doomrider7 said: vhagar8 said: Having read the source material doesn't imply whatsoever ur making good points lmao. And gonna disagree even with the first part, honestly, more or less everyone I see here on mal criticizing any series is either a butthurt or a braindead. I don't wanna say smart critics doesn't exist at all, just saying I'm yet to meet one here on mal. Like for example ur point about the queen is shit. If you'd spent more time studying history rather than getting butthurt over fictional works u'd know that a young princess getting married with way older guy for political issue was quite normal back in middle age... I'm not talking here. I'm talking in the forums I visit outside the fandom and yeah that just reinforces how fucking creepy the series is that certain things alike that seem to be ok or even appeal to people and please spare me that nonsense about viewing things from a different cultural lens bullshit. Shit is creepy here too regardless of that, "It's a medieval setting" bullshit. If it were taking place in the REAL world then yeah sure maybe, but it's not. It's a fucking fantasy world. None of that shit is real and it only exists. All that does is the finished product and what it represents. Well whatever, the only creepy thing I find here is your warped way of thinking. If the smart critics you were refering to are your SJW crew I really do hope they stay on those other forum, here on mal there's already more than enough cancer without them. |
| @Dug_Fin vhagar8 said: doomrider7 said: I'm not talking here. I'm talking in the forums I visit outside the fandom and yeah that just reinforces how fucking creepy the series is that certain things alike that seem to be ok or even appeal to people and please spare me that nonsense about viewing things from a different cultural lens bullshit. Shit is creepy here too regardless of that, "It's a medieval setting" bullshit. If it were taking place in the REAL world then yeah sure maybe, but it's not. It's a fucking fantasy world. None of that shit is real and it only exists. All that does is the finished product and what it represents. Well whatever, the only creepy thing I find here is your warped way of thinking. If the smart critics you were refering to are your SJW crew I really do hope they stay on those other forum, here on mal there's already more than enough cancer without them. Don't worry, I'm here to answer to all of your SJW needs <3 In fact, last time they polled this MAL seems to be more left-wing on average. The more you know. |
NthDegreeJan 12, 2019 4:41 AM
doomrider7 said: Shit is creepy here too regardless of that, "It's a medieval setting" bullshit. If it were taking place in the REAL world then yeah sure maybe, but it's not. It's a fucking fantasy world. None of that shit is real and it only exists. All that does is the finished product and what it represents. I wasn't really trying to argue against your points because they are your opinion, and you are entitled to it... but this here is a very poor argument. young princess getting married with way older guy for political issue was quite normal back in middle age... This is exactly why I don't have a problem with Melty and would have made the same argument. Just because something is a fantasy world doesn't mean it can't follow the same historical norms as our own world. Regardless of how creepy you find it, the setting finds young marriage to be perfectly acceptable because it WAS perfectly acceptable in the age this setting emulates, but then redefines with fantastic elements. The fantasty is the monsters, the gaming structure, and magic. Not reshaping how the past used to be for our modern sensibilities. |
NthDegree said: @Dug_Fin vhagar8 said: Well whatever, the only creepy thing I find here is your warped way of thinking. If the smart critics you were refering to are your SJW crew I really do hope they stay on those other forum, here on mal there's already more than enough cancer without them. Don't worry, I'm here to answer to all of your SJW needs <3 In fact, last time they polled this MAL seems to be more left-wing on average. The more you know. Ahahahah u really do hate this show, don't u? In every damn thread there's at least one of your comments popping up. Anyway I already told u I kinda agree about the villains, they're characterization is not the best for sure, but BAD writing is quite the exageration to me. The villains' motives may be a little forced but they still make sense. There's way worse writing than this imo and almost any show is a little forced here and there for plot convinence, so I really don't see why it is so problematic in this particular show |
| [quote=NthDegree]@Dug_Fin [/spoiler]It still makes for a paper thin motivation, given that the worldbuilding regards to the church is barebones at best. The only prominent figure we ever see from the church is that pope guy whose characterization is basically limited to "evil". Besides, I don't remember the princess ever practicing her religion to imply that that was her motivation. In the first place, why does the church persecute the Shield Hero? And then the author just goes like 'herp derp betrayal spirit'. Now I'm not quite that far in the books, but technically you could also question it's motivation, which I assume is something like "it's evil so it doesn't need any motivation"... The point is, when you start questioning any of the premises the story just falls apart. This is what I call shoddy writing. As for the other heroes, they're all portrayed as incompetent fools who can't work together, even with each other, let alone the MC. Even your 'explanation' of their hatred of the MC includes them being prejudiced idiots who can't accept the truth. It's like the universe is conspiring to make everyone who is not a waifu in the MC's vicinity completely hateable so the MC can look better in comparison (and then the author realizes this and gives 'revenge spirit' as a cop-out explanation lol). Like how is this not terrible writing? It's [quote=NthDegree]@Dug_Fin Yeah, you're not wrong. The bunch of teenagers aren't the best at thinking things through. MC is also a prejudiced idiot sometimes, so it not like he's better than them though. There are many people who don't formally practice religion, but would still believe the devil is evil. The world building could also be better, but this is a story about Naofumi, not game of thrones, so I can forgive that. The church persecutes and demonizes shield hero because past shield heroes supported demi humans, and this particular country is super racist, not everyone in it, but as a whole. It's one of the things the queen is trying to fix. You say its shoddy writing but it happens in real life often enough that I give it a pass. Is it contrived, yeah it is, but overall I still find it enjoyable. Would I enjoy it way more if the author took more time building the world up and made Naofumi one of many main characters? Yes, I would, but that's a huge commitment, not everyone is Tolkien or Martin. In short yes the story has flaws, but no more or less than the many others I've read and certainly not enough for me not to enjoy it. |
| I'll change this as soon as I think of something clever. |
