Manaban said: [GIANT ASS INDIGNANT WALL OF TEXT] ...So yeah. Your concept of consensuality is dumb and rooted in a single area of how a character can be portrayed. A character can be consensual and still be reserved and not necessarily flaunt their sexuality, but regardless I'd make the issue of whether or not it's consensual to be practically fucking nothing in the eyes of an actual consumer of this type of media. I stand against it. It's not additive, it's limiting and restrictive. And I'm against that. Uh, no. I never once said that all fanservice needed to feature characters who's attitudes towards their own sexuality were as proud as Panty's or Bayonetta's. I said I dislike fanservice where the female character is being is clearly uncomfortable and unwilling towards being portrayed as sexual. I cited Panty and Stocking and Bayonetta because they were the two most prominent examples of media that DIDN'T fall into this problem. If I misunderstood your perspective, its because you were arguing against me without even understanding that you were arguing against points I never made, and your entire argument as presented was misaimed. Other things I never said? No more shy girls. Simply because a character is shy does not mean they cannot be willing in the presentation of their sexuality. They may be more reluctant to do so, and they will likely be more selective about who they are wiling to reveal their sexuality to, but being reserved or shy is not the same as them being uncomfortable with the specific context in which their sexuality is presented. Aside from that, there are varying degrees of comfort with one's own sexuality When I argue for fanservice in the context of consent, I am arguing against presentations of fanservice where the audience is expected to be aroused by a woman who is obviously being presented sexually against her will. You claim that I'm arguing for a single presentation of fanservice. That is wrong. I am arguing against a single specific presentation of fanservice, fanservice that presents women being sexualized against their will as arousing. I'm also not saying that sexual molestation and rape CANNOT be portrayed in anime. I am arguing against this subject being played for fanservice. More specifically, I am arguing that writers who choose to put these weighty subjects in their stories and anime recognize that these are bad things. I have no complaints against presentations such as those in Berzerk, where it is made clear that rape is a horrific experience. I have no intentions of limiting the subject matter writers and artists can portray. I have every intention of criticizing writers and artists who fumble their presentation of subject matters that deserve to be treated seriously. So congratulations on writing an essay decrying a viewpoint I was never supporting. :P |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
InkSpider said: Uh, no. I never once said that all fanservice needed to feature characters who's attitudes towards their own sexuality were as proud as Panty's or Bayonetta's. I said I dislike fanservice where the female character is being is clearly uncomfortable and unwilling towards being portrayed as sexual. I cited Panty and Stocking and Bayonetta because they were the two most prominent examples of media that DIDN'T fall into this problem. If I misunderstood your perspective, its because you were arguing against me without even understanding that you were arguing against points I never made, and your entire argument as presented was misaimed. Other things I never said? No more shy girls. Simply because a character is shy does not mean they cannot be willing in the presentation of their sexuality. They may be more reluctant to do so, and they will likely be more selective about who they are wiling to reveal their sexuality to, but being reserved or shy is not the same as them being uncomfortable with the specific context in which their sexuality is presented. Aside from that, there are varying degrees of comfort with one's own sexuality Meh, that's fair enough for the most part then, as much as it thoroughly disgusts me to cede any ground to an ideologue like yourself >_> Whether or not you dislike that type of fanservice isn't my concern, frankly. More important and relevant things to worry about on these topics than your preferences and judgements and such. I'm really fucking hesitant to acknowledge it as a problem that needs solving to any degree, though, but there's a more relevant place to initiate that conversation in this post, so eh. ----------- When I argue for fanservice in the context of consent, I am arguing against presentations of fanservice where the audience is expected to be aroused by a woman who is obviously being presented sexually against her will. You claim that I'm arguing for a single presentation of fanservice. That is wrong. I am arguing against a single specific presentation of fanservice, fanservice that presents women being sexualized against their will as arousing. Such is fetishization. I've always felt that the issue