should be shown to non-viewers as a means of forcing your hobby upon them, especially if they're highly resistant toward giving the medium a chance. This topic solely stemmed from the fact that I personally had a rather warped perception of anime prior to becoming a fan, and my mindset on it changed when a friend introduced me to it with something he knew I would enjoy.*** What exactly was that anime that they knew you would enjoy? Forgive me if someones already asked. |
It's not like I like anime or anything. |
angry_cactus said: Greyleaf said: We all know that some people still have terrible preconceived notions about anime, or the entire animated medium in general, even now in 2019 at the height of its acceptance and popularity. A lot of times, they think that all anime is a bunch of fighting and yelling, or over-sexualized characters, and some people who know even less just see animation as a medium for children. What shows do you guys think are good starting points for possibly changing an outsider's perception on the medium as a whole? I've personally shown a few people Kimi no Na wa and Spirited Away; they're not all-time favorites of mine or anything, but they have such a widespread appeal, and the people who watched them with me are quite fond of anime now in general. ***Edit: This thread was in no way intended to spark controversy over whether or not anime should be shown to non-viewers as a means of forcing your hobby upon them, especially if they're highly resistant toward giving the medium a chance. This topic solely stemmed from the fact that I personally had a rather warped perception of anime prior to becoming a fan, and my mindset on it changed when a friend introduced me to it with something he knew I would enjoy.*** What exactly was that anime that they knew you would enjoy? Forgive me if someones already asked. No worries. It was Cowboy Bebop. It's still in my top 3, and Spike remains my favorite character of all time :) |
 "I am not sure that I exist, actually. I am all the writers that I have read, all the people that I have met, all the women that I have loved; all the cities I have visited." ― Jorge Luis Borges [url=]Goodreads[/url] | [url=]Letterboxd[/url] |
Greyleaf said: angry_cactus said: What exactly was that anime that they knew you would enjoy? Forgive me if someones already asked. No worries. It was Cowboy Bebop. It's still in my top 3, and Spike remains my favorite character of all time :) It's a classic for a reason, and Spike is an absolute legend, but it never struck me as something someone should watch as their first anime, maybe more like their 5th anime.But thats just a general feeling I have, nothing to back up my claim at all ahah |
It's not like I like anime or anything. |
| Abduct them and strap your victim on a chair and proceed to force them to watch every single season of anime possible. Now your brainwashing session is completed |
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angry_cactus said: Greyleaf said: No worries. It was Cowboy Bebop. It's still in my top 3, and Spike remains my favorite character of all time :) It's a classic for a reason, and Spike is an absolute legend, but it never struck me as something someone should watch as their first anime, maybe more like their 5th anime.But thats just a general feeling I have, nothing to back up my claim at all ahah Well I grew up watching anime but pretty much abandoned it, alongside all other forms of animation in my teen years. I had a buddy in college who studied film and he always recommended different foreign films and whatnot, and when he found out I was into jazz, he told me to give Bebop a try. The initial incentive was for me to observe how Yoko Kanno metered the score to the action (I was studying music composition), but I ultimately just fell back in love with anime/animation as a whole after that. |
"I am not sure that I exist, actually. I am all the writers that I have read, all the people that I have met, all the women that I have loved; all the cities I have visited." ― Jorge Luis Borges [url=]Goodreads[/url] | [url=]Letterboxd[/url] |
Greyleaf said: angry_cactus said: It's a classic for a reason, and Spike is an absolute legend, but it never struck me as something someone should watch as their first anime, maybe more like their 5th anime.But thats just a general feeling I have, nothing to back up my claim at all ahah Well I grew up watching anime but pretty much abandoned it, alongside all other forms of animation in my teen years. I had a buddy in college who studied film and he always recommended different foreign films and whatnot, and when he found out I was into jazz, he told me to give Bebop a try. The initial incentive was for me to observe how Yoko Kanno metered the score to the action (I was studying music composition), but I ultimately just fell back in love with anime/animation as a whole after that. OH the soundtrack doth slappeth. That makes complete sense why you got drawn back in. But, WAS studying music composition, thats an awesome major, did you switch? |
It's not like I like anime or anything. |
| You can't go wrong with Bebop. Kekkai Sensen I feel has a lot of variety in it, so I could see it hooking someone. It's english dub is nice too if people are a little put off by subtitles at first. |
| "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" - Steven Wright |
| I've actually found that accusing white people who hate anime of racism and xenophobia works. |
