Overlord (light novel)
Grey-Zone said: ^I couldn't care less about your personal preferences about world building and dystopian society fiction, escpacially if your arguments only rely on hyperboles. You still didn't answer my question: "How could Ainz have done things differently without being stupid or suicidal or an unredeemable jerk?" By having actual character development past season 1. While he indeed didn't answer your question... As poor as their arguments are compared to yours, so poor are yours compared to mine. I don't understand why you try to take the high ground on this discussion when you've still yet to provide good arguments yourself. I've already explained the reasons why Aintz is a bad character a few times now. It's not because of his base design. Its neither because of his ''salaryman'' background, nor ''evil lich'' persona. It's because the character development for him as a person is terrible. There's no logical or otherwise reasonable transitioning between ''salaryman'' or ''evil lich''. On top of that his behaviour as both personas doesn't make sense. Both personas are too overblown for seemingly no reason. The salaryman Aintz is too emotional without any buildup. Why would he get enraged when he projects onto the adventurer, fooling himself in thinking he's somehow insulting his friends? Why would he fool himself like that to begin with? There's no cause, no buildup. It just happens out of the blue. Likewise evil lich Aintz does ''evil things'' without any reason or cause, seemingly just to be evil. There's no plan. No reason to explain ''that's just how I am'' and there's nothing smart or interesting about it either. Unfortunately as Aintzs is the head honcho of Yggdrassil group, that also automatically applies all that failure in characterisation on all of them. The only one that gets away is Demiurge, since in his role and personality he's not deferring to Aintz but just his own thing. Hence why ironically the most sadistic evil character in the series is the only one on Aintz side with actual good characterisation past season 1. Making him the only good character on that side after character development turns into character regression If you don't realise how this completely de-bases the argument that ''we dont like evil characters'' I'm not sure what to say anymore. I can go on about all the other arguments I've already given, but if you don't understand the ones explained clearly first, then I dont see the point. |
| “Ha ha, the synergy between my left and right hand made them feel scared.” Ye Xiu said. |
Tobestik said: That's the nice thing about Overlord, its a power fantasy. Its not boring if the people you squish are different Everytime. Ainz has squished people with religion, manipulation and raw power so far. I can't wait to see what will happen next. Proving their entire argumentation that people only enjoy it for the sadistic power fantasy.. |
| “Ha ha, the synergy between my left and right hand made them feel scared.” Ye Xiu said. |
ThatLamp said: Thanks for answering, sorry if it originaly came out wrong, after all the overlord comunity in MAL is very erratic as I had said before in this treath. Unfortunately with series like this one, it attracts people that are obssesed with it, as well as people that will naturally come to hate it. It's not just a case of the MAL community, its all Overlord communities. In a way MAL is better since the other communities are more satterated by those that are obssessed by the series (not just Overlord either, it applies to a lot of anime) |
| “Ha ha, the synergy between my left and right hand made them feel scared.” Ye Xiu said. |
Elinchayiel said: Is that wrong? I love it.Tobestik said: That's the nice thing about Overlord, its a power fantasy. Its not boring if the people you squish are different Everytime. Ainz has squished people with religion, manipulation and raw power so far. I can't wait to see what will happen next. Proving their entire argumentation that people only enjoy it for the sadistic power fantasy.. |
| @Elinchayiel Ainz's personality as presented is odd? Well, duh! His human mind went into a reproduction of his Overlord avatar body (Overlord is literally the term for his species of his avatar) and now he is both a human mind with an Overlord body which a human mind is not made for, as well as having an Overlord body with a human mind which an Overlord shouldn't have. What could possibly go wrong? Of course his personality would be very odd and perhaps even quirky, because he is a mish-mashed existence that normally shouldn't be able to exist! He didn't take the steps that, I assume, a human would normally have to take to become an undead naturally or by ritual. He just simply fused with his avatar reproduction. Again, it's a matter of course that Ainz's personality would be at least to some extent affected by this. At the very least to me that's within my range of suspension of disbelief. |
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Grey-Zone said: I accept your concession. Since you can't provide a scenario of how a "better" person would have acted in Ainz's scenario without being outright stupid or suicidal, I take it as either you simply deciding to side with the Natives (nothing wrong about that), or perhaps that you are a troll, considering your entire post is a deflection of my argument, suddenly bringing in completely unrelated stuff. The 2ch stuff is wrong because there is a scene that briefly shows Ainz in the real world in a normal apartment where he sits with his gear on. Then there's also the blu-ray special short-story novel Overlord: Prologue, which shows that his world is a dystopian society and that he really is a salaryman. @Elinchayiel You also didn't answer my core question of "what could Ainz have done differently without being stupid or suicidal". You also seem to have a completely off interpretation of how Ainz should or shouldn't act and you inject too many of your own opinions into it. He "shouldn't" have any feelings left for his friends? Seriously? It should be fairly obvious by now that Nazarick is everything to him, almost as if it was his own family, which is one of the main reasons why he tries to hard as a "flawless ruler" in the first place. It was his view before he even became an undead, so obviously being undead wouldn't affect him in that regard. Well a season 4, if done well enough, should resolve the Demi-Urge issue and any remaining lingering questions regarding that.. My apologies, but I honestly did asssume that examples how Aintz could of acted instead would be incredibly obvious...apparently that is not the case. I honestly dont mean offense here, but it seems I greatly overestimated your understanding of politics or strategical thinking.. Grey-Zone said: @Elinchayiel You also didn't answer my core question of "what could Ainz have done differently without being stupid or suicidal". As I already pointed out how Aintz putting himself out there like that is a suicidal move, not a defensive one, I wont mention that. Instead take a look at season 1: Aintz does the following in this season: -He hides his face preventing people from seeing him as undead, something to be feared. -The way he handles the attack on the village allows him to annihilate the entire attacking force, while also saving the 'captain', while at the same time preventing the villages from seeing his power. -He doesn't save the villagers untill the end, making it seem like he took pity and decided to help against his initial thoughts All of the above is cunning and it displays Aintz ability to think tactically and get a good result while also staying hidden, and not having to do much. He also joins the adventurers guild as a hero providing a good cover for both his abilities and his reason to go around investigation the situation