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#1
Sep 27, 2018 8:46 AM

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Hey guys. I usually don't care about MAL scores but I had been away for a while and I noticed that there has been a decline in the novel's score recently. Pretty sure it was above 9 a year ago. Why is that? And I'm not saying people can't dislike it, i am just curious as to why it suddenly started decreasing when it was pretty constant for a long time.
 
#2
Sep 27, 2018 9:30 AM

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There was an official English release, so more people likely read it, some of whom were a bit more critical of it.
"No, son, you may not have your body pillow at the dinner table!"
 
#3
Sep 27, 2018 10:23 AM

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CatSoul said:
There was an official English release, so more people likely read it, some of whom were a bit more critical of it.

Ah yes. That must be it. Shame. Let's see what the final score is after all volumes are out.
 
#4
Sep 27, 2018 10:53 AM

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Good shit, that garbage doesn't deserve a 9.
 
#5
Sep 27, 2018 11:22 AM

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Aquamirror said:
Good shit, that garbage doesn't deserve a 9.

Any particular reason you feel that way? Especially considering you haven't even read it completely yet.

Uthenera said:
ambrose7 said:

Ah yes. That must be it. Shame. Let's see what the final score is after all volumes are out.

That's not the case. It's because of downvoting fake accounts such as
https://myanimelist.net/profile/Freesprinter33
https://myanimelist.net/profile/Overlordoverload
https://myanimelist.net/profile/Badcgiattacks
https://myanimelist.net/profile/Nickdegen
https://myanimelist.net/profile/Shitsamdwich
and more. This person downvoting not only Hakomari, but also Monogatari novel, Oregairu and other anime and manga. Just check the statistics pages.

It is a shame people resort to measures such as these for something like this lol
 
#6
Sep 28, 2018 1:19 AM

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ambrose7 said:
Aquamirror said:
Good shit, that garbage doesn't deserve a 9.

Any particular reason you feel that way? Especially considering you haven't even read it completely yet.

Uthenera said:

That's not the case. It's because of downvoting fake accounts such as
https://myanimelist.net/profile/Freesprinter33
https://myanimelist.net/profile/Overlordoverload
https://myanimelist.net/profile/Badcgiattacks
https://myanimelist.net/profile/Nickdegen
https://myanimelist.net/profile/Shitsamdwich
and more. This person downvoting not only Hakomari, but also Monogatari novel, Oregairu and other anime and manga. Just check the statistics pages.

It is a shame people resort to measures such as these for something like this lol


Well, HakoMari is an 8.5 for me, personally.

Positives include complex plot with many different themes and unexpected twists, great psychological-thriller mystery with competent pacing and tension, well-rounded characterization for most of the cast with no one important really being left behind, and quite a cathartic, satisfying ending (endings are important cuz far too often they're underwhelming and not cathartic enough, imo).

Negatives include bland-as-hell protagonist until Volume 5, fairly average prose quality with a severe lack of descriptive detail, the narrative and dialogue sometimes over-explaining character psychology and plot points in not-so-subtle, annoying ways, lots of cliche/repetitive high school teenage melodrama backstories, some shallow handling of certain subjects (rape, suicide, etc), and Volume 2 being straight-up terrible (the only thing decent about Volume 2 is some relationship development for the two main characters).

Overall, still a fine series, though.

But here are two examples of terrible dialogue that over-explain stuff:

[HakoMari Vol5] "It’s true that many people who think the death penalty is an easy answer are idiots. But even if you have an informed opinion after evaluating the sinners, the correct answer is still the death penalty. I know I’m being presumptuous here, having killed people in the ‘Game of Idleness’ myself, but I can still say with conviction that those guys are truly different from those of us who possess common sense. There really are assholes who can’t be pitied and make you want to vomit! You’d be surprised by their ignorance, their complete lack of empathy, and the crap that comes out of their mouths! It’s people like that who commit crimes. They are simply unable to adapt to society. Just take this guy here: guess what he said when I asked him if he pitied the girls he raped? ‘But I can’t hold back,’ ‘they were unlucky, running into me when I’m feeling like this,’ ‘I know I’m doing something wrong, but what can I do about it?’ Do you get what I’m saying? Don’t you feel the repulsiveness of those statements? These guys never learn. They don’t understand how much their victims suffer. They don’t realize what they have done. They have no scruples about privileging their own desires above the rights of everyone else. I now realize that they are born as scum - they can’t escape their destiny."

^Iroha. Like, holy shit... I physically cringe when reading that. Ranty, pseudo-philosophical monologue that pretends to be deep but actually isn't, and it's also way too wordy, too unsubtle (seriously, it's so in-your-face), too overdramatic, and too stilted in delivery. And Iroha's rant is a pretty simple philosophy, it's not really thought-provoking at all. Something like this can't be just a translation problem, it's most likely a flaw with the original Japanese prose.

[HakoMari Vol6] "It was inevitable! Do you think that it wouldn’t have any effect on me when people honestly think that I’m a wicked devil? Even worse, I used to be a shy and silent girl, don’t you understand what that means? Do you think I could in all honesty still think positively of myself after being treated like shit, burned with cigarettes and told off as a devil, a bitch, a whore? I can’t! I couldn’t! Can you imagine a whole bunch of people doing horrible things to you? Who are seriously thinking that you’re just scum who deserves it? Of course I would start to think so, too! Of course I would think that I deserve it! That was the only way to put up with all that stuff! Those marks have stolen all my self- confidence, self-respect, and everything I hold dear!"

^Kokone. Thank you very much, Kokone, for **explaining your psychology in such excruciating, expository detail**, dear God... again, very heavy-handed, not subtle at all. And once again, something like this can't just be a translation problem. Like, I know teenagers can rant and whine, but the dialogue here just comes off sounding pretentious and very unnatural. Like "Look at me, I'm trying to explain my characterization to you, the reader, and beat you over the head with it!"

And there are plenty other examples of weird dialogue scattered throughout the series.
Modified by LightBladeNova, Sep 28, 2018 1:31 AM
"Beyond the veil of cherry blossom petals blown by the wind - almost like their promised reunion -

Feelings pile up with the passage of time: once the torrent of emotions comes rushing down, what is the spectacle that awaits?"
 
#7
Sep 28, 2018 5:02 AM

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Look at the most helpful review^^
 
#8
Sep 28, 2018 5:18 AM

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LightBladeNova said:
ambrose7 said:

Any particular reason you feel that way? Especially considering you haven't even read it completely yet.


It is a shame people resort to measures such as these for something like this lol


Well, HakoMari is an 8.5 for me, personally.

Positives include complex plot with many different themes and unexpected twists, great psychological-thriller mystery with competent pacing and tension, well-rounded characterization for most of the cast with no one important really being left behind, and quite a cathartic, satisfying ending (endings are important cuz far too often they're underwhelming and not cathartic enough, imo).

