Noboru said: @Sad + @myllaut : the fact that he was able to point out the education system as to what it actually is makes him a lot better educated than most people here. Too few people have heard of the Prussian education system, despite it being THE schooling system in the West I WAS KIDDING THANK YOU BROTHER xD Though, I totally get him and he's totally right, I mean I've never studyied and got decent grades while others were working their asses of for slightly better grades hahaha, fuck I like sucking my own cock |
| we do a little bit of headbanging here |
myllaut said: I've read you the first time and not for what xPI WAS KIDDING THANK YOU BROTHER xD Though, I totally get him and he's totally right, I mean I've never studyied and got decent grades while others were working their asses of for slightly better grades hahaha, fuck I like sucking my own cock And I'm afraid to tell you this, but you do not seem to understand what he was writing at all. "I think asking someone how "educated" they are is meaningless, at any rate, since that often only tells you how proficient they are at following orders and repeating what they've been told; not how knowledgeable or intelligent they actually are." The education system is set the way that you are trimmed to memorize the correct answers and that you should follow your superiors. Actual critical thinking isn't supported at all. You're expected to take in pre-made "critical" voices to be "critical". More information: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1731393 |
| I'm in highschool and I have 0 goals. I just want to be a weeb I don't want to live my life doing something I hate/dread though, but it'll probably end up like that. They should give teens actual experience in fields they're interested in. The idea of being a Psychologist sounds interesting, but once you get there and reality hits, you might change your mind. |
| woah there |
Noboru said: myllaut said: I've read you the first time and not for what xPI WAS KIDDING THANK YOU BROTHER xD Though, I totally get him and he's totally right, I mean I've never studyied and got decent grades while others were working their asses of for slightly better grades hahaha, fuck I like sucking my own cock And I'm afraid to tell you this, but you do not seem to understand what he was writing at all. "I think asking someone how "educated" they are is meaningless, at any rate, since that often only tells you how proficient they are at following orders and repeating what they've been told; not how knowledgeable or intelligent they actually are." The education system is set the way that you are trimmed to memorize the correct answers and that you should follow your superiors. Actual critical thinking isn't supported at all. You're expected to take in pre-made "critical" voices to be "critical". More information: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1731393 Dude I already got it, it's just that in my case I was able to do fine without having to memorize stuff for hours and hours |
| we do a little bit of headbanging here |
myllaut said: No, you don't get it all. Maybe @SadMadoka can explain it better than me.Dude I already got it, it's just that in my case I was able to do fine without having to memorize stuff for hours and hours |
| Currently studying international law because the more developed and integrated the international system is the more is the necessity of international law in international legal regulation of international relation, and my goal is get an LL.M in Australia soon. |
''Enemies' gifts are no gifts and do no good.'' |
Noboru said: myllaut said: No, you don't get it all. Maybe @SadMadoka can explain it better than me.Dude I already got it, it's just that in my case I was able to do fine without having to memorize stuff for hours and hours I get it, the school system is shit because it rewards the guy that was most able to memorize a book not about the intelligence of producing a theory or some bullshit like this. But if I'm wrong then I'm probably in the category "dumb fuck people" |
| we do a little bit of headbanging here |
| Yeah, you forgot trade schools. I learned and gained more from my chef's course than anything from university. I have generally found it is better to be skilled than educated. Education is easier these days with a lot of information being online. If you're skilled at something, it means that you have spent time and energy learning and perfecting it. In essence. Many of your degrees are garbage. |
Current Events Thread Topics... Not even once. |
Wary_Wolf said: Yeah, you forgot trade schools. I learned and gained more from my chef's course than anything from university. I have generally found it is better to be skilled than educated. Education is easier these days with a lot of information being online. If you're skilled at something, it means that you have spent time and energy learning and perfecting it. In essence. Many of your degrees are garbage. Sorry about that. It's just that in Canada collage's are basically trade schools. |