| [quote=Dug_Fin message=56706439][quote=NthDegree]@Dug_Fin [/spoiler]It still makes for a paper thin motivation, given that the worldbuilding regards to the church is barebones at best. The only prominent figure we ever see from the church is that pope guy whose characterization is basically limited to "evil". Besides, I don't remember the princess ever practicing her religion to imply that that was her motivation. In the first place, why does the church persecute the Shield Hero? And then the author just goes like 'herp derp betrayal spirit'. Now I'm not quite that far in the books, but technically you could also question it's motivation, which I assume is something like "it's evil so it doesn't need any motivation"... The point is, when you start questioning any of the premises the story just falls apart. This is what I call shoddy writing. As for the other heroes, they're all portrayed as incompetent fools who can't work together, even with each other, let alone the MC. Even your 'explanation' of their hatred of the MC includes them being prejudiced idiots who can't accept the truth. It's like the universe is conspiring to make everyone who is not a waifu in the MC's vicinity completely hateable so the MC can look better in comparison (and then the author realizes this and gives 'revenge spirit' as a cop-out explanation lol). Like how is this not terrible writing? It's NthDegree said: @Dug_Fin Yeah, you're not wrong. The bunch of teenagers aren't the best at thinking things through. MC is also a prejudiced idiot sometimes, so it not like he's better than them though. There are many people who don't formally practice religion, but would still believe the devil is evil. The world building could also be better, but this is a story about Naofumi, not game of thrones, so I can forgive that. The church persecutes and demonizes shield hero because past shield heroes supported demi humans, and this particular country is super racist, not everyone in it, but as a whole. It's one of the things the queen is trying to fix. You say its shoddy writing but it happens in real life often enough that I give it a pass. Is it contrived, yeah it is, but overall I still find it enjoyable. Would I enjoy it way more if the author took more time building the world up and made Naofumi one of many main characters? Yes, I would, but that's a huge commitment, not everyone is Tolkien or Martin. In short yes the story has flaws, but no more or less than the many others I've read and certainly not enough for me not to enjoy it. Exactly, I agree on almost everything but the mc, I'm not saying he's flawless but he's a pretty solid mc imo. |
| @vhagar8 I do admit that TateYuu is the first time in a while where I've found an MC this unbearable. That being said, the reason I post here so much is mostly just because I try to give everyone a timely reply and I just like talking to people with different opinions. By the way, I find it baffling how much more open people seem to be to me criticizing terrible characters and worldbuilding in the series, as opposed to criticizing it for normalizing slavery and misogyny. To me the both of them are completely valid ways of critiquing a show, but I cannot understand why people only get hysterical about the ethical aspects. I'm just saying this because even you were complaining about SJW, as if even discussing about that kind of criticisms is invalid. @Dug_Fin If they were aiming for depicting realistic teenagers, how come everything the MC does is portrayed as justified in the narrative? Now it's like the other heroes do ALL the mistakes while the author tries really hard to show how the MC is always innocent. It's the massive gap between these two that make me unable to buy any of it and makes the MC seem like a Mary Sue that the author is extremely biased for (if you want to be exact, he's like a combination of Sympathetic Sue and Jerk Sue in TV-Tropes terms). I think it's completely fine to enjoy a bad show every now and then. However, I'm simply confused why you would want to defend it online if you also agree with the criticisms (like my previous post). |
NthDegree said: @vhagar8 I do admit that TateYuu is the first time in a while where I've found an MC this unbearable. That being said, the reason I post here so much is mostly just because I try to give everyone a timely reply and I just like talking to people with different opinions. By the way, I find it baffling how much more open people seem to be to me criticizing terrible characters and worldbuilding in the series, as opposed to criticizing it for normalizing slavery and misogyny. To me the both of them are completely valid ways of critiquing a show, but I cannot understand why people only get hysterical about the ethical aspects. I'm just saying this because even you were complaining about SJW, as if even discussing about that kind of criticisms is invalid. @Dug_Fin If they were aiming for depicting realistic teenagers, how come everything the MC does is portrayed as justified in the narrative? Now it's like the other heroes do ALL the mistakes while the author tries really hard to show how the MC is always innocent. It's the massive gap between these two that make me unable to buy any of it and makes the MC seem like a Mary Sue that the author is extremely biased for (if you want to be exact, he's like a combination of Sympathetic Sue and Jerk Sue in TV-Tropes terms). I think it's completely fine to enjoy a bad show every now and then. However, I'm simply confused why you would want to defend it online if you also agree with the criticisms (like my previous post). Well, the thing is that I just find all the moral arguments against this show too bad to be taken seriously and create an healty disccussion. Your arguments about world building and characterization seems pretty fair to me tho. About the last part, agreeing that the show has flaws doesn't mean I agree that the show is bad, any show has flaws, not just this one. To me, the flaws that make this show bad in your opinion, make it good instead of amazing. So yes, I agree with your criticism, what I do not agree with is the weight u give to said criticism. That's why I'm defending the show. |
vhagar8 said: NthDegree said: @vhagar8 I do admit that TateYuu is the first time in a while where I've found an MC this unbearable. That being said, the reason I post here so much is mostly just because I try to give everyone a timely reply and I just like talking to people with different opinions. By the way, I find it baffling how much more open people seem to be to me criticizing terrible characters and worldbuilding in the series, as opposed to criticizing it for normalizing slavery and misogyny. To me the both of them are completely valid ways of critiquing a show, but I cannot understand why people only get hysterical about the ethical aspects. I'm just saying this because even you were complaining about SJW, as if even discussing about that kind of criticisms is invalid. @Dug_Fin If they were aiming for depicting realistic teenagers, how come everything the MC does is portrayed as justified in the narrative? Now it's like the other heroes do ALL the mistakes while the author tries really hard to show how the MC is always innocent. It's the massive gap between these two that make me unable to buy any of it and makes the MC seem like a Mary Sue that the author is extremely biased for (if you want to be exact, he's like a combination of Sympathetic Sue and Jerk Sue in TV-Tropes terms). I think it's completely fine to enjoy a bad show every now and then. However, I'm simply confused why you would want to defend it online if you also agree with the criticisms (like my previous post). Well, the thing is that I just find all the moral arguments against this show too bad to be taken seriously and create an healty disccussion. Your arguments about world building and characterization seems pretty fair to me tho. About the last part, agreeing that the show has flaws doesn't mean I agree that the show is bad, any show has flaws, not just this one. To me, the flaws that make this show bad in your opinion, make it good instead of amazing. So yes, I agree with your criticism, what I do not agree with is the weight u give to said criticism. That's why I'm defending the show. Then how about these? NthDegree said: Promoting slavery is simple: the MC supports actual slavery by being a slave master. That's bad enough but furthermore I've mostly focused on the slavery bit but as for misogyny EDIT: tl;dr: Guys get to be heroes, girls get to be slaves. Real subtle, guys. Just like my comments on the characters and the world, I consider these equally valid aspects to critique, since it's something that impacts the enjoyment of a large number of people, myself included. Therefore I do think letting it go without discussion would rather ignorant. |
