| I think Madness is a more suitable and acceptable term for crazy anime. The renaming would also make it understandable by non-native english speakers - all the other genres are easily understood by everyone, but dementia is a complicated word. Moreover it refers to an illness that isn't as bizarre as the anime tagged with Dementia. Madhouse also uses the word Mad, with works that reflect that, so I don't see a problem with renaming the tag. The Dementia genre records the journey of a mindset into accepting a warped reality, if I'm correct. Insanity, Human Decline, Madness are options in my head, and all seem better than Dementia. (Made a new thread since searches didn't show anything about renaming the tag.) |
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| don't worry once the political correctness takes over it will have to be renamed since as you said dementia does refer to disorders that many people unfortunately must live with. i don't know what term they will use but hopefully not another term that totally misrepresents a condition. i'm sure the origin of mal's use of dementia stems from the noun form of its adjective demented which means "driven to behave irrationally due to anger, distress, or excitement." which is what they are really trying to mean, however this is an informal definition. i'm sure they do not try to offend persons affected or related to dementia and will resolve the issue one day |
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| Indeed, Madness would be a much better term than Dementia. Not only it would be more semantically correct, but it would also make it a lot easier for people to identify and comprehend what the anime with the tag is about. |
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
| I mean it's not like MAL coined the term, using "dementia" as a genre is very common for basically everywhere else. I could honestly care less about how it is described though, I think dementia helps describe mind fucking series. |
| I actually looked at an anime tagged as Dementia when I hadn't known anything about it and actually thought it would involve dementia. So yeah, I support changing misleading genre titles. |
| I don't think madness or insanity work very well because those are just words referring to being mentally ill and don't really cover the topic either way. Honestly, a mindfuck is the best way to describe it, but that word involves swearing which 'might not be allowed'. Personally I'm also a little confused what separates psychological anime from dementia anime, aside from a certain level of twisting narrative and imagery |
nicethings said: as someone taking care of a mentally ill person, with some kind of depression to boot, I do care.as a mentally ill person i dont give a sweet jesus fuck whatever you call it |
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| @Phraze It could be changed or not, there are bigger issues with MAL tags, IMO, but just like all other issues with the tags MAL doesn't seems to care about, I think they also won't do anything with this one either... at least, probably not anytime soon. Maaybe in a few decades or centuries. (I'm optimistic) |
Sora_92 said: @Phraze It could be changed or not, there are bigger issues with MAL tags, IMO, but just like all other issues with the tags MAL doesn't seems to care about, I think they also won't do anything with this one either... at least, probably not anytime soon. Maaybe in a few decades or centuries. (I'm optimistic) Not sure what to add, but I don't mind waiting for MAL to make changes. I don't think the other tags have issues, except maybe being missing from some obscure entries. |
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Phraze said: Not sure what to add, but I don't mind waiting for MAL to make changes. I don't think the other tags have issues, except maybe being missing from some obscure entries. The biggest issue with tags is that there are tags missing from the database, IMO. like noted several times in suggestions, like there's no Mahou Shoujo tag, no Isekai tag, no Gender Bender tag for anime (and it's generally not very useful for manga anyway, because there are lots of very different stuff swept under it, so it doesn't helps much when looking for something more specific...) and several other stuff I guess. But that's somewhat off topic maybe. point being, as far as I know, there were no changes on the tag system since the start. even if there are issues, even if they're pointed out by member again and again, it stays the same. broken and outdated... and not perticularly useful... |
Sora_92 said: Phraze said: Not sure what to add, but I don't mind waiting for MAL to make changes. I don't think the other tags have issues, except maybe being missing from some obscure entries. The biggest issue with tags is that there are tags missing from the database, IMO. like noted several times in suggestions, like there's no Mahou Shoujo tag, no Isekai tag, no Gender Bender tag for anime (and it's generally not very useful for manga anyway, because there are lots of very different stuff swept under it, so it doesn't helps much when looking for something more specific...) and several other stuff I guess. But that's somewhat off topic maybe. point being, as far as I know, there were no changes on the tag system since the start. even if there are issues, even if they're pointed out by member again and again, it stays the same. broken and outdated... and not perticularly useful... They sound like anime-specific genres. MAL should differentiate those special genres from regular genres then, since those available at the moment are the basic genres for all mediums of entertainment (except maybe dementia). |