with these things being applied in reality should not be forgotten, but often are, which is the negative consequences on the actual people of the crime. Obviously, the issues with the desires wouldn't exist if they weren't harmful when being applied to other people. But simply having media that does as much isn't encouraging people to go out and commit such acts themselves, and the endorsement of it is really, at most, equal to being an outlet to communicate with these desires in way that is more suitable and victimless at the end of the day. So whether or not you find that objectionable is irrelevant, really. Take offense as you may, I don't care if it disgusts you or something, but I'm ultimately going to be on the side of allowing such gratification and indulgence within the sphere of a medium that doesn't have a meaningful victim being presented within. Which, no, graphite and paper and cels made on a computer aren't nearly as worthy of being victimized in the way you're trying to portray, and your stance here is ultimately pushing for trying to remove these things in a way that is ostensibly little more than forgetting where the actual issue with these acts in reality lies >_> I'm also not going to be buying into supporting anything seeking to restrict what's allowed to be sexualized in a drawn medium, past some specific circumstances like drawing cartoon-ish pornography of a real-live minor or something. So nah. I'm very much against this notion of restriction all the same. The wonder of sexualization comes from indulgence, at the end of the day it's ultimately a happy thing that can allow people to fantasize or fetishize things in whatever way they may please, and whenever the medium is conducive to portraying these things in a fetishized way with the most minimal risk that I can see as plausible then I'm going to want as few restrictions on it as possible, as much as some the things I may not necessarily be into on my own level. ------------------ So congratulations on writing an essay decrying a viewpoint I was never supporting. :P Sure, if we're totally putting aside the clarifications on the projections you tried to push onto my character and stances that I don't uphold that comprised a ton of it to zoom in on one fucking part of it. The accusations of reducing characters down to how they're sexualized and nothing else, the strawman bullshit that I was accusing you of pushing for censorship, et cetera. There's also the bit about the differences between hentai and ecchi and why I don't fucking agree with the notion to relegate things found in ecchi exclusively towards hentai. Y'know, the majority of the post that wasn't zoomed in on this topic we're discussing exclusively on this aspect of it. Treating it all as a singular post with a singular idea is ridiculously ignorant of you, frankly, but w/e. For some of the unfair interpretations of your stance towards portrayal of characters that can be sexualized, though? Sure, I apologize. I'm not siding with you in the slightest and I'm still going to be vocally against the concept of not allowing these things to be sexualized based on your weird-ass application of treating anime girls as possessing the same level of rights to privacy within an ecchi or something that a real life human would be allowed to possess, though. Be disgusted as much as you want, but I'm in no way going to align myself with something that's still kinda fucking self-centered and being pretty overblown in what you want to remove and why you want to remove it. There's still a pretty huge difference to me here between something being discomforting or disgusting and being legitimately problematic, though. |
ManabanOct 22, 2018 10:54 AM
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| Does dropping K (from watching other seasons) because of the name of a character revealed in the end, which reminded a horrible person of the past, count as moral? |
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| lol goblin slayer is an anime???? now i understand the meme... |
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| Cough* No drop policy mate, no drop policy... Cough* |
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| I only ever drop an anime out of boredom. I don't care if an anime has terrible componenets to it such as murder and other similar things. It's fiction, so it doesn't affect me. |
| I suppose I could say that I dropped Inuyashiki after one episode due to its misanthropy, particularly towards the young. And I think I've dropped a few things because of portraying domestic violence as acceptable for the humour. Love Hina is particularly bad for that. But for the most part, I manage to avoid starting things I'm going to find too objectionable. Like if it's a show about police officers as heroes, I just know to avoid it. The backlash against Goblin Slayer is silly. I mean, if you don't want to watch it because of its plodding storytelling and cardboard characters, sure. But the goblin behaviour is unambiguously shown as a very bad thing, and it doesn't show things in gratuitous detail. There's no rape apologism there or anything. |
