| hi, I wanted to ask one thing concerning suzuha's mission in the alpha world line that bothered me. (this is a little off-topic so sorry for posting this here, I wanted to ask as many people as possible) Remember the moment when Suzuha sees Okabe and Kurisu carrying the IBN5100 to the lab? As you remember, before travelling to 1975 she stopped in 2010 to find her father, and if she failed she'd go on with her mission to 1975. The IBN she saw was the IBN she had brought from the past so that means she was obseving the consequnces of her future selves activity. Wasn't she even surprised? Like, she doesn't have to waste her life in 1975 anymore because the IBN was already there. Her mission was completed without even starting.   The question is, why didn't she tell Okabe to delete his first D-mail back there in episode 4? She was going to do that in the first place anyway but stayed idle until Okabe screwed everything up lol. I've been asking this several times but got no clear answer yet, different people gave different answers. My thought was that it was necessary for Okabe to live through three weeks to fall in love with Kurisu in order to be motivated to save the world from WW3 in Beta (as he himself said in the video mail), BUT neither Alpha Okabe nor Alpha Suzuha from 2036 could be aware of this fact so this is incorrect either. |
| Well, in the way you are putting second part of your question is pretty interesting, so let's talk about this. Roflan said: Remember the moment when Suzuha sees Okabe and Kurisu carrying the IBN5100 to the lab? As you remember, before travelling to 1975 she stopped in 2010 to find her father, and if she failed she'd go on with her mission to 1975. The IBN she saw was the IBN she had brought from the past so that means she was obseving the consequnces of her future selves activity. Wasn't she even surprised? Like, she doesn't have to waste her life in 1975 anymore because the IBN was already there. Her mission was completed without even starting. This first half of question has not any major problems. First of all Suzuha is afraid of paradoxes. She know things about time travel but she is not nearly close to future scientists and what they know about it. There are many moments like this in S;G when characters say wrong things because they don't know enough knowledge and sometimes it is direct lie(ex: Kurisu in ep22). So back to your question >Like, she doesn't have to waste her life in 1975 anymore because the IBN was already there. Her mission was completed without even starting. This is wrong. Physical time travel is established event. What I mean by this? I would like to explain this on example of episode 16: Let's look at grandfather paradox. So if you time travel to the past and would try to kill yourself it would cause paradox, right? In S;G this just can't happen because in World Line everything was already predetermined. If you will time travel and try to kill yourself you just will not be able to do that, something will happen that will prevent you from doing that (attractor field), because when you was born in the past you from the future already was there trying to kill you and didn't succeed. In episode 16 when Suzuha traveled in time machine after it was repaired to get IBM-5100 World Line didn't change in the moment when she went to the past. Because it was already predetermined and she already was in the past and wrote that letter that Mr.Braum gave to Okabe and others a few hours later. So Suzuha traveling back in time is unavoidable. Also She still didn't travel to the past(In Alpha her time machine goes only back in time) so she is not sure about anything. >>The question is, why didn't she tell Okabe to delete his first D-mail back there in episode 4? She was going to do that in the first place anyway but stayed idle until Okabe screwed everything up lol. This one is more interesting. Aside from "because plot demands" I can suggest next explanation: Basically what you said - she didn't make any actions because it was too early. She wasn't suppose to be in 2010 in first place, she should went straight to 1975 but decided to stop in 2010 to find her father. You can see multiply times how she was spying Okabe and Kurisu and only in ep14 where she realized that Okabe tried to fix everything many times and everything is really bad and only then she decided to introduce herself and explain things. She was not even sure if deleting first d-mail will help. |
Ferra01045 said: i didn't think much on my response so what i'm writing is only based on istinct, if i thought more over it i probably would be confused af trying to understand and right now i don't want to do that lol, so don't trust my words... but isn't that ibn 5100 the one that faris simply gave to the shrine? if so then Suzuha didn't have to do anything. Suzuha gave IBN-5100 to Faris family in first place, then Faris gave it to shrine. |
| What i understand here is because the story follows Okabe, let me explain, this story following Okabe Rintarou traveling between worldline. So if Okabe did NOT timetravel, the worldline did NOT changed. So at the worldline where suzuha traveling back to past it is already been done in past of this worldline. When suzuha travel with her time machine worldline didn't changed because we followed Okabe and 1975 Suzuha already there since begining. Everything cause & effect is predetermined. |