Negatives include bland-as-hell protagonist until Volume 5, fairly average prose quality with a severe lack of descriptive detail, the narrative and dialogue sometimes over-explaining character psychology and plot points in not-so-subtle, annoying ways, lots of cliche/repetitive high school teenage melodrama backstories, some shallow handling of certain subjects (rape, suicide, etc), and Volume 2 being straight-up terrible (the only thing decent about Volume 2 is some relationship development for the two main characters).

Overall, still a fine series, though.

But here are two examples of terrible dialogue that over-explain stuff:

[HakoMari Vol5] "It’s true that many people who think the death penalty is an easy answer are idiots. But even if you have an informed opinion after evaluating the sinners, the correct answer is still the death penalty. I know I’m being presumptuous here, having killed people in the ‘Game of Idleness’ myself, but I can still say with conviction that those guys are truly different from those of us who possess common sense. There really are assholes who can’t be pitied and make you want to vomit! You’d be surprised by their ignorance, their complete lack of empathy, and the crap that comes out of their mouths! It’s people like that who commit crimes. They are simply unable to adapt to society. Just take this guy here: guess what he said when I asked him if he pitied the girls he raped? ‘But I can’t hold back,’ ‘they were unlucky, running into me when I’m feeling like this,’ ‘I know I’m doing something wrong, but what can I do about it?’ Do you get what I’m saying? Don’t you feel the repulsiveness of those statements? These guys never learn. They don’t understand how much their victims suffer. They don’t realize what they have done. They have no scruples about privileging their own desires above the rights of everyone else. I now realize that they are born as scum - they can’t escape their destiny."

^Iroha. Like, holy shit... I physically cringe when reading that. Ranty, pseudo-philosophical monologue that pretends to be deep but actually isn't, and it's also way too wordy, too unsubtle (seriously, it's so in-your-face), too overdramatic, and too stilted in delivery. And Iroha's rant is a pretty simple philosophy, it's not really thought-provoking at all. Something like this can't be just a translation problem, it's most likely a flaw with the original Japanese prose.

[HakoMari Vol6] "It was inevitable! Do you think that it wouldn’t have any effect on me when people honestly think that I’m a wicked devil? Even worse, I used to be a shy and silent girl, don’t you understand what that means? Do you think I could in all honesty still think positively of myself after being treated like shit, burned with cigarettes and told off as a devil, a bitch, a whore? I can’t! I couldn’t! Can you imagine a whole bunch of people doing horrible things to you? Who are seriously thinking that you’re just scum who deserves it? Of course I would start to think so, too! Of course I would think that I deserve it! That was the only way to put up with all that stuff! Those marks have stolen all my self- confidence, self-respect, and everything I hold dear!"

^Kokone. Thank you very much, Kokone, for **explaining your psychology in such excruciating, expository detail**, dear God... again, very heavy-handed, not subtle at all. And once again, something like this can't just be a translation problem. Like, I know teenagers can rant and whine, but the dialogue here just comes off sounding pretentious and very unnatural. Like "Look at me, I'm trying to explain my characterization to you, the reader, and beat you over the head with it!"

And there are plenty other examples of weird dialogue scattered throughout the series.

A good summary. I mostly agree though I feel the translation wasn't the best. I guess the negatives didn't affect me as much as they did to u. And yes the second novel was easily the weakest point of the series.
 
#9
Sep 28, 2018 8:13 AM

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Say that to all 500 fake accounts on this manga

https://myanimelist.net/manga/107078/Tsumi_to_Kai/stats
 
Oct 17, 2018 7:29 AM

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I'm positive hakomari has a lot of fake accounts who scored it 10. It's just that math did its toll, in the past only people who loved hakomari read it and scored it high, after it became more popular some readers weren't that impressed and scored it rather low.
"Even if there's a wide world and stories
beyond the main focus, I don't think
it's necessary to end with the protagonist having
been involved in everything." - Yagi Norihiro


Houseki no Kuni Club
 
Nov 18, 2018 10:52 AM
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Ok, I just finished Volume 1 after having a overly high expectation, and I feel disappointed miserably.
The so called "mystery" is just the way the author wrote it with lots of incomplete, incorrect, purposely written in a confusing method, clues, like Sherlock Holmes, if most of the time it actually wrote in a proper way, there would be no mystery at all.
Clues given that way is not to create mystery, but just a way to confuse reader without actually create the mystery..
Then all the "mysteries" are solved without actually providing clues to the reader, but just suddenly popped unnatural things out of no where to solve the "misteries"
I came in expecting too much and I ended up very disappointed. If I set a better expectation, I might give it a 6 or 7, but it's a 4 for now.
Modified by Apple_BS, Nov 18, 2018 10:56 AM
 
Nov 18, 2018 11:24 AM
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Now Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria is scored 8.93 by 12,223 users, still considered a great manga.

Its latest review by @berganda dated Jan, 21, 2016, where it is scored 1, hints about what happened to its score. 989 people found that review helpful, so we can consider we have more 989 low scores for it.
Mene, mene, tekel, parsin
 
Nov 18, 2018 11:41 AM

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Posts: 10611
leonardobarba said:
Now Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria is scored 8.93 by 12,223 users, still considered a great manga.

Its latest review by @berganda dated Jan, 21, 2016, where it is scored 1, hints about what happened to its score. 989 people found that review helpful, so we can consider we have more 989 low scores for it.


I can't possible see how it could possible be a 1/10. Clearly the person over exaggerate the score to trigger the fanbase of this series.
 
Nov 18, 2018 12:43 PM

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EGOIST said:
Say that to all 500 fake accounts on this manga

https://myanimelist.net/manga/107078/Tsumi_to_Kai/stats


Wtf? Didn't that use to be in like the top 50?
 
Nov 18, 2018 4:17 PM
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Posts: 332
keragamming said:
leonardobarba said:
Now Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria is scored 8.93 by 12,223 users, still considered a great manga.

Its latest review by @berganda dated Jan, 21, 2016, where it is scored 1, hints about what happened to its score. 989 people found that review helpful, so we can consider we have more 989 low scores for it.


I can't possible see how it could possible be a 1/10. Clearly the person over exaggerate the score to trigger the fanbase of this series.


According to the stats here, @berganda and other 105 MyAnimeList users scored the manga 1/10. 862 MAL users scored it 1-6/10.

Interesting, huh?
Mene, mene, tekel, parsin
 
Nov 19, 2018 12:20 AM
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keragamming said:
leonardobarba said:
Now Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria is scored 8.93 by 12,223 users, still considered a great manga.

Its latest review by @berganda dated Jan, 21, 2016, where it is scored 1, hints about what happened to its score. 989 people found that review helpful, so we can consider we have more 989 low scores for it.


I can't possible see how it could possible be a 1/10. Clearly the person over exaggerate the score to trigger the fanbase of this series.


Not my intention, but most fans assume that's my goal anyways.
 
