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A Silent Voice
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Apr 1, 2018 11:51 PM
#1
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Jun 2016
871
Contents removed due to it being embarrassing that I got so worked up.
Tenderizer79Jan 17, 2020 1:42 AM
Apr 2, 2018 7:32 AM
#2

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Apr 2016
767
Maybe this detective has a handicap and hates seeing someone with handicap being put in the hopeless pitied position ? It might strike a chord.

Having said that, I've read somewhere else criticism against Kyoani overdoing the "injured puppy" or the "weak little doll" trope to get some tears. It might be true to some degree.
Furthermore the fact that Nishimiyia doesn't have enough character traits is true. I think so too.

About the intention, Detective is probably wrong, though I don't know the mangaka personally and couldn't say for sure she isn't that cynical person who just took the illness factor to make it even more pitiable. I just doubt it. Bullying is a theme worth writing about. Deafness too. Why not both in one story without ulterior motive ? Bullying is naturally linked to weakness and difference anyway.


Or we could look at this review in an even more twisted way. "Detective" himself is capitalizing on the illness theme of the show to make his point through, which is quite the irony somehow, since he is blaming Kyoani and the mangaka to do precisely that.

In the end, it's quite interesting to think about it, the intention or the absence of it. To witness
overthinking and over-interpenetration is interesting too.
Apr 2, 2018 5:49 PM
#3
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Jun 2016
871
Ysad_Ziwezhan said:
Maybe this detective has a handicap and hates seeing someone with handicap being put in the hopeless pitied position ? It might strike a chord.
He himself admitted to not knowing anything about deaf people (AKA people that don't need some white knight defending their image from a ludicrously unimposing danger).
Ysad_Ziwezhan said:
Having said that, I've read somewhere else criticism against Kyoani overdoing the "injured puppy" or the "weak little doll" trope to get some tears. It might be true to some degree.
Furthermore the fact that Nishimiyia doesn't have enough character traits is true. I think so too.
That's somewhat true of Clannad. Kanon and Air probably make use of that too but I've seen neither. One thing common about all of those, is that they're all Key visual novels, which means KyoAni's only at fault for chosing those source materials and adapting them faithfully (although having seen only one of these kind of ruins my argument).

I suppose if hard pressed you could put Tamako Market and Chuunibyou on that list, but you'd have to be really hard pressed.

As for Nishimiya's lack of character traits. I think it's wrong to measure the quality of a character by the number of character traits they have. Ignoring my personal philosophy, in this case the issue is that Nishimiya's character traits aren't obvious. She's dedicated, constantly pushing herself to make friends despite having faced so much hardship in the process. She strives to be independent, but lacks the confidence to take initiative herself. Also, she constantly wears a mask, rarely letting her emotions show (at first at least).

Those are just the ones from the top of my head. Granted, I've seen Koe no Katachi 13 times but the most recent of those times was probably about 2 months ago.
Ysad_Ziwezhan said:
About the intention, Detective is probably wrong, though I don't know the mangaka personally and couldn't say for sure she isn't that cynical person who just took the illness factor to make it even more pitiable. I just doubt it. Bullying is a theme worth writing about. Deafness too. Why not both in one story without ulterior motive ? Bullying is naturally linked to weakness and difference anyway.
Actually, I think you're wrong about that. The manga and the movie are completely different works with different intentions. Everything you said could probably be applied to the anime adaption, but I still feel money was a motivator for the movie. I don't, however, think it was more of a motivator than is to be expected of anime. There's no reason to believe this was made with a greater desire for profit than any other anime and that's a point I really want to emphasize.
Ysad_Ziwezhan said:
Or we could look at this review in an even more twisted way. "Detective" himself is capitalizing on the illness theme of the show to make his point through, which is quite the irony somehow, since he is blaming Kyoani and the mangaka to do precisely that.
That actually sounds a lot more reasonable than it should. He does seem to be abusing deafness as a means of criticizing the movie.
Ysad_Ziwezhan said:
In the end, it's quite interesting to think about it, the intention or the absence of it. To witness overthinking and over-interpenetration is interesting too.
To think about it, it may be interesting, but in a review that people might read hoping to get a sense of whether they'll enjoy the movie, it's quite unwelcome.
Apr 2, 2018 6:06 PM
#4

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Oct 2010
11734
That review is the biggest piece of bullshit I've read in a while and it bugs me that this is held so high as some sort of representative of the otherwise perfectly fine and understandable negativity towards this movie.

