Deathko said: @jal90 I'm having a hard time believing you're here since 2010 and say stuff like that. Remind me where were the dating VNs in the 90s, or wich massive waifu war happened in the 80s. I'm interested. I'm saying this as a seasonal watcher knowing that the waifu/best girl talk is contained to a few shows. Last year's winter for instance these discussions were monopolized by Darling in the FranXX, while there were plenty of other popular shows that generated other kinds of discussions. So no, you are not bringing an accurate representation of what the overall scope of anime delivers and inspires nowadays, just a cherrypick that was perhaps much more accurate when the fat and socially awkward nerd stereotypes weren't tired and were somewhat subversive instead of preachy and misrepresentative. |
| @jal90 Funny, I almost brought up Darling in the Franxxx but decided it'd pop up in the discussion on its own. And wich show was the most discussed and sparked the biggest mess last season? And if we go back before, wasn't the hottest conversation topic Re:Zero? The dakimakura/sexy figs business alone seems to indicate that you're in denial. I like to be aware of the kind of communities I step in. |
DeathkoApr 8, 2019 7:23 AM
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Deathko said: hahaha I wanna see seasonal watchers trying old anime and desperately searching for the best girl/waifu material.. Misa > Minmay but anime wasn't fetish material for lonely grown-ups back the Watch more older anime. |
syncrogazer said: but anime wasn't fetish material for lonely grown-ups back the Watch more older anime. Yeah, there are cringe things earlier on. I'm definitely lackluster when it comes to 70s anime, but some of the stuff I saw or read objectified women so hard and in such a casual way it was impossible to take seriously. Stuff like Cobra, Genshi Shounen Ryuu or what I read of Harlock. But Japan underwent a very late emancipation of women. There are very interesting authors depicting strong women in the 70s already, like Kazuo Kamimura. This said, the 80s and 90s stuff seems relatively free of this if you don't look for it. Even stuff like Golden Boy is a far cry from being offensive, unlike most of the airhead catmaids manga and anime spawned since. |
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| I do consider their air date before rating them. You just can't compare those 80's or 90's anime with the newer one and then expecting to get the same quality (animation-wise, art-wise, etc)(not saying the latter is always better though). It's fairer that way imo. But in the end, I rate everything based on my enjoyment, that's what clearly matters for me. |
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Deathko said: This said, the 80s and 90s stuff seems relatively free of this if you don't look for it. Well, yeah, if you don't look for it you'll never find anything. Go through the 90s, season by season, and you'll find plenty of what you call 'cringe.' |
syncrogazer said: Deathko said: This said, the 80s and 90s stuff seems relatively free of this if you don't look for it. Well, yeah, if you don't look for it you'll never find anything. Go through the 90s, season by season, and you'll find plenty of what you call 'cringe.' And is it a core component of the most popular shows like it's a core component of something like S;G? Or something you have to dig for? |
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| This is a pretty Meta topic when it comes to reviewing in general. Personally, I think you should strive for consistency in your style above anything else. For example, if you decide to rate Spirited Away based off of it's peers, meaning the shows that aired in it's same year, do that every time. Conversely, if you believe it's better to rate the medium off it's continual evolution, so you compare without that constraint, do so every time. |
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Deathko said: And is it a core component of the most popular shows like it's a core component of something like S;G? Or something you have to dig for? I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. We're talking thousands of anime between then and S;G, obviously some things had yet to creep in.Not to mention the predominance of shows for kids in the 70s and 80s. But that doesn't mean that anime older than 1995 was 'super serious animation for mature people like myself' either. Project A-Ko was parodying something and that was in 86. The 80s had moe even if we have to apply that term after the fact. Watch Otaku no Video for a lighthearted survey of the otaku culture of that time (1991). |
syncrogazerApr 8, 2019 8:03 AM
| @syncrogazer I think you misunderstood me. I never implied objectifying women was a sign of immaturity. It's just not my thing and a trend that definitely comes back full force in anime. The amount of "Western feminists are trying to ruin my japanese cartoons" users is a clear sign that something is definitely different and appealing to machists in modern anime. Will definitely watch Otaku no Video when I manage to watch anime again without falling back into depression. |