Ehta said: I'm in highschool and I have 0 goals. I just want to be a weeb I don't want to live my life doing something I hate/dread though, but it'll probably end up like that. They should give teens actual experience in fields they're interested in. The idea of being a Psychologist sounds interesting, but once you get there and reality hits, you might change your mind. Don't be afraid of that. Having an education will still open up more career options. |
Tapertrain said: Sorry about that. It's just that in Canada college's are basically trade schools. Ok, but I gather you still differentiate between certificates of trade, bachelor degrees and masters. I guess it's all tertiary education though. Regardless, best of luck in getting into teaching. I originally wanted to do that, but found that I didn't have the passion for what I wanted to teach, so thought it better to explore other fields. |
Current Events Thread Topics... Not even once. |
Noboru said: If he's in the process of giving you an apple, the apple is still his.lol, do you really not know that zero plus one equals one? Then let me explain: when you have no apples and someone gives you one apple, how many apples do you have? |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
myllaut said: Congratulations, you finally got it! ^^I get it, the school system is shit because it rewards the guy that was most able to memorize a book not about the intelligence of producing a theory or some bullshit like this. katsucats said: I haven't used present continuous. If he's in the process of giving you an apple, the apple is still his. |
| Im still in highschool. I wish I could fast forward to college tho :( |
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Noboru said: myllaut said: Congratulations, you finally got it! ^^I get it, the school system is shit because it rewards the guy that was most able to memorize a book not about the intelligence of producing a theory or some bullshit like this. katsucats said: I haven't used present continuous. If he's in the process of giving you an apple, the apple is still his. You know I had it since the begining, I was just talking about how sad it was that I had to do nothing to graduate while others were working their asses of. And then the school talks about merits, they already realized that society isn't equal. |
| we do a little bit of headbanging here |
Noboru said: If you're going to take the word of a government conspiracy theorist at face value, you need education. You seem to one of those people who like to excuse education as a waste of time even though you've never participated in it, nor expended any serious, systematic effort to find out. Try passing any upper-division STEM course using only memorization. Let me tell you why that is impossible -- because the test questions have never been presented in class lectures. There are a lot of criticism I could make about the education system, but yours is most inane."I think asking someone how "educated" they are is meaningless, at any rate, since that often only tells you how proficient they are at following orders and repeating what they've been told; not how knowledgeable or intelligent they actually are." The education system is set the way that you are trimmed to memorize the correct answers and that you should follow your superiors. Actual critical thinking isn't supported at all. You're expected to take in pre-made "critical" voices to be "critical". More information: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1731393 |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| @myllaut: it didn't sound like you had it from the beginning, since the information came only in your third post. And what you say sounds all good, but it does not really follow with our conversation. @katsucats: your reply doesn't indicate that you have read the thread at all. Besides, I've never sad that education is "a waste of time", plus, it's a ridiculous accusation to say that I would have never participated in it. Yes, it's not only about memorization, but memorization takes a large part in it. Just because you cannot memorize the answers to test questions you have not seen does not mean you cannot memorize the textbook examples on how to solve all kinds of similar problems. That's like saying it would be useless to memorize how to calculate two plus four times seven because the question would be four times nine minus six. |
NoboruAug 25, 2018 3:30 PM
| I have two Master degrees in Japanese Mangoes and Pasta respectively and a Phd in shitposting. Also I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on MAL. |
<Insert clever quote> |