It is an issue when you try to represent a collective, in this case deaf people, and tell them that they should be offended at the portrayal of their disability in this movie, when a quick search tells you that deaf people liked this film and their representation in it. If you want to give voice to a collective, never try to tell them how they should feel and if you don't have a point then shut up.

On the other hand, the "injured puppy" thing tells me that this guy doesn't know shit about bullying either.

It's not like the rest of the review is better when he says stuff like this:
"She is the textbook definition of a mary-sue as well as a damsel in distress"
jal90Apr 2, 2018 6:10 PM
Apr 2, 2018 6:13 PM
#5

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May 2015
5397
The only reason it has so many upvotes is because it's the only review out of the 4 that's expressing a negative opinion. Not because it's actually a good review.

Apr 2, 2018 6:15 PM
#6
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Jun 2016
871
jal90 said:
It is an issue when you try to represent a collective, in this case deaf people, and tell them that they should be offended at the portrayal of their disability in this movie, when a quick search tells you that deaf people liked this film and their representation in it. If you want to give voice to a collective, never try to tell them how they should feel and if you don't have a point then shut up.
I actually never considered that angle. I never thought to look up how deaf people view the movie, when criticizing him for assuming deaf people are being hazardously misrepresented.

Thanks for that. It's definitely presumptuous of him to assume deaf people are suffering because of the movie, and probably 10 times more offensive than how much he claims the movie to be.
Apr 2, 2018 6:27 PM
#7
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Jun 2016
871
Kittens-kun said:
The only reason it has so many upvotes is because it's the only review out of the 4 that's expressing a negative opinion. Not because it's actually a good review.
The next highest rated negative review is by this Born2Run and it's somewhat reasonable. It's not accurate, and at times refers the "exploitative" argument, but it's an improvement upon detective's review.

https://myanimelist.net/profile/Born2Run/reviews
Tenderizer79Apr 3, 2018 3:11 AM
Apr 2, 2018 9:14 PM
#8

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Jul 2009
536
I'm going to start this off serious and then we're going to all have a laugh and move on, alright folks?

First off Tenderizer17, you have messaged me multiple times regarding this film and my review. I suspect you have spent a lot of time reading and re-reading my review. I consider this flattery, but it is also a little concerning. I have read your messages and I decided not to respond as I felt we wouldn't reach a very constructive discussion as it appears you simply wanted to poke holes and misinterpret every sentence I wrote to further your own argument. In this light, we will never be able to have a good discussion. We are two opposites in opinion, and while I believe finding some common ground in our outlooks of this film is possible, your borderline obsession with my critique convinces me that is not something you will be able to do.

I will not comment any further after I make this statement and I hope it clears up some things as I have received death threats, threats to delete my account and retire from moderation, and exceptionally slanderous and rude comments because I did not enjoy this film. The irony in the context to this films supposed message is rather amazing. I have also received equally very positive and glowing comments from a lot of friendly people on MAL. Some of those people wrote some kind words - that my review resonated with them, or gave them a different interpretation or understanding of the feeling they had toward this movie. I think that this review is important, albeit polarizing. Yes, it is a sharp criticism of a very popular movie. It is hard for it to be without controversy. Ultimately I think if there's one thing detractors of my review harp on and really, really harp on, it is the first paragraph.

