Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari Episode 4 Discussion

mecegirl said:


I've read the manga .... I know what happens in the future for a good bit. So my opinions are a bit biased but they are fully formed. It doesn't get much better as far as the three heroes are concerned, trust me. Now there are other antagonists that are worth dealing with. And Naofumi and his relationship with characters yet to be revealed is great. That dosn't change the fact that the three heroes have flat characterizations.

The term antagonist does not equal villain by the way. It's a general term for any character that has goals counter to the protagonists. So at this point in the story the three heroes and the Kingdom are the antagonists. Also, lets say I was new to this story. The story has to hook me and keep me hooked. There has to be enough good parts to keep me interested til I get to the better parts. So saying it gets better later does shit if it looses me now. There are too many animes and mangas out there for me to judge this story as if its the only isekai.

And, we are allowed to judge media. We are allowed to state what characters and concepts work and which ones do not. We can do so while enjoying it overall because our brain's are big enough to process such things. It's a message board for discussing the show after all, what do you expect? Continued declarative statements about how Raphtalia is the best girl?

Okay, yeah. She is the best girl! But also the three heroes are not very engaging as antagonists because of how one note their characters are. The story can be deep in some aspects and shallow in others. Naofumi's relationship with his found family in this world is very deep, could be deeper if the story's plot didn't have to keep snapping back to the waves. The three heroes are not deep to the point of rampant stupidity. Spoilers, but its the kind of stupidity that puts them in harms way again and again. The kind that puts innocent people in harms way again and again. And the kind that makes simple tasks way harder than it should be. And all to prop up their arrogance and narrow world view.

Cleckeroo said:


If you go farther from the manga to the LN itself you can see that the 3 heroes has a great character development, , I wont spoil you further for your sake. And trust me there are antagonists in this series that is more worth mentioning besides the 3 idiots.

This is a series that you shouldn't taking lightly because of plot twists that can change your perspective on that character. You will see that this series is really special when it comes to storytelling character development. In the past I think isekai is one of the best genres out there and it suddenly becomes mainstream and many authors tried to embrace and recreate it by shits, but this one is special.

mecegirl said:


Like I already said. It has to get me to that point. The story right now has to be engaging enough so that I don't drop it in between episodes or as far as the manga is concerned scanlations. It getting better later isn't always worth slogging through stiff characterizations now. Right now the three of them could die I and wouldn't miss them. A character in the manga has already suggested they should die and I agree! As far as the manga goes, I've already decided to give it a break. I may jump back into it but its on the back burner for me.

No offence but your word isn't worth anything to me. I don't know you. And I don't know your taste in stories. We may have opposite qualifications for good story telling, and books you love could very well be books I hate, and vice versa. So the story has to speak to me for itself. Right now its whatever and I'm watching the anime to see if they improve on what has been portrayed in the manga.

Cleckeroo said:


Nah it's okay I agree with the part of we have different perspectives when it comes to story telling. But I don't think they have stiff characteristics, more like an experienced gamer in a forum that boasts their skills before even try the actual game, when I first read the novel (web) I always thought that their are important characters later, well it doesn't make sense that the author have 4 summoned heroes with no character development for each right.

That's my style of reading I always predicting that something interesting will happen involving that character, if my prediction is wrong well I just enjoy the material by not complaining.

Ten said:
Oh god, it was painful to watch. Not because I feel bad for Naofumi but because how exaggerated their attitude towards Shield Hero is. At least someone noticed how fishy everything is, but still, those people are just the worse and it feels so forced.

mecegirl said:


The three need better side characters in my opinion. They need proper foils. Without Raphtalia Naofumi would just be a bitter asshole. Granted he has reason to be bitter, but bitterness alone would be boring. Bitterness alone is not a good driver of events. It is through their relationship (and other people Naofumi learns to trust) that we get to see other more redemable qualities within his character. It also gives him a reason to stay/try to save the kingdom that has treated him so badly. Seeing him open up to her gives me hope and ramps up the anticipation for future events.

The three heroes have been shown to be arrogant, naive, and stupid to varying degrees. The people within their parties are just as bad or not worse. They obviously just think this is a game. I can tell just from what I've read in the manga[spoilers] The turtle has appeared and Naofumi is trying to catch up to the three heroes before they get killed.[/spoiler] that the three heroes are going to have to hit rock bottom before they start behaving like they have any sense. It's just that for me I don't have enough attachment to them as characters to wait for their character development to really happen. Like the could die and the story could turn solely into Naofumi instead and I would love it. I doubt that is all that is going to happen though.