Nov 19, 2018 5:03 AM

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Posts: 282
Apple_BS said:
Ok, I just finished Volume 1 after having a overly high expectation, and I feel disappointed miserably.
The so called "mystery" is just the way the author wrote it with lots of incomplete, incorrect, purposely written in a confusing method, clues, like Sherlock Holmes, if most of the time it actually wrote in a proper way, there would be no mystery at all.
Clues given that way is not to create mystery, but just a way to confuse reader without actually create the mystery..
Then all the "mysteries" are solved without actually providing clues to the reader, but just suddenly popped unnatural things out of no where to solve the "misteries"
I came in expecting too much and I ended up very disappointed. If I set a better expectation, I might give it a 6 or 7, but it's a 4 for now.

The first novel and the second are not really the strongest of the series. Please continue reading.
 
Nov 19, 2018 9:38 PM
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ambrose7 said:
The first novel and the second are not really the strongest of the series. Please continue reading.

I'd take your advice now, we'll see.
 
Dec 3, 2018 4:27 AM
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berganda said:
Not my intention, but most fans assume that's my goal anyways.


Your "review" was garbage. It offered no insight into your problems with the work and offered such illuminating insights as "It's a story disguised as a complex one, but at the core, it is simple beyond belief." I'm going to assume you left out the word simple, but even so every complex story is ultimately a simple plot dressed in complexity. Thats the entire point of the mystery genre.

"All its "complexity" just seems like the author getting new ideas and then cramming that idea into the story, realizing it doesn't end in a favorable outcome, and then finding ridiculous ways to explain why the favorable outcome was achieved."

This is a meaningless critique, you are essentially complaining that a work of fiction is fiction and that a mystery story involves mystery. No shit its fiction and no shit it's contrived. Thats the nature of the beast. I'd love to see your reviews of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's work.

Leaving aside that basically nothing merits a rating of 1 its unbelievable to me that anyone, never mind one thousand plus people, found your "review" (which is ultimately simply an overly elongated expression of distaste) helpful
 
Dec 3, 2018 11:58 PM
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Uthred said:
berganda said:
Not my intention, but most fans assume that's my goal anyways.


Your "review" was garbage. It offered no insight into your problems with the work and offered such illuminating insights as "It's a story disguised as a complex one, but at the core, it is simple beyond belief." I'm going to assume you left out the word simple, but even so every complex story is ultimately a simple plot dressed in complexity. Thats the entire point of the mystery genre.

"All its "complexity" just seems like the author getting new ideas and then cramming that idea into the story, realizing it doesn't end in a favorable outcome, and then finding ridiculous ways to explain why the favorable outcome was achieved."

This is a meaningless critique, you are essentially complaining that a work of fiction is fiction and that a mystery story involves mystery. No shit its fiction and no shit it's contrived. Thats the nature of the beast. I'd love to see your reviews of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's work.

Leaving aside that basically nothing merits a rating of 1 its unbelievable to me that anyone, never mind one thousand plus people, found your "review" (which is ultimately simply an overly elongated expression of distaste) helpful


I have a feeling that you go around telling people you're an "intellectual".
Let me modify your comment so that you might understand how utterly dumb that was.
--
Your "comment" was garbage. It offered no insight into your problems with the review and offered such illuminating insights as "Leaving aside that basically nothing merits a rating of 1 its unbelievable to me that anyone, never mind one thousand plus people, found your "review" (which is ultimately simply an overly elongated expression of distaste) helpful" I'm going to assume you left out your brain somewhere, but even so, every review is an overly elongated expression of approval or distaste. That's the entire point of a review.

--

Got it? Do you now understand what a "review" is?


"This is a meaningless critique, you are essentially complaining that a work of fiction is fiction and that a mystery story involves mystery."

Let me give you an example that your brain can handle.

A local burger joint is getting rave reviews for their gourmet burger. The gourmet burger claims to come with complicated and fancy ingredients. But upon trying it, I find out that their premium ingredients are absolute trash. I complain that the fancy ingredients didn't do anything for the base burger. You say that my critique is invalid because I'm complaining about what's in my burger and a burger should always have lettuce, tomato, cheese, patty, and buns. But my complaint is concerning the quality of said ingredients.

What logic is there in your response?


"No shit its fiction and no shit it's contrived. Thats the nature of the beast."

Come on, you're excusing poor writing because it's fiction and you can do anything in fiction. Ok, M. Night Shyamalan. "it's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit" meme is basically what you're throwing at me.


"Leaving aside that basically nothing merits a rating of 1"
There's a reason the rating system starts at 1 and not a 2. You don't need a 1 if even the worst works never go that far down.

The reason why people found my review "helpful" was they were tired of seeing whiny children like yourself complain about the slightest negative review on your favorite work and all the absolute fan boy reviews that filled the page.
 
Dec 4, 2018 12:24 AM

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Posts: 282
berganda said:
Uthred said:


Your "review" was garbage. It offered no insight into your problems with the work and offered such illuminating insights as "It's a story disguised as a complex one, but at the core, it is simple beyond belief." I'm going to assume you left out the word simple, but even so every complex story is ultimately a simple plot dressed in complexity. Thats the entire point of the mystery genre.

"All its "complexity" just seems like the author getting new ideas and then cramming that idea into the story, realizing it doesn't end in a favorable outcome, and then finding ridiculous ways to explain why the favorable outcome was achieved."

This is a meaningless critique, you are essentially complaining that a work of fiction is fiction and that a mystery story involves mystery. No shit its fiction and no shit it's contrived. Thats the nature of the beast. I'd love to see your reviews of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's work.

Leaving aside that basically nothing merits a rating of 1 its unbelievable to me that anyone, never mind one thousand plus people, found your "review" (which is ultimately simply an overly elongated expression of distaste) helpful


I have a feeling that you go around telling people you're an "intellectual".
Let me modify your comment so that you might understand how utterly dumb that was.
--
Your "comment" was garbage. It offered no insight into your problems with the review and offered such illuminating insights as "Leaving aside that basically nothing merits a rating of 1 its unbelievable to me that anyone, never mind one thousand plus people, found your "review" (which is ultimately simply an overly elongated expression of distaste) helpful" I'm going to assume you left out your brain somewhere, but even so, every review is an overly elongated expression of approval or distaste. That's the entire point of a review.

--

Got it? Do you now understand what a "review" is?


"This is a meaningless critique, you are essentially complaining that a work of fiction is fiction and that a mystery story involves mystery."

Let me give you an example that your brain can handle.

A local burger joint is getting rave reviews for their gourmet burger. The gourmet burger claims to come with complicated and fancy ingredients. But upon trying it, I find out that their premium ingredients are absolute trash. I complain that the fancy ingredients didn't do anything for the base burger. You say that my critique is invalid because I'm complaining about what's in my burger and a burger should always have lettuce, tomato, cheese, patty, and buns. But my complaint is concerning the quality of said ingredients.

What logic is there in your response?


"No shit its fiction and no shit it's contrived. Thats the nature of the beast."

Come on, you're excusing poor writing because it's fiction and you can do anything in fiction. Ok, M. Night Shyamalan. "it's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit" meme is basically what you're throwing at me.