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| What perspective are you even talking about. The time frame is just one of many aspects that determine what you will encounter. Okay, don't expect digital animation in an old show in the same way you shouldn't expect cell animation from a current one because those techniques would be too expensive nowadays and most of that expertise has been lost. Part of that visual appeal can't be reproduced. Current attempts have included the use of hideous filters, or compressing and reupscaling the image to replicate some gritty old school feel. Yeah, no. For the major part though, I avoid overrating old stuff thanks to not applying current standards to them. |
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Deathko said: I think you misunderstood me. I never implied objectifying women was a sign of immaturity.. I never even knew that we were talking about any of these things, so... machists wut |
syncrogazer said: Deathko said: I think you misunderstood me. I never implied objectifying women was a sign of immaturity.. I never even knew that we were talking about any of these things, so... machists wut Yeah man, the thread has officially gone of the rails, but that's okay because train wrecks are fun to watch. |
It's not like I like anime or anything. |
Deathko said: like the cardboard waifu from very popular modern shows? OK, I admit that they weren't that front center in the past. Deathko said: Do you see very popular 80s or 90s anime filled with a cast of walking dolls like S;G? City Hunter comes to mind...but to be fair its "dolls" are mostly episodic characters. Yes, things change a bit with time but I don't see female characters being drastically written better in the past. Yes, the focus was in different direction but popular shows tend to be written badly (in all aspects) all the time. There are even examples of improvements like Yuki from the remake of Uchuu Senkan Yamato who is uncomparably better in Uchuu Senkan Yamato 2199 (also adding more female characters) ...but sadly downgraded in Uchuu Senkan Yamato 2202...everyone is downgraded there. |
alshuApr 8, 2019 8:22 AM
Deathko said: @jal90 Funny, I almost brought up Darling in the Franxxx but decided it'd pop up in the discussion on its own. And wich show was the most discussed and sparked the biggest mess last season? And if we go back before, wasn't the hottest conversation topic Re:Zero? The dakimakura/sexy figs business alone seems to indicate that you're in denial. I like to be aware of the kind of communities I step in. If we are talking about one show then perhaps you are not the one to tell me that I am in denial, particularly if we talk about a season that was unusually big in amount and variety of popular stuff. Winter 2018 had Violet Evergarden, Yuru Camp, Sora yori mo tooi basho, Pop Team Epic or Devilman: Crybaby as shows that were popular and generated a lot of talk, and these are just the ones I watched and was active enough on, I'm sure there are more examples. None of them ever generated a consistent stream of best girl and/or waifu threads, which was exclusive of Darling in the FranXX. You are the one overestimating the sample size these discussions represent based on how vitriolic and controversial they are, all while ignoring that these shows were equally if not more popular (all of them except Devilman: Crybaby if I remember correctly outsold DarliFra in Japan), and in the Western fandom all of them have been popular and talked about, with Pop Team Epic, Devilman: Crybaby and Violet Evergarden at the very least to the same degree if not more. I would be in denial if I didn't acknowledge the existence and popularity of waifu/best girl debates (and how heated they tend to be) but I'm not doing that. If anything the one in denial in this aspect appears to be you, who seemingly believe that everything the fandom talked about and watched that season was Zero Two vs Ichigo. A very popular discussion indeed, but not the only very popular discussion at the time. |
jal90 said: Winter 2018 had Violet Evergarden, Yuru Camp, Sora yori mo tooi basho, Pop Team Epic or Devilman: Crybaby as shows that were popular and generated a lot of talk, and these are just the ones I watched and was active enough on, I'm sure there are more examples. None of them ever generated a consistent stream of best girl and/or waifu threads, Naaah, Hinata is best girl man...  Would't call her submissive...she is the counterpoint of that. Also constant mixing best girls for waifus on internet is maybe the villain of this story. |
| Don't reallly care everyone already looks at a show differently anyway, new or old |
| poop |