Noboru said: @katsucats: your reply doesn't indicate that you have read the thread at all. Besides, I've never sad that education is "a waste of time", plus, it's a ridiculous accusation to say that I would have never participated in it. Noboru said: My highest degree is a high school degree Noboru said: Maybe for your A-levels, but our tests do not come from the textbook.Yes, it's not only about memorization, but memorization takes a large part in it. Just because you cannot memorize the answers to test questions you have not seen does not mean you cannot memorize the textbook examples on how to solve all kinds of similar problems. Noboru said: At some point, this memorization crosses over into actual learning and understanding, which is what you're supposed to do. I'm glad you think shifting goal posts by stretching the definitions of words make good argument. However, most people do not use "memorization" to mean memorizing concepts in order to learn, but rote memorizing of problems and answers. Learning is impossible if any kind of memory retention is impossible. It's specious to attempt to cover more ground in this way.That's like saying it would be useless to memorize how to calculate two plus four times seven because the question would be four times nine minus six. What it's actually saying is that knowing what Percival's theorem is and memorizing the proof is only a first step to being able to recognize when to use it to simplify a convolution integral to solve the function of a control system. Or just memorizing how to find decision boundaries and SNR for a binary phase-shift key (BPSK) constellation is probably useless in a test that asks you to find an arbitrary quadrature amplitude modulation (k-QAM) constellation and its corresponding SNR. Or that you probably wouldn't be able to solve a floating triangle circuit used in power lines if all you did was memorize all the network transformations (e.g. Delta-Y) without a good understanding of how to manipulate a circuit to take advantage of symmetry. I could go on, but it doesn't matter, does it? What matters is that your idea of what education is like is fueled by conspiratorial tabloid article written by people desperate to justify their decision to work at Burger King. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
katsucats said: Noboru said: @katsucats: your reply doesn't indicate that you have read the thread at all. Besides, I've never sad that education is "a waste of time", plus, it's a ridiculous accusation to say that I would have never participated in it. Noboru said: My highest degree is a high school degree Noboru said: Maybe for your A-levels, but our tests do not come from the textbook.Yes, it's not only about memorization, but memorization takes a large part in it. Just because you cannot memorize the answers to test questions you have not seen does not mean you cannot memorize the textbook examples on how to solve all kinds of similar problems. Noboru said: At some point, this memorization crosses over into actual learning and understanding, which is what you're supposed to do. I'm glad you think shifting goal posts by stretching the definitions of words make good argument. However, most people do not use "memorization" to mean memorizing concepts in order to learn, but rote memorizing of problems and answers. Learning is impossible if any kind of memory retention is impossible. It's specious to attempt to cover more ground in this way.That's like saying it would be useless to memorize how to calculate two plus four times seven because the question would be four times nine minus six. What it's actually saying is that knowing what Percival's theorem is and memorizing the proof is only a first step to being able to recognize when to use it to simplify a convolution integral to solve the function of a control system. Or just memorizing how to find decision boundaries and SNR for a binary phase-shift key (BPSK) constellation is probably useless in a test that asks you to find an arbitrary quadrature amplitude modulation (k-QAM) constellation and its corresponding SNR. Or that you probably wouldn't be able to solve a floating triangle circuit used in power lines if all you did was memorize all the network transformations (e.g. Delta-Y) without a good understanding of how to manipulate a circuit to take advantage of symmetry. I could go on, but it doesn't matter, does it? What matters is that your idea of what education is like is fueled by conspiratorial tabloid article written by people desperate to justify their decision to work at Burger King. ya i never really understood this whole weird "schools are brainwashing plants reeeeee." conspiracy.. and this was coming from someone who completely skipped middle school and jumped right into high school and college. |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
katsucats said: The "textbook example" is just a metaphor for every paradigm or example par excellence learnt in school. Maybe for your A-levels, but our tests do not come from the textbook. However, most people do not use "memorization" to mean memorizing concepts in order to learn, but rote memorizing of problems and answers. Memorizing concepts is still memorization, regardless of whether "most people" use the word for that, too, or not.In all the cases you've mentioned, you can memorize the way of solving the problems in class, which is memorization through repetition. Obviously, you don't only memorize the formula, especially when you are allowed to look them up in more advanced classes, but also the concept behind the problem. The only thing that isn't "memorization" is when you have to recognize what type of problem it is and which of the memorized concepts you can use to solve it. This may include knowledge from other subjects as well. Once you have figured out what the problem is and which of your memorized concepts you need, all you have to do is to go according to the book or respectively: according to the class. |