NthDegree said: By the way, I find it baffling how much more open people seem to be to me criticizing terrible characters and worldbuilding in the series, as opposed to criticizing it for normalizing slavery and misogyny. To me the both of them are completely valid ways of critiquing a show, but I cannot understand why people only get hysterical about the ethical aspects. I'm just saying this because even you were complaining about SJW, as if even discussing about that kind of criticisms is invalid. It isn't invalid at all. However, it is unhealthy as vhagar8 pointed out, seeing how the entire discussion thread has turned out. By unhealthy, he implied that you are stretching the whole slavery and misogyny thing into something that is being 'normalized'. Normalized for whom? Me? You? In that fictional world? In the real world? Criticizing it is fine, since it gives others a way to see why you don't like it. Turning it into something which it is clearly incapable of doing, really isn't. |
 Truly a Divine Comedy  |
KreatorX said: NthDegree said: By the way, I find it baffling how much more open people seem to be to me criticizing terrible characters and worldbuilding in the series, as opposed to criticizing it for normalizing slavery and misogyny. To me the both of them are completely valid ways of critiquing a show, but I cannot understand why people only get hysterical about the ethical aspects. I'm just saying this because even you were complaining about SJW, as if even discussing about that kind of criticisms is invalid. It isn't invalid at all. However, it is unhealthy as vhagar8 pointed out, seeing how the entire discussion thread has turned out. By unhealthy, he implied that you are stretching the whole slavery and misogyny thing into something that is being 'normalized'. Normalized for whom? Me? You? In that fictional world? In the real world? Criticizing it is fine, since it gives others a way to see why you don't like it. Turning it into something which it is clearly incapable of doing, really isn't. Your questions seem rhetorical, but I'll answer them anyways. Normalized by the author within our culture (or more specifically any culture where it's being consumed). Surely we can agree that any piece of media we consume belongs to the culture? Ergo, it is normalizing it within it. We can discuss this in further detail, if you wish. |
NthDegree said: KreatorX said: It isn't invalid at all. However, it is unhealthy as vhagar8 pointed out, seeing how the entire discussion thread has turned out. By unhealthy, he implied that you are stretching the whole slavery and misogyny thing into something that is being 'normalized'. Normalized for whom? Me? You? In that fictional world? In the real world? Criticizing it is fine, since it gives others a way to see why you don't like it. Turning it into something which it is clearly incapable of doing, really isn't. Your questions seem rhetorical, but I'll answer them anyways. Normalized by the author within our culture (or more specifically any culture where it's being consumed). Surely we can agree that any piece of media we consume belongs to the culture? Ergo, it is normalizing it within it. We can discuss this in further detail, if you wish. You were asked for whom is the slavery and alleged "misogyny" normalized. Identifying who is doing the alleged normalizing does not answer the question. Secondly, culture has to do with the social behaviors and norms found in society. First, you have to prove that this piece of media is inciting or encouraging slavery and misogyny. To normalize means to establish something as traditional or regular. It's funny since I initially brought up culture in another thread and then, you tried to piggy-back off of that concept and can't even apply the word correctly. |
VeryLTTPJan 12, 2019 4:29 PM
| I read the rising of the sheild hero and became a woman hating slave owner... Said no one ever. To be honest... Even if the story DID actually promote slavery and misogyny actively (rather than the interpretation of others infecting the story as stated above), I'd be fine with it. It's fiction, so long as the story is done well it can have whatever elements and themes it wants. |
VeryLTTP said: KreatorX said: Your questions seem rhetorical, but I'll answer them anyways. Normalized by the author within our culture (or more specifically any culture where it's being consumed). Surely we can agree that any piece of media we consume belongs to the culture? Ergo, it is normalizing it within it. We can discuss this in further detail, if you wish. You were asked for whom is the slavery and alleged "misogyny" normalized. Identifying who is doing the alleged normalizing does not answer the question. Secondly, culture has to do with the social behaviors and norms found in society. First, you have to prove that this piece of media is inciting or encouraging slavery and misogyny. To normalize means to establish something as traditional or regular. It's funny since I initially brought up culture in another thread and then, you tried to piggy-back off of that concept and can't even apply the word correctly. I agree on this. Acknowledgement does not equal endorsement. Slavery did exist in the past yes? Then it isn't weird for an author writing a fictional world to include it. In fact, not including it also says things about the author, fictional or otherwise. As for Naofumi, yes he used it, and yes that is very bad. He is a young man with some serious problems who makes bad decisions sometimes. A good chunk of the story is him making his way past these problems. He can't change the way the world is (yet) so he later exploits the system to provide benefits for his friends, that is NOT endorsing slavery. It's fine to hate him for his mistakes in the beginning, but he does grow as a person, despite his flaws so give him a chance. As for female agency, both Melty and the Queen have it in spades, as well as the Queen's agents, all of whom are super competent and major characters in the story. As well as both Firo and Raph, in fact, besides the princess most of the females in this story are rather competent (and awesome) in general. |
| I'll change this as soon as I think of something clever. |
| I stumbled across this... but MAN does it feel relevant to some of the points being made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6kqYrztWU8 |