in the world. As an adventurer people only judge him for the quests he completes, and the people he saves. Not the way he acts. In addition adventurers have a way of seeing unimportant to the rulers of a kingdom as they have no attachment or anyone in power they are loyal to. Making this disguise ideal for both gaining influence with the people, and going around the world without being hunted down or investigated. Aintz did those things in season 1. These are very good examples of how ''a better person'' would of done things. Cleverly, cunning. Or at bare minimum, with some thoughts put into their actions, some thoughts on how others would perceive him. It's like how Aintz is suprised when people are scared by his undead visage, but he then realises it's better to hide it from people so he doesn't stand out. Where are the moments these things happen during season 2 or 3? What happend to Aintz being clever, or even trying to be clever? It's like a switch got switched and he just said ''well whatever. I'm the most OP thing in this world anyone, why not just BURN DESTROY SQUISH SQUISH everything?!'' What he could of done instead is: -Save the day as adventurer. Without Demiurge acting up, as that only places suspicion on him, seeing how he let Demiurge go like that. -Ensure the princess or whoever he supports becomes the main factor while staying in the background as ''just an adventurer supporter'' -Influence the kingdom and other places in the same way, and have those kingsdoms move for him -Influence the kingdom and other places to subtly populate and fortify the area around the tomb to provide more cover. (what happens at the village is too slow moving and inconsequential to really do anything, its more like a pet project then anything actually helpful at that scope) -Scout the world using magic. He can easily do that with the magic he has at his disposal. Why would he even need to leave the crypt at all? -Buff up people like the kingdomgs heros and adventurers, aid then with magical support from long range, including magic to allow him to use them as scouts. This way he has disposable scouts or spys without risking any of his more precious guardians. That's just a few examples I thought of in a minute of time. Plenty of things he could of done instead. Especially considering he basically doesn't do anything and leaves it all to Demiurge after season 1... Why is he even named the Overlord if he doesnt overlord anything? Grey-Zone said: You also seem to have a completely off interpretation of how Ainz should or shouldn't act and you inject too many of your own opinions into it. Eh, I've almost never met anyone that could level my interpretation, nevermind surpass it. As for the parts that are speculation, I dont think I've ever argued that what I speculate about (like Demiurge possbibly controlling Aintz) is ever being more then just speculation. Certainly at this level of discussion leveling with my interpretation is not likely to happen.. As for the reason why, since I did promise to explain: I base my interpretation off what actually happens. And off how characters actually act, not how I want them to act. Not how I delude myself into thinking they act. There's rarely a need for my opinion as there is rarely room left for subjective interpretation. Unlike yourself and a few others in here, that seem to need to fill the blanks with opinions...for me there just aren't really any blanks. And when they are, I leave them open to speculation, not fill them with an opinion ''of how I believe it should be'' Hence why I called Demiurge controlling Aintz only a ''plot thread'' Speculation of the 'blank' that is ''the glowing magical effect inhibiting Aintz emotions''. Demiurge controlling Aintz via those is not my opinion. Its simply what I perceive as the most likely speculation. Which is not saying much as there's almost no information given concerning that magic effect, so it can be really pretty much anything. Hence speculation, not opinion. Grey-Zone said: He "shouldn't" have any feelings left for his friends? Seriously? It should be fairly obvious by now that Nazarick is everything to him, almost as if it was his own family, which is one of the main reasons why he tries to hard as a "flawless ruler" in the first place. It was his view before he even became an undead, so obviously being undead wouldn't affect him in that regard. The way he acts during his ''evil lich'' persona makes it appear as tho he has no feelings whatsoever. So logically between that and the way he acts in the new world it would seem very likely that he has no feelings for his friends at all. Why? Well we know that Touch Me was the one who got him into the guild, and one can argue he's the most important reason for aintz current power. We also know that Touch Me was big on protecting people from injustic. So what does Aintz do? He doesn't actually care about the personalities of any of the other Yggdrassil players he was friends with. Atleast at minimum, none of that is shown past season 1? Remember, its important to note that the personalities of his friends was vastly different from the ones they made for their Guardians when they were playing around. He doesn't seem to consider at all how his friends would respond if they were also summoned to that world and saw the suffering Aintz inflicted. Ofcourse all of this could easily be averted by simply showing more of his friends and showing them with similar evil sadistic tendencies as Aintz himself later displays. Amusingly this would help cement Aintz's change in the new world and give credbility to you claiming he cares a lot about his friends (enough to become *even more* like them). But this never happens in the anime. Does it happen in the LN? If it doesnt either, then its a really great example why the character development in Overlord is terrible. Such an easy solution to make Aintz a good character without changing his ''evil lich'' personality. And a good example why I have beef with the writting quality after season 1. All the flashbacks about his friends do is is contrast with how he never relates his friends to the new world. It feels like he completely replaced them with the guardians, who all have a vastly different personality. (as we can see from Shaltears creator's backflash his personality is vastly different from Shaltear) Again, backing up your opinion with actual writing from the author would make yours a good argument. However lack of such quality of characterisation is precisely why I hate the series (since season 3) to begin with. I hate how the show went from strong writting to poor quality writting seemingly all for the sake of ''sadistic fetish''. I dont care about Aintz being evil. That's precisely why I started to like and love the series in season 1. Aintz' point of view was one vastly different from that of the normal people in the new world. And then the author went and ruined it by just changing the Aintz people to ''they are really all sadist evil on the inside, lol. Fooled you!'' If they went with that from the start or made a natural or well explained transition into that during the series, Overlord wouldnt have turned from great to terrible even tho the begin and end results in Aintz character would still be the same. |
| “Ha ha, the synergy between my left and right hand made them feel scared.” Ye Xiu said. |