likepandaApr 20, 2018 11:12 AM
naufalirfan said: What i understand here is because the story follows Okabe, let me explain, this story following Okabe Rintarou traveling between worldline. So if Okabe did NOT timetravel, the worldline did NOT changed. So at the worldline where suzuha traveling back to past it is already been done in past of this worldline. When suzuha travel with her time machine worldline didn't changed because we followed Okabe. Everything cause & effect is predetermined. World Lines are not parallel world that exist simultaneously, you are right about us following Okabe's perspective but not for reason that you are saying. Also > When suzuha travel with her time machine worldline didn't changed because we followed Okabe It didn't change because even you said that cause and effect is predetermined. I explained exactly this moment in ep16 in comment above, it's hard to change WL with time machine, it didn't change for that reason, not because we are following Okabe. |
HoTTab1CH said: naufalirfan said: What i understand here is because the story follows Okabe, let me explain, this story following Okabe Rintarou traveling between worldline. So if Okabe did NOT timetravel, the worldline did NOT changed. So at the worldline where suzuha traveling back to past it is already been done in past of this worldline. When suzuha travel with her time machine worldline didn't changed because we followed Okabe. Everything cause & effect is predetermined. World Lines are not parallel world that exist simultaneously, you are right about us following Okabe's perspective but not for reason that you are saying. Also > When suzuha travel with her time machine worldline didn't changed because we followed Okabe It didn't change because even you said that cause and effect is predetermined. I explained exactly this moment in ep16 in comment above, it's hard to change WL with time machine, it didn't change for that reason, not because we are following Okabe. At the time Okabe arrive at this worldline Suzuha is already going back to past, so when recent Suzuha travel with time machine she didn't change anything (because she already exist in past) all of this because we following Okabe, if Suzuha have reading steiner ability and we follow her prespective, traveling back in time can make difference Part that worldlines exist simultaneously is not possible to know, we follow Okabe as reading steiner so with this prespective we can't possibly know if other worldline still 'exist' (going on) |
likepandaApr 20, 2018 11:48 AM
HoTTab1CH said: So back to your question >Like, she doesn't have to waste her life in 1975 anymore because the IBN was already there. Her mission was completed without even starting. This is wrong. Physical time travel is established event. What I mean by this? I would like to explain this on example of episode 16: ... So Suzuha traveling back in time is unavoidable. Also She still didn't travel to the past(In Alpha her time machine goes only back in time) so she is not sure about anything. This is interesting, I understand what you mean, but still this isn't wrong as you say. If all events are predetermined within a certain world line, then in this case we are safe to state that the Suzuha who sacrificed herself and passed the IBN5100 to Farris' father allowed the other Suzuha to obtain that IBN with no effort. Which means, she was still able to inform Okabe right away, but she didn't. HoTTab1CH said: This one is more interesting. Aside from "because plot demands" I can suggest next explanation: Basically what you said - she didn't make any actions because it was too early. She wasn't suppose to be in 2010 in first place, she should went straight to 1975 but decided to stop in 2010 to find her father. You can see multiply times how she was spying Okabe and Kurisu and only in ep14 where she realized that Okabe tried to fix everything many times and everything is really bad and only then she decided to introduce herself and explain things. She was not even sure if deleting first d-mail will help. So what you are trying to say is that she was not quite sure what she should do and acted on her own because she wasn't informed on the details of the mission? Well I heard that version before and it might explain the whole thing. If it's so then it really seems like a plot-demanding element of the show. --- P. S.: I want to ask one more thing about how attractors work: Imagine that you have a time-travel button that will physically bring you one minute back in time. You're going to press this button with a firm determination to go and stop your past self from pressing it. Will you be stopped by your future self? Well, he couldn't stop you since he never pressed it too, or did he? Or will you manage to stop yourself so that you are the only one who managed to time travel while others didn't? Like in case with Suzuha, one of them sacrificed herself, the other obtained the IBN. What are your thoughts on this? |
RoflanApr 20, 2018 12:28 PM
