| https://www.pluralist.com/posts/1782-hungary-bans-gender-studies-from-universities/partners/44197 Oh boy, I agree with the government spokesperson that, "There is no economic rationale for studies such as these." Mod edit: The title was mistranslated. Another article with correct translation: http://www.euronews.com/2018/08/30/hungary-to-end-gender-studies-funding I've changed the title of the thread to reflect this. Thanks @DreamingBeats :) |
ArdanazSep 10, 2018 9:54 AM
| More countries should take example from this. |
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| This is definitely a step forward. Now, they just have to ban gender studies in Canada. |
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| This decision is a tad authoritarian for my liking. Let people choose what they want to do with their lives, irrespective of how silly what they want to do may seem. Live and let live, y'all. |
Take care of yourself |
ThatRazorGuy said: This decision is a tad authoritarian for my liking. Let people choose what they want to do with their lives, irrespective of how silly what they want to do may seem. Live and let live, y'all. even if the government have to spend a ton of tax payer currency to fund those courses? i suspect this will soon turn into liberals vs conservative thread, but im hopeful to be proven wrong. |
| You can buy lossless digital music from your favorite Japanese artists on https://ototoy.jp/. The songs are all DRM-free and you can re-download your purchased albums as you wish. Show your support to your favorite artist if you can! ps. if you are looking for Japanese albums, you have to search it in Japanese (not romaji). Just copy and paste the name. For those who want to learn Japanese through anime Resources for learning the language |
DreamingBeats said: ThatRazorGuy said: This decision is a tad authoritarian for my liking. Let people choose what they want to do with their lives, irrespective of how silly what they want to do may seem. Live and let live, y'all. even if the government have to spend a ton of tax payer currency to fund those courses? Yeah I reckon the government funding that shit is a bit much but if a private tertiary institution wants to offer gender studies I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to. |
Take care of yourself |
| Sounds good. Apparently there was very little to no demand for the course anyway, so wasting resources on it is dumb. |
 I can see you |
| Its an Useless Class, Why have a class that Only has two lessons? On a Serious note, This Looks like a nice Step foward. Other places could do the same. |
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HarryRambod22 said: Oh boy, I agree with the government spokesperson that, "There is no economic rationale for studies such as these." its rare that i agree with the likes of you capitalism does not care about sex/genders as long as it gets its cheap workers and profit EDIT: gender equality will add more global economic growth though https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/employment-and-growth/how-advancing-womens-equality-can-add-12-trillion-to-global-growth so ye like i said capitalism only cares about profit more, so if empowering women is profitable then it likes that |
degSep 9, 2018 4:33 PM
| Usually I would be happy with this, but then I thought to myself "If a bunch of people want to spend thousands of dollars on a pointless course that's never going to help them or pay them back, why stop it?" |
 |
Elegade said: Usually I would be happy with this, but then I thought to myself "If a bunch of people want to spend thousands of dollars on a pointless course that's never going to help them or pay them back, why stop it?" That sounds completely reasonable until you realize they are spending other peoples money. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/13/twenty-two-percent-of-student-loan-borrowers-fall-into-default.html Taxes are being used to subsidize private institutions to teach you something that will never help you in a viable fashion economically. Damn the Patriarchy is diabolical. |
 |
| I wonder what Hungary is going to replace that class with. |
 |
Soverign said: Elegade said: Usually I would be happy with this, but then I thought to myself "If a bunch of people want to spend thousands of dollars on a pointless course that's never going to help them or pay them back, why stop it?" That sounds completely reasonable until you realize they are spending other peoples money. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/13/twenty-two-percent-of-student-loan-borrowers-fall-into-default.html Taxes are being used to subsidize private institutions to teach you something that will never help you in a viable fashion economically. Damn the Patriarchy is diabolical. Yeah, but how much money are they actually losing from teaching Gender Studies? I would assume that Gender Studies vs something useful is very far in terms of cost to benefits. Don't get me wrong, Gender Studies is a bullshit course, but I think it benefits people when they are still available because that directly knocks competition. If more people take the bullshit course, less will become productive members of society. But then I guess if you had a welfare system, it would cost more to finance their idiocy if they were homeless. |