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petran79 said: I am ignorant of any cartoons before the 90s, so you might be right that they were once more liberal. I doubt that anyone wants to introduce anime to their friends like, "Just treat it like a gossip magazine." Anime characters aren't celebrities, or even real.Also the various Western gossip magazines that try to get the latest swimsuit or naked pic of celebrities, even while pregnant or being with their kids. I think the biggest culprit is that anime and manga are also tied economically to those businesses, in contrast to Western cartoons. Anime is tied to an industry of selling figures and expensive collector's items. Mostly, people who are willing to drop hundreds of dollars on pieces of plastic are the hardcore geeks, the otaku. Sadly, a lot of anime fans don't see fanservice as a detraction to the artwork, but even sees it as a kind of art in itself. I'd suggest that this kind of taste is acquired, and that even if someone takes this position, he needs to step outside his own shoes for a moment when recommending anime. I'm not sure if Western cartoons were ever afflicted with the same problem. In my limited experience, Western cartoons are usually centered around superheroes, or use sex to satirical effect. Superheroes might cause the same concern as ridiculous transform costumes in anime (e.g. the Kill la Kill uniform). That's a kind of excess to be sure, but not completely without context like looking up a student's skirt while she's walking. Anyways, I know we're not really arguing. It just amuses me when people on MAL, or in anime clubs, are confused as to why other people might not accept his favorite show, when he has been brainwashed into thinking that all this is normal. He doesn't even see it anymore, and doesn't understand when other people see it. To him, girls turning into chibis when they're mad is just how girls actually are, and doesn't at all make them into weak, dismissed damsels in distress, who put up a tough front but are actually real softies inside, which is surely the fantasy of every rapist. I'm not saying that anime fans are rapists or that feminist outrage always warrants merit, but that the average "hardcore" anime fan has a very distorted view of people in general, and part of that is propagated by the self-insert, otaku pandering fanservice nature of anime that's been curated over the decades to boost sales. That's fine. I don't need to look at everything like a sociological case study, but I recognize the different ways in which everything can be interpreted. Most casual anime fans do -- anyone who has ever had the experience of someone walking behind them while they're watching anime and became self conscious. Is it because it's a cartoon? Fuck no. It's the fanservice. Okay, I'll stop beating the dead bush. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| In my school, there are several "outsiders" who only think anime similarly as you've said. They are female. They love drama and i guess they have some form of hate towards anime fan because these anime fan insulting what they like. It also affects their view to anime, probably. They feel that they hate anime, but when you personally asked them "why" they can't even explain it properly. With Naruto and other shounen jump anime high popularity and seen as 'the face of anime' here, i think the only explanation is they think anime is just "a bunch of fighting and yelling, or over-sexualized characters or even less just see animation as a medium for children." But anime fan scattering around them, so they, of course, will be curious at anime. So some of the 'good' bois recommend them to watch Kimi no Na wa. They liked it, unexpectedly i saw kimi no na wa profile picture from one of them, lol. Kimi no na wa has a quite great drama on their story, and they like drama so it's quite expected that they will like it. There is no best anime to recommend to outsiders. Everyone is different, so it's just personal matter. Those drama lovers in my story find anime drama enjoyable. My point is people who like a genre will like that genre in any kind of 'television or film entertainment' including anime. Just recommend them anime that is genre-wise or plot-wise and suits to what they usually watch. Recommends classical-related anime to classical fan, like Hyouka or Shigatsu. Recommends hero-related anime to superhero fan, like One Punch Man or Mob Psycho. I think they will like it. Unless, if they perspectively hate anime because it's an animation. But yeah, if you thinking just to "change their view", it really depends on their original views. If they think anime is just fighting bullshits then Kimi no Na Wa is a good view-changing anime. |
| you can always not try to get outsiders into anime whats the point lol? you're always gonna be able to find someone to talk about it with like..... 1/4 of my job watches anime... and thats just the people i know of... i never tried to get any of them into it.. they just already were... and thats just my job alone im only interested in people who are already into it.. i have no reason to try others |
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| The only new people this medium needs are the ones who'll gladly buy dakimakura or figures. You know, people who both support the industry and appreciate the culture surrounding it. |