Demyx_IX said:
It feels forced because it hasn't been revealed yet, why they all treat him like he's Actually Satan. People complaining that it feels forced, has caused the meaning of "forced" to lose its meaning. Like, christ pay attention to the minute details and you'll figure out that it's not forced.

Ten said:

It doesn't really matter. I've heard already people saying how everything will make sense later on and that there is the reason to the hate. The problem is with the way the story is told. Whatever is revealed later will be later, right now it feels forced and almost silly. Good storytelling is supposed to be more subtle with these things and not rely on the promises of those who already read the story that all will come together but keep the current events look reasonable as well. Maybe it's the adaptation and the source material handled it better, I don't know. But it doesn't change how over the top the events look at the moment.

Demyx_IX said:
No offense, but the more you write, the more it sounds like you're sayng; "How dare they not explain everything as soon as it comes up. This is lazy writing and forced adversity and it angers me that I have to wait to get my answers."

Hatsuyuki said:
So Raphtalia is bent on creating a whole new level of best girl.

AForgottenSoul said:
They already think hes guilty based on what he did to that girl but after seeing her dirty tactics in from of them they will start to realise?

Even though they may hate Naofumi they still respect a duel 1 on 1, its not that hard to grasp.

AForgottenSoul said:
I disagree based on all that set up they obviously did have a reason to doubt the shield hero, i dont think they are doing what the plot need's them to do..

coolxal said:
Clearly you're new to this world.

White Knights and SJWs are a thing. In fact, they're a sizable majority nowadays (at least in western society).

You must've never seen how quickly fake rape accusations (mattress girl) can quickly destroy someone's reputation.

SSL443 said:

I'm not saying it is hard to grasp, I'm saying that they lack the characterization needed to contextualize their role in the story. They are no more than devices of the plot, which constitutes poor/lazy writing.


What setup? They have zero negative interactions with the shield hero. The only thing they might assume is that he is a "noob" because that is supposedly the only type of player that would play a shield. Since none of them chose their class, it makes no sense that they would prejudge him for even that reason.

Araragi said:
I think some things weren't explicitly made clear in the anime as well as it could have been so some people will undoubtedly question stuff like the writing. But that's to be expected from a LN to anime adaption. Like, in the LN it was quite obvious naofumi was heavily impacted by the betrayal and how much the world seemed against him that he could no longer taste food. But in the anime, it mostly came across to me as an 'attitude' where he just didn't want to eat.

Anyways for those with doubts about the 'writing', stuff will be made clear when the time is right.

Killuan said:


In episode 2 he did comment "I still don't taste a thing"

Ten said:

It doesn't really matter. I've heard already people saying how everything will make sense later on and that there is the reason to the hate. The problem is with the way the story is told. Whatever is revealed later will be later, right now it feels forced and almost silly. Good storytelling is supposed to be more subtle with these things and not rely on the promises of those who already read the story that all will come together but keep the current events look reasonable as well. Maybe it's the adaptation and the source material handled it better, I don't know. But it doesn't change how over the top the events look at the moment.

terminador_2397 said:


I agree with you on that, for you are only going by what the anime has shown so far and not defaulting to what happens later on in the manga/LN. It's one of the things people should try not to get into too much when using the source material to make up for what the anime has or has not
done regardless of what happens later.

terminador_2397 said:


I agree with you on that, for you are only going by what the anime has shown so far and not defaulting to what happens later on in the manga/LN. It's one of the things people should try not to get into too much when using the source material to make up for what the anime has or has not done regardless of what happens later.

Demyx_IX said:
Here we go again with the whole lazy/bad writing without offering any advice on how to improve it. With the amount of times you and Kamiyan throw the term around, it has completely lost its meaning.

This is bad/lazy writing, that's bad/lazy writing. Everything that I don't like is bad and lazy writing! You two are literally the Oprah Winfreys of saying that something is bad/lazy writing.

SSL443 said:
Not sure why you're getting so emotional. I've been consistent and focused with what I have called bad writing, and the ways to improve it have been implicit in my criticism. Although I'm not sure why I am under any obligation to do the author's job for them.

