GlennMagusHarvey said: PsychoticDave said: So, essentially, you've declared yourself to be right, and everyone who disagrees with you to be stupid.Yeah, I noticed. A lot of stupid people agreeing doesn't change definitions and facts. Considering I'm strictly following the definition of Isekai, I am definitely right. You've yet to prove anything, just spouted off about how it feels like an isekai which doesn't mean shit. As I've said many times... Similarities are not confirmations. |
PsychoticDaveFeb 27, 2019 9:54 PM
FlagCrusherTaka said: PsychoticDave said: InuYasha is time travel, not isekai. Please don't do this. Overlord was pretty open in the first episode about it being an isekai. I don't get what you mean. Difference between Overlord and SAO is that in Overlord the game became real (like a bad rip off of Log Horizon) and in SAO, it's just a game the whole time. given the kind of tech that is used in the VR in that show, I think an equally plausible interpretation is that everything he witnesses is the result of a fever dream MC has while in a coma as he slowly starves to death in his apartment. Yeah, but the whole 'what if it's a coma the whole time' thing is dumb for anything because then there's literally no point to any of it, not that there was a point to Overlord to begin with... |
PsychoticDave said: You're strictly following the definition, but that leads you to a situation where you're basically saying that at least one and possibly series that codified the isekai genre aren't isekai, just because they don't fit your choice of extremely strict definition that requires no less than specifically a parallel universe situation.GlennMagusHarvey said: So, essentially, you've declared yourself to be right, and everyone who disagrees with you to be stupid. Considering I'm strictly following the definition of Isekai, I am definitely right. You've yet to prove anything, just spouted off how it feels like an isekai which doesn't mean shit. There is nothing to "prove". It is simply a matter of where the lines are drawn. Your choice of lines, however, miss a big part of the picture. Perhaps you find your lines useful, but I don't, and I'm not alone in that regard. The way you're going about this, asking me to "prove" something and claiming to be "right", tells me that you don't understand that these lines are ultimately arbitrary. You seem to think that there is one ultimate indisputable truth to it, when there is not. As I mentioned multiple times before, we're essentially using two different ideas of what isekai means. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
PsychoticDave said: FlagCrusherTaka said: given the kind of tech that is used in the VR in that show, I think an equally plausible interpretation is that everything he witnesses is the result of a fever dream MC has while in a coma as he slowly starves to death in his apartment. Yeah, but the whole 'what if it's a coma the whole time' thing is dumb for anything because then there's literally no point to any of it, not that there was a point to Overlord to begin with... The point being is that, if one is interpretation is true, it suddenly isn't isekai anymore by your definition despite looking, sounding, and feeling like an isekai. It goes to the point I am making about the flawed nature of your overly-specific definition. It's kind of like, to make another film comparison, saying that neo-noirs aren't Noirs because they weren't released in the 40s or 50s. Its pedantic and doesn't really help with anything, especially considering that the function of genres is to more easily curate and comment on content that is similar in nature. |
| isekai = "being transported to, reborn or trapped in a parallel universe" isekai is not limited to game worlds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isekai I have very little knowledge about SAO, but the story shares aspects that could define it as an isekai-- like the "trapped in a parallel universe" part. From my knowledge, part of the beginning story is actually about how him and a bunch of people are stuck in their new world. idk about the rest of the story. while yes, I'd want to say a drug trip could be an isekai, I don't think it is. I don't think isekais include dream worlds |
| @GlennMagusHarvey First of all, I apologize for the insult. Entirely unnecessary. Situation time. MC becomes an astronaut. MC ends up stranded on planet 'Bumfuck, Nowhere' and has to survive on an uncharted planet. Is it isakei even though the character started on Earth and used Earthly methods to get to said planet? If not, how is SAO isekai? If so, please explain. |
FlagCrusherTaka said: Essentially this.Its pedantic and doesn't really help with anything, especially considering that the function of genres is to more easily curate and comment on content that is similar in nature. You can create as strict or as loose a definition as you want, but it's not necessarily going to be useful. And it's important to remember that different definitions may be useful for different purposes. It's like how a lot of people count RWBY as an anime but a lot of anime listing sites don't, only because it's more useful for listing sites to draw the line to exclude it (because this means they don't have to judge things based on art style but have an easy objective measure in country of origin), while in contrast it's more useful for (for example) anime conventions to point out that a voice actor has worked on RWBY as a notable role in their portfolio. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: FlagCrusherTaka said: Essentially this.Its pedantic and doesn't really help with anything, especially considering that the function of genres is to more easily curate and comment on content that is similar in nature. You can create as strict or as loose a definition as you want, but it's not necessarily going to be useful. And it's important to remember that different definitions may be useful for different purposes. It's like how a lot of people count RWBY as an anime but a lot of anime listing sites don't, only because it's more useful for listing sites to draw the line to exclude it (because this means they don't have to judge things based on art style but have an easy objective measure in country of origin), while in contrast it's more useful for (for example) anime conventions to point out that a voice actor has worked on RWBY as a notable role in their portfolio. If this is your answer to the situation I just posted, I'd like an actual answer. Because it's basically the exact same thing. |