EpsilonX said: IMO it's one of the better isekais.I've never heard of this series, but it's very highly-rated after only one episode. What is it that draws people to it? Should I check it out? edit: for the sake of clarity, I'm not trying to bash the series for being popular. I've just heard a lot of people talking about it and was wondering what the reason was. I may check it out if I have time one of these days. |
NthDegree said: vhagar8 said: Well, the thing is that I just find all the moral arguments against this show too bad to be taken seriously and create an healty disccussion. Your arguments about world building and characterization seems pretty fair to me tho. About the last part, agreeing that the show has flaws doesn't mean I agree that the show is bad, any show has flaws, not just this one. To me, the flaws that make this show bad in your opinion, make it good instead of amazing. So yes, I agree with your criticism, what I do not agree with is the weight u give to said criticism. That's why I'm defending the show. Then how about these? NthDegree said: Promoting slavery is simple: the MC supports actual slavery by being a slave master. That's bad enough but furthermore I've mostly focused on the slavery bit but as for misogyny EDIT: tl;dr: Guys get to be heroes, girls get to be slaves. Real subtle, guys. Just like my comments on the characters and the world, I consider these equally valid aspects to critique, since it's something that impacts the enjoyment of a large number of people, myself included. Therefore I do think letting it go without discussion would rather ignorant. Ok, before we even get started we need to clarify something, if the show does not appeal to u it doesn't mean it's bad. Because by that definition every show ever created is bad, literally no show can appeal to everyone. Let's even suppose the show is promoting slavery, well, the fact that it "impacts the enjoyment of a large number of people" is not the show fault. If you're bother by slavery just watch something else. That's the very reason every season we get 50+ anime. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying u can't subjectively dislike it, just saying it's a pretty bad reason for saying the show is objectively bad. So u see, my problem with these type of arguments is that whenever the argument itself is right or wrong it doesn't matter if the point it's trying to prove is wrong to begin with. But whatever, gonna go out of my way for once to answer your arguments: 1. slavery: goddammit, I'm trying not to get salty but how's that even an argument? The protagosist's attitute toward slavery is not as one sided as u make it out to be, but let's even suppose the protagonist is an asshole who buy slave and treat them like shit, what's the problem again? When was decided that the protagonist's attitude reflects the author's point of view and promotes the author's ideals? By that logic death note is promoting murder, and Ginga Eiyuu Densetsu is promoting war (just picked 2 random shows I watched among your high-rated anime). If these examples look stupid to u, well good, because that's exactly how yours look to me 2. Misogyny: I'm sorry, I just can't do this. I tried 4 times to write smth but i just can't take those lines seriously. nothing u said looks like an argument to me. All I'll be saying is that the world would be a far better place if what you described is what misogyny actually is. |
vhagar8Jan 12, 2019 6:39 PM
| Another run-of-the-mill isekai that people are taking way too seriously. |
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Draconalis said: I stumbled across this... but MAN does it feel relevant to some of the points being made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6kqYrztWU8 Wow, if I take anything away from my conversation here now, it's you linking me to this awesome channel, thanks! |
| I'll change this as soon as I think of something clever. |
NthDegree said: Your questions seem rhetorical, but I'll answer them anyways. Normalized by the author within our culture (or more specifically any culture where it's being consumed). Surely we can agree that any piece of media we consume belongs to the culture? Ergo, it is normalizing it within it. We can discuss this in further detail, if you wish. No, they weren't rhetorical as I broke it down into pieces for you to answer. It definitely doesn't normalize slavery/misogyny for me. I don't know if it does for you. In my place it certainly hasn't and if you are talking of Japan, slavery was outlawed in the 1600s (but I'll stretch it by saying they stopped doing it after WW II). All that is left is whether it normalized in that particular fictional world of Shieldbro and it presumably is the case. Especially through the eyes of the main character. It doesn't take much to figure out that his line of thinking that every person is out there to hang him on a pike (especially women), isn't correct and that is to be hammered out over time. Which of-course, is the only "character development" route I can potentially see, ergo, with the help of Raphtalia or side characters. He buys slaves but doesn't see them as slaves and that's the creator's logic which he/she presents in Naofumi, to which I find the MC stupid/hilarious. Is this a ham-fisted way of introducing character development? Arguably so. It could be even deemed cringy if I may add. However, nowhere has this even remotely endorsed the idea that misogyny and slavery is a normal thing to have around, definitely not in the real world. I mean, who is the one to take the so called "blame" in the world? It's a fictional character having that mindset which we know isn't right. Heck, even I can write a piece of fiction where the main female character idolizes the Nazi philosophy and thinks men are only to be measured by the exact size/dimensions of their balls. And this is just a tame example of fiction I am hypothetically releasing into my culture. Is this absurd? Ofcourse! Does it "normalize" Nazi ideology and judging men by the size/dimensions of their balls? No. Bear in mind that I am not here to state whether things make "sense" in that fictional universe. I am only perplexed by how you reached the conclusion that in this very specific example of Shieldbro, it has normalized slavery and misogyny in Japan. That doesn't even form the "appeal" of this show because if it did, then slavery and misogyny would have found an acceptable opinion within Japanese people (atleast within the fraction of the population that consumes anime). |
KreatorXJan 13, 2019 2:42 AM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