|
| Women aren't drafted for war. There is nothing more oppressive than war. |
 |
Bayek said: Women aren't drafted for war. There is nothing more oppressive than war. Aight fair enough, but most countries these days don't have mandatory conscription. |
Take care of yourself |
ThatRazorGuy said: Yeah, not many nations have to fight when America does it for them. I had to sign up for the draft when I turned 18. So when those nations that don't need a military get attacked and we're shorthanded, I'm the one who has to forfeit all of his human rights to go die in the most miserable way imaginable.Bayek said: Women aren't drafted for war. There is nothing more oppressive than war. Aight fair enough, but most countries these days don't have mandatory conscription. Ah, but I'm simply jesting. None of this is to say that men are being oppressed in any serious way in times of peace. |
|
ThatRazorGuy said: Abortion - Women can get abortions but men are REQUIRED to pay child support even to children they don't wantName one right women have that men don't. Conscription - In countries that have mandatory military service, most of them only force men to (the few that also force women are North Korea, Israel, Cuba, and a few others in Africa) Divorce - Most western countries have no-fault divorce that ignores prenuptial agreements completely and forces men to pay alimony and give up possessions of theirs. (The irony of alimony is it comes from a time when women had less rights than men, but the courts decided to keep it even when they earned equal rights) |
Lost_VikingSep 9, 2018 4:34 PM
 |
| Again, it is State run universities. http://www.citadel.edu/root/  |
|
| How advancing women’s equality can add $12 trillion to global growth https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/employment-and-growth/how-advancing-womens-equality-can-add-12-trillion-to-global-growth while gender courses are useless gender equality is important to capitalism that seeks to maximize profit by attracting more female customers and female workers/experts/entrepreneurs |
| There is no economic rationale for life. The idea that we should privilege the economic rationale when making decisions, either individually or collectively, is degenerate and damaging on many levels. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
| Men Still try to hide behind the so convenient excuse that all Feminist try to opress them and they keep calling them "feminazi" or some shit but all they do is just keeping the social gap betwen women and men large, and when I see the boys / men of today how they try to escape around some of the problems they are causing , that is making me sick |
thriach said: Men Still try to hide behind the so convenient excuse that all Feminist try to opress them and they keep calling them "feminazi" or some shit but all they do is just keeping the social gap betwen women and men large, and when I see the boys / men of today how they try to escape around some of the problems they are causing , that is making me sick where are these "Men"? |
 Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places But we're trash, you and me We're the litter on the breeze We're the lovers on the streets Just trash, me and you It's in everything we do It's in everything we do |
Yomiyuki said: where are these "Men"? Its laughable if you think they dont exist So you have not seen any men complaining stupidly about the so-called "superior rights" of today's women and how are they oppressed? Well, I've seen, not necessarily on Mal but I've seen it in general and I have to say it's pathetic. Women have been abused, ill-treated,and sometimes even hunted like some "prize" for thousands of years, and they did not cried like some of these men do today |
loolzSep 9, 2018 7:19 PM
don't play the mental gymnastics game, that's exactly what these people want you to do... just ignore it....  |
nicethings said: don't play the mental gymnastics game, that's exactly what these people want you to do... just ignore it.... what mental gymnastics game, I'm asking them to clarify because it's hard to draw anything from the original post. I don't care if you want to follow me around and be insulting, but don't try to fucking be manipulative to people im trying to talk to. |
Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places But we're trash, you and me We're the litter on the breeze We're the lovers on the streets Just trash, me and you It's in everything we do It's in everything we do |
Yomiyuki said: nicethings said: don't play the mental gymnastics game, that's exactly what these people want you to do... just ignore it.... what mental gymnastics game, I'm asking them to clarify because it's hard to draw anything from the original post. I don't care if you want to follow me around and be insulting, but don't try to fucking be manipulative to people im trying to talk to. how am i being manipulative? you're being manipulative by trying to interrogate the girl into a corner? i've already probably explained a bunch of her disgruntlement in my own post, a lot of women who feel the same way. i don't even identify as a feminist, but i can cite plenty of examples of men on mal who make ridiculous threads that involve trying to throw my entire gender under the bus for no fucking reason |
