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Feb 15, 12:30 AM

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Agent_Cobalt said:
GlennMagusHarvey said:
Basically a culture-war flamewar/controversy thing, wherein some people are alleging that SJWs/feminists/liberals/etc. are involved in some sort of conspiratorial agenda to do "bad things" to anime, such as taking out the hot girls, removing the fanservice, shoehorn in diversity (somehow?), and force their political agenda insidiously through censorship and edits, and also alleging that these "bad people" are gradually taking over the industry, and therefore the "good people" need to speak out against these things.

In short, it's a movement whose participants are doing basically the same thing they accuse their opponents of doing -- i.e. falsely presuming that there's a conspiracy against them as a pretext to ruin someone else's fun -- but just with the opposite set of opinions.

I mean pretty much, but its naive to call it a conspiracy. Its already happened and is in full swing in the comic, video game and movie industries. You might not have a problem with people shoving radical progressive into media you like to watch (perhaps because you agree with the messaging), but most people dont. You know why we can tell? Because it doesnt work, and we can tell it doesnt work when it doesnt sell, and people complain. You can look towards comics and games if you want a lose of sales, and you can look to movies, and TV if you want to get a general feel for consumer agitation. How many series have to get murdered, because progressives understand that the people dont want this? As many as it takes I guess. And the only reason Anime is the last of these media types to get dragging into the culture war, is because Japan doesnt give a fuck about what some whiny tumblret feels about a show they think is entertaining, and well written (ala shield hero). But of course, American companies are going to hire people that want to push politics and this is what we get. Its the silicon valley effect.
I've been a gamer continuously since the NES days and, to put it mildly, I strongly disagree with your assessment about the video game industry.

(I don't pay much attention to the movie industry and I pay pretty much no attention to the comics industry so I will not speak on those at-large. Though I have seen Star Wars episode VIII, which gets regularly flamed, and I didn't notice any political messaging beyond the baseline level wherein any plot event could be interpreted through a political lens, nor did I find the movie annoying for any social messaging in general. There were disappointing things that happened in the movie, but they were disappointing for in-universe reasons, in ways that made sense to me. Ironically, while people have commented that it "murdered"/"destroyed"/"betrayed"/"wrecked"/etc. the franchise, I actually became more interested in Star Wars after watching it.)

You can go ahead and pretend that this is some sort of cultural turf war, but I'm not going to join it, because at the end of the day, all this is is just people being angry at other people for having opinions on media that they don't agree with, and then pushing their anger into some sort of social movement and making a giant hot mess of it.

This thread is a great example. What may have happened or not happened between Vic Mignogna and certain other people is for them to sort out, and none of the opinions on the internet about him, about those accusing him of inappropriate conduct, or about any of the political/culture-war controversies going on, have any bearing on whether said inappropriate conduct actually happened. But still, people feel the need to go back and forth on this, and start tarring each other as ignorant political hacks. And then they go on and on with giant (and frequently inaccurate) brushstrokes about how "Japan" monolithically feels or what "western media" monolithically does or what "progressives"/"liberals"/etc. want, yadda yadda yadda.
 
Feb 15, 12:36 AM

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Crackersauce said:
Ideological blindness and echo chamber is all I can say to this. Anyone with a brain can obviously see how skewed this worldview is. "the left is all about accuracy and accuracy only!" and "right is all about lies because they are the privileged ones!" Give me a break. Both parties are liable to inaccuracy regardless of what you think. You sound no different to the far-right ideologues that you demonise to your fullest extent.


That's not really what I said, but funny that you should say that just as Trump declares that him not getting to build his wall to look tough on immigration is a 'national emergency'. Trump's lack of brain makes him a very good illustration of how right-wing politics is all about pushing lies to support entrenched privilege, they come out of him without the usual filters.

I disagree, libertarianism is at very most leaning right, and at the very least, close to center.


I rest my case.

