DodgeOffset said: This was a recent thread.Don't know where the people who make these common claims are. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1717814&show=0 Here's a post in that thread that mentions it even more specifically: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1717814&show=50#msg54774715 And I had a long conversation starting on page 7 with this one person who insisted that The Last Jedi is some sort of SJW/feminist/anti-capitalist screed and sucks because of it. Here's a post in another thread. The thread's OP itself arguably implies this but doesn't say it explicitly, so I went with highlighting a specific post instead. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1693662&show=0#msg53425363 |
GlennMagusHarveyApr 11, 2018 3:08 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Its Netflix after all, so go figure. |
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Gaiga said: While going through anime made by production IG, I noticed how many of their anime either empowering to women or cater to female fans E.g. Best known anime from the studio are Ghost in the shell, psycho pass and attack on titan, all of which are known for their strong female characters. Others include anime like seirei no moribito The studio has adapted many manga with strong female fanbase like haikyuu and kuroko no basket It has adapted many shoujo and josei manga like Kimi no todoke, usagi drop and ao haru ride What do you guys think? The most feminist studio is actually Studio Ghibli (Nausicaa, Mononoke, Castle in the Sky, Spirited Away, etc) |
on DodgeOffset said: Fair enough.GlennMagusHarvey said: This was a recent thread. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1717814&show=0 Here's a post in that thread that mentions it even more specifically: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1717814&show=50#msg54774715 And I had a long conversation starting on page 7 with this one person who insisted that The Last Jedi is some sort of SJW/feminist/anti-capitalist screed and sucks because of it. Here's a post in another thread. The thread's OP itself arguably implies this but doesn't say it explicitly, so I went with highlighting a specific post instead. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1693662&show=0#msg53425363 I wouldn't call TLJ bad because of SJW but tbf Holdo was pretty damn suspicious. The movie was bad because it was just retarded as a whole. A lot more can be said for that than for whatever SJW agenda there is in the movie. Like maybe Rey has to do with feminism? But my main problem lies with how she's just brute forcing her way through everything thanks to "tehforce." So yeah, wouldn't say it's SJWs that ruined TLJ. I find it ironic that anti-feminists point to Holdo as evidence of feminists forcing female dominance. Because you could maybe make that argument in-universe, but not out of universe, because she's actually not that great of a leader, and specifically somewhat of a poor communicator. To argue that she's forced feminism gone wrong, you'd have to argue that the writers put her in charge but then also argue that they couldn't see that she'd screw things up...which is clearly not the case, because the writers decided that too. Overall I found the movie rather interesting. It was certainly not meant to be gratifying (in the sense of having the good guys win a lot). Rather, it seemed to lay the groundwork for many story threads, while continuing or wrapping up other threads. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| They made a lot of anime, and they just happened to make some with strong female characters (just like pierrot) |
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SNK is an excellent example of a feminist anime. |
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| Production I.G. is one of the better studios but >Shitneki no Kyojin >Feminist  |
 Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
| @DodgeOffset I kinda want to reply to you point by point, but since I already had a long discussion about Star Wars Episode VIII in one of those threads I linked (starting at page 7 in the thread), I don't feel like writing it all out again. You're welcome to read it, even though I don't address precisely your points in those posts I made earlier. I don't mean to dismiss your criticisms of it, although I disagree with them. I'm sorry if I'm a little blunt on this, but I just don't feel like going over this in detail again. FWIW I remember reading a commentary that the Force might be something that's more than just a hereditary superpower given to the Skywalkers, and it may be the case that it's more distributed in the universe than previously thought. Anyway, as someone who isn't a longtime Star Wars fan, I actually got more interested in the worldbuilding/setting stuff after watching this movie. It's ironic, because this is a movie where so much tragedy occurs, and so much goes wrong, yet I actually feel more invested in the setting now. I actually want to find out what happens to everyone afterwards. I want to find out what happens to broom boy, for example. Also, IMO, Luke had the downright best scene in the entire movie. |
GlennMagusHarveyApr 12, 2018 12:28 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