My first paragraph is about how I am not deaf, and how I believe that the movie is capitalizing on disease. I thought it was something worth mentioning because I did not want to alienate anyone who may have sympathized with this movie because they are deaf or would hastily conclude that I did not consider that this movie could be a great film for the deaf. Seeing as deafness is rarely talked about or utilized in media, I think it is great in a way for that reason alone. On a social level, representation of minorities is important and I understand that. This fact does not pardon the execution of the film. I was rather amazed at how shallow the narrative of this story is. It is very basic and very cliche. I say this because there are very few moments in the story where deafness actually matters. As other users and I have discussed, the movie is centrally focused on bullying. So I was rather shocked when they sidelined Nishiyama's deafness and used it instead as pole-vault to further explain motives of a rather generic young adult male.

I have seen a lot of anime. I have not read the manga this is adapted from. I know my limits on willing suspension of disbelief and what I wanted to get at in my first sentence of my review is that this movie is contrived. I will defend my words with this position with this: KyoAni is known for it's "crying genre" of anime and associated media and products. Clannad, Kanon, Angel Beats, Air, Charlotte etc. In all of these works, some of which I even enjoyed, never is the disability or illness that the girls (and they are ALWAYS girls) suffer from is named. This is KyoAni's first instance of this and their most swaggering. The disability is portrayed front and center, with the movie title even being a reference to deafness. You would think that the female character would at least be a little more fleshed out. Why do we have so much internal dialogue from our young male japanese protagonist but none from the far more unique deaf character? Koe no Katachi has everything it needed to be a great work, and maybe the manga is. I don't know, and that's not what my review is about. I wanted to get this portion of the review out of the way quickly as this part lends more to my personal philosophies than it does to the objective parts of the film.

As a final statement, I write all my reviews as factual. I am making an argument and since all reviews on art are of personal opinion I tend to write them as such. I prefer writing in a strong voice, as it usually helps remove confusion from my rather odd rhetoric style. I see in this case that did not come true completely and I have considered re-writing the first two or three lines of it. The message though, would remain the same and my argument would still hold. If there is any personal victory, my fellow detractors, that should be celebrated it is that you have almost made me re-write a line or two of my review so that I do not have to write massive walls of text like this any time soon. Maybe one day you will see such a beautiful thing occur!

While it would be funny to imagine this review is my ironic capitalization on the capitalization of moe or that I have been severely bullied so much it causes PTSD and I must exercise viciously against the morally altruistic userbase of MAL and subject them to my depraved and evil heart I really just wrote this review because I think the movie is bad.

I'm off to go bully more anime girls~~! Enjoy the rest of this thread lol
Apr 2, 2018 9:19 PM
#9
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Jul 2018
564612
Detective said:
I'm going to start this off serious and then we're going to all have a laugh and move on, alright folks?

First off Tenderizer17, you have messaged me multiple times regarding this film and my review. I suspect you have spent a lot of time reading and re-reading my review. I consider this flattery, but it is also a little concerning. I have read your messages and I decided not to respond as I felt we wouldn't reach a very constructive discussion as it appears you simply wanted to poke holes and misinterpret every sentence I wrote to further your own argument. In this light, we will never be able to have a good discussion. We are two opposites in opinion, and while I believe finding some common ground in our outlooks of this film is possible, your borderline obsession with my critique convinces me that is not something you will be able to do.

I will not comment any further after I make this statement and I hope it clears up some things as I have received death threats, threats to delete my account and retire from moderation, and exceptionally slanderous and rude comments because I did not enjoy this film. The irony in the context to this films supposed message is rather amazing. I have also received equally very positive and glowing comments from a lot of friendly people on MAL. Some of those people wrote some kind words - that my review resonated with them, or gave them a different interpretation or understanding of the feeling they had toward this movie. I think that this review is important, albeit polarizing. Yes, it is a sharp criticism of a very popular movie. It is hard for it to be without controversy. Ultimately I think if there's one thing detractors of my review harp on and really, really harp on, it is the first paragraph.