PsychoticDave said: @GlennMagusHarvey First of all, I apologize for the insult. Entirely unnecessary. Situation time. MC becomes an astronaut. MC ends up stranded on planet 'Bumfuck, Nowhere' and has to survive on an uncharted planet. Is it isakei even though the character started on Earth and used Earthly methods to get to said planet? If not, how is SAO isekai? If so, please explain. Dos the astronaut have his abilities displayed through some weird video game-esq skill tree? Does the planet have fantasy races like elves, dwarves, goblins, etc... Does the planet have some other type of energy source (magic) that they use to power stuff? Any of these questions would be more useful in defining whether it fits in the modern parlance of isekai than "is it another world?" Again this goes back to the point about genre. Depending on how that anime idea you described is scripted and plaid out, it could be a horror, a comedy, a sci-fi, hell even a romance. I would thus argue that the "another worldiness" of this world he finds himself on isn't that important to the question of "be this isekai?" |
FlagCrusherTaka said: PsychoticDave said: @GlennMagusHarvey First of all, I apologize for the insult. Entirely unnecessary. Situation time. MC becomes an astronaut. MC ends up stranded on planet 'Bumfuck, Nowhere' and has to survive on an uncharted planet. Is it isakei even though the character started on Earth and used Earthly methods to get to said planet? If not, how is SAO isekai? If so, please explain. Dos the astronaut have his abilities displayed through some weird video game-esq skill tree? Does the planet have fantasy races like elves, dwarves, goblins, etc... Does the planet have some other type of energy source (magic) that they use to power stuff? Any of these questions would be more useful in defining whether it fits in the modern parlance of isekai than "is it another world?" Again this goes back to the point about genre. Depending on how that anime idea you described is scripted and plaid out, it could be a horror, a comedy, a sci-fi, hell even a romance. I would thus argue that the "another worldiness" of this world he finds himself on isn't that important to the question of "be this isekai?" The astronaut has just as many abilities as Kirito's unconscious body. The world is too dark to see. No sun near-by. Everything is unknown. No source of light. Fucked up during the crash / power supply ran out / dropped it and it floated away / whatever. P-Edit: I just realized Dragon Ball Super is an isekai because they literally go to parallel universes. Crazy. |
PsychoticDaveFeb 27, 2019 10:19 PM
PsychoticDave said: Whether people regard it as isekai would likely depend on how that story is written.@GlennMagusHarvey First of all, I apologize for the insult. Entirely unnecessary. Situation time. MC becomes an astronaut. MC ends up stranded on planet 'Bumfuck, Nowhere' and has to survive on an uncharted planet. Is it isakei even though the character started on Earth and used Earthly methods to get to said planet? If not, how is SAO isekai? If so, please explain. If the story focused on the journey to get their, and/or how he survives there and how he uses the Earth technologies he has to survive, it'd probably be regarded as a sci-fi story. If the story focused on how he discovers a fantastical world and has a really interesting adventure there, isekai would be a more likely bet. The gist of this "isekai" trope -- the kind of thing people are looking for when they talk about isekai -- is some sort of escapist adventure, and the trope lets the story jump into the adventure quickly by setting up a connection to the real world and providing some sort of mechanism for said escapist adventure to commence. Honestly, it really doesn't matter whether SAO is or isn't an isekai anyway. Every genre definition has its odd cases. It's simply that "isekai" is commonly used as a label for this pool of recent shows that SAO inspired one way or another, and so people typically find it useful to use the term to refer to their progenitor too, because it's essentially a model summarizing a certain set of expectations about what a story will be like. To be fair, something like Re:Zero is a better model, though that's less because of the in-universe mechanism for dimensional transport and more because it's a full-fledged fantasy world rather than a temporary virtual world in a videogame. Also, Re:Zero came well after SAO and others started codifying the genre. So whatever. And someone else at some point is gonna come up with some sort of weird genre mixture anyway, and these arguments will happen again. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
PsychoticDave said: this sounds more like people would just call it sci-fi horrorThe astronaut has just as many abilities as Kirito's unconscious body. The world is too dark to see. No sun near-by. Everything is unknown. No source of light. Fucked up during the crash / power supply ran out / dropped it and it floated away / whatever. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: PsychoticDave said: this sounds more like people would just call it sci-fi horrorThe astronaut has just as many abilities as Kirito's unconscious body. The world is too dark to see. No sun near-by. Everything is unknown. No source of light. Fucked up during the crash / power supply ran out / dropped it and it floated away / whatever. SAO is kinda just a sci-fi horror too though. |
PsychoticDave said: FlagCrusherTaka said: Dos the astronaut have his abilities displayed through some weird video game-esq skill tree? Does the planet have fantasy races like elves, dwarves, goblins, etc... Does the planet have some other type of energy source (magic) that they use to power stuff? Any of these questions would be more useful in defining whether it fits in the modern parlance of isekai than "is it another world?" Again this goes back to the point about genre. Depending on how that anime idea you described is scripted and plaid out, it could be a horror, a comedy, a sci-fi, hell even a romance. I would thus argue that the "another worldiness" of this world he finds himself on isn't that important to the question of "be this isekai?" The astronaut has just as many abilities as Kirito's unconscious body. The world is too dark to see. No sun near-by. Everything is unknown. No source of light. Fucked up during the crash / power supply ran out / dropped it and it floated away / whatever. Depending on the form again you could have anything from a grittier anime version of "Pitch Black" to a "Castaway: but in space" story. I'm a bit confused though, because I don't see how this hypothetical at all applies to the discussion about SAO. You are pitching something with none of the forms or traping of an isekai and expecting me to argue that it is one. My whole point, however, has been that there are more things that make a modern isekai an isekai than just "is it another world?" So I don't really see how this example goes against the points I have been making at all. I mean if you had done something like "imagine planet of the apes but an anime," you might have a point since the big spoiler on that was that it was the same world. But even with that example that better favors your argument, I would still classify it as isekai, just one that happens to play with/invert the tropes more so than standard isekais do. |
