Why the villages haven&#039;t any way to deal with fiends?

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Aug 2015

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toshiofreedom said:
They didn't have this technology. When people have PK, a lot of technology is dangerous to them.They didn't have the enough manpower or material resources. At that time, there were no satellites or antennas or anything. There are terrible creatures everywhere...Every village is far away from each other because once the fiend appears, a village is destroyed, and the other villages can not be affected. When the fiend appears, people from other villages can't help.The gun and other weapons have a sense of killing, and the feeling is too strong. They can't hurt other people directly.

I said in my original post that these 2 arguments don't work.
They have false minoshiros, hence access to the knowledge of the past civilizations. Queerats evolved really quickly in 10 years, so humans could also if you wanted to.

Guns have a sense of killing, that's why I suggested elite queerats (they don't have death feedback).
Psychobuster doesn't trigger death feedback, it's clearly said in the anime, so it's safe to assume poisons in general don't really feel like killing.

Mar 19, 2018 9:32 PM

#4

toshiofreedom

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Mar 2018

13

TheAskald said:

toshiofreedom said:
They didn't have this technology. When people have PK, a lot of technology is dangerous to them.They didn't have the enough manpower or material resources. At that time, there were no satellites or antennas or anything. There are terrible creatures everywhere...Every village is far away from each other because once the fiend appears, a village is destroyed, and the other villages can not be affected. When the fiend appears, people from other villages can't help.The gun and other weapons have a sense of killing, and the feeling is too strong. They can't hurt other people directly.

I said in my original post that these 2 arguments don't work.
They have false minoshiros, hence access to the knowledge of the past civilizations. Queerats evolved really quickly in 10 years, so humans could also if you wanted to.

Guns have a sense of killing, that's why I suggested elite queerats (they don't have death feedback).
Psychobuster doesn't trigger death feedback, it's clearly said in the anime, so it's safe to assume poisons in general don't really feel like killing.

Maybe they tried, did the experiment, and then found this would not work， we didn't know.
Psychobuster is not so easy to make....and how to avoid the abuse of this weapon...Human beings are the enemies of human beings
They don't need this evolution. This is meaningless to them. But it makes sense to mice. They don't need to be us. They don't need democracy. They don't need private ownership. They don't need Marx, Lenin. They don't need a TV, a cell phone, a plane. They have chosen what they need and reject what they don't need. A lot of things you don't think can be explained, and a strong explanation can also be said.we are all spectators

Mar 20, 2018 1:46 AM

#5

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318

toshiofreedom said:

TheAskald said:

I said in my original post that these 2 arguments don't work.
They have false minoshiros, hence access to the knowledge of the past civilizations. Queerats evolved really quickly in 10 years, so humans could also if you wanted to.

Guns have a sense of killing, that's why I suggested elite queerats (they don't have death feedback).
Psychobuster doesn't trigger death feedback, it's clearly said in the anime, so it's safe to assume poisons in general don't really feel like killing.

Maybe they tried, did the experiment, and then found this would not work， we didn't know.
Psychobuster is not so easy to make....and how to avoid the abuse of this weapon...Human beings are the enemies of human beings
They don't need this evolution. This is meaningless to them. But it makes sense to mice. They don't need to be us. They don't need democracy. They don't need private ownership. They don't need Marx, Lenin. They don't need a TV, a cell phone, a plane. They have chosen what they need and reject what they don't need. A lot of things you don't think can be explained, and a strong explanation can also be said.we are all spectators

But still.
Fiends are their one and only ennemy and they do nothing about it while they could totally come up with solutions.

Psychobuster is not so easy to make, you say?. So were electricity, advanced medical treatments, conceiving planes, etc. Humans get shit done when facing a problem, and that's not making a poison (while being helped by the knowledge of the past civilization) that would stop them.

Avoiding the abuse of this weapon is really easy. The same way they use copycats: only the head of the villages have the power to use them when needed.

