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What is it about Kiritsugu, that makes him more popular than even Shiro - leading hero of Fate franchise? (SPOILERS)

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Nov 17, 2018 10:26 AM

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Elfezen said:
Isn't Shirou Emiya just the main character of Fate/Stay Night? I am not sure if the whole Fate/ franchise has a main character since it has many different series such as Fate/Grand Order, Fate/Apocrypha, Fate/Extella and each have their own characters.


shirou is the MC for fate hallow ataraxia, and fate stay Night.

as for FGO, they have their own Femc and MC.

different MC for Fate apo and Fate/EX has its own Femc and MC

the discussion is about fate zero MC vs fate stay night MC in terms of character development

 
Nov 17, 2018 3:00 PM

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Most normal people find Shirou's ideas too out of touch with reality; it's as simple as that. Archer: (the popular Shirou), is also more relatable.

(Better than Shinji though).
 
Nov 17, 2018 11:07 PM

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Because Shirou's idealism and whiteknighting(telling saber not to fight is like wtf, one quick look at the siuation tells you she's more suited for that kind of work than he'll ever be), gets really annoying while Kiritsugu is more of a cool martyr. Also, UBW shirou is so over the top that it hurts seeing him beat Gilgamesh out of his ass.

 
Nov 18, 2018 9:12 AM

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Aemnesias said:
Because Shirou's idealism and whiteknighting(telling saber not to fight is like wtf, one quick look at the siuation tells you she's more suited for that kind of work than he'll ever be), gets really annoying while Kiritsugu is more of a cool martyr. Also, UBW shirou is so over the top that it hurts seeing him beat Gilgamesh out of his ass.


if you thought UBW made a joke out of gilgamesh, wait for HF where his character is basically a joke

and while his whiteknighting is obnoxious, it's motive is even worse, sexism to a freaking servant, hilarious!
 
Nov 18, 2018 12:34 PM

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Phantomnocomics said:
Aemnesias said:
Because Shirou's idealism and whiteknighting(telling saber not to fight is like wtf, one quick look at the siuation tells you she's more suited for that kind of work than he'll ever be), gets really annoying while Kiritsugu is more of a cool martyr. Also, UBW shirou is so over the top that it hurts seeing him beat Gilgamesh out of his ass.


if you thought UBW made a joke out of gilgamesh, wait for HF where his character is basically a joke

and while his whiteknighting is obnoxious, it's motive is even worse, sexism to a freaking servant, hilarious!


Dw I read the VN a few years ago. If I remember correctly he just gets rekt as he attacks Angra Mainyu/Sakura at night?
Also, it's not so much Gilgamesh getting beaten that I dislike, but more Shiro being stronger than him while only having a servant's arm and powering through. Like, I legit think Ea is a joke weapon at this point, since it just seems that it does nothing meaningful whenever he uses it.

 
Nov 18, 2018 12:35 PM

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probably cuz Kiritsugu is way hotter than Shirou tbh


THAT'S LIFE
& I TELL YA I CAN'T DENY IT
.

 
Nov 18, 2018 12:52 PM

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Aemnesias said:
Phantomnocomics said:


if you thought UBW made a joke out of gilgamesh, wait for HF where his character is basically a joke

and while his whiteknighting is obnoxious, it's motive is even worse, sexism to a freaking servant, hilarious!


Dw I read the VN a few years ago. If I remember correctly he just gets rekt as he attacks Angra Mainyu/Sakura at night?
Also, it's not so much Gilgamesh getting beaten that I dislike, but more Shiro being stronger than him while only having a servant's arm and powering through. Like, I legit think Ea is a joke weapon at this point, since it just seems that it does nothing meaningful whenever he uses it.


if you thought that was bad, check out fate apo MC

the MC basically is HF shirou but worse, survived a fatal wound through being powered up by a servant's part, even though that by itself is lethal and somehow survived that throughout all of the story and no joke, got another part of another servant alongside their powers, and became a hybrid of a Pseudo servant and a demi servant and fought against a ruler servant and no spoilers, but the ending makes me wanna kill myself when i watch it
 
Nov 18, 2018 1:59 PM
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NthDegree said:
Phantomnocomics said:


well, Fate kaleid shirou and FSN shirou are not the same shirou, so......and the topic is about FSN shirou.

in HF, he's quite OP but that doesn't mean make him a cool character nor does it change his flaws as a character, it Only means the plot was character convenient than even UBW.

Urgh, it gets even worse than UBW in HF? I dropped reading the VN at the beginning of HF because I hated the previous two routes and could not take more of the same garbage. Plus, having some extended wet dream at the beginning was not exactly the most tasteful start there is.

But yeah, if his power inflation gets even worse in HF, I'm glad I made the choice...

HeroicIdealism said:
Because Fate/Zero is the only great anime of the Fate franchise, and anime is more popular than VNs.