alshu said: jal90 said: Winter 2018 had Violet Evergarden, Yuru Camp, Sora yori mo tooi basho, Pop Team Epic or Devilman: Crybaby as shows that were popular and generated a lot of talk, and these are just the ones I watched and was active enough on, I'm sure there are more examples. None of them ever generated a consistent stream of best girl and/or waifu threads, Naaah, Hinata is best girl man... Would't call her submissive...she is the counterpoint of that. Also constant mixing best girls for waifus on internet is maybe the villain of this story. All true, though Shirase was my fav. But Hinata is a close and worthy second. And yep, agreed about the distinction between best girl and waifu concepts, particularly when the term waifu is 90% of the time used ironically. The term best girl is super tame. It basically means favorite character in the cast. And I can't count the typical couple "best girl" threads every all-girl show inspires in MAL because there never even is an actual discussion in there and they are not really popular, they are just polls about which character is the favorite of the cast. Except if the show actively wants to feature a confrontation among these characters like DarliFra did, then controversy and harsh discussions arise. |
alshu said: Deathko said: like the cardboard waifu from very popular modern shows? OK, I admit that they weren't that front center in the past. Deathko said: Do you see very popular 80s or 90s anime filled with a cast of walking dolls like S;G? City Hunter comes to mind...but to be fair its "dolls" are mostly episodic characters. Yes, things change a bit with time but I don't see female characters being drastically written better in the past. Yes, the focus was in different direction but popular shows tend to be written badly (in all aspects) all the time. There are even examples of improvements like Yuki from the remake of Uchuu Senkan Yamato who is uncomparably better in Uchuu Senkan Yamato 2199 (also adding more female characters) ...but sadly downgraded in Uchuu Senkan Yamato 2202...everyone is downgraded there. I'd say part of the appeal of City Hunter is to see each episode's damsel in distress more or less defy the expectations of Ryo and the audience. From brats to criminals, they're hardly just here to be sexualized (sorry Ryo). They sure don't have very deep personalities, but considering they get between 10 to 30 mins of screentime, that's to be expected. |
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Deathko said: I'm having a hard time believing you're here since 2010 and say stuff like that. Remind me where were the dating VNs in the 90s, or wich massive waifu war happened in the 80s. I'm interested. I think JAST is releasing a new classics VN-collection soon. You might want to check it out. edit: trailer here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4Ueopbb5d8 (slight NSFW) |
mecharobotApr 8, 2019 8:48 AM
| I just rate old anime the same way as new series. Doesn't matter at all whether the anime is old or new, as long it's good I will watch it so my standard remain the same for all eras of anime. |
Papa_ScorchApr 8, 2019 8:51 AM
| Yes, lol. Enjoyment is a timeless factor. |
 "I am not sure that I exist, actually. I am all the writers that I have read, all the people that I have met, all the women that I have loved; all the cities I have visited." ― Jorge Luis Borges [url=]Goodreads[/url] | [url=]Letterboxd[/url] |
alshu said: Also constant mixing best girls for waifus on internet is maybe the villain of this story. I think the biggest problem is people only know how to understand anime through the lens of the Western meme machine. |
Deathko said: I'd say part of the appeal of City Hunter is to see each episode's damsel in distress more or less defy the expectations of Ryo and the audience. Ryo on the outside...but not actually because he always pretends to be dumber. Kaori is the one who is usually being played. The audience - naaah. |
| Of course? Unless a work is a direct product of its period and can't be understood without a context (which I can think of no anime that qualifies) fiction is fiction and should be judged upon the same standards. The only thing that might be considered is animation, but it goes without saying that you shouldn't judge an old anime because it has subpar animation just as you shouldn't judge an old movie for being black & white. |
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| I watch anime, movies, tv shows etc according to their ratings and age. Cuz most them don't age well, at present i'm watching animes of 2014/15. If you watch the newer one first then you wouldn't appreciate the older/original one. Also, animations/graphics matters to me. |
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14theparadox said: I watch anime, movies, tv shows etc according to their ratings and age. Cuz most them don't age well, at present i'm watching animes of 2014/15. If you watch the newer one first then you wouldn't appreciate the older/original one. Also, animations/graphics matters to me. For research purposes, are there any anime you think did age well? Akira maybe? |