nicethings said: Yomiyuki said: what mental gymnastics game, I'm asking them to clarify because it's hard to draw anything from the original post. I don't care if you want to follow me around and be insulting, but don't try to fucking be manipulative to people im trying to talk to. how am i being manipulative? you're being manipulative by trying to interrogate the girl into a corner? i've already probably explained a bunch of her disgruntlement in my own post, a lot of women who feel the same way. i don't even identify as a feminist, but i can cite plenty of examples of men on mal who make ridiculous threads that involve trying to throw my entire gender under the bus for no fucking reason because you're making it seem like my only intent is to play mental gymnastics with someone, when i don't even engage with anyone seriously on CE anymore. interrogate? i could've worded my first reply to her better so it wouldn't have come off in a negative way, but no that's enough to go off on and say i was being manipulative or tried to corner her. if you're talking about lonewolf, his threads are more of a backlash against the toxic environment he's in. not really a push to throw every single woman in the world under a bus. |
Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places But we're trash, you and me We're the litter on the breeze We're the lovers on the streets Just trash, me and you It's in everything we do It's in everything we do |
ThatRazorGuy said: DreamingBeats said: even if the government have to spend a ton of tax payer currency to fund those courses? Yeah I reckon the government funding that shit is a bit much but if a private tertiary institution wants to offer gender studies I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to. so apparently the "ban" part was a hyperbolic mistranslation. all the government did is stop funding those courses. no ban involved. The Hungarian government has announced that it wants to discontinue funding gender studies in Hungary. Prime Minister Gergely Gulyás said that as of September 2019 the government will not finance or accredit gender studies courses. “The state does not wish to finance [these] educational activities,” he said. The low number of students enrolled in these programmes “may be a powerful argument for terminating them”, said Gulyás. The move will affect two universities: Eötvös Loránd University (ELTE) and Central European University (CEU), the only institutions in the country offering this degree. It is likely that the government will only withdraw its financial support from gender studies, which will only affect ELTE. CEU's gender studies faculty will not be influenced by the government's decision, because it is privately funded. http://www.euronews.com/2018/08/30/hungary-to-end-gender-studies-funding edit: either the news source linked by op mistranslated what the government said or it was a deliberate fake news. again, the government did not "ban" the course. |
DreamingBeatsSep 9, 2018 7:37 PM
| You can buy lossless digital music from your favorite Japanese artists on https://ototoy.jp/. The songs are all DRM-free and you can re-download your purchased albums as you wish. Show your support to your favorite artist if you can! ps. if you are looking for Japanese albums, you have to search it in Japanese (not romaji). Just copy and paste the name. For those who want to learn Japanese through anime Resources for learning the language |
FashyBrazilian88 said: lupadim? Based and redpilled is that you? nicethings said: Yomiyuki said: if you're talking about lonewolf, his threads are more of a backlash against the toxic environment he's in. not really a push to throw every single woman in the world under a bus. regardless of whether or not there's a gender bias or not... does having a shitty life give him an excuse to make threads shoving people under the bus and actively spreading toxicity that encourages hateful, rude discourse? a. no b. no c. no if you picked a, b, or c, congrats, all those answers are correct and it's not just him and beyond the topic of gender this overarches to all the folks who're posting enabling, toxic topics that they know will only cause flamewars. and you people wonder why rule 7 exists?! most of his threads aren't really met with what you're saying. there's a lot people telling him not to delve into toxic viewpoints. rule 7 was made because mods are too lazy to moderate properly. CE is dead now thanks to that. for as many flamewars we had there were just as many people not being flamey and actually caring to argue their points or freely talking about whatever. without arbitrary restrictions that change depending on what 1(one) mod is online for the whole day. this place is a graveyard now. absolutely dead. the same thing happened to CD years ago, but sure thankfully we have that rule 7, instead of just banning the people that were mainly responsible. and actually making an attempt at moderating. |
YomiyukiSep 9, 2018 7:46 PM
Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places But we're trash, you and me We're the litter on the breeze We're the lovers on the streets Just trash, me and you It's in everything we do It's in everything we do |
