86--EIGHTY-SIX (light novel)
86 Volume 2 Discussion
| THIS IS A NOVEL ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS VOLUME. ---------------------------------------- As usual, very confusing as to what is going on and at what time exactly we are, but thats fine, its still great, and itll make more sense as we go on! but jesus this volume was great, started off lightly, with we seeing how they arrived at the Federation and how they lived there, and at the end we have a huge war where the legions attacked all countries with massive armies, and at the end we end with a cliffhanger? i think it is, now i cant wait for the next volume to see how this ends and the reunion of Shin and Lena! |
| Personally I disliked this volume. It's particularly disappointing after how great the first volume was. Part of it is that it's hard to get into the novel when you already know how it ends, as we do from Volume 1. I don't particularly care about the new characters introduced, especially Fredericka whom I believe is a waste of space and a contrived reason for a loli to be around. The other thing I realized was that Lena was a large part of what made Volume 1 so good, and she is mostly absent in this volume. I don't know where to find a translated volume 3 right now but I'm not that interested in continuing at the moment, either. I'll wait a while. An anime adaptation will probably come out first, though. |
| "The lead researcher who’d effectively invented the Legion’s advanced artificial intelligence had passed away before the war even broke out, and the Federacy failed to develop a fully independent AI capable of matching the Legion. And even if they did, the government and the civilians all agreed that they would not employ such a tactic. Fighting to defend the country and their brethren was both the duty and right of the people, and they wouldn’t let machines take that away from them." That is something to write on people's tombstones. And that's the thing with this novel. It condemns racist genocide, sure (what a brave stance, by the way), but it usually endorses selfless, uncritical sacrifice for the state as long as it meets that very low bar of not being run by genocidal maniacs. They never really think about it further than that. This hypothetical scenario of sacrificing people even when it is not remotely necessary is the icing on the cake. It lacks nuance. You wouldn't have to make the Republic the epitome of evil to point out that ”hey, maybe blind loyalty to the state is not always a good thing.” There are far lesser crimes than all-out racist genocide that would justify dissent. Think about the sides in this conflict: The Republic: over-the-top evil and portrayed as such. The Federacy: portrayed as very virtuous; its flaws are barely ever mentioned and very little is done with them. The Legion: an amoral army of machines, essentially a force of nature. You can't negotiate with them or even peacefully surrender. That doesn't seem very interesting. The Legion are really the worst because they are so boring, and the two countries can't even communicate with each other at this point. Thus, the central conflict becomes uninteresting. Whenever there's yet another battle with the Legion, my mind zones out because they aren't even actual characters, only a tidal wave of robots without any personality. (Yes, there are people whose brains were assimilated, but they can't really act independently either. And simple AIs figuring out assimilation techniques seems impossible anyway, but that's a separate issue.) |
TheDeedsOfMenAug 28, 2019 7:01 AM
| I think you're misunderstanding something. Most of your counterarguments are causal explanations about why characters or factions believe what they do, while my arguments are about the normative justifications for those beliefs. For instance, it is perfectly realistic for people to throw their lives away in the name of patriotism. It happens all the time. What the novel lacks is proper arguments why this would be the right thing to do. Are you trying to say that ”patriotism is great because it is realistic that it's popular”? Also, even if you have proper normative justification, it might not be interesting enough to qualify as good writing. For instance, ”Racism is wrong because people of other skin colors are just as human.” Fair enough, but that's really simple and it isn't controversial or eye-opening (outside blatantly racist circles, at least). So it is picking low-hanging fruit and isn't much of a bold moral stance. Creonic said: 1) Moot point or not, the novel went out of its way to say that human sacrifice is morally better than using machines. The novel is trying to make a point here.I don't think that the Federacy would be happy building another Legion when they already got burned the first time in the civil war. Seeing your army turn on you is probably very traumatic. Moot point anyway when they don't have the tech to do so. 2) I am sure that people would be traumatized. What I am criticizing here is that this stance is irrational if you are trying to limit human sacrifice. Yes, it is realistic for people to be irrational, but that doesn't mean that the author has to praise them for it. Not sure what the alternative to selfless sacrifice is other than death at the hands (or nanobot