It's not like I like anime or anything. |
Deathko said: Ehh, that's not really true though.hahaha I wanna see seasonal watchers trying old anime and desperately searching for the best girl/waifu material. -Sorry guys but anime wasn't fetish material for lonely grown-ups back then. |
CabronApr 8, 2019 12:59 PM
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
I didn't like Akira when I watched it 3 years ago but anime like Perfect Blue, Lain, Genocyber, Wicked City etc was a good watch. If you're interested in samurai stuff then you should watch Ninja Scroll. |
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| I have my own scale and yes it applies to everything anime, with the exclusion of hentai. |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
14theparadox said: I didn't like Akira when I watched it 3 years ago but anime like Perfect Blue, Lain, Genocyber, Wicked City etc was a good watch. If you're interested in samurai stuff then you should watch Ninja Scroll. Akira is pretty far out there, definitely not for everyone. Thanks for the recommendations. |
It's not like I like anime or anything. |
| I think good writing has always existed even to today's standards, even on the ground that it might be pretty basic. Much of it will be the source of cliches and THE STANDARD which if you've seen much of the predecessors you'll be kinda bored. But I do believe stuff stands as classics for a reason. Now do people have rose tinted glasses or scale back their score due to period bias, I wouldn't be shocked but your growth as a consumer will change your perception no matter what. |
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| I think whether or not it is important to keep in mind the time the anime was released, depending on how old it is, especially if you analyze the art and the animation technique although many (few) old animes do not age, but these are the exception but, personally speaking, I don't always need to remember the age of what I'm watching because animation is not always a big factor in my evaluations as long as the story is good; but not everyone works that way, so yes, as a "general rule" I think it's important to have the time-factor in mind |
| Yes. I judge every anime by their standards. If the collective presentation can convey certain feelings or emotions to me, it's good. In a way, timelessness is crucial to the survival of older animations. Some modern anime may age poorly sometimes, in memory, so I re-adjust my ratings. Industry standards are constantly changing though, so it's not feasible to rate by that. |
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Deathko said: Do you see very popular 80s or 90s anime filled with a cast of walking dolls like S;G? Don't you think you're treating a niche as if it was the bulk of the community? Sure, S;G is an otaku show and has a cast of otaku pandering stereotypes, but you know that's not the main reason people in the west like the show. If you look in retrospect, there's not that many anime that entered the mainstream whose waifu wars were a bigger topic of discussion than the show itself: from the top of my head I can only mention Re:Zero and Darling. Not a very impressive number, especially when Boku no Hero, which aired in the same season, is far more popular than Re:Zero (and alternatively, spawned a husbando war rather than a waifu one). Besides, if you look at any rank on MAL you'll see it dominated by shounens, dramas and thrillers, most of which are not centred around a cast of cardboard waifus as you say, nor fanservice, and the bulk of discussions are not centred around that either. There are a lot of harems, but not only they are not that popular, one of the most common opinions voiced among people who don't like harem is that they suck (with negative reviews always making the top), even if they haven't even watched it. While that's widespread through the anime community of Japan, it's hardly a vicious trend in the west, especially when we consider that not all anime fans really interact nor show their taste in online communities — in my experience, these people are strictly casual watchers that watch mainly the genres I said above, and would hardly even consider touching all the waifu discussion with a ten foot pole. Deathko said: The dakimakura/sexy figs business alone seems to indicate that you're in denial. I like to be aware of the kind of communities I step in. Again, a niche market. Most anime fans don't even collect anime figures, let alone dakimakuras and sexy figures. You're not wrong about being aware of that as you'll certainly find the people you described here, but I wonder if it is as pandemic as you say. |
Satyr_iconApr 8, 2019 3:40 PM