DodgeOffset said: It goes until like page 12, on and off. I think I ended up with the last post in the thread just because that's finally when a mod locked the thread.Okay, I went and read the whole of page 7. DodgeOffset said: I don't remember which scene you're talking about and I don't have the movie in front of me to check so I'll refrain on answering this.So let's get some of the more concrete stuff out of the way: - Do you disagree with the fact that an open space hatch into a spaceship shouldn't do what it did in the movie? Like the hatch just opens up and they let Leia in while the hatch is still open. DodgeOffset said: Here's the article: https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/15/16780676/star-wars-the-last-jedi-the-force-midi-chlorians-spoilers- I would like hear this commentary on the force. And I don't think other characters having the force is such a big deal. Main problem comes in when characters just get free passes and the plot exempts other characters because they are bound by actual rules, like training, apprentice, experience. This problem is usually caused by lazy writing, and subverting exposition or any consistency over not only the prequels or OT, but also like every canon or non-cannon novel written on the universe. Except maybe the novels that will be written for this trilogy. Poor guy that'll have to write that stuff in prose without looking like a fruitcake. I just thought it was an interesting perspective. For what it's worth, I'm not someone who's been a fan for many years and who's seen piles of stuff and is a veteran of debates over whether any given thing is canon. As I explained in those posts, I've seen Episode III and Episode VIII, and anything else I know about Star Wars comes through cultural diffusion (which can sometimes be a surprising amount, since I've had to read up on the debate over who shot first, for example). So maybe you can say I don't know how the Star Wars universe works, or maybe you can say I'm a fresh set of eyes on said universe. But after all, this is a fictional universe whose rules may or may not be what we "know", and knowledge of which can change depending on how we understand and interpret things. But, in short, I won't be debating the consistency, with regards to canon, of any given thing that happens in the movie. This was not my approach to this movie, nor is it something I'm qualified to talk about because I haven't seen a lot of Star Wars lore. DodgeOffset said: A person can certainly change, as well as hold back their efforts. Even in real life, it's entirely possible for someone to do great things that they later can't replicate, or to have skills they find themselves unable to make use of because their heart isn't in it. And Luke's heart rather clearly wasn't in it in the movie, at least for most of it.- Luke's character... Okay, so this movie is telling me that the dude that absolutely did not give up on the second most evil character in the universe (Vader), who is also his father, actually "chickened" out after getting some weird vision about his nephew having darkside powers, which compared to Vader is almost nothing. Not only that but Luke, a legendary Jedi, gets rekt by Rey in a stick fight? Like I get that the screenwriter's are giving Rey tips and letting her skip some actual coherent steps but damn, beating Luke? Okay. Well, I guess coherency wasn't on the table, my bad. DodgeOffset said: Just because Holdo's wrong doesn't mean Poe is right -- it's possible for them both to be wrong, in different ways. And the greater overarching theme I saw, was that things just didn't go right for almost anyone. Failure and setbacks were themselves a theme.- Holdo was clearly a retarded leader, and the movie would like you to think that she realized she was retarded and therefore did something unbelievably noble. And that's all fine now. But why was Poe treated in such an ill-toned manner by the movie, especially when he contests with Holdo? What is the movie trying to tell me here? Poe wants answers and Holdo just goes "nah" and then "look, poe is being naughty." What subtext is hidden here? I can see someone saying "it's teh feminism, look Poe is a guy, she has purple hair, she doesn't want to tell him anything because she can do everything herself or whatever." Unless you can describe another underlying theme in there? That woman are incompetent? Maybe? That's the only other one, I can see in there. Either way, it's dumb. DodgeOffset said: Maybe because it's very costly, and/or unreliable, and/or poorly-researched?- Then back to Holdo hyperspace jumping into the First Order super fleet. Can you see the problem this introduced? Why has no one ever used hyperspace as a weapon? I mean, the ship used in the movie was several times smaller than the stardestroyers in the back of the fleet, let alone the super ship in the front. But it managed to destroy the whole fleet. You can use droids, maybe? A tiefighter is about on scale with a star destroyer like Holdo's ship is with the super huge ship. So next movie, if we get some tense spaceship battle, we're just gonna ignore this? Because we certainly had none of it in the previous movies. DodgeOffset said: They were trying to protect and/or buy time for the Resistance folks hiding in the base. One of their objectives was to destroy -- or at least reduce the impact of -- the battering ram cannon.- Then some weird continuity stuff, editing errors if you will, those ground ships in that final battle on the salt desert... They all just go out and face the First Order army to do what? What? Okay, answer that and then we'll get back to that (tied with Rose Tico scene). DodgeOffset said: Adrenaline? Plain dumb luck? Dunno.Those ground ships just go straight across that massive field of salt, and it's quite the distance iirc, but then right after Tico crashes into Finn, they have to get back... to the cave. They do. How? How did Finn drag Tico all the way across that massive field of salt with the army standing right there, and in so little time? |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Production I.G., home of such amazing feminist anime as Cromartie High School and Diabolik Lovers. |
| "No, son, you may not have your body pillow at the dinner table!" |
DodgeOffset said: Like I said earlier, I don't feel like discussing this further, so pardon me for not responding to you in detail.You can like this film all you want but that doesn't change the fact that it's just the worse star wars film to date. And not only is it a bad Star Wars film, it's a bad film. Like I say with anime, I don't find it particularly meaningful to say what is or isn't "bad". One can say something is "bad", but if it created a meaningful experience for something else, is it then truly "bad"? Perhaps not. That doesn't mean it's truly "good" either -- it just means it was effective at some things, and not effective at others. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