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Phraze said: They sound like anime-specific genres. MAL should differentiate those special genres from regular genres then, since those available at the moment are the basic genres for all mediums of entertainment (except maybe dementia). No, they're not, there are Yuri and Yaoi too (and "shoujo ai" and "shounen ai" too) and lots of stuff that are more like tags than genres. like vampires, demons and whatnot. They could make a difference between genres (like comedy, slice of life, action, etc.) and tags (vampires, demons, etc.) alternatively even demograpics (shounen, shoujo, seinen, josei, kids (kodomo)). I don't think differentiating between anime specific and basic all medium tags/genres is necessary, since it's an anime/manga only site anyway. |
Sora_92 said: Phraze said: They sound like anime-specific genres. MAL should differentiate those special genres from regular genres then, since those available at the moment are the basic genres for all mediums of entertainment (except maybe dementia). No, they're not, there are Yuri and Yaoi too (and "shoujo ai" and "shounen ai" too) and lots of stuff that are more like tags than genres. like vampires, demons and whatnot. They could make a difference between genres (like comedy, slice of life, action, etc.) and tags (vampires, demons, etc.) alternatively even demograpics (shounen, shoujo, seinen, josei, kids (kodomo)). I don't think differentiating between anime specific and basic all medium tags/genres is necessary, since it's an anime/manga only site anyway. Oh, forgot those. Ecchi and hentai is also very anime-only. Renaming a tag might cause an uproar about all those issues... Though, I feel that renaming this tag is more necessary than revamping the tag list. Dementia is a medical term and might come off as "otaku are insensitive people". Improving the tag system should happen, but mislabeled tags should be priority. If renaming could potentially stir up more demands with the tag system, then it would be better to just remove Dementia from the database. dwmytybi said: Instead of madness, I'd rather coin the term "denpa" instead. Denpa: https://vndb.org/g960 From what I've seen, MAL's tags are in english and follow standard genre rules, with significant tags for sensitive content (like hentai) or basic demographics. But maybe anime of this tag has sensitive content enough to warrant a tag.. so maybe it could work. |
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Phraze said: Oh, forgot those. Ecchi and hentai is also very anime-only. Renaming a tag might cause an uproar about all those issues... Though, I feel that renaming this tag is more necessary than revamping the tag list. Dementia is a medical term and might come off as "otaku are insensitive people". Improving the tag system should happen, but mislabeled tags should be priority. If renaming could potentially stir up more demands with the tag system, then it would be better to just remove Dementia from the database. I get what you are saying, but the first problem is that MAL don't seems to care about its outdated and broken tags at all. I get that repairing them and adding new ones would be a huge work, but the more they wait, the more time it will take (and the more outdated it will be) However, I don't know about removing tags because having them this way might cause some people to feel bad. Maybe it's a bit like when some complained about hitler being in the database. If there are things in the database that have him as author, then he ought to be there, because it's a database. without any political meaning or anything. it's a different question some kids think it's cool or funny and put him on favorites list, but they have the freedom to do so, so whatever. Or a similar issue might be the thing with "shoujo ai" & "shounen ai" tags. As for one, one could say, they're basically the same as Yuri & Yaoi, so it's redundant to have 4 tags for 2 things. But some would say "but "shoujo/shounen ai" is tamer". While if you look at the border of the genres/tags closer, it's kind of blurry, what would be considered "tamer"? is it whether they have sex? but there are cases where they do offscreen for example? or there are lots of tame chapters and just one where they do? it could be difficult to decide. But even before that, what I read, in Japan, "shoujo ai" and "shounen ai" are synonyms for pedophilia, and aren't used in the way they're used in the west (that is, where it's used to mark "tamer" Yuri & Yaoi), kinda funny that it's that western took two Japanese words and put them together, but then in Japanese it actually not means what they think it means. Japanese on the other hand use GL and BL that are, well, English XD - or generally just use Yuri & Yaoi (regardless how "tame" it is or not.) Renaming is questionable. From a viewpoint, this is not good. It could be renamed to GL & BL for example. but... lots of other sites use "shoujo ai" & "shounen ai" too, so then it would be more confusing? and, I might think it's redundant to have 4 tags for 2 things, but there are likely people who use all of them to help finding what they want. Do they want something tamer or less tamer? They have these to help them finding what they want. So, even with the issues with it, it's probably justified they are there and look like that, and no tags should be removed, if there are people who use them. Dementia might be different in some things, but I also would say, don't remove tags. every tag the database have is useful and helpful in finding what you're looking for. - it's a different question MAL's database is so broken, probably not many people (me neither) use it for finding stuff, but use other sites for that. And, another thing when it comes to renaming, then... it gets into everyone says different names they think would fit it the best, they can't agree and then nothing changes again... (though first, it's MAL that doesn't cares about its tags are broken and outdated at all, to begin with) Maybe, you could try to work around the issue of what the new name should be with a poll or something, and just use whatever got the most votes, but even then, it's MAL who can change it, and they not seems to care... |