Tobestik said: His human mind went into a reproduction of his Overlord avatar body (Overlord is literally the term for his species of his avatar) and now he is both a human mind with an Overlord body which a human mind is not made for, as well as having an Overlord body with a human mind which an Overlord shouldn't have. What could possibly go wrong? Of course his personality would be very odd and perhaps even quirky, because he is a mish-mashed existence that normally shouldn't be able to exist! He didn't take the steps that, I assume, a human would normally have to take to become an undead naturally or by ritual. He just simply fused with his avatar reproduction. Again, it's a matter of course that Ainz's personality would be at least to some extent affected by this. At the very least to me that's within my range of suspension of disbelief. The anime doesn't actually give any information on how it affects him. This is where you are inserting your opinion into the more objective interpretation of whats happening to him. Or more simply put: you are filling the plotholes with your headcannon. Then I guess we can settle this discussion pretty easily with: - You don't understand enough, dont interpretate well enough to turn your believe into disbelief. As very simply put, him randomly switching between personas dont fit with your perception at all. Ofcourse being in an undead body would affect his personality. As would having the power of a living god. (something I mentioned before, something you seem to have not even considered yourself) But does either explain the switches in personas? They dont. Anyone that pays some decent amount of attention can see this. Perhaps its actually explained in the LN. But since I've yet to see any information on that, I guess it doesnt matter for the discussion. Since the topic was about the anime anyway, whether through fault of poor adaptation or original source lacking the end result is still the same: The Overlord anime is great in season 1, okay/good in season 2, and terrible in season 3. |
| “Ha ha, the synergy between my left and right hand made them feel scared.” Ye Xiu said. |
00784212 said: Are you comparing people who enjoy Overlord to pedos and furries? Wow. Thats quite a comparison.Tobestik said: Is that wrong? I love it. About as wrong as celebrating child abuse fiction (sick pedos), or raping animals fiction (sick furries). No one can stop those sickf*cks from doing it , but they became an internet's punching bag for a reason. |
| @Elinchayiel The plans you show all require Nazarick to keep moving in secret. Meanwhile the "unknown players with one or more world items" are in the worst case scenario multiple lvl 100 humanoid player(s) which can just call themselves "heroes" to appear in public. By your method Nazarick would be screwed because there would be a fairly long time period where Nazarick would have to adjust things in the puppet countries to allow themselves to show up in full force without being viewed as the "enemy of the whole world" - and that is only if they manage to do that kind of damage control and don't just get named as the "enemy of the whole world" on the spot. Keep in mind that keeping up appearences is so important that even evilness incarnated Demi-Urge says that's it's important to not just have their way with pure violence by forcefully seizing the whole world. And you miss the subtle writing of the series. You say Ainz never does any good stuff? This has been cleverly hidden, but he does actually do that, based on following Touch Me's teachings. He always uses the same rationalization, the same excuse, as he did the first time, from Season 1 Episode 3: Ainz: "Hmm? They don't seem to be bandits." Satoru: (This is strange. I would have fainted if I saw this before coming to this world. How can I watch all this so calmly?) Sebas: "What should we do?" Ainz: "Leave them. There is no reason or benefit to save them." Sebas: "Understood." Ainz: "Touch-san?!" *YGGRASSIL FLASHBACK HAPPENS* Ainz: "Hmm, hmhmhmhmhmhm!" Satoru: (Either way, I eventually have to test my strength in this world.) Ainz: "Sebas, I am going to this village. Raise the security level of Nazarick to the maximum." Sebas: "Yes!" Ainz: "Tell Albedo to join me, fully armed. Next, prepare the reserve forces. Send in a few soldiers who are skilled at stealth or have the invisibility skill." Sebas: "Understood." Ainz: Touch-san I will repay my debt to you. - GATE -. This scene right here establishes a pattern, which repeats itself multiple times and likely off-screen as well. Notice that there are several scenes in the series where Ainz decides to forego the benefit of Nazarick in favor of a test or experiment with an uncertain result. Yet in all these cases Ainz decides to go with the uncertain experiment, instead of the certain benefit. And it pretty much always results in an individual or group being treated better or in a more friendly way than going with the certain benefit option would. It's to the point where some Nazarick residents like Sebas realize this pattern. The first thing that Sebas thought of to say to Ainz in desperation to get Tuare to become the first normal human from the new world to officially join Nazarick was the ridiculous sounding idea of "she can cook homecocked meals! We have not done an experiment on New World dishes integration for the palette of Nazarick yet!" That should show that by that time this pattern has become very appearent to the guardians and Sebas and gives us quite a bit of insight into Ainz. He still continues to use this rationalization to act humanely in this manner. What about that "sadistic fetish"? I don't remember any such indication that is supposed to make the audience have the thought. If anything, the whole "sympathy for Arche and her sister" indicates the opposite. In the case of Clementine it was more of a "evil vs evil" situation, as well as showing off that Ainz does actually have the ability to get attached to INDIVIDUAL people and get a liking for them, even if they are not members of Nazarick. There is no indication that that part of him disappeard at this point. Infact the case of Nemu only enhanced that point - when Ainz says to Aura that he only judges people based on their usefulness, he is lying, not to Aura but to himself. And none of his actions toward those he views either neutrally or negatively have any effect on whether or not he can treat those he gets along with well. Regarding the residents of Nazarick... I guess you can say it's the fault of the anime. Appearently it tried too hard to "censor" all the hints about the majority of Nazarick's residents to have evil dispositions, so that's a valid criticism against the anime adaptation. |
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00784212 said: 1. that Ainz does have a potentially less bloody alternative when dealing with NW. He just didn't consider it it because he's a sociopathic genocidal moron. While I agree that plans that are better would certainly exist, you have to think about the completion (just the general concept is always easily done, they have to account for any person involved, any "irrational" people doing something stupid that could ruin the plan like an enraged fired former knight attempting to revenge kill the impersonated person and potentially exposing the existence of doppelgangers, etc.), the implementation (will it be fine with the people involved in executing the plan to not be in Nazarick? Would anything in Nazarick be properly functioning if both Albedo and Demi-Urge were busy elsewhere?) and any risk-factors involved (potential group of lvl 100 players with one or more world-level items, as far as Ainz is concerned). Ainz admits that he cannot think of plans on the same level of effectiveness as Demi-Urge. So while it's certainly possible, I agree, it's also severely impractical. 00784212 said: 2. Ainz is an invader from another world, he have no right to comment or judge on matters related to the natives I don't understand why you are so stuck up on the word "invader from another world". In the first place the idea that you "own" land or territory is a concept humans came up with, or perhaps copied from animals like wolves - and among wolves this constantly changes according to the law of the jungle and who is the strongest. Usually the current nations are built on a history of blood where someone took someone's else territory and I think almost anyone would be angry if someone tries to invade your territory, no matter the reason. You keep brining this "invader" thing up, but I still don't know what your point is really. 