DodgeOffset said: I didn't say pointing out what you think is bad is "not meaningful". I said that the movie "created a meaningful experience for something else", meaning it created a meaningful experience for a different purpose. Sorry I didn't word that well; might be more relevant to say it "created a meaningful experience for someone else", specifically myself (and other people who enjoyed it).GlennMagusHarvey said: Like I said earlier, I don't feel like discussing this further, so pardon me for not responding to you in detail. Like I say with anime, I don't find it particularly meaningful to say what is or isn't "bad". One can say something is "bad", but if it created a meaningful experience for something else, is it then truly "bad"? Perhaps not. That doesn't mean it's truly "good" either -- it just means it was effective at some things, and not effective at others. Poorly put together. = bad. if this movie is a meaningful experience, you're gonna have to point out "meaning" to me, because pretty much everything is pulled out of someone's behind. And the plot builds on flimsy character interactions. You can like it, as I said. But bad is bad. You can still overlook most of the detriments and still enjoy the film, probably. I just couldn't. If something is poorly constructed then it is bad, don't see where the hesitation would come from? This isn't rocket science. And why is pointing out the bad "not meaningful" ? It's fine that you don't like the movie. I'm not here to tell you you should. And frankly speaking, I sometimes find myself in your shoes, like when I'm criticizing Madoka Magica's storytelling for feeling artificial and lacking proper depth of characterization. But clearly other people found something to enjoy about it. So is Madoka Magica bad? I mean, I can insist it is, but that'll just get me into endless and pointless arguments. So I'm like, yeah, whatever. You feel Star Wars Episode VIII was "poorly constructed" and I don't feel that way; you felt that story was "pulled out of someone's behind" and "built on flimsy character interactions", and I don't feel that way. Simple as that. It's not the first time I've disagreed with people on the merits of a story, and it likely won't be the last. |
GlennMagusHarveyApr 13, 2018 2:19 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| I don't care aslong as they don't start that stupid shit where it's all '' All men are rapists '' '' You're raping me with your stare at my shorts that dosen't even cover half my ass '' |
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DodgeOffset said: I haven't watched The Room, but I've seen bits of it, and it seems to be an example of a work that fails at certain objectives (in its case, verisimilitude) and succeeds at others (in its case, self-parody). Which was essentially the point I was making earlier.I feel The Room is an absolute catastrophe and only a fool would say that it's a good film, but guess what... I was entertained. We can like things that are garbo. DodgeOffset said: No, of course I don't, because everything about Star Wars is a fiction. Because Star Wars itself is fiction. We can argue 'til the cows come home and beyond, about how the universe does or doesn't work, about what did or didn't happen canonically, etc. except all of it is fictional anyway.But denying actual facts that happen in the movie... to justify you liking it... mkay. Everything I said about Star Wars is a fact, literally. Don't believe me? Anyway,... DodgeOffset said: if you didn't like my "non-response" (in your words) earlier, enjoy this point by point rebuttal.And if you're gonna answer with the non-response DodgeOffset said: If you want to simulate this to full verisimilitude, are you neglecting the further possibility that if Holdo just let Poe go off and do his own thing, he could have just gotten himself unceremoniously killed or worse (e.g. captured and used as a pawn or to get intel)? Did the characters have actually foresee the outcomes of their decisions at the time? Of course not. It was a judgement call on both sides.Then watch the Holdo scene with Poe, where Poe desperately does the thing anyone else would do, but gets spanked because he needs to learn some arbitrary lesson. DodgeOffset said: How exactly did this happen? Are you meaning to say that you can (1) accurately compare the power level of a metaphysical illusion at the base of a waterfall with working through one's self-doubt with fighting Kylo and Snoke, and then furthermore (2) postulate with full accuracy that that one-dimensional level of "strength" can be measured against Rey's corresponding character stat to determine success or failure without fail?Watch Rey just getting stronger and stronger for no reason. Heck, even D&D has six base attribute scores that do different things. And another thing that D&D has (at least in 3.5, which I've played), is a tendency for the outcome of conflicts to turn on very small factors. Not "is your stat higher than my stat", but rather, little things like... DodgeOffset said: ...Rey noticing that Snoke totally took his attention off the lightsaber sitting right next to him, which he gloatingly put there himself. If you catch someone off guard, you can easily defeat someone of far higher level.Watch Snoke die, the end. DodgeOffset said: Watch Finn drag Rose Tico across a massive desert in so little time while also not getting shot. DodgeOffset said: Does the rest of the movie happen in real-time? :P-Finn and Rose just appearing back in the cave, no questions asked. DodgeOffset said: That was explained by her use of the Force, and it wasn't without consequences, either.Watch Leia pull off some weird superman move out in space without dying, DodgeOffset said: Oh, you don't need to accept it, because it's fiction. And I mean that seriously. You can declare it non-canon if you want. Meanwhile, people can and do change dramatically in real life, in far less time, so why is it so surprising in fiction?Watch Luke not be Luke, and turn into a hermit on some island because guess what 30 years have passed which means we get to do whatever we want with him, and you just need to accept it. DodgeOffset said: She came in flying above all the topography, on her own ride.