tentacles? steel legs?) of the Legion . Seems like a lose-lose situation to me. I that situation, taking the noble sacrifice way out is probably a good bit better than waiting for the Legion onslaught to kill everyone because it at least gives them a chance to possibly push back. 1) But then the argument is no longer about patriotism but the other side being an existential threat to humanity in general. Those are entirely different things.2) This is one of the reasons why I called the Legion boring. They don't have personality, and you can't negotiate with them. The decision whether to fight against them isn't interesting in the least. Volume 1 made the point that the civilians of the Republic don't actually understand what's happening outside the walls. Can't really dissent when you are ignorant. Besides, even the minority that can guess are scared of being cast out or killed for disobeying the now authoritarian government. The leadership of the Republic is over-the-top evil though, and that is what I meant. They are basically the Nazi Party in Germany, who are used as token evil villains in fiction for the same reason. They are the kind of villains almost anyone can hate and make the protagonists easily look good in comparison. They are realistic, for sure, but their blatantly evil nature makes them less interesting.As for the countries: The Republic: Over the top evil? Not quite. We see several characters who give sympathy and support as well as one that understands the atrocity but gives a logical reason as to why they did it (they didn't want Moscow 1941). We'll see more later on in volume 4 and 5. The Federacy: Only Ernst is truly virtuous in this faction though I can see why you would think they are morally perfect. The rest are all fairly pragmatic (some ruthlessly so) though they do generally subscribe to the ideals that Ernst tries to uphold. While they try to be transparent to the public, they certainly make use of propaganda, though not to the extent of the Republic. I feel that their patriotism (probably where you get some of the overwhelming loyalty from) is also due to being a newborn country that had overthrown their dictators. Yes, they make use of patriotic propaganda, but the novel doesn't criticize them for it. It praises them. ”Glory to the two-headed eagle” is said as a matter of course and service to the state is never examined critically. There are some problems in the Federacy, like some discrimination, but not enough attention is given to it because so much time is spent fighting against the Legion or yet again pointing out that the Republic is run by racist scum. I feel that their patriotism (probably where you get some of the overwhelming loyalty from) is also due to being a newborn country that had overthrown their dictators. Again, this is a causal explanation, not a normative justification. This kind of thing happens all the time, but is it really a good argument in favor of patriotism?The Legion: Not much to say here that you haven't said though they're not entirely gone as you saw with Shourei. Might add that they are interesting symbolism though. Ghosts of war coming back to haunt the survivors? When did I suggest that they were gone? I just called them boring. The symbolism is also boring because so many hundreds of pages are dedicated to it without developing it much further. I already got the ”fallen soldiers assimilated into a horde” thing before; no need to spend hundreds of pages on it.Remember that this isn't so much of a plot-driven story as a character driven story similar to Grimgar (if you've read that). Sadly, Volume 2 is the worst volume of this series since it merely sets up the developments of Volume 3. I won't talk about character developments for now because that would spoil volume 3 significantly. I have read the first two volumes of Grimgar. Some of their problems are different, but I got the impression that the characters in Grimgar aren't very active thinkers either. They tend to be passive in the sense that they go along with what's expected of them. Also, most of the actual time is spent fighting against random monsters who aren't even developed as characters. I guess they are slightly more interesting than the Legion though. Both novels also have some really awkward dialogue when it comes to romantic comedy, even by light novel standards, though Grimgar more so....Unfortunately, these problems also tend to sink the characters. The plot and characters are intertwined, and the dialogue and the characters are also intertwined. The protagonists in Grimgar and the protagonists in 86 are both doing their best to fight against overwhelming hordes of enemies, but I'd prefer if they more often stopped to think about things and questioned what's going on in the society around them. Other than the ”racism is immoral” part, of course. Still, we get some important insights. For example, there's a major theme that the Eighty-Six are still shunned by the Federacy. It is more interesting than the all-out genocide going on in the Republic, but I think they have run the ”racism / xenophobia is immoral” message to the ground by now, at least in its simple form. They should try to show it in more subtle forms. Their passion for war despite being conscripts seems to contradict the beliefs of the