"Leaving aside that basically nothing merits a rating of 1"
There's a reason the rating system starts at 1 and not a 2. You don't need a 1 if even the worst works never go that far down.

The reason why people found my review "helpful" was they were tired of seeing whiny children like yourself complain about the slightest negative review on your favorite work and all the absolute fan boy reviews that filled the page.

There are varying degrees of negativity. I fully understand that it's your opinion and thus don't care about what score you gave it. However I can't see how it warrants a 1. 1 being the lowest score should be reserved for something which does extremely bad in all aspects. I have seen many anime and read many novels and have never come across any work of fiction which is genuinely trash at everything. So to see someone say that Hakomari of all things deserves a 1 is a bit astounding to me. But again, that's my personal bias speaking just as yours led to the "review".
 
Dec 5, 2018 3:03 AM
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berganda said:

The reason why people found my review "helpful" was they were tired of seeing whiny children like yourself complain about the slightest negative review on your favorite work and all the absolute fan boy reviews that filled the page.


Nice try champ, as expected no actual response to critique other than deflection and ad hominen. I honestly wouldnt have expected anything else. You're also completely off base with the above. I've read one volume and rated it a six, its very far from my favourite work. So without being able to blame it on me being a "fanboy" what could be the reason for me complaining about your review? Could it be because its garbage? Yep, let's go with that. I mean the child bit is off as well but I imagine you meant it in the pejorative rather than factual sense so we can let that go.
 
Dec 6, 2018 2:09 AM
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ambrose7 said:

There are varying degrees of negativity. I fully understand that it's your opinion and thus don't care about what score you gave it. However I can't see how it warrants a 1. 1 being the lowest score should be reserved for something which does extremely bad in all aspects. I have seen many anime and read many novels and have never come across any work of fiction which is genuinely trash at everything. So to see someone say that Hakomari of all things deserves a 1 is a bit astounding to me. But again, that's my personal bias speaking just as yours led to the "review".

You have a valid point, and I agree that it's very difficult to justify a 1.

And I'm sure my bias comes into it when I rate it a 1. I think it's put on a pedestal that it doesn't belong on. I went into it with a certain high expectation and I felt utterly let down by it. Reading through, I was left with "that's it? All of this confusion that went no where was just for this ending?"

Uthred said:
berganda said:

The reason why people found my review "helpful" was they were tired of seeing whiny children like yourself complain about the slightest negative review on your favorite work and all the absolute fan boy reviews that filled the page.


Nice try champ, as expected no actual response to critique other than deflection and ad hominen. I honestly wouldnt have expected anything else. You're also completely off base with the above. I've read one volume and rated it a six, its very far from my favourite work. So without being able to blame it on me being a "fanboy" what could be the reason for me complaining about your review? Could it be because its garbage? Yep, let's go with that. I mean the child bit is off as well but I imagine you meant it in the pejorative rather than factual sense so we can let that go.


Do you actually know what an ad hominem means? Because my response was very much a valid response to your statement regarding why my review was "garbage".

part 1 - I tried to enlighten you on why "every complex story is ultimately a simple plot dressed in complexity" was not a proper critique of my review. I'm saying "the quality of complexity is bad" and not "why is there complexity added to this simple plot".

part 2 - I'm explaining that bad writing can't be excused by saying "well, it's fiction so anything can happen". Otherwise, anything that is considered "fiction" would never be rated below a 10.

part 3 - You argued that nothing merits a 1 rating. I refuted that the scaling system is there for a reason, and if someone truly believes something is not worth anyone's time, it will be labeled as a 1.

Lastly, I've never called you a "fan boy". That's your misunderstanding.

Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button.
Modified by MonkeyDHunter, Dec 8, 2019 5:49 AM
 
Dec 6, 2018 6:57 AM
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berganda said:
Do you actually know what an ad hominem means? Because my response was very much a valid response to your statement regarding why my review was "garbage".


Yes I am perfectly aware of what the term means. Your continuous implications that I'm stupid (e.g. "Let me modify your comment so that you might understand how utterly dumb that was.", "Let me give you an example that your brain can handle."), the fact you straight up called me a whiny child, the fact you tried to dismiss my arguements by saying I coudlnt handle my "favourite work" being complained about, your unwillingness to engage with the points being made would all seem to fit with "a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument".

berganda said:
part 1 - I tried to enlighten you on why "every complex story is ultimately a simple plot dressed in complexity" was not a proper critique of my review. I'm saying "the quality of complexity is bad" and not "why is there complexity added to this simple plot".


No, you didn't. You took a bizarre shot at me about telling people I'm an intellectual. You then failed to respond to my point instead you "modifed my comment" so I could undersand how "utterly dumb" it was. You in fact didn't address the point about how every mystery is ultimately a simple story dressed in complexity. You instead clearly, based on your "Do you now understand what a review is" comment, took a run at justifying your review. Which I ignored the last time but lets have at it then. Yes, technically what you wrote is a review. But technically qualifying as a review doesnt make it a useful or a valid one. There are certain standards that have to be met beyond simply techically qualifying as a review. What you wrote didnt meet those standards.

berganda said:
part 2 - I'm explaining that bad writing can't be excused by saying "well, it's fiction so anything can happen". Otherwise, anything that is considered "fiction" would never be rated below a 10.


Kudos to you for explaining around a point I never made. To bring us back to the start your "review" was "All its "complexity" just seems like the author getting new ideas and then cramming that idea into the story, realizing it doesn't end in a favorable outcome, and then finding ridiculous ways to explain why the favorable outcome was achieved."

Your complaint here is that a mystery story is contrived. As I said that is inherent to the narrative form. If your actual complaint was about the quality of the contrivance then you should have made that clear. It's a bit late now to pretend you meant something other than what you wrote. The onus is on the reviewer to be clear. Though I suppose it does fall into the overall argument that your review is garbage.

berganda said:
part 3 - You argued that nothing merits a 1 rating. I refuted that the scaling system is there for a reason, and if someone truly believes something is not worth anyone's time, it will be labeled as a 1.


Just because a scale allows for certain ratings doesnt mean those ratings are valid or intended to be used. You didn't refute anything you simply pointed out the obvious fact that the one rating exists on the scale. No completed work thats free from gross objective errors warrants a score of one. Similarly I'd say very few works deserve a rating of ten either.

berganda said:
Lastly, I've never called you a "fan boy". That's your misunderstanding.


Rubbish. You either don't know what you're writing, which I would honestly believe, or, the much more likely option, you are being deliberately obtuse. While you didn't literally do so the implication of this:

"The reason why people found my review "helpful" was they were tired of seeing whiny children like yourself complain about the slightest negative review on your favorite work and all the absolute fan boy reviews that filled the page."

are clear. I have exactly zero interest in continuing to converse with someone exhibiting such blatant intellectual dishonesty so I'll be leaving this discussion here. I will say it is a pity that the site doesnt offer better stats for review and series feedback. While it may be a bit much, as I won't be responding, I have to say I'm interested. Why did you read seven novels, short as they were, if you felt that the first one was (according to you) literally one of the worst novels ever written?
 