FlagCrusherTaka said: PsychoticDave said: The astronaut has just as many abilities as Kirito's unconscious body. The world is too dark to see. No sun near-by. Everything is unknown. No source of light. Fucked up during the crash / power supply ran out / dropped it and it floated away / whatever. Depending on the form again you could have anything from a grittier anime version of "Pitch Black" to a "Castaway: but in space" story. I'm a bit confused though, because I don't see how this hypothetical at all applies to the discussion about SAO. You are pitching something with none of the forms or traping of an isekai and expecting me to argue that it is one. My whole point, however, has been that there are more things that make a modern isekai an isekai than just "is it another world?" So I don't really see how this example goes against the points I have been making at all. I mean if you had done something like "imagine planet of the apes but an anime," you might have a point since the big spoiler on that was that it was the same world. But even with that example that better favors your argument, I would still classify it as isekai, just one that happens to play with/invert the tropes more so than standard isekais do. One person left Earth and ended up on an unknown planet. The other left their room and slept in a hospital. How is the place down the street more isekai than an unknown planet? He's literally just playing a game. That's like doing acid and believing you're in a different world but you're really just covered up petting a cat. It's not the same as actually being transported into the game. The game stayed a normal game. It's similar though. In both Log Horizon and Overlord, once it happened the game changed too and became real. Even NPCs. SAO was just a game the entire time. Not even a world. Just a game. Just like Skyrim VR. |
PsychoticDave said: Perhaps yeah.GlennMagusHarvey said: this sounds more like people would just call it sci-fi horror SAO is kinda just a sci-fi horror too though. The applicability of genre labels isn't really a black-and-white thing anyway. Nor is there anything saying that a story can't have multiple genre labels. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
PsychoticDave said: FlagCrusherTaka said: Depending on the form again you could have anything from a grittier anime version of "Pitch Black" to a "Castaway: but in space" story. I'm a bit confused though, because I don't see how this hypothetical at all applies to the discussion about SAO. You are pitching something with none of the forms or traping of an isekai and expecting me to argue that it is one. My whole point, however, has been that there are more things that make a modern isekai an isekai than just "is it another world?" So I don't really see how this example goes against the points I have been making at all. I mean if you had done something like "imagine planet of the apes but an anime," you might have a point since the big spoiler on that was that it was the same world. But even with that example that better favors your argument, I would still classify it as isekai, just one that happens to play with/invert the tropes more so than standard isekais do. One person left Earth and ended up on an unknown planet. The other left their room and slept in a hospital. How is the place down the street more isekai than an unknown planet? He's literally just playing a game. That's like doing acid and believing you're in a different world but you're really just covered up petting a cat. It's not the same as actually being transported into the game. The game stayed a normal game. It's similar though. Again though by your logic this also disqualifies Overlord since it isn't clear in that show whether he actually went to another world or not. It's almost as if genres are defined more by a set of tropes, conventions, and story-telling styles than by a singular irrelevant point regarding how exactly the setting changes in act one of the story. |
FlagCrusherTaka said: My understanding is that @PsychoticDave's definition of isekai is that it's not a broader genre label but simply a "if it has X it fits in this category" where X is "transported to parallel universe", and "parallel universe" is defined as something that the characters in-universe would consider a parallel universe or alternate world of some sort (rather than what we as viewers might see it as).PsychoticDave said: One person left Earth and ended up on an unknown planet. The other left their room and slept in a hospital. How is the place down the street more isekai than an unknown planet? He's literally just playing a game. That's like doing acid and believing you're in a different world but you're really just covered up petting a cat. It's not the same as actually being transported into the game. The game stayed a normal game. It's similar though. Again though by your logic this also disqualifies Overlord since it isn't clear in that show whether he actually went to another world or not. It's almost as if genres are defined more by a set of tropes, conventions, and story-telling styles than by a singular irrelevant point regarding how exactly the setting changes in act one of the story. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: FlagCrusherTaka said: My understanding is that @PsychoticDave's definition of isekai is that it's not a broader genre label but simply a "if it has X it fits in this category" where X is "transported to parallel universe", and "parallel universe" is defined as something that the characters in-universe would consider a parallel universe or alternate world of some sort (rather than what we as viewers might see it as).Again though by your logic this also disqualifies Overlord since it isn't clear in that show whether he actually went to another world or not. It's almost as if genres are defined more by a set of tropes, conventions, and story-telling styles than by a singular irrelevant point regarding how exactly the setting changes in act one of the story. I get that, and what I'm trying to do (maybe not as successfully as I'd hope) is expose the flaws in that argument. To go back to the astronaut example. Let's say the astronaut goes through a wormhole or something, and when he crash lands on the planet it is full of life (instead of barren). But MC soon finds out that this other world is quite different from his own. Demi-humans with the power of magic have dominated the human population (who are thought to be illiterate in magic) and made them slaves. MC eventually learns humans can learn magic, levels up his skill tree, and leads a revolt. Then let's say, for the sake of drama, the revolt fails and he finds himself on the run. and while on the run, in the season finale, he finds a broken statue of liberty and realizes that this isn't another world after all, but instead an earth in the distant future. Based on said plot summary, most everyone would assume it is isekai until the very last episode, at which point threads would go up all over the place arguing "isekai or nisekai". What i argue that is that the status of this other world, and just how other it is, is irrelevant. The anime, throughout the season, proceeded as if it was an isekai. And the ending, therefore, is more of a meta-textual commentary on what makes an isekai than anything else... But does that make it any less deserving of the title. I would thus argue that SAO is in a similar category. Even though it doesn't conform perfectly to some of the conventions of the genre, since it was instrumental in developing some of the other tropes within the genre (that are now pretty much standard), it should be counted as well. |