My first paragraph is about how I am not deaf, and how I believe that the movie is capitalizing on disease. I thought it was something worth mentioning because I did not want to alienate anyone who may have sympathized with this movie because they are deaf or would hastily conclude that I did not consider that this movie could be a great film for the deaf. Seeing as deafness is rarely talked about or utilized in media, I think it is great in a way for that reason alone. On a social level, representation of minorities is important and I understand that. This fact does not pardon the execution of the film. I was rather amazed at how shallow the narrative of this story is. It is very basic and very cliche. I say this because there are very few moments in the story where deafness actually matters. As other users and I have discussed, the movie is centrally focused on bullying. So I was rather shocked when they sidelined Nishiyama's deafness and used it instead as pole-vault to further explain motives of a rather generic young adult male.

I have seen a lot of anime. I have not read the manga this is adapted from. I know my limits on willing suspension of disbelief and what I wanted to get at in my first sentence of my review is that this movie is contrived. I will defend my words with this position with this: KyoAni is known for it's "crying genre" of anime and associated media and products. Clannad, Kanon, Angel Beats, Air, Charlotte etc. In all of these works, some of which I even enjoyed, never is the disability or illness that the girls (and they are ALWAYS girls) suffer from is named. This is KyoAni's first instance of this and their most swaggering. The disability is portrayed front and center, with the movie title even being a reference to deafness. You would think that the female character would at least be a little more fleshed out. Why do we have so much internal dialogue from our young male japanese protagonist but none from the far more unique deaf character? Koe no Katachi has everything it needed to be a great work, and maybe the manga is. I don't know, and that's not what my review is about. I wanted to get this portion of the review out of the way quickly as this part lends more to my personal philosophies than it does to the objective parts of the film.

As a final statement, I write all my reviews as factual. I am making an argument and since all reviews on art are of personal opinion I tend to write them as such. I prefer writing in a strong voice, as it usually helps remove confusion from my rather odd rhetoric style. I see in this case that did not come true completely and I have considered re-writing the first two or three lines of it. The message though, would remain the same and my argument would still hold. If there is any personal victory, my fellow detractors, that should be celebrated it is that you have almost made me re-write a line or two of my review so that I do not have to write massive walls of text like this any time soon. Maybe one day you will see such a beautiful thing occur!

While it would be funny to imagine this review is my ironic capitalization on the capitalization of moe or that I have been severely bullied so much it causes PTSD and I must exercise viciously against the morally altruistic userbase of MAL and subject them to my depraved and evil heart I really just wrote this review because I think the movie is bad.

I'm off to go bully more anime girls~~! Enjoy the rest of this thread lol
i actually agree with your review to the fullest extent. i got bored with the movie 1/4 of the way in. the main character trying to open up is absolute bullshit and a sob factor.
Apr 2, 2018 10:25 PM
Offline
Jun 2016
871
@Detective
First and foremost, the response I'm writing now is meant to be directed at your reply, and not your review. I've long since realized you've dealt with a lot regarding this review and I don't want to force you back into a debate which I know from personal experience can be cumbersome and frivolous.


Detective said:
In this light, we will never be able to have a good discussion.
I agree. There's definitely no way we can reach a conclusion either of us will be satisfied with, and I never intended to.

Detective said:
I have received death threats, threats to delete my account and retire from moderation, and exceptionally slanderous and rude comments because I did not enjoy this film
...

I'm starting to sympathize with mass murderers. People need to die, as many as possible and as soon as possible.

I'm embarrassed to be human after reading that.

Detective said:
I see in this case that did not come true completely and I have considered re-writing the first two or three lines of it
The bulk of my frustration actually comes from the reviews reception, rather than the review itself. There may be reviews out there that would anger me more, but none of them are placed in a position to influence people's actions by the community.

All the reviews I write are written for my own sake, not for others, and I believe that's the correct approach. However, the helpful vote system is not functioning properly in relation to your review. This is because of two issues, first is that as a review moderator your profile gets more visits than others, which leads to more people reading your reviews, which leads to the subset that appreciates it being numerically larger without it being in larger proportion. The second is that your review strongly appeals to those who have seen the film and are bitter about its acclaim, but (in my opinion) doesn't help those who have not seen the film. These two factors combined give your review an unfair advantage in relation to others.