DumpsterKing said: From ANN: The fantasy world itself has no unique qualities of its own – for all I know, it may as well be the same setting as Death March to The Parallel World Rhapsody. The only true conflict in this double-length premiere, which is constantly hammered home through the episode's awful monotonous dialogue, is that Naofumi feels like a loser for being stuck as the Shield Guy. It's contrived, silly, and in no way warrants so much runtime. Shields are perfectly capable deadly weapons. People have been murdering other people with shields since the literal dawn of human civilization. Watching a stale cracker of a protagonist get dunked on for an hour because he's been assigned a role that millions of MMO players fulfill just fine every day does not a good premiere make. Even if you gloss over the details of how Myne sets up Naofumi, The Rising of The Shield Hero gives off an excessively grim and gloomy first impression. That's not necessarily a bad thing on its own, but a dark fantasy story needs to offer either some sort of entertainment value or have an interesting thematic purpose behind its intensity. Unfortunately, this series doesn't seem to have either of those at the moment. The only real combat we see amounts to a dude clumsily popping little balloon monsters, which is slightly funny but fails to scratch the old “blood and gore” itch in any satisfying way. As for the story's themes, this premiere spends a lot of time piling misery onto Naofumi while devoting precious little energy to telling us why we should care. Outside of the obvious “people are jerks” message, I never felt like the story was gearing up to ask any interesting moral questions. It's just grumpy and mean-spirited without purpose, which isn't at all fun to watch. If there's a bright spot here, it's that Naofumi's crappy shield forces him to put some real thought into how he's going to defeat even the weakest of monsters. I can see this opening the door for some clever and unconventional dungeon-crawling tactics, especially if he ends up recruiting folks who don't fall into the usual fantasy archetypes. It's also nice to see a series step away from the frequent isekai pitfall of handing everything to the hero on a silver platter, even if this particular example ends up going too far in the other direction. Now, if only we could do something about the RPG menu screens that get shoehorned into all of these shows. I've seen this stuff so often now that I want to beat my head against a wall every time an anime character talks about stats or experience points. The Rising of The Shield Hero has some potential as an antidote to all the bland “easy mode” isekai stories we've been subjected to in recent years, but my concern is that it goes too far in its efforts to make things tough for Naofumi. Maybe I've just gotten too old for this particular brand of dark storytelling, but I need to see much more insightful writing if I'm going to sit through a whole season of people being nasty to one another. Your best bet might be to check back in six weeks or so to see if it's either lightened up or gotten more nuanced in its messaging. This premiere's mundane failings are endemic to the isekai genre, which at its worst represents a hollow shell of masturbatory otaku reference scrabble. Protagonist Iwatani Naofumi opens by telling us he's a “normal otaku,” implying that this work is aimed at an audience where normalcy means deep entrenchment in niche nerd media, specifically the kind where characters only tend to express themselves through tropes from anime or light novels they've experienced before. Soon, Naofumi is transported to an utterly unconvincing fantasy world, where he learns that magic and skills and even personal development all work just like a JRPG, complete with character stats. This kind of world-building has become the default for the isekai genre, where an uninspired author will regurgitate tabletop tropes without much creativity instead of sculpting a living, breathing world. Dreaming of other worlds only as harem-friendly versions of Dragon Quest feels pretty depressing to me, but I realize it's usually meant to be the draw of this creatively anemic genre. Once we've gotten through the clumsy, overlong, and predictable worldbuilding—wait, you know what, I shouldn't just gloss over that stuff. To simply handwave this show's worldbuilding as lazy would ignore how choices like “the four heroes cannot party together” and “the shield hero can only use shields” are delivered not as natural consequences of dramatic circumstance, but literally dictated to our leads through an electronic voiceover that guides all their actions. This is terrible storytelling that feels like a natural consequence of assuming “it's just an RPG” is good enough fantasy worldbuilding. If you're going to be that derivative, why not go all the way and base all your drama on “this happened because the game says I should do this next"? “I'm the greatest but no one appreciates it” is a common premise in isekai, but Shield Hero goes one step further by baking this assumption into the actual lore of its universe. Despite the Shield Hero ostensibly being one of the four people who will save this planet, everyone immediately responds to Naofumi with resentment and derision, presumably because that's how the author sees certain people around him. It'd be hard enough to buy into this under-developed video game world under any circumstances, but the fact that this world's salvation myth has to constantly justify the protagonist's relentless victim complex makes it feel even less like a complex narrative and even more like an unpleasantly bitter venting exercise. THIS. I feel something's off but can't describe it as good as the pros (and because english isn't my native language) |
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| This is going to be a long one... @VeryLTTP Fair enough. The answer is "for our culture". So basically anyone who consumes it. VeryLTTP said: Secondly, culture has to do with the social behaviors and norms found in society. Hold on there. If social behaviors and norms are not culture, what are they? I honestly do not get that statement. @Dug_Fin I never claimed acknowledgement meant endorsement. I have never complained about the show having slavery, only that it is portrayed positively. You know if he truly wanted to treat them as 'friends', there is nothing stopping him from undoing the curse. Since they are his 'friends' it should not be necessary. However, he doesn't. And this is even before he was aware of the exp thing. @vhagar8 If it was only me, there would be no need for me make these long arguments. The reality is that it is an aspect that influences a large amount of people's enjoyment, not just me. It is true that not all media is for everyone, but those aspects should at least be acknowledged. For those who don't care about it, no harm is done and those who do get vital information to stay away. You are free do decide on whether it bothers you personally. However, I find trying to pretend that those aspects don't exist intellectually dishonest. 1. Let's take a look at your examples: In Death Note the story and the grand majority of the characters frames Light as evil. He's a villain protagonist, so he naturally commits villainous acts. Unless you are claiming Naofumi is a villain, I don't see how their actions can be compared. As for LOGH, the story acknowledges the horrible consequences the war and the actions of our MCs may have. For example, In the both DN and LOGH we can see that no matter how well intentioned you are, those actions cause suffering. Meanwhile TateYuu pretends that as long as you're not evil cartoon character, slavery is completely okay and even the slaves are happy. As for 2, I can't respond to something that doesn't exist. @KreatorX The fact something is outlawed doesn't mean it has disappeared completely. For example human trafficking is still a big problem and modern slavery also does exist. For example if you have heard of the news about how Qatar is holding soccer world cup, you'd know that the infrastructure for it is being built by what has been described as slavery. Basically they import workers from other countries and their boss confiscates their passport, so they won't be able to leave unless they work in bad conditions. People have literally died there. However, a lot of countries care more about soccer than slavery, which is why the tournament still gets held. Here's an article for more info: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/world-cup-2022-qatars-workers-slaves-building-mausoleums-stadiums-modern-slavery-kafala-a7980816.html So if we express positive depictions of slavery in media, people may feel less inclined to stand up against this type of thing. Or they may start thinking that as long as there is no overt physical abuse it's fine to have slaves, similar to Naofumi. However, the reality is that regardless of whether abuse exists, a slave's freedom is taken away, which in itself is unethical. |