Claptrap said: I don't think madness or insanity work very well because those are just words referring to being mentally ill and don't really cover the topic either way. Honestly, a mindfuck is the best way to describe it, but that word involves swearing which 'might not be allowed'. Personally I'm also a little confused what separates psychological anime from dementia anime, aside from a certain level of twisting narrative and imagery I also wonder what seperates the psychological and dementia genres. Figured that dementia is more extreme, like somewhere between psychological and horror. The dementia tag could probably be discarded and anime integrated in to those but it is useful for people like myself that love the genre as it makes for quick access to the most disturbing anime. I'd suggest disturbia instead but it's not an actual word. I feel the problem lies in people not understanding what dementia means other than in relation to the illness. Unfortunately there seems to be no accurate synonyms. @Phraze has a point that it does confuse people. Deranged is my closest stab *pun intended* |
| @SaturnSkye Yes, the point I wanted to bring up is how insensitive it could sound. Vocabulary is constantly being improvised, so I doubt it'll be the end of the world if we omit controversial tags until they're resolved. Or, find a solution ourselves. Dementia has been adopted from the dictionary to describe a medical condition but Madness is not... Why fight over an adopted term when there's an alternative? And, perhaps, the misunderstanding is unnecessary for the community. |
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| In regards to what Psychological is.. I think MAL's definition hints at "human chess", or factional play. Dementia lacks a narrative or goal, "whatever happens happen" sort of thing. |
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| @Phraze I mean, the thing is, Madness is just as offensive as Dementia is, so if you're looking to change the tag on those grounds it doesn't fit. Madness and insanity are just generally words used when you describe caricatures of mentally ill people @SaturnSkye Disturbia is a word I could get behind tbqh It's not really a word that's 'real' persay, but it's also like... the problem with the Dementia genre on here is it's not really adjacent to any genre, it's kind of a genre exclusive to this site. So it seems fine to make up a word that 'sounds about right' |
ClaptrapNov 17, 2018 10:19 PM
| Wait, dementia didn't mean memory loss? I always thought it was that common plot trope where MC has forgotten something about their past. So yeah, calling it 'dementia' is very, very, misleading. I would support changing its name into something else. Pretty much anything that's been suggested in this thread is a better name for it. |
Claptrap said: @Phraze I mean, the thing is, Madness is just as offensive as Dementia is, so if you're looking to change the tag on those grounds it doesn't fit. Madness and insanity are just generally words used when you describe caricatures of mentally ill people I disagree that "mad" and "insane" are ways to describe mental patients....it refers to anyone unreasonable in general. Mental illness is a stigma that goes along with unreasonable people, but that's not always the case. And I guess Disturbia can be a thing. It's used to describe some music genres, right? I saw that term before. |
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| can you imagine neon genesis evangelion marked as MADNESS?! you'd just go and search for MADNESS animes that's MADNESS |
| Dementia anime are usually rather weird. I wouldn't mind if they were called just that. Weird. |
 I'm watching anime since 2012. I also play games, sometimes. Don't bother me if you want to 'become friends' or things like that. It's tiresome. I know you just want to collect some meaningless numbers. Thought: How many people sparked H. Charlotta just for blue pot? |
| not a bad choice of vocab but id rather rename it into melancholy either way i don't think dementia feels 'right' to describe the anime that are tagged with it and generally dementia anime are quite sad and weird at the same time so i think melancholy could be an alternative |
PsychoticDave said: I actually looked at an anime tagged as Dementia when I hadn't known anything about it and actually thought it would involve dementia. So yeah, I support changing misleading genre titles. Same here, I thought of it that way too way back when I was new to MAL. |
| @Phraze Phraze said: I disagree that "mad" and "insane" are ways to describe mental patients....it refers to anyone unreasonable in general. Mental illness is a stigma that goes along with unreasonable people, but that's not always the case. And I guess Disturbia can be a thing. It's used to describe some music genres, right? I saw that term before. It refers to anyone unreasonable because it's used to refer to people with mental health issues. 'You are unreasonable, therefore you must be insane'. Insanity and madness both quite literally mean 'mentally ill'. I feel if you're concerned about the term Dementia being unfavourable to people with dementia, labelling it Madness or Insanity just shifts it to using a word that's used to describe all mentally ill people. But I don't think the term works for other reasons too. It's too vague and you can't tell what it really means. I like Disturbia, but I feel there must be some other term we could use as well... Disturbia is a made up word, but I think covers the themes of such works usually being 'disturbed' but in a profound way. Something like? I think the concrete definition we're looking for is something like... Surrealism? or, if more casual, a mindscrew? |