HoTTab1CH said: In S;G this just can't happen because in World Line everything was already predetermined. If you will time travel and try to kill yourself you just will not be able to do that, something will happen that will prevent you from doing that (attractor field), because when you was born in the past you from the future already was there trying to kill you and didn't succeed. Hm, if you are not able to kill yourself for the only reason that you managed to survive till the moment you travel back, then it means that everyone is immortal. Say, you're going to kill Hitler while he was a child but we know that he lived much longer so something should prevent you from killing him right? So according to this logic you basically cannot change anything at all, because if it's simply recorded in history, something will prevent you from changing the facts. |
Roflan said: This is interesting, I understand what you mean, but still this isn't wrong as you say. If all events are predetermined within a certain world line, then in this case we are safe to state that the Suzuha who sacrificed herself and passed the IBN5100 to Farris' father allowed the other Suzuha to obtain that IBN with no effort. Which means, she was still able to inform Okabe right away, but she didn't. This is one of those examples that not everything that characters say are correct. She didn't knew that her actions in time machine are pretty pointless(in terms of changing WL). Also it can't be stated that she allowed future self to obtain it since as we saw, 1975 Suzuha was fated to die every time in ~2000 and she had no idea about that. Roflan said: So what you are trying to say is that she was not quite sure what she should do and acted on her own because she wasn't informed on the details of the mission? Well I heard that version before and it might explain the whole thing. If it's so then it really seems like a plot-demanding element of the show. Pretty much this. Also I just thought about it right now. Suzuha never intended to stop in 2010 so I started to doubt that IBN-5100 was for Okabe in 2010, maybe it was intended to be discovered later by him in the future. But since she stopped in 2010, this plan was basically accidental improvisation in ep14 from her and she never intended to tell Okabe in 2010 about deleting first d-mail. Roflan said: P. S.: I want to ask one more thing about how attractors work: Imagine that you have a time-travel button that will physically bring you one minute back in time. You're going to press this button with a firm determination to go and stop your past self from pressing it. Will you be stopped by your future self? Well, he couldn't stop you since he never pressed it too, or did he? Or will you manage to stop yourself so that you are the only one who managed to time travel while others didn't? Like in case with Suzuha, one of them sacrificed herself, the other obtained the IBN. What are your thoughts on this? Again, this is basically grandfather paradox that I already explained. In Steins;Gate time travel mechanic it's just impossible to happen. If you in the past never saw yourself from the future, you will not be able to jump back in time and prevent yourself from pushing the button. Something will happen that will prevent future you from preventing pushing the button. This, example from ep16 and events with stabbing Kurisu in ep1 and 23 (which are exactly same events but from different perspectives) are examples of avoiding grandfather paradox in S;G. Also it's strange to tell: >Like in case with Suzuha, one of them sacrificed herself, the other obtained the IBN It's all same Suzuha, maybe it seems strange from side perspective, but for her it is just 1 her life in different time spans. Also just little side note-reminder: in Steins;Gate World Lines are not parallel worlds that exist simultaneously. |
Roflan said: HoTTab1CH said: In S;G this just can't happen because in World Line everything was already predetermined. If you will time travel and try to kill yourself you just will not be able to do that, something will happen that will prevent you from doing that (attractor field), because when you was born in the past you from the future already was there trying to kill you and didn't succeed. Hm, if you are not able to kill yourself for the only reason that you managed to survive till the moment you travel back, then it means that everyone is immortal. Say, you're going to kill Hitler while he was a child but we know that he lived much longer so something should prevent you from killing him right? So according to this logic you basically cannot change anything at all, because if it's simply recorded in history, something will prevent you from changing the facts. Pretty much yes. basically in S;G changing past and future by changing WL is possible only because Okabe's ability to remember changes. If there was no Okabe's ability, even if somebody accidentally or not would change world lines somehow, nobody would remember or realize that. However there will be some things in S;G0 that almost contradict with what I'm saying and this is some thin ice that I and some other people didn't like much in S;G0. |
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