nicethings said: Yomiyuki said: most of his threads aren't really met with what you're saying. there's a lot people telling him not to delve into toxic viewpoints. rule 7 was made because mods are too lazy to moderate properly. CE is dead now thanks to that. for as many flamewars we had there were just as many people not being flamey and actually caring to argue their points or freely talking about whatever. without arbitrary restrictions that change depending on what 1(one) mod is online for the whole day. this place is a graveyard now. absolutely dead. the same thing happened to CD years ago, but sure thankfully we have that rule 7, instead of just banning the people that were mainly responsible. and actually making an attempt at moderating. the forums got pretty bad post 2016 election, and now they're just a joke. of course, you probably think they're a joke for the opposite reason that i do. but whatever dude, there's numerous problems & reasons as to why rule 7 exists, i agree that there needs to be amends to it and whatnot, but probably not for the same reasons you do. im not asking you or anyone to root for me. i'm not the sole voice of discontent towards the laziness of these people. we've had long threads where our beloved moderators get bitched out and people complain to them about it, and they'll say "oh yah, we're listening". nothing will change. this board can have 1 thread every other day and they'll still actually think they weren't wrong in imposing the new rules. and idk what you mean by not agreeing with how i would change it. the only thing i would've done was actually warn people and ban the specific bad seeds that contributed nothing to threads besides attempted flaming, spergouts, and generally divisive bullshit. instead of just waiting on brigades to start to ban people. and even if i have the common goal of trying to amend it as you do, i simply cannot ration with enough of your behavior to actually root for you. i mean i explained myself pretty clearly beforehand in a nicer way and it doesn't get across, i explain myself to people all the time, and they still don't get it through to their heads what i mean, but i guess that's the territory that comes with 'redpill' brainwashing. i don't really know how you want me to respond to this? i've already told you that i can understand why you feel the way you do, and our last few exchanges were as civil as they probably could've been. if you want to keep thinking i'm "brainwashed" and act negatively towards me afterwards, there's not much else i can do.i am always fearful that the banhammer, the anvil is dangling over my head, because i say one or two things that "offend" people that actually aren't even offensive, when nobody is getting rid of the harmful nazis who're saying much nastier shit than me... and that's not good. if you mean placeholder and nyu, the former is just a right-winger who gets too into the idea of pushing race as the forefront of discussions. and nyu is banned again i'm assuming, so there's not really much people you'd consider nazis still here. and fashybrazilian seems like an alt. idk who else you'd consider a harmful nazi. |
Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places But we're trash, you and me We're the litter on the breeze We're the lovers on the streets Just trash, me and you It's in everything we do It's in everything we do |
| As much as i couldn't careless about gender studies. Equal rights for women should be a no brainer. As women are just as capable as men in any field you're talking about. |
QeebSep 9, 2018 11:39 PM
masterneutral1 said: As much as I don't give a shit about gender studies crap, to forcefully take it away is kinda off putting. Let people believe in their fantasies. there is no ban. you (the generic "you") can still take gender study courses on private institutions. all the government did is stop funding the course in public universities. nothing more nor less. |
| You can buy lossless digital music from your favorite Japanese artists on https://ototoy.jp/. The songs are all DRM-free and you can re-download your purchased albums as you wish. Show your support to your favorite artist if you can! ps. if you are looking for Japanese albums, you have to search it in Japanese (not romaji). Just copy and paste the name. For those who want to learn Japanese through anime Resources for learning the language |
| Great for Hungary. The rest of Europe should follow the example. |
| All weebs creatures of the galaxy, hear this message. Those of you who listen will not be struck by western animation. You will no longer know hunger, nor pain. Your Anime have come to lead you now. Our strength shall serve as a luminous sun toward which all intelligence may blossom. And the impervious shelter beneath which you will prosper. However, for those who refuse our offer and cling to their western animation ways… For you, there will be great wrath. |
| Hungary might be the most retrograde country in Europe and somehow they are proud of it. |
| Hungary is one of the most Reactionary countries out there. That said it doesn't seem that bad considering it's not outlawing it from all universities only removing it from state universities. Their argument is transparently a farse to cover up their reasons for removal is ideology not economic management because it is literally just two unis that had it so it barely used up money. |