FlagCrusherTaka said: GlennMagusHarvey said: My understanding is that @PsychoticDave's definition of isekai is that it's not a broader genre label but simply a "if it has X it fits in this category" where X is "transported to parallel universe", and "parallel universe" is defined as something that the characters in-universe would consider a parallel universe or alternate world of some sort (rather than what we as viewers might see it as). I get that, and what I'm trying to do (maybe not as successfully as I'd hope) is expose the flaws in that argument. To go back to the astronaut example. Let's say the astronaut goes through a wormhole or something, and when he crash lands on the planet it is full of life (instead of barren). But MC soon finds out that this other world is quite different from his own. Demi-humans with the power of magic have dominated the human population (who are thought to be illiterate in magic) and made them slaves. MC eventually learns humans can learn magic, levels up his skill tree, and leads a revolt. Then let's say, for the sake of drama, the revolt fails and he finds himself on the run. and while on the run, in the season finale, he finds a broken statue of liberty and realizes that this isn't another world after all, but instead an earth in the distant future. Based on said plot summary, most everyone would assume it is isekai until the very last episode, at which point threads would go up all over the place arguing "isekai or nisekai". What i argue that is that the status of this other world, and just how other it is, is irrelevant. The anime, throughout the season, proceeded as if it was an isekai. And the ending, therefore, is more of a meta-textual commentary on what makes an isekai than anything else... But does that make it any less deserving of the title. I would thus argue that SAO is in a similar category. Even though it doesn't conform perfectly to some of the conventions of the genre, since it was instrumental in developing some of the other tropes within the genre (that are now pretty much standard), it should be counted as well. So like how InuYasha seems like an Isekai at first. Because it was discovered to be time travel, it's not isekai anymore. A red herring is what that would be called, I guess. Faking a genre for a plot twist is different from actually being the genre. |
PsychoticDave said: FlagCrusherTaka said: I get that, and what I'm trying to do (maybe not as successfully as I'd hope) is expose the flaws in that argument. To go back to the astronaut example. Let's say the astronaut goes through a wormhole or something, and when he crash lands on the planet it is full of life (instead of barren). But MC soon finds out that this other world is quite different from his own. Demi-humans with the power of magic have dominated the human population (who are thought to be illiterate in magic) and made them slaves. MC eventually learns humans can learn magic, levels up his skill tree, and leads a revolt. Then let's say, for the sake of drama, the revolt fails and he finds himself on the run. and while on the run, in the season finale, he finds a broken statue of liberty and realizes that this isn't another world after all, but instead an earth in the distant future. Based on said plot summary, most everyone would assume it is isekai until the very last episode, at which point threads would go up all over the place arguing "isekai or nisekai". What i argue that is that the status of this other world, and just how other it is, is irrelevant. The anime, throughout the season, proceeded as if it was an isekai. And the ending, therefore, is more of a meta-textual commentary on what makes an isekai than anything else... But does that make it any less deserving of the title. I would thus argue that SAO is in a similar category. Even though it doesn't conform perfectly to some of the conventions of the genre, since it was instrumental in developing some of the other tropes within the genre (that are now pretty much standard), it should be counted as well. So like how InuYasha seems like an Isekai at first. Because it was discovered to be time travel, it's not isekai anymore. A red herring is what that would be called, I guess. well that and inuyasha came around before isekai as a term was really a thing, but yeah. in my hypothetical, both your argument and mine would hold water. In a technical and literal sense, it wouldn't be an isekai. but at the same time, it would be clearly playing with the tropes within the isekai genre (red herring being a very applicable term). I guess I would say is my hypothetical works more in terms of the genre conventions than the literal sense of the genre. If that conveys, even a little bit, the malleable nature of genres, than I shall consider my job done and retire from this argument for the night. It was fun talking with you all though @PsychoticDave & @GlennMagusHarvey so have a good evening. |
FlagCrusherTaka said: PsychoticDave said: So like how InuYasha seems like an Isekai at first. Because it was discovered to be time travel, it's not isekai anymore. A red herring is what that would be called, I guess. well that and inuyasha came around before isekai as a term was really a thing, but yeah. in my hypothetical, both your argument and mine would hold water. In a technical and literal sense, it wouldn't be an isekai. but at the same time, it would be clearly playing with the tropes within the isekai genre (red herring being a very applicable term). I guess I would say is my hypothetical works more in terms of the genre conventions than the literal sense of the genre. If that conveys, even a little bit, the malleable nature of genres, than I shall consider my job done and retire from this argument for the night. It was fun talking with you all though @PsychoticDave & @GlennMagusHarvey so have a good evening. I understand and agree with most of what you say, but I still don't agree with SAO being isekai. Especially when it has an actual isekai arc to compare it to. He didn't go anywhere. He just played a realistic game on Nerve Gear, which utilizes nerves and brain waves to simulate senses for you and your movement and actions within the game. That being explained in SAO means it's not an isekai because he's literally laying in bed playing a game where your thoughts are the controller. We just see his point of view like a Let's Play. |
| He's stuck in the world of the VR game for 2 years it's an isekai boi. Dude uses wikipedia definition but that same page agrees with SAO being isekai, CUZ IT IS. Just like reincarnation and transportation are isekai tropes, trapped in a game is too. SAO just did it with a new take on it, even if it's garbage. @PsychoticDave |
| poop |