NthDegree said: This is going to be a long one... @VeryLTTP Fair enough. The answer is "for our culture". So basically anyone who consumes it. VeryLTTP said: Secondly, culture has to do with the social behaviors and norms found in society. Hold on there. If social behaviors and norms are not culture, what are they? I honestly do not get that statement. The heck are you asking about? I said that culture involves social behaviors and norms found in society and then, you ask a question assuming that I said the exact opposite. To normalize something within a culture, that means a social behavior has to be established as traditional or the norm in society. For slavery and so-called "misogyny" to be normalized by a light novel series, then the series would have to actively incite and encourage readers to think slavery and "misogyny" are okay, and should practice them. As a result, the claim that slavery and "misogyny" are being normalized within culture is a rather drastic one that cannot be supported with feasible evidence. For one thing, you have to prove that there was intent from the author. Secondly, you also have to prove that there is a causation between reading this series and an uptick of "misogyny" and slavery. However, that also means you have to prove that there is an uptick in the first place. |
| It's a Good anime, the score is too high in my opinion though. Gotta wait till next ep to see if I drop it or not. |
NthDegree said: @VeryLTTP Whoopsies, I misread. Sorry about that. So what you are saying is that behaviors are culture but pieces of media like anime aren't? You should refrain from the complex question fallacy. Ask genuine questions rather than questions that assume what is said. Social behaviors are one variable that formulates a culture. Pieces of media are products of a culture since they are written/produced with social behaviors and norms of society in mind. Media can be used to change culture, but again, if you are to claim that the author of Shield Hero intended to change culture, then you have to back that up with evidence. |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: @VeryLTTP Whoopsies, I misread. Sorry about that. So what you are saying is that behaviors are culture but pieces of media like anime aren't? You should refrain from the complex question fallacy. Ask genuine questions rather than questions that assume what is said. Social behaviors are one variable that formulates a culture. Pieces of media are products of a culture since they are written/produced with social behaviors and norms of society in mind. Media can be used to change culture, but again, if you are to claim that the author of Shield Hero intended to change culture, then you have to back that up with evidence. Well, in that case, do you agree that TateYuu at least normalizes it within media culture then? If not behavioral one? |
NthDegree said: Well, in that case, do you agree that TateYuu at least normalizes it within media culture then? If not behavioral one? No, because the intent of normalization has not been adequately proven. |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: Well, in that case, do you agree that TateYuu at least normalizes it within media culture then? If not behavioral one? No, because the intent of normalization has not been adequately proven. Does the intent matter? Do you agree that you can still do something even if you don't intend it? |
NthDegree said: Does the intent matter? Do you agree that you can still do something even if you don't intend it? Yes, the intent matters. There's a difference between depiction and promotion which I have just pointed out in another thread. Your second question makes little sense in the context of this discussion. Now you're just throwing random questions around for the sake of it. Actually, let me reframe that second question to show how ridiculous it is. Do you agree that people can still shoot other people even though Call of Duty does not intend to encourage them to shoot other people? |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: Does the intent matter? Do you agree that you can still do something even if you don't intend it? Yes, the intent matters. There's a difference between depiction and promotion which I have just pointed out in another thread. Your second question makes little sense in the context of this discussion. Now you're just throwing random questions around for the sake of it. Actually, let me reframe that second question to show how ridiculous it is. Do you agree that people can still shoot other people even though Call of Duty does not intend to encourage them to shoot other people? Well, CoD is a military shooter so I think if anything it promotes the army. Isn't it even sponsored by it? If you want to make a case for promoting violence I could see people saying that about something like Hatred though and I do think it's appropriate to at least bring the topic up while discussing it. By the way you did not answer to my second question, so I'll ask it again: Do you agree that you can still do something even if you don't intend it? |
NthDegree said: Well, CoD is a military shooter so I think if anything it promotes the army. Isn't it even sponsored by it? If you want to make a case for promoting violence I could see people saying that about something like Hatred though and I do think it's appropriate to at least bring the topic up while discussing it. Same thing can be said about GTAV, but I don't see people haphazardly shooting up a scene on the streets. Just because violence is depicted, that doesn't mean violence is promoted. The principle equally applies to this series. By the way you did not answer to my second question, so I'll ask it again: Do you agree that you can still do something even if you don't intend it? Like I die from disease even though I don't intend to die? I can easily come up with even more examples to show how poor this question applies to this discussion... Do you agree that usually when you do something, it is consciously done with intent? |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: Well, CoD is a military shooter so I think if anything it promotes the army. Isn't it even sponsored by it? If you want to make a case for promoting violence I could see people saying that about something like Hatred though and I do think it's appropriate to at least bring the topic up while discussing it. Same thing can be said about GTAV, but I don't see people haphazardly shooting up a scene on the streets. Just because violence is depicted, that doesn't mean violence is promoted. The principle equally applies to this series. By the way you did not answer to my second question, so I'll ask it again: Do you agree that you can still do something even if you don't intend it? Like I die from disease even though I don't intend to die? I can easily come up with even more examples to show how poor this question applies to this discussion... Do you agree that usually when you do something, it is consciously done with intent? When you intend to do something, you usually do it. However, actions may have unintentional consequences and that is what I believe to be the case here. I can't really argue about GTA because I haven't personally played it nor am I familiar with its story. |