How the fuck is Shirou sexist? Because he wants to save everyone, including Saber, who is (on the outside) just a beautiful young girl who is fighting against disturbingly monstrous servants?
Ffs, man, Shirou doesn't even force women in the kitchen or anything, in fact, if he had it his way, he would have been the only one cooking, but Sakura insisted on cooking for him.

Shirou's sexism is the most blatant in Fate route of the VN. There he constantly keeps telling Saber that she should not fight because of her gender. Saying that you should not do something simply because of gender is the textbook definition of sexism.

In Shirou's case it's not only sexist but also idiotic, since Saber is much stronger than he is, so it just makes it doubly infuriating.


Shirou's 'sexism' is just a knee-jerk reaction because he can’t articulate his actual problem, which is that he can’t stand the idea of anyone getting hurt on his behalf, and have it become a symptom of self-loathing rather than ingrained sexism.

However you people simply resorted to MUH SEXISM like a bunch of feminist tards. Go spew your feminist trash on tumblr.

 
Nov 18, 2018 2:04 PM

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Zekerets said:
NthDegree said:

Urgh, it gets even worse than UBW in HF? I dropped reading the VN at the beginning of HF because I hated the previous two routes and could not take more of the same garbage. Plus, having some extended wet dream at the beginning was not exactly the most tasteful start there is.

But yeah, if his power inflation gets even worse in HF, I'm glad I made the choice...


Shirou's sexism is the most blatant in Fate route of the VN. There he constantly keeps telling Saber that she should not fight because of her gender. Saying that you should not do something simply because of gender is the textbook definition of sexism.

In Shirou's case it's not only sexist but also idiotic, since Saber is much stronger than he is, so it just makes it doubly infuriating.


Shirou's 'sexism' is just a knee-jerk reaction because he can’t articulate his actual problem, which is that he can’t stand the idea of anyone getting hurt on his behalf, and have it become a symptom of self-loathing rather than ingrained sexism.

However you people simply resorted to MUH SEXISM like a bunch of feminist tards. Go spew your feminist trash on tumblr.

I don't care whether the cause is knee-jerk or anything else. I'm simply stating the fact that excluding someone solely based on gender is sexism.

Can we agree on this definition?
My condolences to KyoAni #PrayForKyoani
 
Nov 18, 2018 2:09 PM
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NthDegree said:
Zekerets said:


Shirou's 'sexism' is just a knee-jerk reaction because he can’t articulate his actual problem, which is that he can’t stand the idea of anyone getting hurt on his behalf, and have it become a symptom of self-loathing rather than ingrained sexism.

However you people simply resorted to MUH SEXISM like a bunch of feminist tards. Go spew your feminist trash on tumblr.

I don't care whether the cause is knee-jerk or anything else. I'm simply stating the fact that excluding someone solely based on gender is sexism.

Can we agree on this definition?


I don't care about MUH SEXISM, I don't give two shits about this irrelevant feminist talk-point. Everything is sexist, everything is misogynistic to you lol.
 
Nov 18, 2018 2:12 PM

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Zekerets said:
NthDegree said:

I don't care whether the cause is knee-jerk or anything else. I'm simply stating the fact that excluding someone solely based on gender is sexism.

Can we agree on this definition?


I don't care about MUH SEXISM, I don't give two shits about this irrelevant feminist talk-point. Everything is sexist, everything is misogynistic to you lol.

You did not answer my question. Do you think excluding someone based on gender is sexist?
My condolences to KyoAni #PrayForKyoani
 
Nov 18, 2018 2:19 PM
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NthDegree said:
Zekerets said:


I don't care about MUH SEXISM, I don't give two shits about this irrelevant feminist talk-point. Everything is sexist, everything is misogynistic to you lol.

You did not answer my question. Do you think excluding someone based on gender is sexist?


Sexism is just a word invented by ideologues in order to destroy and bring down natural gender roles. If a man puts himself in danger for a woman's sake and he's called a filthy sexist for it then this world is fucked up lol.
 
Nov 18, 2018 2:39 PM

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Zekerets said:
NthDegree said:

You did not answer my question. Do you think excluding someone based on gender is sexist?


Sexism is just a word invented by ideologues in order to destroy and bring down natural gender roles. If a man puts himself in danger for a woman's sake and he's called a filthy sexist for it then this world is fucked up lol.

You STILL did not answer to my question. Do you think excluding someone based on gender is sexist?

It sounds to me that your own ideology is preventing you from accepting the facts. Trying to squirm your way out of a question is not very convincing, you know.
My condolences to KyoAni #PrayForKyoani
 
Nov 18, 2018 3:01 PM
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NthDegree said:
Zekerets said:


Sexism is just a word invented by ideologues in order to destroy and bring down natural gender roles. If a man puts himself in danger for a woman's sake and he's called a filthy sexist for it then this world is fucked up lol.