-Rey at the end of the movie, when she magically appears in the right place to lift rubble that just happens to be the rubble that blocked the resistance's path. But hey, at least that scene looks all nice and pretty, amiright? DodgeOffset said: Maybe because the leadership wanted her around for some reason we don't know about?-Captain Phasma who got put in a dustbin hole on the death star in VII, just magically reappears in VIII. Not dead, even though the Death Star exploded, not demoted, still Captain, because some characters don't get consequences for their actions. DodgeOffset said: If you're looking toward this movie just to have certain desires of yours tickled, then I guess, depending on those desires, prepare to be disappointed, because it's not necessarily going to serve those desires.Watch the entire plot build a flimsy narrative that could have been solved since the very beginning but keeps going because the plot needs it and its characters to make odd, idiotic decisions to up the "stakes". DodgeOffset said: Because it makes great military sense to try to send out a portion of one's forces to stop something, when one already has a way to tell where it's headed, and there's both a strategic advantage to running it out of gas, and the possibility of planning an ambush?And any of the enemy ships could have cut the resistance ship off. Any But no, "they will outrun us, sir." DodgeOffset said: No, a lot of things make sense.Nothing make sense. It might not be perfect, so you can always nitpick at things, but if that's all you're doing, then you might as well just go write your own fanfiction. |
GlennMagusHarveyApr 14, 2018 7:57 AM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| I guess if you want to see it that way. I don't see why an anime studio would want to politicize its content and try to alienate part its audience to push their own agenda. I don't agree with your opinion as I don't feel like it would be very financially viable and feminism is not really a mainstream thing in Japan to the point where creators would consciously go out their way to promote it. |
 "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -Friedrich Nietzsche |
DodgeOffset said: Okay, look, frankly speaking, we're looking at this two different ways.[giant pile of words] I'm looking back at this film and I say, yeah, this film has coherent thematic elements that follow a sensible dramatic progression, this film tells a reasonably interesting story about the characters, and this film succeeds at wanting to make me enjoy more of the Star Wars universe -- something that the other Star Wars film I've seen (Episode III) actually failed to do. I want to see how the Resistance gets back on its feet, I want to see more of what Rey does, I want to see more of Broom Boy (whose name I think is Temiri Blagg), and so on. It'll be quite interesting to see how the Resistance goes about making and accumulating new allies. And I look forward to this. You're looking back at this film and you're basically going, this film defies such-and-such precedents and ignores context as established in prior movies, disobeys such-and-such rules and laws and conventions, is inconsistent with your previous understanding of the movie's fictional universe (as defined by preceding works), and as a result doesn't make sense. Fundamentally, you're looking for "more of the same", while I'm not (in part because I don't really have a "same" to look for). Yes, I get that you didn't enjoy the movie. Incidentally: DodgeOffset said: I've found that this tends to happen -- the more I talk about a thing I didn't like, the more I seem to discover/realize more things I didn't like about it, the more I find elements that justify my dislike.The more I talk about this film, the worse it gets. Anyway, maybe you were looking to "find common ground" in the sense of having someone give you a satisfactory re-explanation of the story through the details and mechanics of the universe, by connecting the events of Episode VIII to said prior works. I'm sorry, I can't offer you that, as I haven't seen said prior works. Maybe you could then argue that I don't have sufficient basis to judge the quality of this movie, but this would itself open another giant can of worms, such as arguing that all those people who gave the PSO2 anime series a poor score without having actually played the game it's related to shouldn't have scored the series (which was far better-appreciated by the Japanese fanbase who actually played the game, particularly because it actually tied into and heavily referenced said game, which lacks a western release.). Besides, it's not like Episode VIII was made solely for existing fans of the Star Wars franchise only, and no one else. On a sidenote: DodgeOffset said: basically everything aside from maybe the original trilogy is essentially this. It's just building on top of existing stories within a fictional universe. And indeed, I've seen longtime fans complain similarly about the prequel trilogy, how it doesn't mesh with the original trilogy for a variety of reasons.Funny that you would use the word "fanfiction", which is pretty much what this film is at this point. |
GlennMagusHarveyApr 15, 2018 5:40 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| The fact that girls with guns is considered a genre in Japan pretty much shows it's just a fetishization of strong females not some feminist thing. |
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