NoboruAug 26, 2018 12:44 AM
Noboru said: There are two possibilities: You either learned the material, or you did not.katsucats said: The "textbook example" is just a metaphor for every paradigm or example par excellence learnt in school. Maybe for your A-levels, but our tests do not come from the textbook. However, most people do not use "memorization" to mean memorizing concepts in order to learn, but rote memorizing of problems and answers. Memorizing concepts is still memorization, regardless of whether "most people" use the word for that, too, or not.In all the cases you've mentioned, you can memorize the way of solving the problems in class, which is memorization through repetition. Obviously, you don't only memorize the formula, especially when you are allowed to look them up in more advanced classes, but also the concept behind the problem. The only thing that isn't "memorization" is when you have to recognize what type of problem it is and which of the memorized concepts you can use to solve it. This may include knowledge from other subjects as well. Once you have figured out what the problem is and which of your memorized concepts you need, all you have to do is to go according to the book or respectively: according to the class. 1. If you learned the material through memorization, then you've contradicted the premise of your previous post, and your link to the article that admonishes memorization in place of learning. By missing your own point, you lose an argument regardless of whether you "win", so you should think about that next time you drag discussions into pointlessness. 2. If you did not learn the material, but only memorized concepts and all their applicable permutations, then it takes a special, and perhaps autistic, kind of skill to memorize entire textbooks, even textbooks that were not used in class, and then to be able to instantly recall the relevant sections without experience. It's one thing to collect a library of information, it's another to be able to find exactly what you're looking for in a library without someone telling you where it is. But "wait!", I hear, "don't you just apply one relevant principle to each problem"? Like maybe in geometry you knew that if you had 2 sides and an angle, you applied a certain law, or in basic ass physics, you knew that if you're looking for acceleration, you draw the free body diagram of forces. But are you able to tell that you had to use trig substitution as opposed to u-substitution, completing the square, partial fractions, series expansion, Parceval's, Fourier transform, etc., just by memorizing the concepts without ever having worked through a problem? Obviously not. This is clearly way over your head and I'm wasting my time. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Noboru said: This is incorrect at higher levels of education and there are a great number of examples to refute your claim. Take advanced programming, for instance.katsucats said: The "textbook example" is just a metaphor for every paradigm or example par excellence learnt in school. Maybe for your A-levels, but our tests do not come from the textbook. However, most people do not use "memorization" to mean memorizing concepts in order to learn, but rote memorizing of problems and answers. Memorizing concepts is still memorization, regardless of whether "most people" use the word for that, too, or not.In all the cases you've mentioned, you can memorize the way of solving the problems in class, which is memorization through repetition. Obviously, you don't only memorize the formula, especially when you are allowed to look them up in more advanced classes, but also the concept behind the problem. The only thing that isn't "memorization" is when you have to recognize what type of problem it is and which of the memorized concepts you can use to solve it. This may include knowledge from other subjects as well. Once you have figured out what the problem is and which of your memorized concepts you need, all you have to do is to go according to the book or respectively: according to the class. You might know what every single command means and does, but that doesn't mean that you will be able to solve every programming challenge you'll ever come across, because said challenges require you to combine commands in novel ways that you can't read about in a textbook, since they are so specific. The same applies to every STEM subject past a certain level. If you don't understand the intricacies of the system you're working with, you will get crushed by problems beyond a certain threshold of complexity. |
| "my life at this state could be transposed into a pretty massive biography" - Cneq, "the guy who was literally using BTC in 2012 to make deals in the first main instance of a digital itemized economy forming naturally in all human history (also the precursor of NFTs) and who had 20k+ total trades.", 23 years old MAL's most prolific antivaxxer, Noboru. |