You STILL did not answer to my question. Do you think excluding someone based on gender is sexist?

It sounds to me that your own ideology is preventing you from accepting the facts. Trying to squirm your way out of a question is not very convincing, you know.


Yes, it's sexist to exclude someone based on gender, how can it not be since it's a feminist invented word. I'm sexist and proud of it. It's not a bad thing, it's not valid criticism, it's a meaningless word. Anime is the most sexist medium in the world dude, you should probably pick up another hobby since you're supporting a sexist misogynistic industry.
 
Nov 18, 2018 3:14 PM

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For years, I hated the "read the VN" mantra that was thrown around whenever someone questioned Shirou. I never hated Shirou, but I was fascinated by how the narrative questioned his ideals. I eventually decided to look up scenes from the VN and - lo and behold - the anime adaptations simply don't do his character arc justice. My respect for him increased tremendously with this one line:

"It isn't a mistake!"

Shirou's character arc was about accepting that - even with supernatural powers - it really was impossible to save everyone, but that doesn't make it foolish or wrong to do so. It wasn't about the end of having saving people; it was about the act of saving people that he saw was so beautiful. Thus, he treads forward in spite of knowing what awaits him at the end, because it was still worth it, even if saved no one.

Kiritsugu's character arc is more mundane: to realize the folly in his "the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many mentality" whereby if had continued to just seek out and kill off the next most dangerous person he could find, he'd eventaully find himself in a world where he was the only evil person left. He was operating under the notion that he had the power to eliminate evil, and collapsed when he realized how pathetic he was.

Personally, I find Shirou's integrity in spite of futility to be far more respectable and a more compelling theme than the "silly rabbit, heroism is stupid" moral that Kiritsugu walked away with in Fate/Zero.

It's no secret that I despise the post-modern mantra that plagues criticisms on character writing, that "characters must have flaws or they're mary sues/uninteresting", that "black and white morality is bad writing", and that "good guys are boring". I can't disagree with this sentiment more, and it doesn't help that the echo chamber that is mainstream media has not only perpetuated this ideology, but made it louder than ever. Indeed, the West seems to have developed a cultural aversion to "young, idealistic/heroic protagonists" over the past couple of decades. It's most notable in the JRPG and anime fandoms, be it on the JRPG or anime subreddits, Neogaf, ResetEra, Animesuki, etc, where people will always leap to call any protagonist who empathizes with his enemies or actually struggles to make progress against competent enemies is labeled as "whiny" or "stupid". Post-modernist cynicism really has become a scourge upon our culture. I find so-called "flawed characters" like Commander Shepard and Geralt of Rivia to be among the most uninteresting and repulsive protagonists I've ever seen, cheating on their lovers and touting that they must kick a few puppies for the greater good. That's not nuanced. That's not thought provoking. That's not compelling. That's flat out despicable and makes them look weak willed. Their "flaws" are superficial attributes at best. Tropes and cliches are not bad; they are tools. It is how a trope is used that will determine whether the character is good or not. There is a such thing as a compelling selfish character; Edward Elric and Saitama for example.
 
Nov 18, 2018 3:16 PM

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Zekerets said:
NthDegree said:

You STILL did not answer to my question. Do you think excluding someone based on gender is sexist?

It sounds to me that your own ideology is preventing you from accepting the facts. Trying to squirm your way out of a question is not very convincing, you know.


Yes, it's sexist to exclude someone based on gender, how can it not be since it's a feminist invented word. I'm sexist and proud of it. It's not a bad thing, it's not valid criticism, it's a meaningless word. Anime is the most sexist medium in the world dude, you should probably pick up another hobby since you're supporting a sexist misogynistic industry.

It sure doesn't sound like you're proud of it, seeing how long you tried to dodge my question, but oh well. As long as you advertise it like that, us women know to avoid you. Yeah, I'm no "dude". Nice assumption there.

I think the bigger deal here is that you just insulted anime in general, which I'm quite sure plenty of people have an issue with. Just because some super sexist hentai might exist, it doesn't mean that for example Miyazaki movies should automatically be labeled under the same trash. Saying that tells me more about your tastes than anime in general.
My condolences to KyoAni #PrayForKyoani
 
Nov 18, 2018 5:32 PM

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Well... Probably because Shirou is a really controversial character compared to Kiritsugu. You got people who like him, you got people who hate him. Some don't understand his 'sexism' in Fate and his complicated ideals, some do.

This is how life is when it comes to opinions.

Personally, I like Shirou (Yes, VN Shirou) a bit more than Kiritsugu though I do like both. Probably because of the fact that I have a hard time agreeing with almost everything Kiritsugu does. Makes sense, he's a anti-hero and they're not really my type of characters. I still like him though.