Dec 16, 2018 8:41 PM
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I'm not sure why you're so surprised when you come in here swinging with "your review is garbage, rah rah" and I swing back. You're not going to convince me to review Hakomori any better with that kind of attitude.

You're right, there's no point continuing this "conversation". You provided me with lots of laughter and entertainment. But this big kid has got to move on.
My review of 1 for Hako Mori wil stay up and more people will continue to rate it down and down. You're welcome.

@Naneun You actually wrote in a round about way that you're an "intellectual". Dude, please get out of the house for once without a fedora.

Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button.
Modified by MonkeyDHunter, Dec 8, 2019 5:50 AM
 
Dec 31, 2018 5:57 AM
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To jump into the argument raging above-

Oh believe me, I have worse to say. I'm going to write a MAL review right here and right now.

First I will let the writing speak for itself, in this spoiler-free passage below:

"“I was convinced that I had grasped your behavioral patterns completely by now. But I couldn’t predict your statement just now at all. Can you imagine how amusing this is for someone accustomed to eternal boredom?” she says, looking delighted."

There's more. For instance, in the opening scenes of this supposedly dark and gritty series, the main heroine reveals her reality-defying power by telling the main character about the color of a girl's panties. It's a cold open, a rolling intro, and a crash into a panty flash.

God and Buddha help me, I read every volume to witness and report on the hundreds of examples of awful dialogue and Light Novel cliches, If your mind can interpret this trainwreck as salvageable, you have an inhumanly forgiving mind that I am unable to comprehend.

I've helped edit literary abortions-in-progress, and have produced terrible work myself. I understand that madness that results in teenage characters using fifty words instead of eight. I sympathize with the stupidity of tacking backstories of abuse onto small children and having one mutter, literally, "murdermurdermurder" in the least subtle possible way of setting up the twist villain of a book. But the humane way to handle those manuscripts is to label them as inherently irrecoverable, and then to euthanize them.

You might think this will be funny, or at the least, a campy and edgy read. This is true for many light novels and web novels. By any faith or philosophy you might hold, trust me, this is not true here. Worse than just bad, the writing is boring. If you are into bad video game mechanics being described in pointless and excruciating detail, you know who you are, and no force in imagination will restrain you from reading this.

As for the rest of humanity, it is to my great relief that HakoMari is only popular in the Western world, not in Japan itself. This suggests that, on the whole, human beings may have a shared sense of good taste.

I've had the pleasure to read good postmodern books. I love the genre. You can fly through songs, bodies, and minds. But if this is not pretentious, then nothing is pretentious. If this is not awful, then nothing is awful. You might not think this Light Novel deserves a 1/10. I myself made the horrible mistake of sitting through it to confirm it for myself.

If you do not give this writer a single yen, and avoid supporting the paid publication of further work at all costs, my work will be done. I have no faith in God or Buddha, but if I did, I would be praying with all my might for purification of this mistake. My goal is not to diss the fans of this work, but to prevent them from existing, by denying the source of their troubles.
 
Dec 31, 2018 10:37 AM

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nuclearstudent said:
To jump into the argument raging above-

Oh believe me, I have worse to say. I'm going to write a MAL review right here and right now.

First I will let the writing speak for itself, in this spoiler-free passage below:

"“I was convinced that I had grasped your behavioral patterns completely by now. But I couldn’t predict your statement just now at all. Can you imagine how amusing this is for someone accustomed to eternal boredom?” she says, looking delighted."

There's more. For instance, in the opening scenes of this supposedly dark and gritty series, the main heroine reveals her reality-defying power by telling the main character about the color of a girl's panties. It's a cold open, a rolling intro, and a crash into a panty flash.

God and Buddha help me, I read every volume to witness and report on the hundreds of examples of awful dialogue and Light Novel cliches, If your mind can interpret this trainwreck as salvageable, you have an inhumanly forgiving mind that I am unable to comprehend.

I've helped edit literary abortions-in-progress, and have produced terrible work myself. I understand that madness that results in teenage characters using fifty words instead of eight. I sympathize with the stupidity of tacking backstories of abuse onto small children and having one mutter, literally, "murdermurdermurder" in the least subtle possible way of setting up the twist villain of a book. But the humane way to handle those manuscripts is to label them as inherently irrecoverable, and then to euthanize them.

You might think this will be funny, or at the least, a campy and edgy read. This is true for many light novels and web novels. By any faith or philosophy you might hold, trust me, this is not true here. Worse than just bad, the writing is boring. If you are into bad video game mechanics being described in pointless and excruciating detail, you know who you are, and no force in imagination will restrain you from reading this.

As for the rest of humanity, it is to my great relief that HakoMari is only popular in the Western world, not in Japan itself. This suggests that, on the whole, human beings may have a shared sense of good taste.

I've had the pleasure to read good postmodern books. I love the genre. You can fly through songs, bodies, and minds. But if this is not pretentious, then nothing is pretentious. If this is not awful, then nothing is awful. You might not think this Light Novel deserves a 1/10. I myself made the horrible mistake of sitting through it to confirm it for myself.

If you do not give this writer a single yen, and avoid supporting the paid publication of further work at all costs, my work will be done. I have no faith in God or Buddha, but if I did, I would be praying with all my might for purification of this mistake. My goal is not to diss the fans of this work, but to prevent them from existing, by denying the source of their troubles.

Imagine hating something so much that you want other people not to support an author lol.
 
Dec 31, 2018 12:10 PM
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ambrose7 said:
nuclearstudent said:
To jump into the argument raging above-

Oh believe me, I have worse to say. I'm going to write a MAL review right here and right now.

First I will let the writing speak for itself, in this spoiler-free passage below:

"“I was convinced that I had grasped your behavioral patterns completely by now. But I couldn’t predict your statement just now at all. Can you imagine how amusing this is for someone accustomed to eternal boredom?” she says, looking delighted."

There's more. For instance, in the opening scenes of this supposedly dark and gritty series, the main heroine reveals her reality-defying power by telling the main character about the color of a girl's panties. It's a cold open, a rolling intro, and a crash into a panty flash.

God and Buddha help me, I read every volume to witness and report on the hundreds of examples of awful dialogue and Light Novel cliches, If your mind can interpret this trainwreck as salvageable, you have an inhumanly forgiving mind that I am unable to comprehend.

I've helped edit literary abortions-in-progress, and have produced terrible work myself. I understand that madness that results in teenage characters using fifty words instead of eight. I sympathize with the stupidity of tacking backstories of abuse onto small children and having one mutter, literally, "murdermurdermurder" in the least subtle possible way of setting up the twist villain of a book. But the humane way to handle those manuscripts is to label them as inherently irrecoverable, and then to euthanize them.

You might think this will be funny, or at the least, a campy and edgy read. This is true for many light novels and web novels. By any faith or philosophy you might hold, trust me, this is not true here. Worse than just bad, the writing is boring. If you are into bad video game mechanics being described in pointless and excruciating detail, you know who you are, and no force in imagination will restrain you from reading this.