Esquirtit said: He's stuck in the world of the VR game for 2 years it's an isekai boi. Dude uses wikipedia definition but that same page agrees with SAO being isekai, CUZ IT IS. Just like reincarnation and transportation are isekai tropes, trapped in a game is too. SAO just did it with a new take on it, even if it's garbage. @PsychoticDave Just because he's stuck, that doesn't make it isekai. No transportation happened. He's literally still in bed playing the game in his head. Plus not even trapped for half the season. To be fair, he was never trapped. He could always get out. Just beat the game. So it fails all definitions. That's like being in an Escape The Room and being trapped but the key is like right there, just grab it. |
PsychoticDaveFeb 27, 2019 11:47 PM
EndlessMaria said: Monster Rancher was the best isekai. This title goes to digimon adventure. |
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PsychoticDave said: But who told you that a physical transportation has to happen for it to be considered an isekai. Now you are saying he's not even trapped, just because there is a solution to geting out doesn't mean he wasnt initially trapped that's not even up to debate wtfEsquirtit said: He's stuck in the world of the VR game for 2 years it's an isekai boi. Dude uses wikipedia definition but that same page agrees with SAO being isekai, CUZ IT IS. Just like reincarnation and transportation are isekai tropes, trapped in a game is too. SAO just did it with a new take on it, even if it's garbage. @PsychoticDave Just because he's stuck, that doesn't make it isekai. No transportation happened. He's literally still in bed playing the game in his head. Plus not even trapped for half the season. To be fair, he was never trapped. He could always get out. Just beat the game. So it fails all definitions. That's like being in an Escape The Room and being trapped but the key is like right there, just grab it. |
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Esquirtit said: PsychoticDave said: But who told you that a physical transportation has to happen for it to be considered an isekai. Now you are saying he's not even trapped, just because there is a solution to geting out doesn't mean he wasnt initially trapped that's not even up to debate wtfJust because he's stuck, that doesn't make it isekai. No transportation happened. He's literally still in bed playing the game in his head. Plus not even trapped for half the season. To be fair, he was never trapped. He could always get out. Just beat the game. So it fails all definitions. That's like being in an Escape The Room and being trapped but the key is like right there, just grab it. He wasn't transported at all. In any way. He's literally playing a VR game that uses brain waves. Trapped means no exit. If there's an exit, you're not trapped. Just leave. The path may be a little fucked, but there's still an exit. If you're in an elevator and it falls and you somehow survive, you're trapped in the elevator unless you get outside help. Kirito can just beat the game to leave. Therefore, he was never really trapped. Just inconvenienced. |
PsychoticDave said: it took 2 years to beat the game, they were trapped for 2 years. they didnt have the freedom to log out it's as simple as that but you like to male up irrational definitions of words I guess SAO IS ISEKAI JAPAN CONSIDERS IT ISEKAI AND WE FILTHY WEEBS HAVE NO CHOICE WE MUST AGREE OR LORD WEEEABO WILL END US ALLEsquirtit said: But who told you that a physical transportation has to happen for it to be considered an isekai. Now you are saying he's not even trapped, just because there is a solution to geting out doesn't mean he wasnt initially trapped that's not even up to debate wtf He wasn't transported at all. In any way. He's literally playing a VR game that uses brain waves. Trapped means no exit. If there's an exit, you're not trapped. Just leave. The path may be a little fucked, but there's still an exit. If you're in an elevator and it falls and you somehow survive, you're trapped in the elevator unless you get outside help. Kirito can just beat the game to leave. Therefore, he was never really trapped. Just inconvenienced. |
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Esquirtit said: PsychoticDave said: it took 2 years to beat the game, they were trapped for 2 years. they didnt have the freedom to log out it's as simple as that but you like to male up irrational definitions of words I guess SAO IS ISEKAI JAPAN CONSIDERS IT ISEKAI AND WE FILTHY WEEBS HAVE NO CHOICE WE MUST AGREE OR LORD WEEEABO WILL END US ALLHe wasn't transported at all. In any way. He's literally playing a VR game that uses brain waves. Trapped means no exit. If there's an exit, you're not trapped. Just leave. The path may be a little fucked, but there's still an exit. If you're in an elevator and it falls and you somehow survive, you're trapped in the elevator unless you get outside help. Kirito can just beat the game to leave. Therefore, he was never really trapped. Just inconvenienced. I still stand by my statement that he was never trapped. I'd like a source of Japan considering it Isekai. |
PsychoticDaveFeb 28, 2019 1:26 AM
PsychoticDave said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isekai under Isekai Series, I dont read japanese so couldnt find a more reliable sourceEsquirtit said: it took 2 years to beat the game, they were trapped for 2 years. they didnt have the freedom to log out it's as simple as that but you like to male up irrational definitions of words I guess SAO IS ISEKAI JAPAN CONSIDERS IT ISEKAI AND WE FILTHY WEEBS HAVE NO CHOICE WE MUST AGREE OR LORD WEEEABO WILL END US ALL I'd like a source of Japan considering it Isekai. @PsychoticDave that's fine that probably makes you the first person ever to not even understand a dumb show like SAO lmao. how are they not trapped if they cant log out it's literally the premise of the show you weird illogical being |
EsquirtitFeb 28, 2019 2:05 AM
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Esquirtit said: PsychoticDave said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isekai under Isekai Series, I dont read japanese so couldnt find a more reliable sourceI'd like a source of Japan considering it Isekai. @PsychoticDave that's fine that probably makes you the first person ever to not even understand a dumb show like SAO lmao. how are they not trapped if they cant log out it's literally the premise of the show you weird illogical being Imagine being trapped in a coffin, buried. Metal fancy one. You're trapped. Completely and utterly fucked. In the game, you can just beat it. Like Kirito said, a lot of people gave up off top and lived in Spawn. If everyone worked together game would have been beaten in far less then a year. I'd say like 3 months max. They could just beat the game. It's like drowning in a kiddie pool when you can just stand up. It really seemed like most people didn't even want out. |