How can you defend that? Arguments pls

Mar 20, 2018 2:11 AM

#6

Brb

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Jun 2015

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A simple answer I could think of would be that creating a weapon with an intention of using it to kill(even if the target is a fiend) will trigger Death Feedback.
Other explanations could be:

They don't want to produce tech that could be used against them

Keeping the balance is more important to them

For anime identifying needs

Mar 20, 2018 12:44 PM

#7

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Brb said:
A simple answer I could think of would be that creating a weapon with an intention of using it to kill(even if the target is a fiend) will trigger Death Feedback.
Other explanations could be:

They don't want to produce tech that could be used against them

Keeping the balance is more important to them

Death feedback happens in the moment of killing, not in the anticipation of the act.

You brought a good point, creating something to kill other humans without triggering death feedback or attack inhibition could lead into apparition of murderers (even if the weapon is kept secret by the head of villages).

I don't know what's better. Having nothing against fiends (1 fiend = at least hundreds/thousands of victims), or risking the apparition of a murderer.
But this risk is very low (the villagers are peaceful af, in their culture harming another human is unthinkable, and I don't see the point of killing another one anyway), and someone using the anti-fiend weapon against others humans would do much less victims probably.

I'm still not quiet satisfied (the "they don't have any way to deal with their only ennemy while they could" is still bugging me) but good answer

4 or 5 Elites queerats with guns per village could work... The fiend stands no chance if its attention is drawn by something else

TheAskaldMar 20, 2018 12:50 PM

May 7, 2019 6:15 AM

#8

evileivind

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Mar 2019

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Yes, it does seem odd that they wouldn't have thought out a good strategy against fiends. But I guess that's why they're overly zealous in striking preemptively, taking out anyone who shows any signs of becoming Fiends.

But, I was thinking that maybe they could have removed the attack inhibition from a small elite force. Perhaps still left the death feedback intact, just in case one of them goes rogue, and there would rarely be a situation with more than one Fiend. So they would essentially sacrifice themselves to take out the Fiend.

Or is it impossible to remove it?

Jun 20, 2019 12:57 AM

#9

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Well, they technically did have a defense against Fiends and Karma Demons. It was the society they had set up that monitored and eliminated any individuals showing potentials to become Fiends/Karma Demons.

I think that they were mainly going in with the "prevent before it happens" mentality. It can definitely be argued that they probably could have come up with a back up plan in the long run, but my interpretation is that their main goal was to prevent Fiends/Karma Demons from developing in the first place. There's not much you can do against someone with telekinetic powers going on a murderous rampage after all, so it would make sense to put all efforts on creating a system designed to prevent these tragedies from developing altogether.

Jun 30, 2019 6:04 AM

#10

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sunsetbridge said:
Well, they technically did have a defense against Fiends and Karma Demons. It was the society they had set up that monitored and eliminated any individuals showing potentials to become Fiends/Karma Demons.

I think that they were mainly going in with the "prevent before it happens" mentality. It can definitely be argued that they probably could have come up with a back up plan in the long run, but my interpretation is that their main goal was to prevent Fiends/Karma Demons from developing in the first place. There's not much you can do against someone with telekinetic powers going on a murderous rampage after all, so it would make sense to put all efforts on creating a system designed to prevent these tragedies from developing altogether.

Why not both? If today we discovered a virus turning people into zombies, of course we would develop a vaccine to prevent the infection from spreading, but we could also have guns if the preventing phase fails somewhere, you know what I mean?

"they probably could have come up with a back up plan in the long run"
Tomiko is 267 years old, if it's not "in the long run", I don't know what is.

"There's not much you can do against someone with telekinetic powers going on a murderous rampage after all"
Yes you can, we saw in the anime that a lethal injection was enough to kill a fiend. Fiends are super vulnerables if they're distracted. I'm not saying killing one is easy, but there are some ways.

Jun 30, 2019 9:07 AM

#11

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TheAskald said:
Humans have false minoshiros, which contain endless knowledge about the past technologies (queerats themself went from bow and arrow to guns in 10 years).

Are you sure about this ?
I think the simplest answer is they just could not make it, psychobuster for example..
We can see that that their world is a rather traditional one..
And also maybe because they have that super power in cantus, they lack motivation to do science and advancing their technology like in modern (ancient for them) world ...

But after all if they had a precise method to kill fiends, we would not have a story in the first place lol ...

"The Slave is the have-not, the oppressed one with nothing to spare.
But because the Slave is in that despairing situation, having nothing, it can kill the Emperor !"