As for the rest of humanity, it is to my great relief that HakoMari is only popular in the Western world, not in Japan itself. This suggests that, on the whole, human beings may have a shared sense of good taste.

I've had the pleasure to read good postmodern books. I love the genre. You can fly through songs, bodies, and minds. But if this is not pretentious, then nothing is pretentious. If this is not awful, then nothing is awful. You might not think this Light Novel deserves a 1/10. I myself made the horrible mistake of sitting through it to confirm it for myself.

If you do not give this writer a single yen, and avoid supporting the paid publication of further work at all costs, my work will be done. I have no faith in God or Buddha, but if I did, I would be praying with all my might for purification of this mistake. My goal is not to diss the fans of this work, but to prevent them from existing, by denying the source of their troubles.

Imagine hating something so much that you want other people not to support an author lol.


I had a good night's sleep and softened my review significantly. Upon reflection, I think I'll still leave that part in.
Well-

I dunno, for myself, HakoMari was like the worst experience I've had from a work of fiction. But I can see the appeal for others who are a lot more tolerant of shitty prose. I have a friend, whom I respect, who likes it. It takes a certain kind of imagination to transcend bad and edgy writing, to weave together a story from crappy emotional beats.

Do I rate by my own experience, and for people who are like me? Or do I take into account human beings who are not like me?

I really did hate reading that thing. And I don't want more of this to exist.

My opinion keeps flip flopping. But on the whole, I think I'll rate by my feelings.

Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button.
Modified by fancyjasper, Dec 8, 2019 4:28 AM
 
Jan 12, 2019 7:55 PM

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I'll be honest with everyone in this thread, I'm 23, haven't read many actual books or novels and I've stopped watching anime since I was 18 since it's too time-consuming and I hated watching 1 episode per week so I usually just waited for them to finish then I'd binge watch them but then again, that became very time consuming, so I just turned to manga.

I've read several hundred manga from romance to mystery, to action, to tragedy, to drama, to everything you can think of, in fact, the manga I've added to my MAL is but a fraction of everything I've read.

Obviously, manga is no proper book and the dialogues & information isn't as detailed as it is in novels / books, so I eventually gave novels a try and enjoyed them although it still gave me the same problem that anime did, too time consuming, thus as I mentioned, I haven't read many of them.

But I can safely say that Hakomari is easily a 10/10 for me, everything about the story was amazing, the writing(I read fan translations not the actual official translation so I don't know how different it really is), the characters, the story, everything.

It really does baffle me a bit how people can possibly rate this any less than 5, again, this is no manga, and I have read maybe 10 to 15 novels, majority being highly rated and again, I can safely say nothing was better than Hakomari, some have gotten very close , yes, but hakomari still takes the trophy home for me.

When I read Hakomari it has 9.05 score on MAL, oh boy how low it has fallen, it's a shame how the only Novel that was in top 5 is now at #14
READ: Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria 10/10 LN you will regret not reading it, any 10/10 you've given so far will be a 7 or an 8 after you finish reading it.

 
Jan 13, 2019 3:13 AM

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The first volume is easily one of the best time loops in history. After that, the quality really declined.

 
Jan 14, 2019 10:50 AM

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Pernodi said:
The first volume is easily one of the best time loops in history. After that, the quality really declined.

If it really declined then why is it in your favourites with a perfect score? :/ Did you like it despite the decline? While I agree that the second book was a pretty big frop from the first, the remaining ones were amazing imo.
 
Jan 14, 2019 11:00 AM

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ambrose7 said:
Pernodi said:
The first volume is easily one of the best time loops in history. After that, the quality really declined.

If it really declined then why is it in your favourites with a perfect score? :/ Did you like it despite the decline? While I agree that the second book was a pretty big frop from the first, the remaining ones were amazing imo.

I read it almost 3 years ago. At the time, it was a great experience, but in hindsight and with more experience I don't think the rest of the story was all that special. Especially the ending with the ultra-long timeloop that drove the MC insane feels over the top and unnecessary.
That being said, it holds a very special place in my heart for the first volume, and the other arcs to a lesser degree (although I should change the perfect score)

 
Jan 19, 2019 11:09 AM

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What happened with the score? Easy.. Shitty trolls and haters

 
Jan 28, 2019 11:18 PM

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@berganda
I came to see if this is worth reading, but dude, you're an ass lmao, what's wrong with you?
At first when I read people talking about multis I thought this was full of fanboys defending their shit but nah, after reading your posts here I can see you're just retarded.
 
Feb 2, 2019 12:46 AM
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DarkLunacy said:
@berganda
I came to see if this is worth reading, but dude, you're an ass lmao, what's wrong with you?
At first when I read people talking about multis I thought this was full of fanboys defending their shit but nah, after reading your posts here I can see you're just retarded.


I guess? I haven't attacked anyone that's actually having a discussion. The only one feeling butthurt are the ones who coming swinging with stuff like "your review is trash!"

You should read through the discussion again. I join the discussion first here and I don't believe I'm being an ass:
berganda said:
keragamming said:


I can't possible see how it could possible be a 1/10. Clearly the person over exaggerate the score to trigger the fanbase of this series.


Not my intention, but most fans assume that's my goal anyways.
 
Aug 11, 2019 1:35 AM

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In MyAnimeList world (and also many other rate based system), rating something with "1" (or the lowest possible score) is a prove of utter disgust and hatred towards a series. And most likely, people who do that will have nothing but rants and unreasonable hatred or should they say "arguments" in pin-pointing what they assumed as "what makes this series bad and you should NOT read it". In MAL, something below 7 has already proved its low quality and barely deserves any attention from newcomers.

In short, arguing with people who gave a series a rating of 1 will never yield any results other than degeneracy and stupidity. I too have some series that I rated 1 in my list and I tell you its pointless to tell me otherwise, and so the others who do the same.
 
Oct 19, 2019 3:06 AM

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It's an old subject but I might as well share my experience with this title.

I read this when it was ranked as the highest novel, above 9 as you mentioned, so I went in with a lot of expectations.
I was still fairly hyped after the first volume, it was nothing transcendent sure but I really liked it, so I could see it only go stronger from there... except it didn't. I know a lot of people liked the rest more, but it just didn't work for me.

So if we're searching a reason why the score has dropped, rather than trolls (even though there will always be some) it's probably just that its high score lured a lot of people in reading it to expect a masterpiece, only to be dissatisfied by it.
 
Nov 4, 2019 11:23 PM

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Leupho said:
It's an old subject but I might as well share my experience with this title.

So if we're searching a reason why the score has dropped, rather than trolls (even though there will always be some) it's probably just that its high score lured a lot of people in reading it to expect a masterpiece, only to be dissatisfied by it.


Of course, this can be applied to anything that's rated high. That's also why I sometimes don't want things I consider to be the very best become popular because people will go in with weird expectations based on the score.