00784212 said: 3. Satoru Suzuki's backstory is just a incoherent delusions in form of info dump made by an amateur. It's a trade-off for any fantasy setting. Either you drag on the introductary phase by "poetically" setting up the setting, or you give a short, summarized info-dump that introduces the setting quickly and start off the story much earlier, or something in-between. Overlord is in-between, but leans more on the "doing it quickly" side. It's a bit dragging on in the beginning in the case of Overlord, because it has to introduce the "real world" a bit, then introduce YGGDRASSIL and then again deal with introducing the basic changes that happened when going to the New World, so take that into consideration. It's something inevitable with any relatively lore-heavy franchise, that includes the like of the Toaru index/railgun franchise, as well as the Fate franchise. I think the Mahouka franchise has a lot of lore as well. Compared to these, Overlord is actually not that lore-heavy. And the results speak for itself: The LN went through an editor and was commercialized. The "LNs ranked by franchise for the first half of 2018" ranking list shows Overlord as #1. It seems to be doing well enough. 00784212 said: @Grey-Zone How about playing fair by incorporating the same amount of plot-armor and deus ex machina from the original canon "plan" to the proposed alternative too? You mean he should rely on his OP luck or whatever phenomenom that's causing him to succeed somehow no matter what he does? That's a bit of meta thinking, don't you think? I mean there is probably some kind of luck value, considering one of the buffs was called "GREATER LUCK", but should you really rely on something so uncertain as luck? Remember, there is no "second chance". As far as he knows, if he himself dies, unlike his subordinates, he'll likely die for forever, with no chance at revival or respawn. Also there is the possibility that one of his enemies has equal or greater luck. In that case he'd be screwed if he made any half-assed plans. I mean we already saw that Enri seems to have a similar level of luck where in front of certain death, just by chance, an immortal intelligent undead, who doesn't only purely exist to hate the living, happens to think of his friend and spontanously decides to make her attackers into target practise and on top of that gives her two horns on a whim that she just so happens to fulfill the secret conditions for at the second use at the next time of crisis. It almost makes one wonder if Ainz's luck resonanted with her accross dimensions and caused him to appear near her in the first place. No, just kidding, I am not believing the last part. Still it's not unthinkable that someone hostile to him could have a similar kind of luck to cancel out Ainz's. Though I must say that Ainz is extra lucky though, that one of those with this kind of luck from among the natives, Enri, is pretty much his underling. |
Grey-ZoneSep 28, 2018 11:03 AM
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wow, couldn't have said it better... |
Most of the part talking about "what he should have done" can be responded to with hindsight bias. It's always 20/20. Some of it is just plain wrong and some are spoilers for future plot threads, so I'll say no more. Also the feelings part and the guardians not being like their creators is entirely inaccurate. Ainz is stated to not care about humans because he is undead. The guardians don't care because they were designed not to. Whether the other 41 supreme beings would or would not care isn't relevant, completing ignoring whether or not their races would affect their opinions anyway. Regardless, Demiurge is the most sadistic- as his creator was (even in real life, mind you, ignoring the game itself). Touch Me was the nicest- as Sebas is. Takimichauchi was honorable warrior- so is Cocytus. Peroncinco was into kinky porn- so he made Shalltear kinky. Etc. Finally I think you were overestimating his intelligence in the first season and underestimating it now. Nothing that he did in the first season was particularly "smart-" he just didn't act stupidly. A lot of it was common sense or based on real life/Yggdrasil experience, which no one in that world (including the guardians) has. He was made the leader of the guild because he was the best organizer...that doesn't mean he knows how to manipulate a country's nobles or how to run a country himself. He was a salaryman, not a politician or a lawyer. And speculation IS opinion. |
BStrifeSword114Sep 28, 2018 12:35 PM
| Great response, @duhu1148 ! I'll just address the points that weren't addressed yet: 00784212 said: Ainz whined about being invaded. While being an alien invader himself. Because he's also an irredeemable jerk. No, it's as I have stated before. Anyone would be angry at an invader, no matter if they themselves are invaders or not. It's the basic territorial nature of human beings and probably high-level undead as well, considering how a high-level undead being in control of the tomb was the first thing that came to the workers' mind when they speculated about who might occupy it. 00784212 said: GucciGang was popular. A garbage is still a garbage no matter how much it sells. I'm just pointing it out. I don't know what GucciGang is, but I'll just quote the signature of @duhu1148 here for reference: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." "One man's trash is another man's treasure." And that's all that needs to be said on this issue. Because fiction/literature is at the end of the day still a form of art. |
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00784212 said: He didn't do those out of evil, they were experiments. How is Ainz sociopathic if he isn't even human? Anyway, all of those things you mentioned were committed for the greater good.Tobestik said: Are you comparing people who enjoy Overlord to pedos and furries? Wow. Thats quite a comparison. people who enjoy Overlord that celebrates child abuse, rape, kidnapping, mass murder, torture and pretty much everything that sociopathic genocidal moron that called himself Ainz did EDIT: These creatures are called edgelords I enjoy Overlord by hating Ainz. |
duhu1148 said: Most of the part talking about "what he should have done" can be responded to with hindsight bias. It's always 20/20. Some of it is just plain wrong and some are spoilers for future plot threads, so I'll say no more. Also the feelings part and the guardians not being like their creators is entirely inaccurate. Ainz is stated to not care about humans because he is undead. The guardians don't care because they were designed not to. Whether the other 41 supreme beings would or would not care isn't relevant, completing ignoring whether or not their races would affect their opinions anyway. That's the thing about the way I interpretate: I dont do hindsight reasoning for a show or story I've yet to complete. Nor do I predict what can happen in the future, I try to leave it as open as possible, only considering the most likely occurances as pure speculation on my part. But I see you already use excuses right away so you won't have to explain whats ''just plain wrong'' In response to '' the feelings part'' I already gave an example, how can a fact of what is shown in the anime be inaccurate? Shaltears creator most definately displayed a vastly different personality from Shaltear in the flashback we saw of him. In addition the relation between him and his sister, and Shaltear and the 2 twins was clearly were different, as the