Jun 30, 2019 4:25 PM

#12

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Yes you can, we saw in the anime that a lethal injection was enough to kill a fiend. Fiends are super vulnerables if they're distracted. I'm not saying killing one is easy, but there are some ways.

That was a scenario where the Fiend was tricked, and it was at the cost of both the doctor's life and countless others. I'm assuming the people in power were attempting to prevent a scenario like that from occurring in the first place.

Don't forget that there is also Death Feedback in place which prevents humans from harming other humans, which would make it impossible for someone to harm or kill a Fiend with their Cantus.

The leaders of the human civilization we see in the story wanted to focus all of their efforts on preventing a Fiend from developing in the first place- and, you could argue that it working as intended. You have to remember that the "Fiend" at the end of the story was purposely raised by Squealer and his army for their uprising against the humans.

shikinoutaJun 30, 2019 7:52 PM

Jul 1, 2019 9:31 PM

#13

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Jim_Heart said:

TheAskald said:
Humans have false minoshiros, which contain endless knowledge about the past technologies (queerats themself went from bow and arrow to guns in 10 years).

Are you sure about this ?

Yes, pretty sure. In episode 4, we saw that the false minoshiro has like several petabytes of data, and later in episode 15 we can see the queerats making tremendous progress with this knowledge in very short amount of time

sunsetbridge said:
I'm assuming the people in power were attempting to prevent a scenario like that from occurring in the first place.

Like I said, preventing doesn't exclude coming up with a solution if the preventing thing doesn't work

sunsetbridge said:

Don't forget that there is also Death Feedback in place which prevents humans from harming other humans, which would make it impossible for someone to harm or kill a Fiend with their Cantus.

There are solutions like indirect killing (like the psychobuster), or simply raising elites snipers queerats (that don't have death feedback) that could easily snipe the Fiend. It's just a random idea but there's plenty of way of trying to kill a Fiend for them. It's the biggest threat of their whole civilization but they're not even TRYING.

Jul 1, 2019 11:25 PM

#14

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Like I said, preventing doesn't exclude coming up with a solution if the preventing thing doesn't work

It was working though. They had changed their method of dealing with Fiends since the incident with K that Tomiko told Saki about. The reason why K was able to develop into a Fiend was because the Board hadn't enacted any policies yet to deal with such a potential threat, and it was because of that event that lead to them creating the system we see in the story. The human hierarchy was incredibly overzealous in their application of their plan and were doing everything in their power to prevent another Fiend from developing.

There are solutions like indirect killing (like the psychobuster), or simply raising elites snipers queerats (that don't have death feedback) that could easily snipe the Fiend. It's just a random idea but there's plenty of way of trying to kill a Fiend for them. It's the biggest threat of their whole civilization but they're not even TRYING.

I believe it was implied in the story that even remotely thinking about harming another human being would trigger death feedback symptoms, so taking part in any form of indrect killing would be impossible, as the intent would still be to kill. That being said though, there's clear evidence that Attack Inhibition is not absolute. The doctor who killed K did so through convincing himself that he was just giving him medicine, after all giving someone an injection doesn't *feel* like you're killing them. Saki was also able to recover from her Death Feedback symptoms in the climax by repeatedly convincing herself she was not responsible for the death of Maria's daughter. Why didn't someone just do the same thing during the Fiend's rampage at the end? Coupled with the mass hysteria, stress, fear, etc. due to the Fiend going on its rampage, it can be safe to say that that tactic simply wasn't viable at the time due to various factors involving not only the threat of the Fiend, but the queerat uprising as well.

Regarding not using queerats or something of that nature, I'd assume that were due in part to the humans' arrogance. It's seen many times in the story that the humans consider the queerats to be vastly inferior species and don't even consider them on the same level as they are. It's one of the main reasons why Squealer and his army decided to start an uprising in the first place. It's largely possible that they just outright didn't believe queerats would be beneficial to them in any way, which is a large theme regarding the flaws of humanity the show explored in its philosophy.

shikinoutaJul 1, 2019 11:34 PM

Jul 1, 2019 11:54 PM

#15

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I am not a fan of theory that said that killing indirectly will trigger attack inhibition because they were clearly killing children indirectly using tainted cats ...