| Dementia in Portuguese, my native language, is "demência". Pretty easy to understand. Though I´m really used to English, as I can read and hear stuff as I do in Portuguese. I don´t care about politically correct when it comes to this. And I speak as someone with mental issues since forever. Plus, you know when people say "This is autism" as a joke? I also don´t care, since I also suffer with damn Asperger. This word sounds way cooler than "madness", too. |
| "Could you not talk with me? I'm busy breathing." |
Phraze said: @SaturnSkye Yes, the point I wanted to bring up is how insensitive it could sound. Vocabulary is constantly being improvised, so I doubt it'll be the end of the world if we omit controversial tags until they're resolved. Or, find a solution ourselves. Dementia has been adopted from the dictionary to describe a medical condition but Madness is not... Why fight over an adopted term when there's an alternative? And, perhaps, the misunderstanding is unnecessary for the community. Oh, I missed your point that it could be insensitive to some. Like @Grape_Panta and many others, I have mental health challenges too but I don't find the word insulting at all. If one is offended by that term they should probably stay right away from the genre *nervous laugh*. The tag doesn't have to be viewed as describing a mentally ill character, in my eyes it just means a very twisted situation in which the characters find themselves in. I absolutely agree with your point that the term is confusing for the community. When I first joined MAL I didn't know what it meant. Thank you for creating this topic, it's been very interesting. My question is, would MAL actually change it? Do the mods have the ability to do that? Because after what happened recently and how long it took to fix, it seems that the secretive outside organisation who owns MAL don't really give a damn. mayoinnaisu said: not a bad choice of vocab but id rather rename it into melancholy and generally dementia anime are quite sad and weird at the same time so i think melancholy could be an alternative Have to disagree with this. Melancholy has a completely different meaning in my opinion. Haibane Renmei for example is exactly what I'd describe as melancholy; sad but thought provoking, often with a slow pace. That's very different to dementia which describes something chaotic or twisted. Chaos and melancholy are related yet kind of opposites in a similar way to sadness versus anger. Claptrap said: I like Disturbia, but I feel there must be some other term we could use as well... Disturbia is a made up word, but I think covers the themes of such works usually being 'disturbed' but in a profound way. Something like? I think the concrete definition we're looking for is something like... Surrealism? or, if more casual, a mindscrew? I pretty much agree with your thoughts. I guess if MAL didn't want to opt for mindscrew and insisted on using a word from the dictionary they could just use disturbed. I still think they could do away with the tag since most dementia anime fall somewhere between psychological and horror and I bet the majority of them have both those tags as well. What brought me to this thread was I was actually looking for the dementia tag on my mobile and couldn't find it, thought they had removed it but I'd just overlooked it. changelog said: I think the problem with changing it something like "Madness" or "Insanity" is that it would become much too vague. Both words could refer to a lot of circumstances, whether it be about a mental breakdown (as it is intended to be), or flying penguins invading Australia with unborn chicken embryos as their primary ammunition. As an Australian, thank you for the laugh. I'd watch that! Sounds better than the anime adaption of Tokyo Fish Attack. |
Bles-Nov 19, 2018 7:17 AM
SaturnSkye said: Do the mods have the ability to do that? Because after what happened recently and how long it took to fix, it seems that the secretive outside organisation who owns MAL don't really give a damn. Short answer is no. They are just using tool they have available to expand the database, correct the entries if needed, control forums / reviews and such. They can't add new features nor they can change anything that already exists. |
HakaminahNov 20, 2018 1:10 AM
I'm watching anime since 2012. I also play games, sometimes. Don't bother me if you want to 'become friends' or things like that. It's tiresome. I know you just want to collect some meaningless numbers. Thought: How many people sparked H. Charlotta just for blue pot? |
| What bugs me about this is that there is a genre tag already called Psychological for stuff that falls in the category of intended mind-fuckery. To cover the other side of anime that usually get the "Dementia" tag, I dunno, what about Experimental? I doubt Yoji Kuri or Atsushi Wada intend to make us feel uneasy with their works. They have a minimalistic style and they work experimenting on visual and narrative. MAL going the "dementia" route with their work is almost derogatory. |
| > but dementia is a complicated word SAO is isekai. Not that complicated to understand. Nowadays we have Google/Wiki unlike 19th century Europe/NA. |