NthDegree said: When you intend to do something, you usually do it. However, actions may have unintentional consequences and that is what I believe to be the case here. But you never brought up that point until now. So you have effectively answered "most of the time, no" to your own question. And again with the hypotheticals. This is the same problem with the "kinda imply" claim. Something may happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will happen. I can't really argue about GTA because I haven't personally played it nor am I familiar with its story. Oh cool, because your arguments remind me of Jack Thompson though you won't be flattered with that comparison... |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: When you intend to do something, you usually do it. However, actions may have unintentional consequences and that is what I believe to be the case here. But you never brought up that point until now. So you have effectively answered "most of the time, no" to your own question. And again with the hypotheticals. This is the same problem with the "kinda imply" claim. Something may happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will happen. Absolute certainty is very rare in this universe, you know. Things aren't that black and white, especially when it comes to people and social issues. All we can do is work within reasonable bounds of uncertainty. In general if someone claims to know something with absolute certainty they're usually either lying or delusional. |
NthDegree said: Absolute certainty is very rare in this universe, you know. Things aren't that black and white, especially when it comes to people and social issues. All we can do is work within reasonable bounds of uncertainty. In general if someone claims to know something with absolute certainty they're usually either lying or delusional. Regardless, you are arguing among the grounds of the Appeal to Possibility fallacy. Just because the possibility is there, you don't immediately assume the consequences will happen. |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: Absolute certainty is very rare in this universe, you know. Things aren't that black and white, especially when it comes to people and social issues. All we can do is work within reasonable bounds of uncertainty. In general if someone claims to know something with absolute certainty they're usually either lying or delusional. Regardless, you are arguing among the grounds of the Appeal to Possibility fallacy. Just because the possibility is there, you don't immediately assume the consequences will happen. Obviously, but I'm arguing it is probable. |
NthDegree said: @vhagar8 If it was only me, there would be no need for me make these long arguments. The reality is that it is an aspect that influences a large amount of people's enjoyment, not just me. It is true that not all media is for everyone, but those aspects should at least be acknowledged. For those who don't care about it, no harm is done and those who do get vital information to stay away. You are free do decide on whether it bothers you personally. However, I find trying to pretend that those aspects don't exist intellectually dishonest. 1. Let's take a look at your examples: In Death Note the story and the grand majority of the characters frames Light as evil. He's a villain protagonist, so he naturally commits villainous acts. Unless you are claiming Naofumi is a villain, I don't see how their actions can be compared. As for LOGH, the story acknowledges the horrible consequences the war and the actions of our MCs may have. For example, In the both DN and LOGH we can see that no matter how well intentioned you are, those actions cause suffering. Meanwhile TateYuu pretends that as long as you're not evil cartoon character, slavery is completely okay and even the slaves are happy. As for 2, I can't respond to something that doesn't exist. When did I say it was just u or that we should pretend the aspect doesn't exist? I just said that saying an anime is bad because ur bothered by an aspect of the show is a wrong argument. Becuase literally every show is bad by that definition. That doesn't mean said aspect doesn't exist, ur free to say u dislike whatever u want for whatever reason, all I'm saying is that u can't use it as an argument when talking to other people. The number of people who're bothered by said aspect means shit, it could be you or a trillion people the argument is still bad. About 1. I said that your claim to me look as absurd as saying death note promotes murder, it wasn't meant to be taken as an actual critic to the show but ok. |
NthDegree said: Obviously, but I'm arguing it is probable. But you haven't proven that it is probable nor have you actually argued that is is probable. I have checked across multiple threads and I did not find any comment where you made that specific claim, let alone showing proof for it. |
vhagar8 said: NthDegree said: @vhagar8 If it was only me, there would be no need for me make these long arguments. The reality is that it is an aspect that influences a large amount of people's enjoyment, not just me. It is true that not all media is for everyone, but those aspects should at least be acknowledged. For those who don't care about it, no harm is done and those who do get vital information to stay away. You are free do decide on whether it bothers you personally. However, I find trying to pretend that those aspects don't exist intellectually dishonest. 1. Let's take a look at your examples: In Death Note the story and the grand majority of the characters frames Light as evil. He's a villain protagonist, so he naturally commits villainous acts. Unless you are claiming Naofumi is a villain, I don't see how their actions can be compared. As for LOGH, the story acknowledges the horrible consequences the war and the actions of our MCs may have. For example, In the both DN and LOGH we can see that no matter how well intentioned you are, those actions cause suffering. Meanwhile TateYuu pretends that as long as you're not evil cartoon character, slavery is completely okay and even the slaves are happy. As for 2, I can't respond to something that doesn't exist. When did I say it was just u or that we should pretend the aspect doesn't exist? I just said that saying an anime is bad because ur bothered by an aspect of the show is a wrong argument. Becuase literally every show is bad by that definition. That doesn't mean said aspect doesn't exist, ur free to say u dislike whatever u want for whatever reason, all I'm saying is that u can't use it as an argument when talking to other people. The number of people who're bothered by said aspect means shit, it could be you or a trillion people the argument is still bad. About 1. I said that your claim to me look as absurd as saying death note promotes murder, it wasn't meant to be taken as an actual critic to the show but ok. I hope you realize that you could make that point about any argument, since art is inherently subjective. The aspects we critique are defined by what people in general care about. And seeing the controversy, people clearly DO care about the slavery/misogyny combo this series has. Therefore addressing that is an important part of critique. 1. I simply wanted to show that how TateYuu treats slavery/women is clearly different from how those shows treat their respective heavy topics. Don't worry, I don't actually think that's how you think of those shows. @VeryLTTP My exact phrasing may be different but it essentially all boils down to 'there is a significant possibility of'. Nitpicking much? |