citizen soldiers of the Federacy. A lot of this is similar to the stories of some multi-tour veterans returning from Iraq or Vietnam; society seems so alien to them that they would rather be back in the field that they've made their home. Shinei also said that they are fighting against the Legion because if they sit around, there is a good chance they will die anyway. Fair enough. But, as noted, that is precisely why the decision is boring. There is no real choice. If they genuinely wanted to keep fighting against an enemy that wasn't an existential threat, that would be a bit more interesting, at least if handled in the right way. At least Shinei and co. are not liking combat in a comically stupid way like some anime protagonists. I give them at least that much.Ultimately, this isn't a story about politics or classism or racism, which you seem to be fixated on. It's about the terrors of war and how they change people. The racism is just a backdrop that allows this story to have some historical basis. That's the thing. If the story actually thought more about politics, racism, and whatnot, I'd find it more interesting. Though I disagree on racism because it really is made to be an important theme here. Even in volume 2 they constantly remind you that the leadership of the Republic is racist scum. If it wasn't considered important, they wouldn't keep mentioning it.They spend hundreds of pages to point out that fighting against an overwhelming machine army is miserable and traumatizing. I figured that out right away; they don't need to tediously drill that in volume after volume. Not to mention, I have seen the same theme in so many traditional war stories that I was hoping for a bit more. Sure, demonstrate that war is miserable, but add some thought to it. |
TheDeedsOfMenSep 2, 2019 6:28 AM
| Finally, after quiet long time a got my hands on volume 2 and just finished it. I have volume 3 and 4 right next to it, so I am probably gonna give my full report on volume 3 to both, as I need to process my thoughts of it. But few things are sure, I certainly like it and hope it gets anime adaptation. Cute is righteous and cute girls in pilot suits are righteous! I hope some it will be adapted with some matured studio though that will leave our pilots in field uniforms and panzer jackets. I don't wanna see Shin in tight pilot suit. Lena on other hand... Yes there are some things like forced loli in story, even though I like hidden empire's heir between the crew, Laughing fox using grappling hooks because Attack on titan is cool was also forced not ground in reality decision, yes there are bit time skips and we know how it's gonna went because we were spoiled by volume one, but overall I still really like most of stuff and I think having this story is better then skipping right to where volume one epilogue ended and going from there, even though I hope we get to there as well. Yes, 5 stars for me, gonna read volume 3 now. |
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| I absolutely loved the first volume...and really did not like this one. So boring and why the loli? She's not even likable. I seriously hope the next volume returns with the quality of the first. |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| After a very good first volume, with emotional depth and thematic depth, this volume was... rough to get through. It's a shame since vol 1 really did do a good job in setting up the foundation for the narrative, and honestly this volume didn't do a good and interesting job in building on that here. The cast was the biggest issue here. In the first volume, Lena was fantastic for me as we saw someone who clearly was really hearty and caring but very naive, grow up and understand and try to support the discriminated 86. Even Shin and his thoughts about his brother were rushed but fairly well done and both had great chemistry, and the support cast while lacking development, had great parts in minor roles - especially after Kaie's death seeing how they would react and talk back to Lena to show what the real struggles of being an 86 were. All of that was sort of lost and put to the side here. Sure it does focus more from Shin's perspective and it was nice seeing somewhat of the other side, but the cast in this volume was pretty forgettable and quite frankly, unlikable too for the most part. Frederica wasn't a good addition either, and the motives and development was poorly established here despite a couple of welcoming concepts seeing a discriminated group be welcomed somewhere. It was full of mediocre exposition dumping, poor characters, and a general lack of emotional depth that the first volume had with barely any interesting or important thematic depth whatsoever. It felt like reading a completely different series rather than a part of the world of 86. Poor volume, and hearing that volume 3 continues this storyline, I'm not excited. Already hoping that vol 4 does a much better job in bringing my interest back. |
| The volume wasnt horrible or anything, but its definitely a downgrade from the first volume. Anyways It has been several years since I last shed a tear for a robot. Thank god Fido is back. |