_Ako_ said: > but dementia is a complicated word SAO is isekai. Not that complicated to understand. Nowadays we have Google/Wiki unlike 19th century Europe/NA. damn, i never know that i am in an isekai when i play skyrim VR! jal90 said: What bugs me about this is that there is a genre tag already called Psychological for stuff that falls in the category of intended mind-fuckery. To cover the other side of anime that usually get the "Dementia" tag, I dunno, what about Experimental? I doubt Yoji Kuri or Atsushi Wada intend to make us feel uneasy with their works. They have a minimalistic style and they work experimenting on visual and narrative. MAL going the "dementia" route with their work is almost derogatory. jal90 said: What bugs me about this is that there is a genre tag already called Psychological for stuff that falls in the category of intended mind-fuckery. To cover the other side of anime that usually get the "Dementia" tag, I dunno, what about Experimental? I doubt Yoji Kuri or Atsushi Wada intend to make us feel uneasy with their works. They have a minimalistic style and they work experimenting on visual and narrative. MAL going the "dementia" route with their work is almost derogatory. just a theory but Psychological = mind/mental topics < Dementia = distorted reality < |
Phantomnocomics said: _Ako_ said: > but dementia is a complicated word SAO is isekai. Not that complicated to understand. Nowadays we have Google/Wiki unlike 19th century Europe/NA. damn, i never know that i am in an isekai when i play skyrim VR! It is not isekai because you have no harem. |
funny you say that!, because i just installed a mod where 5 elfs are my companions! isekai!, here i go! |
Phantomnocomics said: funny you say that!, because i just installed a mod where 5 elfs are my companions! isekai!, here i go! Mhhh... now you're talking... Make sure Tsundere wins. |
jal90 said: What bugs me about this is that there is a genre tag already called Psychological for stuff that falls in the category of intended mind-fuckery. To cover the other side of anime that usually get the "Dementia" tag, I dunno, what about Experimental? I doubt Yoji Kuri or Atsushi Wada intend to make us feel uneasy with their works. They have a minimalistic style and they work experimenting on visual and narrative. MAL going the "dementia" route with their work is almost derogatory. Experimental is actually a tag that fits pretty well for the works under this tag |
Grape_Panta said: Dementia in Portuguese, my native language, is "demência". Pretty easy to understand. Though I´m really used to English, as I can read and hear stuff as I do in Portuguese. I don´t care about politically correct when it comes to this. And I speak as someone with mental issues since forever. Plus, you know when people say "This is autism" as a joke? I also don´t care, since I also suffer with damn Asperger. This word sounds way cooler than "madness", too. It's not about who feels what here, it's about how bad an impression it leaves on the anime community. Dementia as an actual genre is... an anime-only thing. I can accept anime-only tags like Ecchi or Hentai, but not Dementia. When I looked it up, it pointed only to anime. SaturnSkye said: Phraze said: @SaturnSkye Yes, the point I wanted to bring up is how insensitive it could sound. Vocabulary is constantly being improvised, so I doubt it'll be the end of the world if we omit controversial tags until they're resolved. Or, find a solution ourselves. Dementia has been adopted from the dictionary to describe a medical condition but Madness is not... Why fight over an adopted term when there's an alternative? And, perhaps, the misunderstanding is unnecessary for the community. Oh, I missed your point that it could be insensitive to some. Like @Grape_Panta and many others, I have mental health challenges too but I don't find the word insulting at all. If one is offended by that term they should probably stay right away from the genre *nervous laugh*. The tag doesn't have to be viewed as describing a mentally ill character, in my eyes it just means a very twisted situation in which the characters find themselves in. I absolutely agree with your point that the term is confusing for the community. When I first joined MAL I didn't know what it meant. Thank you for creating this topic, it's been very interesting. My question is, would MAL actually change it? Do the mods have the ability to do that? Because after what happened recently and how long it took to fix, it seems that the secretive outside organisation who owns MAL don't really give a damn. Glad you found this topic informative. Yeah, the point I wanted to make was that it was insensitive in general, and might come off as offensive to anyone curious about anime. True though.. No telling if the mods will do something about this. Well, at least it's out there. |
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| I think for the shorts they should have the genre of "experimental" or "arthouse" so that people know not to expect any kind of important story from them but rather just some shitty art that doesn't make any sense. |
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| Well, it seems the tag has gone completely. Despite the bad connotation it was a tag I used a lot, now I dont know how to look for this kind of anime, im kinda lost. |
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McFreezy said: rubiadesiempre said: Well, it seems the tag has gone completely. Despite the bad connotation it was a tag I used a lot, now I dont know how to look for this kind of anime, im kinda lost. It's still there, just renamed to "Avant Garde". Thank you! I didn't saw the connection in there, I was hoping something more like "insanity" or "madness", but Im glad they didn't just remove it altogether. |
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