NthDegree said: @VeryLTTP My exact phrasing may be different but it essentially all boils down to 'there is a significant possibility of'. Nitpicking much? That was not how I saw it. I checked if you said "there is a significant possibility" and it's the same story with "it is probable". That is not nitpicking. And you forgot the supporting the claim with evidence part. Just saying that it is probably or there is a "significant possibility" is not good enough. All you have done is claiming something may happen. "May" doesn't mean probably or significantly possible. "May" indicates a certain measure of possibility, but it can range from not that possible to significantly possible. |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: @VeryLTTP My exact phrasing may be different but it essentially all boils down to 'there is a significant possibility of'. Nitpicking much? That was not how I saw it. I checked if you said "there is a significant possibility" and it's the same story with "it is probable". That is not nitpicking. And you forgot the supporting the claim with evidence part. Just saying that it is probably or there is a "significant possibility" is not good enough. All you have done is claiming something may happen. "May" doesn't mean probably or significantly possible. "May" indicates a certain measure of possibility, but it can range from not that possible to significantly possible. Okay, now you are just nitpicking. Can we go back to the actual topic or would you rather stop here? So do you agree that Naofumi's use of slavery is depicted positively? |
NthDegree said: Okay, now you are just nitpicking. Can we go back to the actual topic or would you rather stop here? How is it nitpicking? To use words correctly, you have to make sure that their definitions fit the context. Like I said before, this is similar to your "kinda imply" issue. You claim that something is probable or significantly possible. However, your initial claim applied a qualifier, "kinda"(which adds uncertainty), to a word that is inherently uncertain, "imply". Pointing out at the contradiction is not nitpicking. So do you agree that Naofumi's use of slavery is depicted positively? Stop derailing from the flaws of your argument. If you can't explain how they are not flaws, then your arguments don't hold water. |
NthDegree said: @KreatorX The fact something is outlawed doesn't mean it has disappeared completely. For example human trafficking is still a big problem and modern slavery also does exist. For example if you have heard of the news about how Qatar is holding soccer world cup, you'd know that the infrastructure for it is being built by what has been described as slavery. Basically they import workers from other countries and their boss confiscates their passport, so they won't be able to leave unless they work in bad conditions. People have literally died there. However, a lot of countries care more about soccer than slavery, which is why the tournament still gets held. So if we express positive depictions of slavery in media, people may feel less inclined to stand up against this type of thing. Or they may start thinking that as long as there is no overt physical abuse it's fine to have slaves, similar to Naofumi. However, the reality is that regardless of whether abuse exists, a slave's freedom is taken away, which in itself is unethical. Why are you going into Qatar ? Do the people who built the infrastructure watch and approve of Shieldbro ? Is Shieldbro a fictional piece of art created by them or made for them in mind ? I don't see the correlation of Japan outlawing slavery to modern slavery in a middle eastern nation. Dude, no one who is sane is denying slavery is bad in the real world. Its unethical nature towards humans is why many of us know it is wrong, let alone it be normalized in the first place. I won't speak much about the middle east since I just don't see them in a favourable light thanks to their level of religious inclinations. As for me, I certainly haven't felt the urge to go ham and drag any woman walking past my door into submission, in order to make her my slave. Nevertheless, I am not even a representative of Japanese people, from whose culture this piece of fiction has come to light. Shieldbro is such a tame comparison to other kinds of fictional shit Japan has come up with. Seeing the amount of content floating around, one could make a loose assumption on Japan's culture by claiming pedophilia and rape are absolutely normalized over there. Nobody bats an eyelid over what happens to fictional characters coughed up by humans. Regardless, this discussion is not about those two fetishes. I shall state that I would have agreed with your particular notion of things being normalized IF there was an actual recorded event in recent times, of people approving of slavery on reality shows or given a free-pass by the Japanese govt. Favourable reception of such things would have been the guaranteed indicator of slavery being normalized over there. However, the reality is that regardless of whether abuse exists, a slave's freedom is taken away, which in itself is unethical. Very true! And I am nowhere denying this. However, if you are the kind to think that the representation shown in Shieldbro is by any means encouraging those slaves in real life themselves to be more accepting of their circumstances then I still fail to understand where you are coming from.I shall ignore the hypothetical situation of a person willingly becoming a 'slave' to another person out of their own free will, as ironic as it may sound. It sounds more like a follower but I digress. Slavery is bad and I myself don't know why it is used as a motif in the story, heck, the whole process of dominion over others have been done in a different or better manner, much like how Crests were obtained and used to empower others in Grancrest Senki (just watch the first couple of episodes to see what I am getting at). This is arguably a valid criticism. However, stretching a piece of unreal media (cannot emphasize any more on this) into normalizing things in real world isn't healthy criticism, because the very premise lies on being unable to discern between fact and fiction. Normalizing implies that everyone or an overwhelming majority fails at this basic task. |
KreatorXJan 13, 2019 4:05 PM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
Dug_Fin said: Draconalis said: I stumbled across this... but MAN does it feel relevant to some of the points being made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6kqYrztWU8 Wow, if I take anything away from my conversation here now, it's you linking me to this awesome channel, thanks! Whelp... I literally stumbled across it but... I aim to please? You're welcome? I'll take credit for good things, is what I'm saying here. :p |
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