Using income inequality between races is not a good argument to justify the existence of "white privileges", all you are doing is using group identity politics to paint one race as exploitative and the other as victimised, while ignoring all nuances such as potential differences in culture or individual decision making.


I'm using it to explain Libertarian psychology. For demonstration, it's easier to just do something like observe the people getting shot by the police for being black.
 
Feb 15, 1:36 AM
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GlennMagusHarvey said:
Agent_Cobalt said:

I mean pretty much, but its naive to call it a conspiracy. Its already happened and is in full swing in the comic, video game and movie industries. You might not have a problem with people shoving radical progressive into media you like to watch (perhaps because you agree with the messaging), but most people dont. You know why we can tell? Because it doesnt work, and we can tell it doesnt work when it doesnt sell, and people complain. You can look towards comics and games if you want a lose of sales, and you can look to movies, and TV if you want to get a general feel for consumer agitation. How many series have to get murdered, because progressives understand that the people dont want this? As many as it takes I guess. And the only reason Anime is the last of these media types to get dragging into the culture war, is because Japan doesnt give a fuck about what some whiny tumblret feels about a show they think is entertaining, and well written (ala shield hero). But of course, American companies are going to hire people that want to push politics and this is what we get. Its the silicon valley effect.
I've been a gamer continuously since the NES days and, to put it mildly, I strongly disagree with your assessment about the video game industry.

(I don't pay much attention to the movie industry and I pay pretty much no attention to the comics industry so I will not speak on those at-large. Though I have seen Star Wars episode VIII, which gets regularly flamed, and I didn't notice any political messaging beyond the baseline level wherein any plot event could be interpreted through a political lens, nor did I find the movie annoying for any social messaging in general. There were disappointing things that happened in the movie, but they were disappointing for in-universe reasons, in ways that made sense to me. Ironically, while people have commented that it "murdered"/"destroyed"/"betrayed"/"wrecked"/etc. the franchise, I actually became more interested in Star Wars after watching it.)

You can go ahead and pretend that this is some sort of cultural turf war, but I'm not going to join it, because at the end of the day, all this is is just people being angry at other people for having opinions on media that they don't agree with, and then pushing their anger into some sort of social movement and making a giant hot mess of it.

This thread is a great example. What may have happened or not happened between Vic Mignogna and certain other people is for them to sort out, and none of the opinions on the internet about him, about those accusing him of inappropriate conduct, or about any of the political/culture-war controversies going on, have any bearing on whether said inappropriate conduct actually happened. But still, people feel the need to go back and forth on this, and start tarring each other as ignorant political hacks. And then they go on and on with giant (and frequently inaccurate) brushstrokes about how "Japan" monolithically feels or what "western media" monolithically does or what "progressives"/"liberals"/etc. want, yadda yadda yadda.

I think your just not knowledgeable on the subject (which you kind of admit to a degree). You being a gamer from NES days doesnt enter into this equation, because this is about the present day industry. Like I said, forced progressivism is easy to overlook when you arent critical of the narrative its projecting. Im not blaming the normies for not knowing anything about this crap, and im not asking you to involve yourself anymore than you want to. Its the kind of thing that once you see it as blatantly as it is, you cant unsee it. But this isnt a fight between people like us, its a fight between consumers and people in positions of power that want to tell there audience what to think, and that you are a bad person if you dont agree. Its a common trend with radical progressivism in America, they push for every diversity except diversity of opinions.
People are going to vote with there wallets, and your only ever going to hear hyperbolic hate, or hyperbolic hate towards the other side. Companies and franchises are going to fail, and its important to know why. This doesnt happen overnight, but you cant deny the impact once you take a good long look at the situation.
Im cancelling my funimation subscription until they either A. Prove evidence that Vic is guilty, and guilty of actual sexual harassment, not whatever half ass crap some other people have put out there. B. Apologized to Vic (although theres 100!% no chance in hell he's getting hired back C. Fire a handful of other VA's that have been using this situation to throw Vic under the bus and get there pro feminist brownie points in
 
Feb 15, 1:39 AM
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logopolis said:
Crackersauce said:
Ideological blindness and echo chamber is all I can say to this. Anyone with a brain can obviously see how skewed this worldview is. "the left is all about accuracy and accuracy only!" and "right is all about lies because they are the privileged ones!" Give me a break. Both parties are liable to inaccuracy regardless of what you think. You sound no different to the far-right ideologues that you demonise to your fullest extent.