I didn't intend for this forum post to be directed at you, your review is your's, and that's fine. The community that regards it so highly, and the system that lets it be regarded so highly, are the subject of my frustration.
Apr 2, 2018 10:43 PM
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Jun 2016
871
@complice
You really don't need a quote for that reply. Just use a mention (@ symbol followed by the users name).
Apr 3, 2018 2:19 AM

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Oct 2010
11734
No matter how strong my issues against the review are, it should be capitalized that recurring to personal insult is low and disgusting and whoever sent you death threats has absolutely no right to belong to this community, and that's the slightest they deserve. I am very sad to read this, @Detective.
Apr 3, 2018 10:04 PM

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Aug 2016
1214
It isn't a big deal man. No point in tearing it apart. I guarantee most of the people that voted it up didn't even read it and saw the score was low so they could use it to express their dislike of the movie further.
Apr 3, 2018 10:27 PM
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Jun 2016
871
JFuji said:
It isn't a big deal man. No point in tearing it apart. I guarantee most of the people that voted it up didn't even read it and saw the score was low so they could use it to express their dislike of the movie further.
You're probably right. I doubt anybody considers MAL reviews to be anything more than useless, and if they do it doesn't affect me.
Apr 5, 2018 6:15 AM

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Apr 2017
2717
Looking to MAL for reviews is a bit like looking to Donald Trump for beauty advice.

It's better to check out RottenTomatoes instead.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/a_silent_voice/
Apr 5, 2018 6:17 AM

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Apr 2016
18617
zodd0 said:
Looking to MAL for reviews is a bit like looking to Donald Trump for beauty advice.

It's better to check out RottenTomatoes instead.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/a_silent_voice/

I think that the quality of MAL user reviews can be easily compared to those from RottenTomatoes.
Apr 5, 2018 6:48 AM
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Jun 2016
871
zodd0 said:
Looking to MAL for reviews is a bit like looking to Donald Trump for beauty advice.

It's better to check out RottenTomatoes instead.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/a_silent_voice/
Wow, the reviews on Rotten Tomato's are actually quite good. I like how they're all really short (with full length options available). It's much better to quickly survey a summary of many smaller opinions then read a lengthy review describing one person's opinion and then a poorly thought out justification of that opinion.

MAL reviews are definitely garbage, not that I ever read them with the intent of figuring out whether I'll like a show. The only MAL review that ever came close to being useful was one for Takagi-san where the criticised how they use the lead guy, Nishikata, as a punching bag. It didn't stop me from watching the show (because letting a MAL review do that will lead to pain), but after watching as much as I did, I can definitely say I agree with that criticism.

Meanwhile even the negative reviews of Koe no Katachi on rotten tomato's I find value in. All the negative reviews of Koe no Katachi on MAL seem to be grasping at straws for criticisms. Same with the ones for Kimi no na Wa (I disagree with both the negative reviews I've read for that movie too). But I actually agree with one of the criticisms that the rotten tomato's reviews give to Koe no Katachi (excess of characters).
Apr 6, 2018 9:01 PM

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Apr 2008
14
I would disagree with criticism to Shouko's character. For starters, it's to as if infer people who are attractive ("moe"?) can't have problems (comparing her to a puppy?). And that her character is bland I don't think I agree with; she's guilt ridden, carrying the weight of what happened in childhood (and in present) on her shoulders. Her only trait being feeding carp doesn't make much sense either, if only because the series is seen through the protagonist's eyes, one who doesn't get to be up-close much with Nishimiya, and throughout the series, constantly laments that he wants to KNOW her more. That's the whole point, he doesn't know her. But WANTS to. If we knew a lot about her it would sorta take away from that immersion IMO.
Apr 6, 2018 9:12 PM
Offline
Jun 2016
871
@osako
I feel like KyoAni has recently been trying to stray away from the "more character traits" = "better character" equation that has been endemic of anime. Her character is tied to how she does things, and why she does things rather than what she does. Of course, this could just be a desperate attempt to justify poor character writing by KyoAni, but I'll let you choose whether it is.