It is so highly scored in the first place because those who went in neutral found it to be masterpiece worthy while the people who got into it after seeing the score had expectations. It's kinda sad how expectations can ruin experiences

 
Dec 8, 2019 1:25 AM

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What happened to its MAL score? Well, simple: before it was only LN readers. People who like to read and do it a lot, duh. So they used to walls of text, texts that hard to grasp due to being intentionally written that way, long musings over one subject - in short, it was people who used to doing long reads with barely, if any, pictures in it. Moreover, between them there was some people who really like purely textual fanservice - like word-play or intentionally colourful storytelling, obviously. Now when it came into the light, got recognition and even some official translation, ordinary manga readers and anime watchers got their hand on it. And those people usually don't like doing work that requires the ability to read fast and remember huge chunks of text. Them, and also legitimate (those without alt accounts) haters - that's what happened.
In a way, it's somewhat similar to the fate (intentional) of Kara no Kyoukai in Japan - it was simply (intentional too) too hard to ordinary manga readers and anime watchers to grasp, and thus failed at first attempt. Only later, when the author reworked it into something much more simple and added a lot of usual fanservice (in initial, broad sense) and got popular through this, KnK finally got fans attention - even enough to produce anime adaptation.
And if you didn't knew - actually, people in Japan don't like to read. Yes, there are some good Japanese authors, they got some awards and some recognition - but mostly on international level. To the point that you really need to clarify what Murakami you means - Haruka or Ryu, else they might be confused.
Guess that is somewhat of a national Asian problem, giving that Koreans (South, of course) have it even worse, though in their case it has other additional, purely cultural problems.
So, prey that Mikage will write something truly "for the people" that will be animated - then, may be, you'll got both more positive attention and, who knows, even anime adaptation, though only ufotable is able to pull it, obviously (with Shaft being second, and then none).

There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value.
 
Dec 8, 2019 5:07 PM

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kitsune0 said:
What happened to its MAL score? Well, simple: before it was only LN readers. People who like to read and do it a lot, duh. So they used to walls of text, texts that hard to grasp due to being intentionally written that way, long musings over one subject - in short, it was people who used to doing long reads with barely, if any, pictures in it. Moreover, between them there was some people who really like purely textual fanservice - like word-play or intentionally colourful storytelling, obviously. Now when it came into the light, got recognition and even some official translation, ordinary manga readers and anime watchers got their hand on it. And those people usually don't like doing work that requires the ability to read fast and remember huge chunks of text. Them, and also legitimate (those without alt accounts) haters - that's what happened.
In a way, it's somewhat similar to the fate (intentional) of Kara no Kyoukai in Japan - it was simply (intentional too) too hard to ordinary manga readers and anime watchers to grasp, and thus failed at first attempt. Only later, when the author reworked it into something much more simple and added a lot of usual fanservice (in initial, broad sense) and got popular through this, KnK finally got fans attention - even enough to produce anime adaptation.
And if you didn't knew - actually, people in Japan don't like to read. Yes, there are some good Japanese authors, they got some awards and some recognition - but mostly on international level. To the point that you really need to clarify what Murakami you means - Haruka or Ryu, else they might be confused.
Guess that is somewhat of a national Asian problem, giving that Koreans (South, of course) have it even worse, though in their case it has other additional, purely cultural problems.
So, prey that Mikage will write something truly "for the people" that will be animated - then, may be, you'll got both more positive attention and, who knows, even anime adaptation, though only ufotable is able to pull it, obviously (with Shaft being second, and then none).


That is just an assumption and I would go as far as saying, if persons don't like reading or prefer manga over light novels, then majority of them wont be reading a ton of text, just to see what all the hype is about, if people don't like reading, then they just don't like reading.

13k persons has currently scored this series, and I would bet my money that majority of them are regular light novel readers, sword art online has 16k persons scoring it https://myanimelist.net/manga/21479/Sword_Art_Online I use sao because it is one of the most popular series, overlord also has 10k user scoring it, so I will say that this series is still in the realm of being read my mostly light novel readers. What @Leupho mention makes a lot more sense, a lot of light novel readers saw this and wanted to see what all the hype is about and then got disappointed just like a lot of other series whether it is manga or not. Now don't get me wrong I am sure there are persons that tried it that generally don't read light novel, I am one of those persons that tried it, I think I read only 2 volumes and stop, and not because it was bad but simple I probably forgot about it, because there are a lot of other series to focus on, especially manga series.


I also like to make another point, based of what you are saying you are implying light novels are generally more complicated and harder to understand than manga, I personally felt like this was an insult to me and all persons that prefer visual graphic medium than book format , simple because it has more words in it doesn't mean it is more complicated than manga, this is false as most light novel are isekai garbage fantasy series, also the reason why light novel has more text it in than manga is because you don't have or rarely have any type of illustration in it, so the author has to give description and describe each characters how they look etc and will also need to readers to know how they characters feel whether they are scared, happy etc, while in manga format mangaka doesn't have to write all that because it can be seen with the naked eyes.

When it comes to the plot, its basically the same amount of writing, if you exclude all those stuff I mention, there are different ways in consuming media, and some persons like to read while others don't mind reading but doesn't like and overbearing amount of text and like to see imagery as well, which is why persons always criticize series like hxh for having too much text, especially unnecessary text, because a lot of the text in it can be express easily with illustration.

None are more intelligent than the other. Just a different way to consume it. One thing I do like about novels or books in general is that it makes your imagination run wild. People also praise evangellion and experimental lain and other anime series for being too complicated, so its not exclusive to light novel series as well, but I generally believe a good author should be able to convey its story to a average IQ person so that they too can understand it, if its a over complicated plot that needs a 300 IQ it just comes off as pretentious, as if the author is making it as complex as possible for that very reason. A lot of persons get confuse with snk manga and say that it is too complicated, yes it is a not a straight forward series, but it certainly can be easily be understand by your average readers as long as they pay attention to the series and re reading the series will help, especially since it a monthly series so persons will forget about plot points, but it isn't trying to be over complicated just for the sake of it.
Modified by keragamming, Dec 8, 2019 5:27 PM
 
Dec 9, 2019 1:03 AM

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I didn't say that majority of those who scored it low didn't read it, only stated the obvious that there are such users.
Thing is - not everyone got it that good as Japanese or Americans. Or some Europeans. So, in a lot of countries anime fans are still hungry for content. And thus they might pick up something that is outside of their usual interests - simply because it's something new. Look at Katawa Shoujo, Doki Doki Literature Club or that (in)famous Krautchan loli/pedo VN - many of people who read it are not VN fans, just a regular anime fans. In my country we only recently got SAO novel - and it was the big deal: first officially published light novel! Even though a lot of various (and I really mean it - including some very obscure) manga has been published for more than a decade now, and our local national manga-style comix for more than two decades - which even longer than anime being licensed here.
No, I'm not implying that light novels are generally more complicated or harder to understand. I only state that generally it requires more work to consume. But I can see why my statements could be seen in such a light. Moreover, I myself seen it when I reread my post after submitting. But I hate editing my posts after submitting.
Yes, as one anon on 4chan once said in discussion about certain overrated novel - "why books held as some kind of high art bullshit? There are so many bad books that I even don't know where to begin with".
And to make things absolutely clear - no, I don't hold those who only watch anime or read only manga as lazy, stupid or something similarly negative. This is entertainment, everyone choose what pleases him most, and this is how it should be. People just want fun, and it's up to them what they see as fun. Bringing example from other medium - no, people who play Dark Souls are not better that those who play Bejeweled simply because it's Nintendo Hard.