That's not really what I said, but funny that you should say that just as Trump declares that him not getting to build his wall to look tough on immigration is a 'national emergency'. Trump's lack of brain makes him a very good illustration of how right-wing politics is all about pushing lies to support entrenched privilege, they come out of him without the usual filters.

I disagree, libertarianism is at very most leaning right, and at the very least, close to center.


I rest my case.

Using income inequality between races is not a good argument to justify the existence of "white privileges", all you are doing is using group identity politics to paint one race as exploitative and the other as victimised, while ignoring all nuances such as potential differences in culture or individual decision making.


I'm using it to explain Libertarian psychology. For demonstration, it's easier to just do something like observe the people getting shot by the police for being black.

Shame on you. You said the T word. Why did you have to say the T word.

Why cant we just stick with half a dozen stupid political topics at a time.


Also sidenote. Libertarians are only considered right leaning, because the left has gone so fucking far left, thats how that works
 
Feb 15, 1:49 AM

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Nobody cares about politics and Trump in a thread about Vic Mignogna.
 
Feb 15, 2:08 AM

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Mywifesson said:
These people are alcoholic degenerates who worship pedophiles and demon worshippers. Someone like Jaime trained all her life to be a classical actor in Hollywood films, you know the place known for the pedo parties and blood ritual. Someone like Jaime has passed her prime is drinking nearly every day as far as I can tell, has gained significant amounts of weight, someone like Monica is single and childless at 42. These women have nothing, they will never have anything again. Their only hope is to lie and deceive themselves into money to buy more pills and booze to placate themselves.

Reeeee! conspiracy nonsense
Reeeee! blood ritual pedophiles
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
 
Feb 15, 2:25 AM
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This demonstrates why Dubbed anime is a bad thing.

You don't see this crap happening in Japan. Typical Americans trying to ruin everything.


 
Feb 15, 2:29 AM

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Agent_Cobalt said:
GlennMagusHarvey said:
I've been a gamer continuously since the NES days and, to put it mildly, I strongly disagree with your assessment about the video game industry.

(I don't pay much attention to the movie industry and I pay pretty much no attention to the comics industry so I will not speak on those at-large. Though I have seen Star Wars episode VIII, which gets regularly flamed, and I didn't notice any political messaging beyond the baseline level wherein any plot event could be interpreted through a political lens, nor did I find the movie annoying for any social messaging in general. There were disappointing things that happened in the movie, but they were disappointing for in-universe reasons, in ways that made sense to me. Ironically, while people have commented that it "murdered"/"destroyed"/"betrayed"/"wrecked"/etc. the franchise, I actually became more interested in Star Wars after watching it.)

You can go ahead and pretend that this is some sort of cultural turf war, but I'm not going to join it, because at the end of the day, all this is is just people being angry at other people for having opinions on media that they don't agree with, and then pushing their anger into some sort of social movement and making a giant hot mess of it.

This thread is a great example. What may have happened or not happened between Vic Mignogna and certain other people is for them to sort out, and none of the opinions on the internet about him, about those accusing him of inappropriate conduct, or about any of the political/culture-war controversies going on, have any bearing on whether said inappropriate conduct actually happened. But still, people feel the need to go back and forth on this, and start tarring each other as ignorant political hacks. And then they go on and on with giant (and frequently inaccurate) brushstrokes about how "Japan" monolithically feels or what "western media" monolithically does or what "progressives"/"liberals"/etc. want, yadda yadda yadda.