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Mythologically said: I don't really see a point to look at them from their time period. You're watching them right now, so you should judge them from the present time's point of view. ---------- simple but best answer. |
| :v |
| Age is typically irrelevant for me, I tend to rate off of my personal enjoyment and how much I cared about it. |
 |
| I judge them by the question "will I enjoy watching this or otherwise get something valuable out of it?" |
Satyr_icon said: Deathko said: Do you see very popular 80s or 90s anime filled with a cast of walking dolls like S;G? Don't you think you're treating a niche as if it was the bulk of the community? Sure, S;G is an otaku show and has a cast of otaku pandering stereotypes, but you know that's not the main reason people in the west like the show. If you look in retrospect, there's not that many anime that entered the mainstream whose waifu wars were a bigger topic of discussion than the show itself: from the top of my head I can only mention Re:Zero and Darling. Not a very impressive number, especially when Boku no Hero, which aired in the same season, is far more popular than Re:Zero (and alternatively, spawned a husbando war rather than a waifu one). I wonder what kind of other reason people would have to watch a harem filled with otaku pandering stereotypes and meta jokes about tsundere and traps. Funnily enough, the Monogatari steries is exactly the same, and they both avoid the harem tag here. Besides, if you look at any rank on MAL you'll see it dominated by shounens, dramas and thrillers, most of which are not centred around a cast of cardboard waifus as you say, nor fanservice, and the bulk of discussions are not centred around that either. There are a lot of harems, but not only they are not that popular, one of the most common opinions voiced among people who don't like harem is that they suck (with negative reviews always making the top), even if they haven't even watched it. While that's widespread through the anime community of Japan, it's hardly a vicious trend in the west, especially when we consider that not all anime fans really interact nor show their taste in online communities — in my experience, these people are strictly casual watchers that watch mainly the genres I said above, and would hardly even consider touching all the waifu discussion with a ten foot pole. But the top 50 characters seems to scream "only waifus are allowed here as far as females go" Again, a niche market. Most anime fans don't even collect anime figures, let alone dakimakuras and sexy figures. You're not wrong about being aware of that as you'll certainly find the people you described here, but I wonder if it is as pandemic as you say. Obviously I'm here to put oil on the fire, considering OP triggered me massively with his undercover "old anime are rated too high" thread. I still stand by my stance that shlock like Elfen Lied or S;G would have never been hits in the 80s or 90s. |
DeathkoApr 9, 2019 8:12 AM
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Deathko said: Besides, if you look at any rank on MAL you'll see it dominated by shounens, dramas and thrillers, most of which are not centred around a cast of cardboard waifus as you say, nor fanservice, and the bulk of discussions are not centred around that either. There are a lot of harems, but not only they are not that popular, one of the most common opinions voiced among people who don't like harem is that they suck (with negative reviews always making the top), even if they haven't even watched it. While that's widespread through the anime community of Japan, it's hardly a vicious trend in the west, especially when we consider that not all anime fans really interact nor show their taste in online communities — in my experience, these people are strictly casual watchers that watch mainly the genres I said above, and would hardly even consider touching all the waifu discussion with a ten foot pole. But the top 50 characters seems to scream "only waifus are allowed here as far as females go" Translation: you saw Rem, Kurisu and the Monogatari girls there and immediately ignored every other female character for the sake of your point. You should also stop using meme terms like they mean something. Any character can be a waifu or a husbando for some anon on the internet. And that includes your beloved oldie ladies. Deathko said: Again, a niche market. Most anime fans don't even collect anime figures, let alone dakimakuras and sexy figures. You're not wrong about being aware of that as you'll certainly find the people you described here, but I wonder if it is as pandemic as you say. Obviously I'm here to put oil on the fire, considering OP triggered me massively with his undercover "old anime are rated too high" thread. I still stand by my stance that shlock like Elfen Lied or S;G would have never been hits in the 80s or 90s. Elfen Lied aired in 2004 and is now regarded by many as exploitative trash. It was popular in the West because it was violent and edgy, same as so many shows across the decades. Funny that you mention the 80s or 90s with so much dumb exploitative shit they had as well. If this is trolling it's pretty bad. |