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| So Shin and the other 86 survivors managed to find a new home in the Federacy. Ernst, who took them in, is a great guy. Well, at least the Federacy is a better place for them than the Republic. Knowing how things ended after the end of volume 1, I didn't enjoy it that much though the ending with the cliffhanger(?) piqued my interest. The Legions are not joking around with their all-out invasion of the countries. |
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| I think some many exaggerating about this volume, a bit too much. Yes, it is not as good, but then again, Lena is also missing most of the time, this volume was still better than I expected from all the posts above. The first chapters were rather slow, but once it starts to explore how the 86 are now living and coming to term with themselves, to then decide they still want to enlist, it gradually picked my interest more, and the battles near the end are tense, I reminisced a lot to GoT S8 episode 3, solely because the descriptions fitted so well, you really get a good feel for the atmosphere, of being dark outside and an immense force rushing towards you. Shitty bastards waited till nightfall to launch an attack... Also loved how this volume concluded, of course, they survived the blast, but then also switching to Lena and the start of the Fall of the Republic, that vol1 had talked about in the end... really made me wanna pick up vol3 and start to read right away! As for the new rooster of characters introduced, Frederica was a good addiction, I do not think the writer was trying to force lolies in the plot, but it does feel odd some illustrations, she looks almost like a young adult, they others, like a child, feels a bit odd to put such young people in uniform suits, but oh well... I have an idea of how some stuff will progress from here, we could they will meet again, the end of volume 1, and I m very interested in the direction the series is going for. Getting some vibes of Hi Shin Unit from Kingdom, from what I glimpse on volume 3 and 4. And I really enjoy reading the afterword, It kinda hard to see the writer as a female, from what she writes there, but I won't disagree with the logic that pilot suits suit cute girls! NGE proved this a long time ago, and Tsugumi from Guilty Crown, had some rather interesting poses herself. All in all, it was actually a relevant topic to mention, since they do use typical soldier uniforms, so in the future, it does make sense if some kind of pilot suit could be developed, that would protect more. |
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| I agree with the post above me. People largely exaggerated how much of a downgrade this volume actually was. Yes, there was no Lena (for the most part). Yes, it was a volume dedicated purely for setup. Yes, Fredrica at first seemed like an odd addition. However, the more I delved into this volume, the more I saw how much it added to the story. The amount of word building we got was great. Exploring a whole new country was also a nice journey. I also like how the author is depicting the Federacy as a nation that subscribes to ideals of virtue and goodwill and took pity on the 86, but also stresses the fact that the 86 cannot trust them yet because you never know when they’ll turn their backs on their values like the Republic, and then this goodwill starts to morph into something more malicious. This makes the readers also wonder, can we trust the Federacy? Are they as good as they seem? As for Frederica, the more I read this volume, the more I found her to blend in well with the group. She had her motives and reasons, and her being the last empress just connects her more to the story. |
Shishou_23May 31, 2021 4:15 AM
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| This volume definitely wasn't as good as the first volume, but it's not as bad as people say it is. This volume and most likely volume 3 as well is setup, and it shows us what happened in between volume 1 and the epilogue. It introduces us to the Federacy which is important and I think Frederica is a good character that has plenty of room for development. Eugene dying really made me sad though damn, that part was done really well for me. And that interlude was just sad, our Bloody Reina was the only one competent enough act. I think the legion attacks are definitely all happening at the same time, so I wonder if A-1 will do the switching of perspectives again once the anime reaches the legion attacks. |
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| Quite a departure from the first volume's theme of criticizing racism/classism and instead showcase the direct effects of war towards those that knows nothing else I know this vol is mostly a setup for the next one but the absence of Lana can really be felt and makes this quite sluggish to read through. Frederica and Ernst are fine additions but moreso on the latter due to his intriguing background (I'll just let Frede's speech pattern slide despite her being 10 y/o). The surviving 86's new mechas are cool but Theo now being a Spiderman with the grappling hooks is LOL. What a cliffhanger to end this with, an impending doom to all neighbouring countries... oh wait nvm Vol 1's epilogue says otherwise 😊 |
 Novels I have read/am reading pending approval: since November 10 2022 |
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