There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value.
 
Jan 1, 3:50 AM
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For the 9999th time, who the hell care, mal scores are nothing cuz the majority of people here are cancers
Just look at AOT and Gintama fans lol
 
Jan 2, 8:24 AM

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You spelled Gaylactic Heroes wrong.

There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value.
 
Jan 2, 8:45 AM

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kitsune0 said:
I didn't say that majority of those who scored it low didn't read it, only stated the obvious that there are such users.
Thing is - not everyone got it that good as Japanese or Americans. Or some Europeans. So, in a lot of countries anime fans are still hungry for content. And thus they might pick up something that is outside of their usual interests - simply because it's something new. Look at Katawa Shoujo, Doki Doki Literature Club or that (in)famous Krautchan loli/pedo VN - many of people who read it are not VN fans, just a regular anime fans. In my country we only recently got SAO novel - and it was the big deal: first officially published light novel! Even though a lot of various (and I really mean it - including some very obscure) manga has been published for more than a decade now, and our local national manga-style comix for more than two decades - which even longer than anime being licensed here.
No, I'm not implying that light novels are generally more complicated or harder to understand. I only state that generally it requires more work to consume. But I can see why my statements could be seen in such a light. Moreover, I myself seen it when I reread my post after submitting. But I hate editing my posts after submitting.
Yes, as one anon on 4chan once said in discussion about certain overrated novel - "why books held as some kind of high art bullshit? There are so many bad books that I even don't know where to begin with".
And to make things absolutely clear - no, I don't hold those who only watch anime or read only manga as lazy, stupid or something similarly negative. This is entertainment, everyone choose what pleases him most, and this is how it should be. People just want fun, and it's up to them what they see as fun. Bringing example from other medium - no, people who play Dark Souls are not better that those who play Bejeweled simply because it's Nintendo Hard.


You do know if you don't quote me or @ me I won't get the notification right? I simple came here and realize that you actually replied to my post by chance, simple because I saw it at the side of the forum layout. So keep that in mind next time.

Ok, I see your point, glad you make that clear.
 
Jan 2, 11:28 AM

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Britches and hoses downvoting because their favorite ones were ranked below such masterclass!
Logan Lerman is the love of my life. Someday we'll marry.
Asuna, Emilia and Zelda are the ultimate goddesses of everything that's good and pure.
Zack Fair, Mahiro Fuwa and Edward Elric are the best boys of all time.
Hagane no Renkinjutsushi is the best work of fiction ever recorded in human history.
Yuki Kajiura's music can cure and heal every disease ever known by men. Oblivious is her magnum opus.
Women are the scum of this earth, and I can assure you they're well aware of that.

One is a lie. The other ones are not. DEUS VULT!
 
Jan 17, 5:27 AM
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Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 14
You can compare the score here to the score on novelupdates.
https://www.novelupdates.com/series/utsuro-no-hako-to-zero-no-maria/?grr=1

There it scored 4,7/5, which is equal to 9,4/10. What is the main difference in a fanbase? Novelupdate is the website for those who like to read and do it a lot. It is an objective fact that most people aren't getting used to reading, on the contrary, they associate it with studying in the school which is boring. Most of the anime/manga fanbase are people who never or almost never read any books, so if they are, seduced by the high rating of the novel (which btw is placed alongside manga) read it, then get bored and rate it lowly. And, after reading the "top review" they will rate it even lower than they otherwise would. Even though the top review is completely incompetent - how could a person who rated Code Geass and Death Note (two anime are widely known for plot-twists) lowly and Mushishi as 10/10 (anime with literally ZERO plot-twists in it) tell something about plot twists in the novel? To truly enjoy the reading a person should read a lot and get used to it. Manga doesn't work, because you wouldn't read much more than in subbed anime. This is why shitty short visual novels like Emily is Away, Doki-Doki club and Everlasting Summer are more popular than masterpiece level VNs (which are VERY long). The big part of anime-fanbase are teens who hate reading (especially if there isn't much "action"), it is as simple as this. So usually you can expect that rating will fall with time when more and more people attracted by this same rating, lol.
 
Jan 17, 5:57 PM

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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1013
MyOwnGod said:
Most of the anime/manga fanbase are people who never or almost never read any books, so if they are, seduced by the high rating of the novel (which btw is placed alongside manga) read it, then get bored and rate it lowly. And, after reading the "top review" they will rate it even lower than they otherwise would. Even though the top review is completely incompetent - how could a person who rated Code Geass and Death Note (two anime are widely known for plot-twists) lowly and Mushishi as 10/10 (anime with literally ZERO plot-twists in it) tell something about plot twists in the novel? To truly enjoy the reading a person should read a lot and get used to it. Manga doesn't work, because you wouldn't read much more than in subbed anime. This is why shitty short visual novels like Emily is Away, Doki-Doki club and Everlasting Summer are more popular than masterpiece level VNs (which are VERY long). The big part of anime-fanbase are teens who hate reading (especially if there isn't much "action"), it is as simple as this.
If anything speaks loud about how few good books some otaku/anime fans usually read, it's not HakoMari's score. It's Legend of Gaylactic Heroes AKA Legend of Catatonic Heroes AKA Gay Prussians in Space score. Even Three Musketeers alone can beat it with hands tied, and this is one of the most popular pseudo-historical setting books on Earth.
Also, careful with Mushishi. By many it's considered a sacred cow you're not allowed to speak badly. Just look at all those "Please, MAL, group franchises on the Top Anime page, our butts hurt from seeing so many Gintama here" multiple thread - not even single of them ever mentioned that there is just as much Mushishi here (and also several spokons).
Isn't Everlusting Summer predominately a Russian bitards-only thing?
One of quite decent (not great) LNs that was completely ruined by that "people want action, not words" approach in animezation is IS <Infinite Stratos>. It's beauty (at least in first volumes) is in many chill (as chill as Maiku of Onegai*Twins in first episodes) sarcastic inner monologues of protagonist - the same thing that made "Melancholy of Haruhi" so widely popular. Animezation of IS completely removed it (also removing that cold stance of protag, making him just your average generic school boy who blushes from seeing girl's bra), and we was left with just rather generic school slice-of-life harem comedy with occasional mecha duels. Imagine what "Melancholy of Haruhi" would be without Kyon's remarks - just a generic school slice-of-life comedy with dashes of romance and Sci-Fi.
Also, there is some manga that's quite heavy on text:
Though, of course, that's obviously an exception, LoL.

There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value.
 
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