relationship was programmed into those guardians that way. One of them even mentions that. It is very clearly stated several times, by both Aintz and his guardians, that the guardians were created in the way their creators, Aintz friends, wanted them to be. At the very least for those creators who have flashbacks, their personalities are quite different from their guardians. Even if you wanted to feign ignorance by claiming we havent seen much of the creators, then I can simply point at Pandora's who as a radically different personality from his creator: Aintz. duhu1148 said: Regardless, Demiurge is the most sadistic- as his creator was (even in real life, mind you, ignoring the game itself). Touch Me was the nicest- as Sebas is. Takimichauchi was honorable warrior- so is Cocytus. Peroncinco was into kinky porn- so he made Shalltear kinky. Etc. Touch Me had a very different personality from Sebas. His creed might of been the same, but thats pretty much it. Peroncinco wasn't a blood thirsty vampire, was he? When talking about his sister voicing an eroge he certainly didnt sound like Shaltear did either. Aintz created Pandoras in that way because he ''felt it was cool at the time''. Each of the creators had their own reasons for making the guardians the way they did. Some might well have made them exactly in their image. But at the very least of the ones we are shown that is very obviously not the case. The closest is Sebas and Touch Me, yet all they share is their creed. Not their personality. duhu1148 said: Finally I think you were overestimating his intelligence in the first season and underestimating it now. Neither. In the second and third season his intelligence as an individual just...isn't there. He's like a mindless puppet. An undead. Heh. See what I did there? In the second season there's still some room for doubt, as its not entirely clear whether Demiurge or Aintz is the one planning things. That's not the case for the third season. As for overestimating his intelligence in the first season: duhu1148 said: Nothing that he did in the first season was particularly "smart-" he just didn't act stupidly. A lot of it was common sense or based on real life/Yggdrasil experience, which no one in that world (including the guardians) has. People often say that sort of thing. I consider it smart. And tactical/strategic games are my forte. By the way, aside from smart there is also ''genius''. Something that is not stupid isnt automatically very smart...an average person would not have remotely considered doing the things he did, tho. As much as people like to think they know a lot of things, reality is most people just aren't that smart, at all. That aside, whether you would call it being clever or ''using the knowledge he has well'' (which hey, is exactly the same thing, but lets ignore that), that does not explain why Aintz does not use that same method anymore. IE: why does he stop using his brain? As for manipulating countries and what not, there's many games for that too. And ironically as fate would have it, that's a bit similar to what he did in Yggdrassil, as theirs was the top guild was it not? So he should have a decent understanding of politics. A lot of what I said is also common sense or gaming experience. Those aren't exactly intricate politics or complex strategies. In fact, I would say: ''None of those options would be particularly "smart-" he just shouldnt act stupidly.'' See I can downplay cleverness just like you can. duhu1148 said: He was made the leader of the guild because he was the best organizer...that doesn't mean he knows how to manipulate a country's nobles or how to run a country himself. He was a salaryman, not a politician or a lawyer. I agree that Aintz is not worth much at all without his OP items and character.So we do agree on something then? That said, your argument itself doesnt make much sense. No idea what the hell a lawyer has to do with any of this. That's certainly one job that would be practically useless in this situation. How is a lawyer relevant to dealing with countries? I have no idea. Perhaps yours are, but mine certainly aren't. When I speculate I question, I wonder, I consider. I dont judge or presume to an absolute. Speculations are subjective, but that does not automatically make them opinions. But I'm not sure if im still bored enough after this post to continue. I mean I'm at the point now where I have to watch out I dont contradict my own arguments...as thats the only way I can get counterargumented...by myself >_> Shows how low level this discussion is.. |
| “Ha ha, the synergy between my left and right hand made them feel scared.” Ye Xiu said. |
00784212 said: You can infer their purpose, they weren't stated directly. The skinning experiments we're conducted to find cheaper parchment which will reduce costs in the long run. The crossbreeding experiments were conducted so that people in his Utopia are able to love each other. The children were kidnapped so that they would be raised up as loyal slaves of Ainz. This means that they won't question Ainz orders. The people that got tortured deserved it imo. He doesn't commit mass murder, the kingdoms soldiers were enemies in a war. The quagoa were killed by shalltear.Tobestik said: He didn't do those out of evil, they were experiments. How is Ainz sociopathic if he isn't even human? Anyway, all of those things you mentioned were committed for the greater good. How about backing that up, pretty please :3 Show me one instance in the manga/anime/LN up to current publication, where Ainz personally and not on anyone behalf, states that the reason for his very own person willfully committed all those bloodbath are for the sake of benefiting those outside of his own person and his own circle a.k.a the greater good. @Elinchayiel The word you're looking for is being Savvy (sav vy) |
Good lord. People who play tactical games aren't necessarily "smart-" what level of arrogance is that? Yggdrasil wasn't even a tactical game-it's a MMO, so what difference does it make? Touch Me is like Sebas- oh wait, they're not both butlers, that means they're complete 180's. And Peroncinco isn't a vampire...so yeah, nothing like Shalltear in personality, clearly. This is such a poor argument. Let me guess- Demiurge and Climb are both the same, since they're both male right? You completely ignore key bits of information and are putting too much emphasis on others. And the fact that you do not understand that is mind-boggling. This is like to a wall. Buh-bye. |
00784212 said: killing your enemies in war isn't mass murder. Ainz gave the order but shalltear took it to another levelTobestik said: You can infer their purpose, they weren't stated directly. The skinning experiments we're conducted to find cheaper parchment which will reduce costs in the long run. The crossbreeding experiments were conducted so that people in his Utopia are able to love each other. The children were kidnapped so that they would be raised up as loyal slaves of Ainz. This means that they won't question Ainz orders. The people that got tortured deserved it imo. ... Even responding to your argument is embarrassing. Then why not gives me the instance where it's indirectly stated? Like from a third party, or inner monologue that moron Ainz spouts every couple of paragraph. Or even info dump somewhere in the omake section. You're advocating defending torture, mutilation,forced-breeding, child kidnapping and enslavement, and also genocide for f*ck sake. Back it up properly. Tobestik said: He doesn't commit mass murder, the kingdoms soldiers were enemies in a war. The quagoa were killed by shalltear. - murdered large number of people = mass murderer - Ainz gave the order. Ainz is a sociopathic genocidal moron. |