GoldObserver said: (yep one of these) So in a thread recently, guys were talking about the whole whether or not Sword Art Online is an Isekai or not. I tend to think not. I thought about why i came down on this side of the fence and got into a load of perception based stuff. The game worlds in the series' are seen as seperate realities by some veiwers despite being virtual worlds. Isn't VR and augmented reality technology an attempt to change our perceptions of the world around us? Isn't the whole "VR dive" stuff just a super advanced way of tricking the conscious brain into thinking its somewhere else? If thats true would a super drug trip story be considered to be an isekai if the individual believed they were in a different world? What about if the character had a mental breakdown and thought the same? Even just sat of a bench daydreaming, same thing? I dunno, just wondering if anyone else had thought of it this way. (plz dont hurt me i dont post often) Yeah, I think in the same way. Sword Art Online is just being set in games, and not in a different dimension. The series in Isekai Quartet are examples of true Isekai anime. |
ColtBuntlineFeb 28, 2019 2:51 AM
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
PsychoticDave said: Esquirtit said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isekai under Isekai Series, I dont read japanese so couldnt find a more reliable source @PsychoticDave that's fine that probably makes you the first person ever to not even understand a dumb show like SAO lmao. how are they not trapped if they cant log out it's literally the premise of the show you weird illogical being Imagine being trapped in a coffin, buried. Metal fancy one. You're trapped. Completely and utterly fucked. In the game, you can just beat it. Like Kirito said, a lot of people gave up off top and lived in Spawn. If everyone worked together game would have been beaten in far less then a year. I'd say like 3 months max. They could just beat the game. It's like drowning in a kiddie pool when you can just stand up. It really seemed like most people didn't even want out. PsychoticDave said: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.collinsdictionary.com/amp/english/trappedEsquirtit said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isekai under Isekai Series, I dont read japanese so couldnt find a more reliable source @PsychoticDave that's fine that probably makes you the first person ever to not even understand a dumb show like SAO lmao. how are they not trapped if they cant log out it's literally the premise of the show you weird illogical being Imagine being trapped in a coffin, buried. Metal fancy one. You're trapped. Completely and utterly fucked. In the game, you can just beat it. Like Kirito said, a lot of people gave up off top and lived in Spawn. If everyone worked together game would have been beaten in far less then a year. I'd say like 3 months max. They could just beat the game. It's like drowning in a kiddie pool when you can just stand up. It really seemed like most people didn't even want out. if you reply with BUT THEY WERE ABLE TO ESCAPE yes but not in one day it took 2 years so what if some people didnt want to leave or work together that doesnt change the fact that kirito was trapped for 2 years and hes the MC idk what you're smoking |
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Esquirtit said: PsychoticDave said: Imagine being trapped in a coffin, buried. Metal fancy one. You're trapped. Completely and utterly fucked. In the game, you can just beat it. Like Kirito said, a lot of people gave up off top and lived in Spawn. If everyone worked together game would have been beaten in far less then a year. I'd say like 3 months max. They could just beat the game. It's like drowning in a kiddie pool when you can just stand up. It really seemed like most people didn't even want out. PsychoticDave said: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.collinsdictionary.com/amp/english/trappedImagine being trapped in a coffin, buried. Metal fancy one. You're trapped. Completely and utterly fucked. In the game, you can just beat it. Like Kirito said, a lot of people gave up off top and lived in Spawn. If everyone worked together game would have been beaten in far less then a year. I'd say like 3 months max. They could just beat the game. It's like drowning in a kiddie pool when you can just stand up. It really seemed like most people didn't even want out. if you reply with BUT THEY WERE ABLE TO ESCAPE yes but not in one day it took 2 years so what if some people didnt want to leave or work together that doesnt change the fact that kirito was trapped for 2 years and hes the MC idk what you're smoking They weren't trapped because there was always a way out. The big fucker in the sky literally told them how to get out episode 1. |
| Yes it's an isekai they don't have to be teleported to another world to be an isekai, they just need to be able to die for real, i think the fact that they can die for real is the deal breaker here, otherwise it wouldn't be an isekai. I might be wrong thou that's my shallow point of view someone correct me if you think otherwise. |
''Enemies' gifts are no gifts and do no good.'' |
| Digimon Adventure is isekai btw. It is a kids' anime, but it counts. |
| Welcome to club: Anime that Should Continue http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=37045 |
Fate_Saber88 said: Yes it's an isekai they don't have to be teleported to another world to be an isekai, they just need to be able to die for real, i think the fact that they can die for real is the deal breaker here, otherwise it wouldn't be an isekai. I might be wrong thou that's my shallow point of view someone correct me if you think otherwise. Re:Zero's guy can't die for real. He just checkpoints. Dying is unnecessary. Overlord is basically immortal too. |
PsychoticDave said: You dirty troll, how was there ''always'' a way out? Beating the game took 2 years, in other words it took 2 years to get out how do you not understand that or refuse to fucking troll. Esquirtit said: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.collinsdictionary.com/amp/english/trapped if you reply with BUT THEY WERE ABLE TO ESCAPE yes but not in one day it took 2 years so what if some people didnt want to leave or work together that doesnt change the fact that kirito was trapped for 2 years and hes the MC idk what you're smoking They weren't trapped because there was always a way out. The big fucker in the sky literally told them how to get out episode 1. Your example: If you're in an elevator and it falls and you somehow survive, you're trapped in the elevator unless you get outside help. Just change ''unless you get outside help'' with ''unless you beat the game'' it's that simple ffs |
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Esquirtit said: PsychoticDave said: You dirty troll, how was there ''always'' a way out? Beating the game took 2 years, in other words it took 2 years to get out how do you not understand that or refuse to fucking troll. They weren't trapped because there was always a way out. The big fucker in the sky literally told them how to get out episode 1. Your example: If you're in an elevator and it falls and you somehow survive, you're trapped in the elevator unless you get outside help. Just change ''unless you get outside help'' with ''unless you beat the game'' it's that simple ffs Someone outside the game can't beat it for you. Someone outside the elevator can find a way to get you out. Completely different. |