katsucats said: I could say similar things about you and the wunderkind above, who seem to be good at memorizing stuff to solve given problems the prescribed way, but do not question the concept behind.This is clearly way over your head and I'm wasting my time. When you're in class, have some paradigm on how to solve a certain type of problem and the teacher/professor comes and says: "This could/will be relevant for the test", then all you're doing is to pay attention, take notes and/or mark the example par excellence, so you can repeat the whole procedure. We can easily find out how educated you are with the following question: "What makes the apple fall?" @Railey2: I'm afraid to say, but programming is also mostly an act of memorization and repetition. To quote myself again: The only thing that isn't "memorization" is when you have to recognize what type of problem it is and which of the memorized concepts you can use to solve it. This may include knowledge from other subjects as well. Once you have figured out what the problem is and which of your memorized concepts you need, all you have to do is to go according to the book or respectively: according to the class. A problem in programming class usually just contains multiple problems you have already dealt with in class.Too few people understand that the education system is only about solving problems with the prescribed methods and not about questioning the concepts and to think beyond what stored information they need and where to look up. |
NoboruAug 26, 2018 1:28 AM
Noboru said: That paradigm is useless and you are extrapolating your experience of high school to all levels, which is silly. It's like someone saying he can add small numbers in his head, so it should work for all math. I see you're only interested in ignoring concrete examples so you could stick to your prescribed ideology. We know how (un)educated you are and you have no business judging either of us. The small pleasure that you get from attention whoring on MAL must be insignificant compared to the crushing hole in your heart from lying to yourself to maintain the persona of an intellectual and save face. Now if you'll excuse me, I have better things to do like counting dust in the air.katsucats said: I could say similar things about you and the wunderkind above, who seem to be good at memorizing stuff to solve given problems the prescribed way, but do not question the concept behind.This is clearly way over your head and I'm wasting my time. When you're in class, have some paradigm on how to solve a certain type of problem and the teacher/professor comes and says: "This could/will be relevant for the test", then all you're doing is to pay attention, take notes and/or mark the example par excellence, so you can repeat the whole procedure. We can easily find out how educated you are with the following question: "What makes the apple fall?" |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
katsucats said: Okay, bye and have fun. Do as you wish.Now if you'll excuse me, I have better things to do like counting dust in the air. |
Noboru said: This is true for a highschool-level education, and to an extent for the first bachelor semesters. @Railey2: I'm afraid to say, but programming is also mostly an act of memorization and repetition. To quote myself again: The only thing that isn't "memorization" is when you have to recognize what type of problem it is and which of the memorized concepts you can use to solve it. This may include knowledge from other subjects as well. Once you have figured out what the problem is and which of your memorized concepts you need, all you have to do is to go according to the book or respectively: according to the class. A problem in programming class usually just contains multiple problems you have already dealt with in class.I don't see how anyone could finish a masters-level education in a STEM subject and hold the same view that you do. Simple memorization won't work anymore unless you're a god tier savant, which of course you aren't. As katsu said, this sounds an awful lot like you're extrapolating your highschool experience. |
| "my life at this state could be transposed into a pretty massive biography" - Cneq, "the guy who was literally using BTC in 2012 to make deals in the first main instance of a digital itemized economy forming naturally in all human history (also the precursor of NFTs) and who had 20k+ total trades.", 23 years old MAL's most prolific antivaxxer, Noboru. |
Railey2 said: It might be that you have to do more thinking with what you have to use and how to get the needed information instead of being told everything, but the principle is similar.I don't see how anyone could finish a masters-level education in a STEM subject and hold the same view that you do. Simple memorization won't work anymore unless you're a god tier savant, which of course you aren't. @KeylonLongfist: it seems like manners weren't part of your education system and of that of others. Otherwise, you wouldn't talk about others if you think that something is wrong with them, but rather with them, provided you can reach them. There are other places in which you can converse about my humble self: https://myanimelist.net/mymessages.php?go=send&toname=Noboru https://myanimelist.net/profile/Noboru These are just two examples. There are more that can be easily found out or requested. |