jal90Apr 9, 2019 10:25 AM
Deathko said: It would be nice if authors/creators took it back to how it was before.I wonder what kind of other reason people would have to watch a harem filled with otaku pandering stereotypes and meta jokes about tsundere and traps. Funnily enough, the Monogatari steries is exactly the same, and they both avoid the harem tag here. You know, when they actually gave the female(s) a reason to fall for the mc. Obviously I'm here to put oil on the fire, considering OP triggered me massively with his undercover "old anime are rated too high" thread. You either haven't seen enough from those eras or just pretending if you honestly believe that.I still stand by my stance that shlock like Elfen Lied or S;G would have never been hits in the 80s or 90s. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
| Simply: Yes. Old shows may not hold-up and that should reflect in their current scores. In my opinion, it's only inevitable that something better will come and dethrone the best of the best, since new stuff should improve on the missteps the old properties have done. |
| Welcome to club: Anime that Should Continue http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=37045 |
Deathko said: I wonder what kind of other reason people would have to watch a harem filled with otaku pandering stereotypes and meta jokes about tsundere and traps. Funnily enough, the Monogatari steries is exactly the same, and they both avoid the harem tag here. The time travel and wacky conspiratory thriller plot and the gradually maddening main character? I mean, if you don't like the series for those reasons it's fine, I also find that part of the show annoying nowadays, but you can't ignore the first season at least has an actual plot. If people just watched it for the grills, there's tons of anime with a way better female cast than it to occupy the second position on MAL, since all of them are the same with different wigs. Saying that sounds even silly. A lot of people even say they find the first 12 eps boring exactly because they're filled with otaku jokes. And yeah, Monogatari is a harem, but it's another anime that not everyone watches solely for the waifus. I for one always get annoyed when the show delves into pointless (and questionable) fanservice. Kaiki best girl btw. Deathko said: But the top 50 characters seems to scream "only waifus are allowed here as far as females go" Agreed, bar some of them, but then there's barely any of them outside of the genres I mentioned as well, so it's not like people are actively going after where the true waifu pandering is. Most of them are just cute girls that happened to be in the shows they usually watch. Also, it's somewhat telling that there are just two girls from arguably the most escapist and self-insertive genre nowadays (Rem and Megumin). Deathko said: Obviously I'm here to put oil on the fire, considering OP triggered me massively with his undercover "old anime are rated too high" thread. I still stand by my stance that shlock like Elfen Lied or S;G would have never been hits in the 80s or 90s. Elfen Lied is exactly the kind of thing I think would get popular in the 90s tbh. Maybe not the entry-level popularity it got nowadays, but the period was full of gorey and edgy anime, so I can easily imagine Elfen Lied stirring the pan with a cheesy gore anime (that is, if it wasn't just an ova as these usually were). S;G is a product of our time in more ways than just the female stereotypes, though, so imagining it just as is in the 90s would be anachronistic. If they adapted it, though, I also don't doubt it would get popular, especially if it aired after Evangelion. The problem is, all you're looking at is: these shows have cute girls so they obviously have no redeeming qualities. Try considering them a bit without that. |
Satyr_iconApr 9, 2019 11:35 AM
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Satyr_icon said: Elfen Lied is exactly the kind of thing I think would get popular in the 90s tbh. Maybe not the entry-level popularity it got nowadays, but the period was full of gorey and edgy anime, so I can easily imagine Elfen Lied stirring the pan with a cheesy gore anime (that is, if it wasn't just an ova as these usually were). S;G is a product of our time in more ways than just the female stereotypes, though, so imagining it just as is in the 90s would be anachronistic. If they adapted it, though, I also don't doubt it would get popular, especially if it aired after Evangelion. I would also like to add that something like Elfen Lied with its amounts of gore and nudity is something perhaps even more fit to the 80s and 90s than the current era of anime. The industry was more permissive back then with raunchy and highly explicit visuals. |
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