Shirou is...really complicated. Ever since the Fuyuki fire after the events of Fate/Zero, he's practically kind of dead mentally. He genuinely doesn't know how to make himself happy. He only wants to give happiness to everyone except himself.

Also, his 'sexist' attitude in Fate was actually more of a "I don't want you protecting me because I feel like my own life has no value" rather than sexist. That attitude still pissed me off a bit but Shirou did apologize to Saber though after realizing how wrong he was. I find his constant worrying over Saber in Fate despite knowing how strong she is understandable. I can actually relate to him for thinking that.

But the scenes that got my heart the most regarding Fate Shirou, is the Saber vs Gilgamesh 1st encounter scene and the
. What Shirou did in those scenes made me wish I could be as strong as him. Made me wish that a guy like him actually exist in real life.

I can understand why people don't like him and I'm fine with that. People have their own opinions of what they think of him.

Help, I'm hooked into the Fate series (not all) and am obsessed with Shirou x Saber!
Also, forever hoping for a ufotable remake of the Fate route!
 
Nov 18, 2018 5:45 PM
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NthDegree said:
Zekerets said:


Yes, it's sexist to exclude someone based on gender, how can it not be since it's a feminist invented word. I'm sexist and proud of it. It's not a bad thing, it's not valid criticism, it's a meaningless word. Anime is the most sexist medium in the world dude, you should probably pick up another hobby since you're supporting a sexist misogynistic industry.

It sure doesn't sound like you're proud of it, seeing how long you tried to dodge my question, but oh well. As long as you advertise it like that, us women know to avoid you. Yeah, I'm no "dude". Nice assumption there.

I think the bigger deal here is that you just insulted anime in general, which I'm quite sure plenty of people have an issue with. Just because some super sexist hentai might exist, it doesn't mean that for example Miyazaki movies should automatically be labeled under the same trash. Saying that tells me more about your tastes than anime in general.


I never dodged your question, your question is simply inconsequential, you just asked me if I think that the definition of sexism is the definition of sexism. Well duh, yeah 'discrimination' on the basis of sex is the literal definition of sexism. I just don't care about that term. Sexism is natural and japanese culture embraces so it's obvious that most anime reflects that.
 
Nov 18, 2018 5:59 PM

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Zekerets said:
NthDegree said:

It sure doesn't sound like you're proud of it, seeing how long you tried to dodge my question, but oh well. As long as you advertise it like that, us women know to avoid you. Yeah, I'm no "dude". Nice assumption there.

I think the bigger deal here is that you just insulted anime in general, which I'm quite sure plenty of people have an issue with. Just because some super sexist hentai might exist, it doesn't mean that for example Miyazaki movies should automatically be labeled under the same trash. Saying that tells me more about your tastes than anime in general.


I never dodged your question, your question is simply inconsequential, you just asked me if I think that the definition of sexism is the definition of sexism. Well duh, yeah 'discrimination' on the basis of sex is the literal definition of sexism. I just don't care about that term. Sexism is natural and japanese culture embraces so it's obvious that most anime reflects that.

If you say Japanese culture embraces it, you know nothing about Japanese culture.

Just a few months ago I remember a case where they had manipulated medical school entrance exam results to artificially increase the amount of men who got it. It was all over the (Japanese) news back then with people calling it severe discrimination and sexism. And you know all those posters warning about chikan in Japanese metro stations? Claiming that discrimination based on gender is somehow accepted there is simply you projecting your own wishes on a foreign culture. As someone who has actually lived there, I find this ridiculous.
My condolences to KyoAni #PrayForKyoani
 
Nov 25, 2018 4:23 AM

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Very simple answer: without Kiritsugu there wouldn't be a Shiro.
Kiritsugu is my favorite character because he does,what no one would do.
He killed his own father,killed Natali,killed his own wife and daughter to save the world.

No one would do this. No one.
 
May 22, 12:21 PM

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Because he's an edgy manchild. Nothing "deep" about him. Secondaries like to watch a stoic tragic guy who kills people with guns.
 
May 23, 12:47 AM

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it might have something to do with kiritsugu being such a badass, philosophical, and DEEEEEP character
while shirou is unfortunately just a bland, dumbass shounen protagonist

P.S kiritsugu treats saber like a tool throughout the entire show and never listens to what she has to say, so much better than shirou amirite
 
Sep 18, 1:47 AM

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Shirou doesnt want Saber to get hurt for him=Sexist.

Kiritsugu doesnt talk to Saber because she is a young woman, treats her a a thrown away tool, shits on her ideals on her face, betrays her with no explanation= great character.

What can I say, people are retards and love the shit out of edgy, coat wearing, trigger happy cowards while they hate characters with actual depth.

But what do I know. I like the sexist ptsd filled orphan more than some magical gun user.
 
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