celestialnerd said: I've only seen the first episode of Goblin Slayer, so I can't be sure that it's messages don't change as it goes on, but I personally don't like the show because it's world provides an excuse for a justifiable genocide, which I just can't morally get behind. Yes, that's a much better moral reason for rejecting it. Although note that such evil "races" (actually species) are a very common problem in science fiction and fantasy generally. They're an extension of racism, fantasy species get imagined as a "cruel warrior race" in echoes of propaganda depicting the people of some nation as a "cruel warrior race". CherryLover said: Oh, thank you. You might be one of the first people I have encountered here that finds Shinji's behavior in F/SN disgusting. I thought that was a universally held opinion. There's even a skit in Carnival Phantasm about Shinji being disgusting. |
InkSpider said: Kare Kano- This one... it's not a true drop, mind you. I plan to come back to it in the near future, but I was rather put off by the blackmail plot in the second episode. Probably has a lot to do with my personal history, but I just have trouble finding manipulative relationships funny. Just to let you know, it doesn't stay that way for long. |
| Well it can occur yeah it's not an issue. Some anime push a lot and one cannot always stand it. |
| There are quite a few series that go against my principles. But that is never a reason for me to drop any Anime. Latest example would be "Kuzu No Honkai" which really showed things about relationships and sex that I absolutely detest and refuse to be or be with. But as whole it was still good Anime, just my personal enjoyment of watching it was quite low. So for "moral" reasons I never drop any piece of fiction. |
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| That's not morals that's being upset or irritated at the content. Morals are about real world actions not fiction. |
| Who would drop a cartoon over "Moral Reason" |
| I think as long as the stuff portrayed isn't glorified it's fine. Killing children isn't good, but the anime doesn't portray it as such(quite the opposite) so it shouldn't matter. I dropped GTO after that one scene where he spanks underaged girls and films it...that shit does not go well with me and it was portrayed as justified revenge.. |
| People are going out of there way to call people weak or insensitive just cause they don't want to watch a girl be raped by goblins. Get over yourselves. No one should have to watch something if it makes them uncomfortable. I watch anime for entertainment. Sorry if rape doesn't entertain me. If you find rape entertaining or it just doesn't bother you, cool. But that doesn't make you a stronger or more inclusive person. |
| I know that my comment will get some angry replays so I'm sorry beforehand. I didn't start watching this anime, but I saw youtuber that I liked which described some disturbing scenes in this anime, which made me come to the conclusion that I can't watch this anime. I'm talking about Berserk. I hate it when females get treatment like they are some kind of toys and I hate the bizarre need anime/manga creators have for showing nudes (specifically women's) as much as they can like nudes are the only thing that matters. If this was a hentai anime, I probably could understand since the hentai industry treat women characters like trash, but this isn't hentai, and this anime got a lot of attention also which makes me sick. I get it that heavy stuff like rape and murders are interesting, and I even seen a movie about rape which I think is amazing (Perfect Blue), but the different is that in this movie it's clear that rape described as a sin, something bad while in Berserk, there are so many rapes or almost rape that one can think that the creators think it's cool, and showing only naked women. I know that because I haven't actually seen Berserk, I might be wrong about somethings, but I read about the scene with the horse and the one with Caska and I know there are more rape scenes and more scenes that represent women as sex toys and only for men's pleasure. NOTE: I'm not saying Berserk is bad, I'm saying that they used twisted ways to depict their ideas which made me sick to the point of not ever read or watch it. |
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Kazuar said: From what i understand, nobody has it as bad as Guts.I'm talking about Berserk. |
 I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Lunilah said: Kazuar said: From what i understand, nobody has it as bad as Guts.I'm talking about Berserk. Like I said, I didn't watch the anime or read the manga, but after seen three different chapters where women got raped and gang raped and even almost raped by horse and the world is like treat them as toys to come.. I can't give this anime a try. All Berserk lovers I really don't have anything against you, it's my choice to not watch this. |
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