00784212 said: @duhu1148 Perhaps the word he's trying to use is savvy. Or "having a degree of shrewdness" or simply wit. And to be fair you quoted his older post while in the newer post we had discussed "what Ainz can do that are better than what he currently do without outright being idiotic or suicidal" to sums it up: - His using Adventurer's guild route - and my using doppelganger route You can scroll up to read the discussion yourself, TL;DR version is the point reached was simply: "Ainz does have better choice when it comes to dealing with NW" He only didn't takes those route because Ainz is a sociopathic genocidal moron. Or well, rather that he was written as one post season 1/2. It's very amusing that one of the arguments used is ''you just dont like evil characters'', when the destruction of good evil characters is precisely why I hate Overlord season 3. ''even Evil has standards'' Not all evil is chaotic batshit, stupidly insane. 00784212 said: Perhaps the word he's trying to use is savvy. Or "having a degree of shrewdness" or simply wit. Cleverness is the same as wit or shrewdness. These are just different things of saying the same thing. Savvy just means he's familiar with the the setting and thus doesnt need to be smart, he's ''experienced''. ps: youll have to mention what part of my post your replying to because I always forget what I wrote. :P But yeah, I've already given up responding to them. It's tiring when I even have to explain extremely basic knowledge such as tactical plays being clever. Who on earth would call that arrogant? Must have some extraordinary low self-esteem.. |
| “Ha ha, the synergy between my left and right hand made them feel scared.” Ye Xiu said. |
I'm not going to bother replying, a lot of this is really semantics anyway. For the record, I don't entirely disagree with everything either of you has said. I don't think Ainz is sadistic, though it can easily be argued otherwise. I DO think he's evil, though it can be argued otherwise (I played Devil's Advocate early in the topic and pointed that out). The only thing I'll stand firm on is his intelligence; I think he's just an average 20-30 year old salaryman. Trying to argue otherwise requires ignoring too many key bits of information and a lot of hindsight bias. Well regardless, it was nice talking to both of you. Have a good day. |
| What with all these people making their first post on MAL be either this or the "question to EP8 watchers" thread? Or is it really true that people for some reason don't want to participate here with their real account and so create all these alts? Or perhaps all of them are a single person faking a conversation from different angles? Give me a break already ~ Oh well... I guess the final episode PV won't air until Monday. |
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Kinda ironic that a guy named after a Game of Thrones character, a show filled to the brim with rape and senseless torture, is calling people sickos for enjoying an ANIMATED show following fictional characters. Ahh, one of those worthless comments where a person adds nothing to the discussion but rather prefers to seek attention, and that's exactly what you do. To start with, MY character has nothing to do with rape and torture. If MY character comes from a cruel world that makes me what? - A sadist who enjoys rape and torture? How come? Did you toss logic out of the window together with the brains? Now If i had a portrait of a GOT character who does rape and torture - that would be ironic indeed. But saying i have no "say" about this subject because of the WORLD character belongs to is stupidity at its best. Game of thrones has rape, torture, injustice and violence, so does berserk, so does overlord, so does shitloads of stories, games, books. Watching such scenes is one thing, enjoying it is another. Are you following? I don't know why i even have to explain such obvious things but it seems some people are that... Narrow-minded... Watching a 15yo kid getting drained of hope, tortured, killed and then dismembered is not something i enjoyed despite watching it. See the difference? Watched - Enjoyed. Only sadistic sickos can ENJOY this scene and i opened the thread to make sure if i'm correct or wrong. Why? Pretty big number of people enjoyed the said episode because of said scene so i had to find out. There was one guy who openly admitted he likes torture in real life so he was fine with it. Some said they enjoyed because MC did it. Some claimed the show was always like this. Others started discussing how the show is about evil in general so it's somehow ok to enjoy and blablabla, eventually changing the subject. Right now people are even defending the said atrocity by justifying the villain and even blaming the victim. Ridiculous but it's a sad world... So, if you actually meant what you said then know. You can be a perfectly normal person and watch shows or play games with rape, torture elements in them (though if rape torture is all the game/show is based on or about, then sorry but you definitely have some mental issues). Watching game of thrones doesn't make you a sicko. Watching and liking one of 1000characters from GOT doesn't make you a sicko. Watching a rape scene from GOT and saying the episode was 10/10 because of the rape scene does make you a sicko. Liking, defending, justifying said sicko villain for doing sicko things - does make you a sicko. Was that easy enough to understand? |
Grey-Zone said: What with all these people making their first post on MAL be either this or the "question to EP8 watchers" thread? Or is it really true that people for some reason don't want to participate here with their real account and so create all these alts? Or perhaps all of them are a single person faking a conversation from different angles? Give me a break already ~ Oh well... I guess the final episode PV won't air until Monday. Give you a break? You seem to be the only one around with a lot of free time on their hands already. No one's forcing you to stay. You said enough and even chickened out from our personal discussion despite the fact i'm no alt, so what? Seeking for more attention or something? Do you feel like it's your "duty" to protect the name of the show or some other ridiculous reasons? so i wonder what's the problem and why even post what you posted? It's not even your thread lol. Do something somewhere else if you don't have anything to do in this thread. |
AzorAhai said: Grey-Zone said: What with all these people making their first post on MAL be either this or the "question to EP8 watchers" thread? Or is it really true that people for some reason don't want to participate here with their real account and so create all these alts? Or perhaps all of them are a single person faking a conversation from different angles? Give me a break already ~ Oh well... I guess the final episode PV won't air until Monday. Give you a break? You seem to be the only one around with a lot of free time on their hands already. No one's forcing you to stay. You said enough and even chickened out from our personal discussion despite the fact i'm no alt, so what? Seeking for more attention or something? Do you feel like it's your "duty" to protect the name of the show or some other ridiculous reasons? so i wonder what's the problem and why even post what you posted? It's not even your thread lol. Do something somewhere else if you don't have anything to do in this thread. I can make continous walls of text if I feel motivated enough. But applying our real world morality on a guy from a dystopian society future who got transported into a dark high-fantasy world with all he has from his hyper-fantasy setting virtual reality game, including his undead avatar's body, makes me just roll my eyes at some point. This discussion had been going in circles lately anyway and I feel like I have said the same thing several times already. Honestly, I prefered all the crazy discussions from the Aldnoah.Zero threads and these very REALLY toxic and had much more people participating, because Urobutcher. |