nicethings said: I mean, who the fuck cares if people take a useless course? There's plenty of other courses I can think of that'd be on par with gender studies in terms of overall uselessness. This is too authoritarian imo as well, the massive victimization complexes I see on MAL are hilarious, but you guys are way too whiny about this bullshit, if some bitch wants to take gender studies which'll be of no use to them, and waste their own money, who gives a shit? Guess me and razor are the only ones who don't give a shit Besides, if these courses cease to exist, what'll you have to mock? There'll be nothing left to satirize or make fun of if useless courses (aka underwater basket weaving) cease to exist. Personally I think a philosophy degree is ultimately useless unless you're planning to become a philosophy teacher, and it's only interesting from a rhetorical standpoint, but ultimately what I'd consider to be a fruitless career, compared to a far more useful degree like psychology that employs philosophical concepts and combines them with psychosocial concepts. Just because I find philosophy to be an underwater basket weaving degree doesn't mean I think it should be banned, though. There's plenty of other degrees I can think of that wouldn't be very lucrative, that people choose to pursue anyway. I'm in graphic design, I consider that to be a difficult degree as well, which someone in the more elitist math fields probably considers a waste of time as well. While I definitely think that gender studies is heavily useless, I don't think there's a high demand for philosophy majors either, unless they're teaching philosophy to college kids, which is in itself a pretty damning cycle. You say that they are paying with there own money, probably but what the government pay to maintain is much higher and I think that using that money to fund better studies is obviously better especially that these studies promote nothing but hate. About philosophy majors : https://www.prospects.ac.uk/careers-advice/what-can-i-do-with-my-degree/philosophy and take a look at the numbers. As for the "elitists mathematicians", I'm pretty sure that they consider maths to be of higher value than graphic design, actually some mathematicians consider that theoretical mathematics is superior to applied mathematics but I don't think that they consider graphic design to be useless more like another way were mathematics have graced once again another field. |
nicethings said: I mean, who the fuck cares if people take a useless course? There's plenty of other courses I can think of that'd be on par with gender studies in terms of overall uselessness. This is too authoritarian imo as well, the massive victimization complexes I see on MAL are hilarious, but you guys are way too whiny about this bullshit, if some bitch wants to take gender studies which'll be of no use to them, and waste their own money, who gives a shit? Guess me and razor are the only ones who don't give a shit Except university in Hungary is largely public, meaning it's state-funded. So you can see why government officials worry about the validity of such degrees in the labor market and why they don't want to allocate public funding to something that does not prove itself useful. Besides I assume gender studies are merely a sub-field of social studies, which, on the other hand, are a thing. |
Lost_Viking said: ThatRazorGuy said: Abortion - Women can get abortions but men are REQUIRED to pay child support even to children they don't wantName one right women have that men don't. Conscription - In countries that have mandatory military service, most of them only force men to (the few that also force women are North Korea, Israel, Cuba, and a few others in Africa) Divorce - Most western countries have no-fault divorce that ignores prenuptial agreements completely and forces men to pay alimony and give up possessions of theirs. (The irony of alimony is it comes from a time when women had less rights than men, but the courts decided to keep it even when they earned equal rights) As for the abortion point, there was actually a case where a woman didn't want to have an abortion and wanted to give her child up for adoption. However, the father wanted the child so he got full custody and the wife pays for child support. This just isn't a common occurrence since most times a woman goes to full term and has the child, she wants to keep it. |
| Our current leadership is using anti-far left tactics all the time because it's extremely popular. They also tried to close down the Central European University because it was funded by Soros (ironically, all state run unis rank much lower than CEU). Not long ago the authorities didn't allow a play to be shown in theatres because it had "gay propaganda that could turn our youth gay". We literally had billboards of Soros shown as an evil mastermind in every corner in every city. So not at all surprising they'd go after gender studies, and ignoring populist tactics I kinda support this decision. One, because the degree, at least in the West, is nothing but radical indoctrination and is completely useless. Literally every gender studies grad I ever heard of was a far left journo or a full time Twatter feminist/complainer-activist. Also, think about the problems with the lack of STEM graduates/workers and medical professionals and imagine the worst case