I think your just not knowledgeable on the subject (which you kind of admit to a degree). You being a gamer from NES days doesnt enter into this equation, because this is about the present day industry. Like I said, forced progressivism is easy to overlook when you arent critical of the narrative its projecting. Im not blaming the normies for not knowing anything about this crap, and im not asking you to involve yourself anymore than you want to. Its the kind of thing that once you see it as blatantly as it is, you cant unsee it. But this isnt a fight between people like us, its a fight between consumers and people in positions of power that want to tell there audience what to think, and that you are a bad person if you dont agree. Its a common trend with radical progressivism in America, they push for every diversity except diversity of opinions.
People are going to vote with there wallets, and your only ever going to hear hyperbolic hate, or hyperbolic hate towards the other side. Companies and franchises are going to fail, and its important to know why. This doesnt happen overnight, but you cant deny the impact once you take a good long look at the situation.
Im cancelling my funimation subscription until they either A. Prove evidence that Vic is guilty, and guilty of actual sexual harassment, not whatever half ass crap some other people have put out there. B. Apologized to Vic (although theres 100!% no chance in hell he's getting hired back C. Fire a handful of other VA's that have been using this situation to throw Vic under the bus and get there pro feminist brownie points in
You can claim as much as you want that you "see" stuff that other people (e.g. said "normies") don't see, but at the end of the day, without the influence of bias from agreeing or disagreeing with either "narrative", all these controversies are just ideological arguments that occasionally entrain some instance of uncertainty over allegations in order for people to conduct a proxy war by showing their support/disdain for whichever side represents what they like/dislike. It was this way in gamergate, and it is this once again here.

Besides, if this fad of "forced radical progressivism" is going to end up eating its own tail through market inviability, as you suggest, then anime (and video games and everything else) will have been here before it and will continue to be here after it.

Good for you on exercising your right to "vote with your wallet". You reserve the right to do that just as much as I reserve the right to disagree with you. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

(PS: the left/right dichotomy -- in which political ideologies and issue opinions are pinned to a one-dimensional scale with an oh-so-holy middle ground -- is a load of horseshit.)

Hebii said:
This demonstrates why Dubbed anime is a bad thing.

You don't see this crap happening in Japan. Typical Americans trying to ruin everything.
> implying that the Japanese don't have their own controversies
Modified by GlennMagusHarvey, Feb 15, 2:32 AM
 
Feb 15, 2:42 AM
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GlennMagusHarvey said:
Agent_Cobalt said:

I think your just not knowledgeable on the subject (which you kind of admit to a degree). You being a gamer from NES days doesnt enter into this equation, because this is about the present day industry. Like I said, forced progressivism is easy to overlook when you arent critical of the narrative its projecting. Im not blaming the normies for not knowing anything about this crap, and im not asking you to involve yourself anymore than you want to. Its the kind of thing that once you see it as blatantly as it is, you cant unsee it. But this isnt a fight between people like us, its a fight between consumers and people in positions of power that want to tell there audience what to think, and that you are a bad person if you dont agree. Its a common trend with radical progressivism in America, they push for every diversity except diversity of opinions.
People are going to vote with there wallets, and your only ever going to hear hyperbolic hate, or hyperbolic hate towards the other side. Companies and franchises are going to fail, and its important to know why. This doesnt happen overnight, but you cant deny the impact once you take a good long look at the situation.
Im cancelling my funimation subscription until they either A. Prove evidence that Vic is guilty, and guilty of actual sexual harassment, not whatever half ass crap some other people have put out there. B. Apologized to Vic (although theres 100!% no chance in hell he's getting hired back C. Fire a handful of other VA's that have been using this situation to throw Vic under the bus and get there pro feminist brownie points in
You can claim as much as you want that you "see" stuff that other people (e.g. said "normies") don't see, but at the end of the day, without the influence of bias from agreeing or disagreeing with either "narrative", all these controversies are just ideological arguments that occasionally adopt some instance of uncertainty over allegations in order to conduct a proxy war for people to show their support/disdain for whichever side they like/dislike. It was this way in gamergate, and it is this once again here.