| There's no perfect anime out there that can change that mindset. I have friends who think the same way, "anime is just a bunch of dudes screaming and yelling at each other with weird animation and over-sexualization." What changes the person's mind is entirely dependant on who that person is and what their tastes are. Someone who has these preconceived notions could be exposed to a great rom-com, (for example Toradora) and enjoy it. Shounens may not appeal to their tastes, perhaps they thought all anime was just shounen and judged the entire medium on that basis. Someone else like that could also be exposed to a great deconstruction or parody, (like Hunter X Hunter or One Punch Man) and they'll see that shounens aren't so linear, that they have layers and their opinion changes on anime. I had a friend who hated Dragon Ball, Naruto, and Pokemon, but then watched One Punch Man and absolutely loved it. He then went on to watch animes like Hetalia and The Daily Lives of High school Boys. He didn't really become an 'anime fan', he just found a few that he enjoyed and realized that it's not just "dudes screaming". But the way I see it, whether or not their opinions are valid, at the end of the day it's irrelevant. You don't have to feel judged just cause they don't feel the same way about the medium as you do. It's just an opinion, everyone's entitled to have one and you shouldn't be bothered by the fact that some people don't like anime. Anime isn't for everyone. If they come to see that there are animes that appeal to their tastes, they'll find those animes on their own. You can't predict what people like or don't like all the time. There have been times I've tried to immerse my friends into the medium after knowing them for so many years and understanding their tastes, only for the animes that I reccomend to them just alienate them even more then before. |
nashdashinApr 11, 2019 9:56 AM
| I think it depends a bit on the outsider's personal taste. For example, Monster is a great pick for people who like slow-burn mysteries. Cowboy Bebop is a good pick for sci fi/western/crime noir fans. Fantasy fans might dig Princess Mononoke or Naussica of the Valley of the Winds. If they like sweet romance, I'd show them Asagao to Kase-san. If they like goofy comedies, Princess Jellyfish might be a good match. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
jal90 said: Manaban has responded to these statements better than I can do but it's about the balance and also about the philosophy behind. I understand that anime looks weird and culturally confined but you are trying to get another person to watch anime. If for starters you assume that what you watch is so difficult to get into, then how are you even going to convince another person to get into it? And this is the vibe that "recommend shows that don't have any anime tropes" gives me. It's okay to have anime tropes. They are not something to shy away from on purpose. Cowboy Bebop is an excellent starting point and has successfully got a lot of people into anime (it has action, sci-fi, a rule of cool MC, a good dub), don't get me wrong, but if your idea of recommending this show to newcomers is to introduce them to anime with something that looks the least anime possible, chances are that they watch it, love it, and then still feel alienated from the general looks of anime. Which happens quite often as well. There's a series of personal considerations to make when recommending anime and each individual is different (some users have shared other cool stories), but to apply the rule of thumb that in order to introduce anime you must hide its anime traits rubs me the wrong way. Because it sounds like alienating yourself from the newcomer, or making a strong assumption that they can't or it is "too soon" for them to accept tropes, like they are something you can only appreciate if you get used to it, or like they are a guilty pleasure that should not be exposed or talked about outside of the community. I'm not saying "throw them this ecchi loli harem". Showing anime tropes doesn't mean showing ANY anime tropes indiscriminately. Recommending is still an active task that requires you to empathize with the other person and their preferences and prejudgements. It's a matter of knowing a little about them and picking what they are more prone to establish a connection with. On a side note, loving the hot takes of @katsucats trying to prove something like FMA:Brotherhood and Cowboy Bebop aren't factually successful introductory shows and very big in the West with non-otaku audiences. I'll defer to this quote to hopefully re-rail what I attempted to contend at the first interjection; GlennMagusHarvey said: The thing is, "what they'll be in for" could be various things, roughly categorizable as follows: * Does "getting into anime" mean liking all different sorts of anime, even the things they used to not like? or * Does "getting into anime" simply mean watching some anime, and avoiding stuff that they don't like? Namely, I feel more it is my duty, in furtherance of the latter, to introduce good shows that are anime. As such, they'll watch more shows that are cool in concept to them that happen to be anime, and as such they'll become an anime fan. Liking tropes is fine (if you're into that), but I shouldn't be obligated to help assimilate a newcomer to them simply because they are present in the whole medium. Besides, even in cases where I'm picking less trope-y shows, it's not like they're going to be complete vacuums where no tropes will get through (see: Ed in Bebop). |
Greyleaf said: It depends what those people are into. From the top of my head Psycho Pass and Yumekui Merry.We all know that some people still have terrible preconceived notions about anime, or the entire animated medium in general, even now in 2019 at the height of its acceptance and popularity. A lot of times, they think that all anime is a bunch of fighting and yelling, or over-sexualized characters, and some people who know even less just see animation as a medium for children. What shows do you guys think are good starting points for possibly changing an outsider's perception on the medium as a whole? I've personally shown a few people Kimi no Na wa and Spirited Away; they're not all-time favorites of mine or anything, but they have such a widespread appeal, and the people who watched them with me are quite fond of anime now in general. ***Edit: This thread was in no way intended to spark controversy over whether or not anime should be shown to non-viewers as a means of forcing your hobby upon them, especially if they're highly resistant toward giving the medium a chance. This topic solely stemmed from the fact that I personally had a rather warped perception of anime prior to becoming a fan, and my mindset on it changed when a friend introduced me to it with something he knew I would enjoy.*** Konakana said: Angel's Egg is one of those rare gems. But is not for everybody.Show them like, Angel's Egg or something. Also not sure why so many fans of FMA and Evergarden.Two overrated shows |