scenario. That's Hungary. There's a shortage of tens of thousands of engineers and IT professionals because our wages are hilariously low and most graduates are hired by foreign (usually German) companies...there are entire classes who are already "hired" even though they didn't even graduate yet. Our doctors and other medical professionals are also leaving and the situation is so bad medical staff are saying "fuck this shit" everywhere in the country because one person on average has to look after hundreds of people. I don't exactly remember, but according to a fresh statistic, one GP has ~1600 patients on average. Our govs have been trying to encourage people to go into STEM fields for many years now, for example CompSci students in my city only had to get 280 points while humanities or law students had to get 420+ or 480+. And I think it's the right thing to do. If the market has no demand for degrees such as gender studies, and it's pretty fucking useless then they shouldn't spend tax money on it. Because this decision only affects state-run universities, afaik. |
traed said: Hungary is one of the most Reactionary countries out there. That said it doesn't seem that bad considering it's not outlawing it from all universities only removing it from state universities. Their argument is transparently a farse to cover up their reasons for removal is ideology not economic management because it is literally just two unis that had it so it barely used up money. I strongly agree with you, it's only propaganda in order to make people forget real problems |
| Thread cleaned I removed about 50 posts or so, so over half... yaay..... Please remain civil everyone :> And @nicethings and @yomiyuki your discussion is getting pretty off-topic so if you want to continue that, please do it elsewhere. Inb4 a sarcastic reply |
ArdanazSep 10, 2018 9:46 AM
| I also think I was being respectful and civil. |
 |
| a great step forward id say. if people want to attend private institutions to study this then they can pay their own money or take out loans or whatever to do so. the government shouldn't be funding courses that do not have economic value. though i have to say as a science major, i am a bit biased towards quantifiable social gains. the article says it will affect only 2 colleges so i feel like the article itself is a bit propagandized anyway |
 |
traed said: Yup. Not only that, but what are the odds that they were relying on evidence that gender studies is associated with worse job prospects than other "uneconomic" fields (e.g. most humanities)? Low, I bet.Hungary is one of the most Reactionary countries out there. That said it doesn't seem that bad considering it's not outlawing it from all universities only removing it from state universities. Their argument is transparently a farse to cover up their reasons for removal is ideology not economic management because it is literally just two unis that had it so it barely used up money. Zees said: If it were shown that philosophy and history provided no better job prospects than gender studies, would you support defunding those programs as well?Our current leadership is using anti-far left tactics all the time because it's extremely popular. They also tried to close down the Central European University because it was funded by Soros (ironically, all state run unis rank much lower than CEU). Not long ago the authorities didn't allow a play to be shown in theatres because it had "gay propaganda that could turn our youth gay". We literally had billboards of Soros shown as an evil mastermind in every corner in every city. So not at all surprising they'd go after gender studies, and ignoring populist tactics I kinda support this decision. One, because the degree, at least in the West, is nothing but radical indoctrination and is completely useless. Literally every gender studies grad I ever heard of was a far left journo or a full time Twatter feminist/complainer-activist. Also, think about the problems with the lack of STEM graduates/workers and medical professionals and imagine the worst case scenario. That's Hungary. There's a shortage of tens of thousands of engineers and IT professionals because our wages are hilariously low and most graduates are hired by foreign (usually German) companies...there are entire classes who are already "hired" even though they didn't even graduate yet. Our doctors and other medical professionals are also leaving and the situation is so bad medical staff are saying "fuck this shit" everywhere in the country because one person on average has to look after hundreds of people. I don't exactly remember, but according to a fresh statistic, one GP has ~1600 patients on average. Our govs have been trying to encourage people to go into STEM fields for many years now, for example CompSci students in my city only had to get 280 points while humanities or law students had to get 420+ or 480+. And I think it's the right thing to do. If the market has no demand for degrees such as gender studies, and it's pretty fucking useless then they shouldn't spend tax money on it. Because this decision only affects state-run universities, afaik. |
JoshSep 10, 2018 4:31 PM
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
| And nothing of value was lost. |
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