| I have a BSc in psychological. I'm gonna have to go back to get a masters but first I want to spend a year in a newspaper internship. I mean, I like psychology and all but really it was only as useful to me in so far as it compliments my writing. Glad i did it though, studying psychology and going full on with it gives you quite the perception of reality. Though whether it's critical or caustic has yet to be demonstrated |
| @Noboru: I have no idea why you're so stubborn, you have multiple people here that either pursued or completed higher education telling you that it doesn't work the way you think it does, and yet you keep saying "no, in high semester STEM tests, they only ask you to solve slightly different versions of problems that you've solved before". Ask anyone, ANYONE who studies any sort of engineering and they'll tell you that you couldn't be more wrong. Memorization doesn't get you a degree. You have to think, adapt, permutate and improvise on top of the copious amounts of memorization of both facts and methods, or you'll get absolutely trashed by your next set of exams. Of course memorization is a part of getting a degree, why wouldn't it be, but if you think that that's all there is to it, you really do have a mindset that's stuck in highschool. You realize that for some exams you pass with a raw score of 30%, and yet more than half of the people who take the exam fail? That's standard procedure for STEM subjects. How do you reconcile this with your claim that "all the problems were dealt with in class, and the exams are a simple matter of regurgitation"? You can't, because your claim is factually incorrect! Maybe katsu was right and this is a confidence thing for you. At this point I'm not sure if there is any amount of evidence which you could be presented with that would change your mind on this subject. |
| "my life at this state could be transposed into a pretty massive biography" - Cneq, "the guy who was literally using BTC in 2012 to make deals in the first main instance of a digital itemized economy forming naturally in all human history (also the precursor of NFTs) and who had 20k+ total trades.", 23 years old MAL's most prolific antivaxxer, Noboru. |
Railey2 said: I've already asked my mother who had studied Mechanical Engineering and had lots of mathematics. The strategy is always the same: you get some basic paradigm, then you derive the principle, then you switch to more complicated paradigms, then you derive the principle behind solving those problems, and so on, and so forth. Ask anyone, ANYONE who studies any sort of engineering and they'll tell you that you couldn't be more wrong. Memorization doesn't get you a degree. You have to think, adapt, permutate and improvise on top of the copious amounts of memorization of both facts and methods, or you'll get absolutely trashed by your next set of exams. You realize that for some exams you pass with a raw score of 30%, and yet more than half of the people who take the exam fail? That's standard procedure for STEM subjects. You realize that "learning" is mostly a process of being diligent and repeating whatever could be relevant for solving possible problems with regards to a specific subject? If people fail, then it's because they weren't diligent enough and/or couldn't bring themselves to do more work on their own instead of being spoon-fed everything. |
| highschool grad working a dead-end job cause i'm too poor and stupid to get into any decent college wooohooo |
  Calm me and let me taste the salt you breathed while you were underneath I am the one who haunts your dreams of mountains sunk below the sea I spoke the words but never gave a thought to what they all could mean last.fm |
Noboru said: Truly spoken like someone who has never had anything to do with STEM. You realize that "learning" is mostly a process of being diligent and repeating whatever could be relevant for solving possible problems with regards to a specific subject? If people fail, then it's because they weren't diligent enough and/or couldn't bring themselves to do more work on their own instead of being spoon-fed everything. This really is pointless. |
| "my life at this state could be transposed into a pretty massive biography" - Cneq, "the guy who was literally using BTC in 2012 to make deals in the first main instance of a digital itemized economy forming naturally in all human history (also the precursor of NFTs) and who had 20k+ total trades.", 23 years old MAL's most prolific antivaxxer, Noboru. |
Railey2 said: A late realization is better than none.This really is pointless. |
| Starting my 2nd year of uni (computer science) next month and honestly I love everything about it. I am not really over-ambitious or anything like that but I would really like to earn a PhD in the future |
| Graduated high school with a 3.1 GPA, decided college wasn't for me so I went to welding school. Now I make 40k/yr doing what I love. |
| “Loddfafnir, listen to my counsel: You will fare well if you follow it, It will help you much if you heed it. If aware that another is wicked, say so: Make no truce or treaty with foes.” - Havamal 127 |
| For me college bachelors of biology |
 |
| Just recently started my first year at university. |
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