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Grey-Zone said: applying our real world morality? What? Seriously? What have you been doing the entire time? How is it possible NOT to add our real world morality when discussing fiction?! You don't make sense man! P.S going in circles? I guess that's what you say when thing don't go "the way you want". That explains why you jump in and out of discussions.AzorAhai said: Give you a break? You seem to be the only one around with a lot of free time on their hands already. No one's forcing you to stay. You said enough and even chickened out from our personal discussion despite the fact i'm no alt, so what? Seeking for more attention or something? Do you feel like it's your "duty" to protect the name of the show or some other ridiculous reasons? so i wonder what's the problem and why even post what you posted? It's not even your thread lol. Do something somewhere else if you don't have anything to do in this thread. I can make continous walls of text if I feel motivated enough. But applying our real world morality on a guy from a dystopian society future who got transported into a dark high-fantasy world with all he has from his hyper-fantasy setting virtual reality game, including his undead avatar's body, makes me just roll my eyes at some point. This discussion had been going in circles lately anyway and I feel like I have said the same thing several times already. Honestly, I prefered all the crazy discussions from the Aldnoah.Zero threads and these very REALLY toxic and had much more people participating, because Urobutcher. |
AzorAhai said: Grey-Zone said: applying our real world morality? What? Seriously? What have you been doing the entire time? How is it possible NOT to add our real world morality when discussing fiction?! You don't make sense man! P.S going in circles? I guess that's what you say when thing don't go "the way you want". That explains why you jump in and out of discussions.I can make continous walls of text if I feel motivated enough. But applying our real world morality on a guy from a dystopian society future who got transported into a dark high-fantasy world with all he has from his hyper-fantasy setting virtual reality game, including his undead avatar's body, makes me just roll my eyes at some point. This discussion had been going in circles lately anyway and I feel like I have said the same thing several times already. Honestly, I prefered all the crazy discussions from the Aldnoah.Zero threads and these very REALLY toxic and had much more people participating, because Urobutcher. Sure, if that's how you want to interpret it all, feel free to enjoy your victory. Congratulations. |
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Grey-Zone said: you just proved my words and i had perfect reasons to speculate. And victory? Like "me won anotha argument ova internetz?" So immature... AzorAhai said: applying our real world morality? What? Seriously? What have you been doing the entire time? How is it possible NOT to add our real world morality when discussing fiction?! You don't make sense man! P.S going in circles? I guess that's what you say when thing don't go "the way you want". That explains why you jump in and out of discussions. Sure, if that's how you want to interpret it all, feel free to enjoy your victory. Congratulations. You just can't and won't admit you ran out of counter arguments and firstly ignored my discussion, then came with an even ridiculous reason to justify why you did it and now THIS to conclude it all. You know what? This works both ways: congratulations on "actually" winning. |
AzorAhai said: Grey-Zone said: you just proved my words and i had perfect reasons to speculate. And victory? Like "me won anotha argument ova internetz?" So immature... Sure, if that's how you want to interpret it all, feel free to enjoy your victory. Congratulations. You just can't and won't admit you ran out of counter arguments and firstly ignored my discussion, then came with an even ridiculous reason to justify why you did it and now THIS to conclude it all. You know what? This works both ways: congratulations on "actually" winning. I know it's lonely when your last active conversation partner "on the other side" for this thread quits. You can't argue with yourself, I understand that. But you must accept that at some point people just move on from a discussion about fiction, escpacially if it dragged on as much as this particular topic. So see ya. You can have the last word if you want, though I won't reply. |
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Tatsuya said: I think as someone who had a problem with this arc in the LN and stayed with it, i should make my point about it. To me the problem is it seems out of character for ainz, who while true, is an outright villain in the LN, he's never done something both this simple, and pragmatically brutal himself, usually these are saved for the likes of demiurge or shalltear. While he is firmly a pragmatic villain, he always came across as a "do evil onto evil" kind of villain, not one who savors torment in itself, essentially ainz came off as a villain who did what needed to be done to get the job done, and nothing more or less, even in the darkest parts of the LN both before and after this, he never did anything that was so pointlessly brutal, cruel and inhuman as he is in this volume, especially since he was the one who brought them there in the first place. Basically what i'm saying is, the problem with the volume is that ainz even at his most evil, usually comes off as a pragmatic villain who only does what is needed for his goal, and doesn't let morality get in the way, it's essentially if darth vader became the joker for a volume, it's utterly jarring for most people. Personally i just think this was maruyama's attempt to point out that yes, ainz was the bad guy, even though as i said before, even at his worst he never reaches this level of pure chaotic evil again in the LN, and before anyone tries to say all of those come with some form of pragmatic villany to fulfill a goal, this comes off as needlessly cruel and even though it does lead to the dealing with the empire, this seemed to be the worst way to do it. Does it work? For some they dropped the ln so i guess so, but it doesn't really fit the character. Thanks, you articulated my thoughts on this episode very well. I haven't delved in the LNs, but your insight is useful. I also thought this episode was out of character for Ains as well. |
In sterquiliniis invenitur. |
0784212 said: Ainz does not commit evil out of pleasure while the residents of the new world does. I think that puts Ainz above them automatically.Tobestik said: The people Ainz killed were scum anyway, do you feel sorry for them? The sunlight scripture regularly massacred villages and demihumans. The residents of the holy kingdom as well. The workers were mercenaries who did dirty jobs. The kingdom is corrupt. The six arms trafficked drugs, prostitutes and blackmailed. The quagoa massacred the dwarfs. The frost dragons enslaved the quagoa. Ainz is a force of good. They are bad, Ainz is worse than all of them combined. |