EDIT: In hindsight I'm not sure whether this builds on what you're saying. Allwell.
Apr 9, 2018 9:28 AM

Offline
Apr 2008
14
Tenderizer17 said:
@osako
I feel like KyoAni has recently been trying to stray away from the "more character traits" = "better character" equation that has been endemic of anime. Her character is tied to how she does things, and why she does things rather than what she does. Of course, this could just be a desperate attempt to justify poor character writing by KyoAni, but I'll let you choose whether it is.

EDIT: In hindsight I'm not sure whether this builds on what you're saying. Allwell.


I'm not sure that it does.

But to add to my original comment, another of Nishimiya's hobbies must be gardening. In the film and manga, the gift she gives to Ishida is a gardening accessory!
(there is also a childhood scene she's tending to flowers in the film).
Apr 9, 2018 9:32 AM

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Apr 2008
14
Detective said:
Clannad, Kanon, Angel Beats, Air, Charlotte etc.

Charlotte wasn't Kyoani IIRC. But I can see your point in a "crying" genre.

I'm also not sure I can agree with the points in the original post here (it doesn't seem to hold water in any attempt to combat your review) and I'm sorry you received death threats over a review. That's just twisted.
Apr 9, 2018 9:55 AM

Offline
Oct 2010
11734
Tenderizer17 said:
zodd0 said:
Looking to MAL for reviews is a bit like looking to Donald Trump for beauty advice.

It's better to check out RottenTomatoes instead.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/a_silent_voice/
Wow, the reviews on Rotten Tomato's are actually quite good. I like how they're all really short (with full length options available). It's much better to quickly survey a summary of many smaller opinions then read a lengthy review describing one person's opinion and then a poorly thought out justification of that opinion.

MAL reviews are definitely garbage, not that I ever read them with the intent of figuring out whether I'll like a show. The only MAL review that ever came close to being useful was one for Takagi-san where the criticised how they use the lead guy, Nishikata, as a punching bag. It didn't stop me from watching the show (because letting a MAL review do that will lead to pain), but after watching as much as I did, I can definitely say I agree with that criticism.

Meanwhile even the negative reviews of Koe no Katachi on rotten tomato's I find value in. All the negative reviews of Koe no Katachi on MAL seem to be grasping at straws for criticisms. Same with the ones for Kimi no na Wa (I disagree with both the negative reviews I've read for that movie too). But I actually agree with one of the criticisms that the rotten tomato's reviews give to Koe no Katachi (excess of characters).

Uhm, seriously? Not that I mean bad for RottenTomatoes but I ended up reading Sherilyn Connelly's review from another source... and honestly it is disgusting. It is far worse and far more offensive than anything I've ever read on MAL. The language, the comparisons of the main character with Mel Gibson trying to reach whatever absurd point, the absolutely insane line of thought behind the phrase: "A sequence that is visually coded as rape" which is fucking disturbing if you have seen and remember that specific sequence. The problem of A silent voice is the touchy subject it deals with. Criticizing and hating the movie is okay, but one has to be careful with what they say and this review is not only a pure expression of rage against the main character denying his agency and the very narrative decision of focusing on him, but it crosses the line by imagining sexual and erotic tension in a scene of two kids brawling.
Apr 9, 2018 8:07 PM
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Jun 2016
871
@jal90 OMG you're right. But at least the short summary of their idea presented on rotten tomato's is acceptable under different reasoning.

I guess that's what I get for not doing my research.

After reading the actual review, I must say it bothers me about as much as detective's (I can't precisely measure how my frustration compares at the moment).
Mar 8, 2019 1:12 AM
Offline
Oct 2016
215
Quite the words Detective chose. As a someone who loved the movie, it hurts a bit.

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