PsychoticDave said: The point is that you're trapped until you can get out. In sao it took 2 years until they were able to get out so they were trapped for 2 years not that hard to understand is itEsquirtit said: You dirty troll, how was there ''always'' a way out? Beating the game took 2 years, in other words it took 2 years to get out how do you not understand that or refuse to fucking troll. Your example: If you're in an elevator and it falls and you somehow survive, you're trapped in the elevator unless you get outside help. Just change ''unless you get outside help'' with ''unless you beat the game'' it's that simple ffs Someone outside the game can't beat it for you. Someone outside the elevator can find a way to get you out. Completely different. |
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Esquirtit said: PsychoticDave said: The point is that you're trapped until you can get out. In sao it took 2 years until they were able to get out so they were trapped for 2 years not that hard to understand is itSomeone outside the game can't beat it for you. Someone outside the elevator can find a way to get you out. Completely different. No, it's not. In SAO they could beat the game to leave since Day 1. It doesn't matter how long it took. If you're in an Escape The Room for 5 hours and can't find your way out, you're not trapped just a dumbass. |
| It should also be noted that it was a brand new MMO that they were trapped in. There's no way anyone was going to beat it in a day. Leveling alone would've most likely taken months, especially since they obviously had to be careful not to die. They also had to fight raid bosses to beat the game and anyone who knows anything about MMO bosses knows that a lot of wipes are usually involved before they're finally downed and the players in SAO couldn't do that. Acting like finishing the game was some easy feat is ridiculous. They were trapped. |
LordAuraFeb 28, 2019 4:57 AM
| No it isn't. Put it in an even more extreme way, what if you're just really engrossed in a non-VR game to a point you're not even attentive to your surroundings. It's practically like you are in the game world. Yeah, well I'm leaning more towards not an isekai. |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| There's a simple way to resolve this. Read "The New Gate". You will never be able to see SAO as an isekai, ever again after that. Why? Because it starts off at the end of a SAO-like, Aincrad-arc-like situation of a VRMMO death game where you supposedly die in real life if you die in the game. But after the MC manages to beat the final boss and makes sure everyone on his list of remaining players logged out, he gets isekai'd for real into a world based on the game, where former NPCs became real and several game-based restrictions and features cease to function because it became an actual, real world. Now according to those who call SAO an isekai, this would mean that the MC here didn't get isekai'd because he already was in an isekai. Doesn't that just sound idiotic? That's why after reading The New Gate, you cannot ever call SAO an isekai again. |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: Looks like (1) you are being a stickler on whether a virtual world can count as a parallel universe, and (2) you know how to screenshot text on Wikipedia. Well, you should have checked a little lower on that same page, because it says this:  While it's nice that you do some researches rather than just staying stubborn about your opinion (and I definitely command you for that), I'm afraid the English wikipedia is not really a good/reliable source when it comes to teaching the correct meaning about Japanese words, especially slangs or specific definitions from niche hobbies and the like. That's because, as I've discovered when I got involved with them, peoples who edit those pages are usually NOT able to speak Japanese so what they take as a source are also English blogs, articles or blurbs from English writers who may or may not have more of a clue than you on what they're talking about. As a general rule, take japanese source for japanese words when there's a discussion about the exact meaning. The japanese wikipedia clearly mentions that SAO is involved in the recent boom of Isekai 's popularity , but never says that ti's an isekai, and doesn't classify it as such in the japanese Isekai page either. Furthermore, the sources it gives about SAO also classify SAO as something else than Isekai. Basically, according to japanese sources, there are TWO types of Isekai stories : - Isekai-ten'sei (ten'sei = reincarnated), where character goes in another world as a "different person" (so no longer the "same body" (bodies reconstructed identically as the original one don't count as ten'sei) as he was in the other world. It may not be as a baby however); - isekai-ten'i (ten'i=transfert), where character goes to another world as the same person. This can be literally with his body, or with a reconstructed body (Ex : he died, but a god for example sent him to another world and put him back with the same body he had before). SAO is listed as having contributed to isekai boom because he heavily contributed to that boom by making web novels gets a lot of attention, and that it shared some similarities with what appeals to peoples in isekai stories. It ultimately led to a lot of amateur authors starting to write isekai stories on the web. One reason for that is another MMO related story written on the web that became popular in that same period and made a far more direct link with the Isekai genre by not being clear if it was one or not: Log horizon. ->SAO is listed in one of the sources as being "game-ten'i". So while it definitely shares some of its appeal with the isekai-ten'i part of the isekai genre, japanese sources DO NOT classify it as isekai, and the definition indeed does not fit either. sources : https://realsound.jp/movie/2017/02/post-4134.html https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/異世界_(ジャンル) https://abematimes.com/posts/2286653 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ソードアート・オンライン -------------- So now, anyone can argue all they want that it feels like one, that it's close enough, and so on, but fact is, it's not an isekai. So peoples, feel free to continue calling it one if you want, just don't complain when someone tells you it's not, as that person is correct and you're unfortunately not, but that's about it. |
ZefyrisFeb 28, 2019 2:38 PM