| Do note that one need not get introduced to anime through said "great"/"cool"/acclaimed/etc. shows. Aside from anime in my childhood (which basically amount to watching Pokémon and Voltron and ignoring DBZ, Sailor Moon, YuGiOh, Cardcaptors, etc., and wanting to watch but missing Digimon), I got "introduced to anime" -- or more accurately in the case of four of these shows, I "introduced myself to anime" -- through roughly six shows (in basically this order, except Nanoha which I can't quite place relative to the others): * Neon Genesis Evangelion * Kiddy Grade * Stratos 4 * Rocket Girls * Sky Girls * Nanoha (first season) Of these, Evangelion is super-famous, Nanoha is pretty famous, but everything else is actually rather obscure. Furthermore, I... * had barely watched mecha shows before Evangelion, which I watched without knowing mecha tropes. * knew of but didn't watch Sailor Moon before Nanoha, which I watched without knowing magical girl tropes (or mecha tropes for that matter, as I hadn't watched Gundam, which Nanoha also draws on as inspiration). * went into this with an existing distaste for both "wacky anime humor" (e.g. Lucky Star and Excel Saga) and "power level stuff" (ostensibly DBZ but more generally just shounen stuff with more emphasis on action than adventure). * watched rather few series with common anime tropes. Only two of these six involve school settings, none of these are focused mainly on action, and they're all relatively light on fanservice, at most simply having attractive female characters in bodysuits, for example, and rarely going out of their way for fanservice. Only one is a comedy, and even then it's still a show whose story can be taken seriously; none of these are absurdist/exaggerated comedy or particularly exaggerated character tropes (nor are harem shows either). And all have primary protagonists that I generally find agreeable, personality-wise. Rather, what happened was that I basically got lucky and found a "starter niche" of several shows that suited my tastes, despite the fact that my tastes don't really line up with the usual anime tropes. (To be fair, I already had lots of contact with anime-style art, so I was already familiar with it, but it was mainly through video games.) But, basically, my point is that a person doesn't need to get into anime through the usual highly-recommended stuff. A person can get into anime simply by finding stuff that beelines to their taste. The one downside to this is that I can't expect to be able to talk to people about stuff I like. If I walk into an anime chat and say something about Evangelion, or Death Note, or Code Geass, or Naruto, vel sim., I can expect other people to have something to say. Can't do that with Kiddy Grade or Rocket Girls. A good lot of the people who have watched shows like those are people who have watched a ton of shows for which these shows are just one or two of sometimes thousands. But I've gotten used to it. I already don't watch seasonals so whatever. Besides, it's sometimes nicer to be in a quiet corner. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Manaban said: Vluddipijjun said: Why should we defend the tropes, exactly? If the goal is to bring outsiders in, wouldn't one be better off giving them good work that happens to be anime (like Bebop) rather than very anime work that happens to be good? I feel you'll have a lot easier time catching someone's imagination with potential than trying to assuage their distaste of anime's downsides. You cannot convince somebody to get into Dystopian Sci-Fi as a genre if you pick works to show them that skirt a lot of the shared setups, actions, and constructs found within these works. You cannot convince somebody to get into fantasy as a holistic entity by showing them something completely removed from its contemporaries as how they'll be touching base with the genre. The same is being applied to anime in this instance. Do we want to get them into one anime, or anime as a medium? If it's the latter that people going, showing them a work that's totally removed from the majority of its contemporaries is doing little more than giving them a false impression of what they'll be in for. They aren't getting into "anime." They're getting into an exception, something totally different from what they've established that they dislike. It barely does anything to show them the breadth of the medium as a whole, no matter how much they appreciate whatever show in question. Either that, or good luck trying to get somebody to cling to their distaste for tropes so heavily and then explore the medium with that pre-determination in mind. They'll be extremely limited from the outset because nobody tried to combat their closed-mindedness to these elements to ever approach them properly or in any way productive without just continuing down the same sort of path that people in this thread seem so fearful of. I'm with you. Seriously. Recommending series like Bebop is just plain stupid. Bepop doesn't represent anime at all. It's series created for westerners with western tropes, western story telling and wester character types. It's pointless recommending series like this. Anime is not about something like this. |
| As it depends on persons, I give stuffs like death note, Aot to friends, sao to my cousin sis and boku no p to the neighbour kids. |
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