SSL443 said:

Not sure why you're getting so emotional. I've been consistent and focused with what I have called bad writing, and the ways to improve it have been implicit in my criticism. Although I'm not sure why I am under any obligation to do the author's job for them.

mecegirl said:
The three heroes grow very slowly and if I had to guess(because it isn't explicitly stated in the manga) it's a combination of them being young and unaware of real consequences. They are treating things like a video game. At the point I am in in the manga I think the three are starting to understand that shit's real, but that may just be me hoping that no one is that stupid. lol.

mecegirl said:
The three need better side characters in my opinion. They need proper foils. Without Raphtalia Naofumi would just be a bitter asshole. Granted he has reason to be bitter, but bitterness alone would be boring. Bitterness alone is not a good driver of events. It is through their relationship (and other people Naofumi learns to trust) that we get to see other more redemable qualities within his character. It also gives him a reason to stay/try to save the kingdom that has treated him so badly. Seeing him open up to her gives me hope and ramps up the anticipation for future events.

mecegirl said:
I can tell just from what I've read in the manga, that the three heroes are going to have to hit rock bottom before they start behaving like they have any sense.

Ryuutobi said:
The manga is at the start of the arc that teaches the other heroes reality in the hard way.

Minor Spoiler

The characters that will facilitate the growth of those three have all been introduced in the manga. It's just that they are still on the way to play that role.

But the very same thing can be said about Naofumi. The only difference is Naofumi hit that lowest point very early, close to the start even. He was not that much different from Ren before that point.

SSL443 said:

I'm not saying it is hard to grasp, I'm saying that they lack the characterization needed to contextualize their role in the story. They are no more than devices of the plot, which constitutes poor/lazy writing.


What setup? They have zero negative interactions with the shield hero. The only thing they might assume is that he is a "noob" because that is supposedly the only type of player that would play a shield. Since none of them chose their class, it makes no sense that they would prejudge him for even that reason.

BestJo said:


there are literally 4 episodes of story building focused on his experiences with the world and mostly corrupted/selfish people and you still say "oh the world is a hideous place power of friendship and blah blah blah"?
in only 4 episodes this anime did a better job than fairy tail did in 200 episodes.
that s how you build a fucking story.

VeryLTTP said:
Honestly, your elaboration has been very poor. You make a claim, but you don't give out explicit examples and as a result, your criticisms are nothing more than a word salad. The use of complex vocabulary makes your arguments appear well thought out, but it is nothing more than a thin mask because you never explain beyond that layer. Ultimately, your use of "bad writing" is as buzzworthy as the commonly overused label of "generic".

Demyx_IX said:
I have no idea why you think I'm getting "emotional" over it, I mean, I guess I'm getting annoyed that, EVERY. SINGLE. COMPLAINT. YOU. MAKE. STARTS. AND. ENDS. THE. SAME. WAY. No you don't, literally every time you say that there is bad writing, you only complain about how you think it's bad writing, not how you would improve it. And nobody is telling you to do the author's job, but the more you say it's bad writing without offering how you would personally have done it, it loses the value of saying that it's bad writing every time you say it. It's honestly a miracle to see more than one or two posts that you and Kamiyan write to not have 'bad/lazy writing' in it.

SSL443 said:

I have given specific examples of relevant situations, even citing specific dialog, and I have explained WHY the writing is bad (lack of characterization, etc). It's all there in my posts to be read. Unfortunately it seems like some people don't want to acknowledge that there might be any such flaws in this show, so they ignore the salient details.


My criticisms begin and end the same way because I keep having to repeat the same point. As I said in my reply above, I always accompany my criticism with detail about why the writing is bad; I have not, at any point, complained that the writing is bad without any further elaboration. I haven't edited any of my posts so you're free to go back and show me when you think that happened.

Demyx_IX said:
Do you know what the definition of insanity is? Its doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result each time. You keep repeating yourself over and over, because you think that doing so will eventually change the minds of the people that you're arguing with. And ignore or even claim what they write proves your point.

SSL443 said:

You're telling me? If you don't want to actually engage my argument, and instead argue about HOW I'm arguing... I don't know what else to say.

owen4402 said:
When you've read the manga and know that every lash Naofumi has been taking will be refunded 10 fold.

SSL443 said:
I have given specific examples of relevant situations, even citing specific dialog, and I have explained WHY the writing is bad (lack of characterization, etc). It's all there in my posts to be read. Unfortunately it seems like some people don't want to acknowledge that there might be any such flaws in this show, so they ignore the salient details.

Demyx_IX said:
Do you know what the definition of insanity is? Its doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result each time. You keep repeating yourself over and over, because you think that doing so will eventually change the minds of the people that you're arguing with. And ignore or even claim what they write proves your point.

GrimorumInvoke said:
I never read manga and I do not know what will happen in this anime, but I speculate the shield has some sort of curse on it. Someone is purposely victimizing the shield hero to activate the curse. There must be some sort of twist and the puppet master is somehow manipulating the King. If I am right, don't tell me because that would be a spoiler.

SSL443 said:

You're telling me? If you don't want to actually engage my argument, and instead argue about HOW I'm arguing... I don't know what else to say.