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Zefyris said: Haha, you give me too much credit for that one image. I merely looked further down the very same Wikipedia page the other person had referenced.While it's nice that you do some researches rather than just staying stubborn about your opinion (and I definitely command you for that), I'm afraid the English wikipedia is not really a good/reliable source when it comes to teaching the correct meaning about Japanese words, especially slangs or specific definitions from niche hobbies and the like. Zefyris said: As a general rule, take japanese source for japanese words when there's a discussion about the exact meaning. [long analysis] Thanks for the insight from the Japanese side of things. That was an interesting read. However... Zefyris said: ...there's a few problems with being a stickler for the Japanese definition:So now, anyone can argue all they want that it feels like one, that it's close enough, and so on, but fact is, it's not an isekai. So peoples, feel free to continue calling it one if you want, just don't complain when someone tells you it's not, as that person is correct and you're unfortunately not, but that's about it. 1. "Isekai" is a loanword in English. It is clearly derived from Japanese. However, if we simply use the source language's definition for the loanword, we come to the problem where "anime" now means all cartoons in general, which is very clearly not how the term is used by English-speakers. (And a similar thing could be said of other loanwords, but this is just the most obvious example here.) 2. The Japanese Wikipedia page is little more of an authority than the English page is, since it, too, is essentially staffed by fans, who may or may not necessarily all agree on the definition. At best we can say, perhaps, there's a consensus that SAO doesn't count, though this leaves room for individual interpretations. Which brings me to my third and most important point... 3. The definition of "isekai" is ultimately an arbitrary line-drawing if we take the definition to be a binary thing. Honestly, genres (and other such classifications) don't really work that way. They're actually continua. Since you've read up on the conversation (presumably), you should have seen my comment about how something with the same premise (the scenario PsychoticDave proposed) could easily be seen as different genres. So the right question to ask is not "Is SAO isekai?" expecting a binary answer, but rather, "To what extent is SAO an isekai?". Such a perspective allows one to say "it shares these traits with other stories considered isekai" as well as "it lacks these other traits compared to other stories considered isekai". In short, the question of who's "correct" or "incorrect" on this is actually a rather silly one. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| hey ya'll maltards, didja forget, This IS MAL literally a place where demographics like seinen, shojo and shonen are genres. & ya'll fighting abt shit-tier worst girl trap animes.... |
GlennMagusHarvey said: Zefyris said: Haha, you give me too much credit for that one image. I merely looked further down the very same Wikipedia page the other person had referenced.While it's nice that you do some researches rather than just staying stubborn about your opinion (and I definitely command you for that), I'm afraid the English wikipedia is not really a good/reliable source when it comes to teaching the correct meaning about Japanese words, especially slangs or specific definitions from niche hobbies and the like. Zefyris said: As a general rule, take japanese source for japanese words when there's a discussion about the exact meaning. [long analysis] Thanks for the insight from the Japanese side of things. That was an interesting read. However... Zefyris said: ...there's a few problems with being a stickler for the Japanese definition:So now, anyone can argue all they want that it feels like one, that it's close enough, and so on, but fact is, it's not an isekai. So peoples, feel free to continue calling it one if you want, just don't complain when someone tells you it's not, as that person is correct and you're unfortunately not, but that's about it. 1. "Isekai" is a loanword in English. It is clearly derived from Japanese. However, if we simply use the source language's definition for the loanword, we come to the problem where "anime" now means all cartoons in general, which is very clearly not how the term is used by English-speakers. (And a similar thing could be said of other loanwords, but this is just the most obvious example here.) 2. The Japanese Wikipedia page is little more of an authority than the English page is, since it, too, is essentially staffed by fans, who may or may not necessarily all agree on the definition. At best we can say, perhaps, there's a consensus that SAO doesn't count, though this leaves room for individual interpretations. Which brings me to my third and most important point... 3. The definition of "isekai" is ultimately an arbitrary line-drawing if we take the definition to be a binary thing. Honestly, genres (and other such classifications) don't really work that way. They're actually continua. Since you've read up on the conversation (presumably), you should have seen my comment about how something with the same premise (the scenario PsychoticDave proposed) could easily be seen as different genres. So the right question to ask is not "Is SAO isekai?" expecting a binary answer, but rather, "To what extent is SAO an isekai?". Such a perspective allows one to say "it shares these traits with other stories considered isekai" as well as "it lacks these other traits compared to other stories considered isekai". In short, the question of who's "correct" or "incorrect" on this is actually a rather silly one. Except that 1) English wikipedia is no authority for that definition, so if you go that way, if we start denying authority to Japanese, peoples from Wikipedia are not more qualified (even less probably) than me to decide of the definition. So everyone can have one. That's terribly silly. A word ina language is meant to convey a specific meaning, to communicate with other persons. If everyone has its own definition for that word, then that word has no interest at all. you can completely remove it from your vocabulary, as you can't use it per se : it will mean something different for everyone and therefore it won't be useful to convey whatever thing you wanted to convey. There is nothing more useless in a language than a word that cannot convey its meaning to others. 2) I gave you sources other than wikipedia as well in my answer. 3) Yes literature works can be in between genres quite easily. Voluntarily usually too, as I pointed out with example like Log Horizon which is an example of this. However, considering the genre has a precise definition, and that SAO does not fit the definition, there is no "it may be yes or no" for SAO. If I ask you if the Grapes of Wrath is an Isekai, you will tell me "no" (well, I hope) and the answer will rightfully be a full no and not "to what extend". SAO shares common point with Isekai titles but doesn't fit the definition, with no doubts remaining. So yes, it is correct to say that SAO is no isekai-ten'i, but game-ten'i /game-transfert, and saying the contrary is indeed incorrect. |
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