Besides, if this fad of "forced radical progressivism" is going to end up eating its own tail through market inviability, as you suggest, then anime (and video games and everything else) will have been here before it and will continue to be here after it.

Good for you on exercising your right to "vote with your wallet". You reserve the right to do that just as much as I reserve the right to disagree with you. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

(PS: the left/right dichotomy -- in which political ideologies and issue opinions are pinned to a one-dimensional scale with an oh-so-holy middle ground -- is a load of horseshit.)

Hebii said:
This demonstrates why Dubbed anime is a bad thing.

You don't see this crap happening in Japan. Typical Americans trying to ruin everything.
> implying that the Japanese don't have their own controversies

Gamergate was weird because you had both sides making very different claims about what the movement is. Its clear that it started from concerns about journalistic integrity, only to move onto both that, and forced virtue signalling in games. Most journos, most people in hollywood, most talking heads on TV are left, and so my point is these movements like gamergate, comicsgate and now animegate, are now coming to a head. Populism, and nationalism are on the rise all over the world. What im trying to say is Yes. Anime and video games will be here when all this shit blows over. It will blow over. Where people like me start to get angry, and start to get involved in the discussion is when we see things we like. Series, characters, and marketing getting propped up like a corpse to sell to people who didnt like it for what it was. All they care about is it being inclusive enough for the brownie points.

The Vic stuff is in the same boat, because you have all these people telling us that Oh Vic touched hugged us too much, or Vic was kind of rude. And any rational person would just brush it off as you do. And if it was serious enough they could have gone to the police, or gotten involved when the rest of this MeToo thing started.

I agree the left and the right arent tied together like a scale, but there are so many fucking idelogical terms now a days, it just helps sort it out. Like I consider myself to be a center liberal (in the old fashion sense), and I bet you thought I was a republican.
 
Feb 15, 2:45 AM
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Just gonna throw this out there

I can kind of see a fellow employee not speaking up over sexual assault, because Vic is an important person yada yada

I dont however see how a convention go'er, even a fan wouldnt go to the police or anything. Its slim to none. Especially in the past couple years.

When this is done, I feel like Vic's not the only VA thats going to get there reputation ruined
 
Feb 15, 2:49 AM

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I honestly don't think the discussion of whether it is real or falsified matters here. His reputation just took a big blow here and it could impact his future career option.

AFAIK regarding the VA industry, reputation is as big as, if not more important than the actual skill. I think a couple years back, there was a controversy with a league of legends (i think?) regarding not employing some VA because of the past and it caused a huge uproar (really iffy about this one, someone look it up).

Of course, if it is false, he could always just sue for defamation.
WHEN IT RAINS, IT POURS.
 
Feb 15, 2:59 AM

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Agent_Cobalt said:
I agree the left and the right arent tied together like a scale, but there are so many fucking idelogical terms now a days, it just helps sort it out. Like I consider myself to be a center liberal (in the old fashion sense), and I bet you thought I was a republican.
I never even thought about your US political party affiliation, since I'm quite aware there are people on MAL who aren't from the US ("I don't natively speak English" is a rather popular reason here for having no interest in English dubs), for which an affiliation with one of the two major parties in the US wouldn't make any sense.

That said, the left/right thing is a load of crap because it implies that positions on the "far" points of the spectrum are bad only because they're far away from the center (as opposed to being bad policy ideas), and also implies that being in the center is necessarily better while at the same time enabling the annoying idea that politics is a zero sum game where things either go left or right and making whoever is the loser feel desperate about losing and thus needing to fight the other side harder.

I was responding to this line of yours:
Agent_Cobalt said:
Also sidenote. Libertarians are only considered right leaning, because the left has gone so fucking far left, thats how that works
 
Feb 15, 3:01 AM
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