Tobestik said: that's the same as saying soviets were a force of good since they "liberated" europe from nazis. Soviets did it to benefit themselves and simply changed one flag with another. You're just throwing in "they were all bad anyway", similar to how russians would go on saying "they were all nazis anyway" in order to make bad things look right and justified. Can't deny Ainz took care of bad guys too, but it's just simply wrong to say he does it for the greater good lol. So, if he massacres (thousands from capital were enslaved) it should be forgotten since they were necessary sacrifice for greater good as well? Do you understand how you're protecting the ideologies of the worst scum leaders on the earth?0784212 said: The people Ainz killed were scum anyway, do you feel sorry for them? The sunlight scripture regularly massacred villages and demihumans. The residents of the holy kingdom as well. The workers were mercenaries who did dirty jobs. The kingdom is corrupt. The six arms trafficked drugs, prostitutes and blackmailed. The quagoa massacred the dwarfs. The frost dragons enslaved the quagoa. Ainz is a force of good.That way of thinking is precisely why edgelords and pedos are the internet's punching bag. They're kindred spirit that don't realize how f*cked up they are and they wonder why people treats them like a potential criminal. I take back what I said about furries, they just want to yiff and be cute about it. |
AzorAhai said: Ainz is nothing like Hitler. There is no "superior race" in the sorcerer kingdom. Ainz is also nothing like Stalin. People don't starve in the sorcerer kingdom, they prosper. They get to enjoy safety and security and as long as they obey the law, they will have the best life anybody can have in the whole world.Tobestik said: that's the same as saying soviets were a force of good since they "liberated" europe from nazis. Soviets did it to benefit themselves and simply changed one flag with another. You're just throwing in "they were all bad anyway", similar to how russians would go on saying "they were all nazis anyway" in order to make bad things look right and justified. Can't deny Ainz took care of bad guys too, but it's just simply wrong to say he does it for the greater good lol. So, if he massacres (thousands from capital were enslaved) it should be forgotten since they were necessary sacrifice for greater good as well? Do you understand how you're protecting the ideologies of the worst scum leaders on the earth?The people Ainz killed were scum anyway, do you feel sorry for them? The sunlight scripture regularly massacred villages and demihumans. The residents of the holy kingdom as well. The workers were mercenaries who did dirty jobs. The kingdom is corrupt. The six arms trafficked drugs, prostitutes and blackmailed. The quagoa massacred the dwarfs. The frost dragons enslaved the quagoa. Ainz is a force of good. |
Tobestik said: AzorAhai said: Ainz is nothing like Hitler. There is no "superior race" in the sorcerer kingdom. Ainz is also nothing like Stalin. People don't starve in the sorcerer kingdom, they prosper. They get to enjoy safety and security and as long as they obey the law, they will have the best life anybody can have in the whole world.that's the same as saying soviets were a force of good since they "liberated" europe from nazis. Soviets did it to benefit themselves and simply changed one flag with another. You're just throwing in "they were all bad anyway", similar to how russians would go on saying "they were all nazis anyway" in order to make bad things look right and justified. Can't deny Ainz took care of bad guys too, but it's just simply wrong to say he does it for the greater good lol. So, if he massacres (thousands from capital were enslaved) it should be forgotten since they were necessary sacrifice for greater good as well? Do you understand how you're protecting the ideologies of the worst scum leaders on the earth? Yeah, Ainz has just been turning the world into a better place. If he manages to dominate the world in the end it will be a happy ending for everyone. @0784212 Stop spreading lies about Overlord. You should show the whole art. What you're doing is clearly dishonest. This is the official art in the latest volume: |
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
KRKodama said: h He has been banned lol.Tobestik said: Ainz is nothing like Hitler. There is no "superior race" in the sorcerer kingdom. Ainz is also nothing like Stalin. People don't starve in the sorcerer kingdom, they prosper. They get to enjoy safety and security and as long as they obey the law, they will have the best life anybody can have in the whole world. Yeah, Ainz has just been turning the world into a better place. If he manages to dominate the world in the end it will be a happy ending for everyone. @0784212 Stop spreading lies about Overlord. You should show the whole art. What you're doing is clearly dishonest. This is the official art in the latest volume: |
Don't know why I'm bothering to post on a 4 year old thread but whatever. I think calling him an antihero isn't quite accurate, typically antiheros have righteous goals but due evil thigs to accomplish them, so he's really more of just a villain, or anti-villain I think. But either way, I personally don't have problem with the fact that he's an evil character, it's more so the fact that he was a normal ass human business man not too long before the events of the episode yet he seems to have zero problem with completely abandoning his humanity. He clearly has emotions as he seems to care deeply about his past comrades (who were also normal ass humans just like he was) and his NPCs that he created, yet he seems to have no concern for any friends or family he had in the real world, which just doesn't make sense to me. Also I think its kinda silly how mad he gets over the thieves lying about his comrades when all they did was play a videogame together, none of them died, they just got bored of the game and lived their normal lives. He acts like they were all war buddies or some shit. |
Fruit_PunchApr 2, 2022 1:08 PM
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| Weird question. It was a display of the power of Nazarick. I wish they would have shown more of the actual characters doing stuff instead of just skeletons with magic equipment though. I had the same questions that sparked this post about the first half of the second season to be fair. There Ains went out of his way to attack a small innocent tribe in his area for absolutely no reason other than they wanted to know of lizardmen make good zombies. And if it was just a village of nameless lizardmen it wouldn't have mattered. But the creator decided to add a few lizardmen with personalities into the story and that made it so much more "evil". At least in a storytelling sense. Compared to that the stuff in ep 7 and 8 was actually justified. RAIDERS came for his tomb and wanted to enrich themself. He even asked beforehand to find out about their motives. Doesn't really matter what their lives were like or who paid them to do it. They wanted to go there and steal his stuff. It sucks for the girl that just needed money to escape her family and protect her sister but it was the decision of every single "adventurer" there to go and loot an unknown tomb. Might as well call them grave robbers because that's what they were at that point. |
| I don't know why I even bother to answer such an old post, but to me it's pretty clear that those who truly love this show are clearly incells or deeply messed up people anyways. I don't think that's surprising though? The anime community always sucked. You always saw plenty of incells in here defending the most barbaric stuff, so it doesn't really come as a surprise that people would like and defend this stuff. I saw some pretty elaborate arguments over there. Can't say I agree with them, though they are not completely wrong with their literary theory backing (not completely right though). Still, these sort of people have always been there. To me, I still don't get it how someone is able to like Code Geass, but it continues to be one of the most popular shows ever. It's the same issue to me. The problem lies with the incells in here that see in anonymity a way to express their deturped desires. |
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