"The Slave is the have-not, the oppressed one with nothing to spare.
But because the Slave is in that despairing situation, having nothing, it can kill the Emperor !"

Jul 2, 2019 12:11 AM

#16

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Jim_Heart said:
I am not a fan of theory that said that killing indirectly will trigger attack inhibition because they were clearly killing children indirectly using tainted cats ...

They were purposely bred by the people who created the plan in the first place. While the purpose of the Tainted Cats were to eliminate potential Fiends or Karma Demons, it could be that those who created the Cats adopted the mentality of only breeding the cats, i.e. they created the Cats with the intent of only breeding them, with the objective of using them to kill their prey as an after thought so that the breeders wouldn't be affected by Attack Inhibition or Death Feedback.

Jul 2, 2019 1:09 AM

#17

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sunsetbridge said:

Jim_Heart said:
I am not a fan of theory that said that killing indirectly will trigger attack inhibition because they were clearly killing children indirectly using tainted cats ...

They were purposely bred by the people who created the plan in the first place. While the purpose of the Tainted Cats were to eliminate potential Fiends or Karma Demons, it could be that those who created the Cats adopted the mentality of only breeding the cats, i.e. they created the Cats with the intent of only breeding them, with the objective of using them to kill their prey as an after thought so that the breeders wouldn't be affected by Attack Inhibition or Death Feedback.

I don't think so.. Tainted cats were caged, and the committee released them only when they want to vanish a dangerous children.. The moment they unlock the key should trigger AI if that is the case, moreover they also trick the children they want to kill with lying, giving a chore, etc ...

Jim_HeartJul 2, 2019 1:13 AM

"The Slave is the have-not, the oppressed one with nothing to spare.
But because the Slave is in that despairing situation, having nothing, it can kill the Emperor !"

Jul 2, 2019 1:12 AM

#18

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Jim_Heart said:

sunsetbridge said:

They were purposely bred by the people who created the plan in the first place. While the purpose of the Tainted Cats were to eliminate potential Fiends or Karma Demons, it could be that those who created the Cats adopted the mentality of only breeding the cats, i.e. they created the Cats with the intent of only breeding them, with the objective of using them to kill their prey as an after thought so that the breeders wouldn't be affected by Attack Inhibition or Death Feedback.

I don't think so.. Tainted cats were caged, and the committee released them only when they want to vanish a dangerous children ...

Well, they had to breed them in the first place before caging them.

Jul 2, 2019 1:37 PM

#19

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sunsetbridge said:

Like I said, preventing doesn't exclude coming up with a solution if the preventing thing doesn't work

The human hierarchy was incredibly overzealous in their application of their plan and were doing everything in their power to prevent another Fiend from developing.

Let's give up this part of argument because it's just a endless "They could prevent AND think of a plan b just in case, at the same time / Yeah but the preventing works tho"

sunsetbridge said:

Like I said, preventing doesn't exclude coming up with a solution if the preventing thing doesn't work

I believe it was implied in the story that even remotely thinking about harming another human being would trigger death feedback symptoms, so taking part in any form of indrect killing would be impossible

Their society is entirely based on killing intentionnally children so yeah at this point, you can say that "even remotely thinking about harming another human being" is totally safe. Indirect killing without triggering death feedback is totally possible and it happened several times in the anime: all the times the village send the cats killing a child, and in the last episode when Saki did you know what

sunsetbridge said:

Like I said, preventing doesn't exclude coming up with a solution if the preventing thing doesn't work

Regarding not using queerats or something of that nature, I'd assume that were due in part to the humans' arrogance. It's seen many times in the story that the humans consider the queerats to be vastly inferior species and don't even consider them on the same level as they are. It's one of the main reasons why Squealer and his army decided to start an uprising in the first place. It's largely possible that they just outright didn't believe queerats would be beneficial to them in any way, which is a large theme regarding the flaws of humanity the show explored in its philosophy.

Good point.

Jul 2, 2019 1:47 PM

#20

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Their society is entirely based on killing intentionnally children so yeah at this point, you can say that "even remotely thinking about harming another human being" is totally safe. Indirect killing without triggering death feedback is totally possible and it happened several times in the anime: all the times the village send the cats killing a child, and in the last episode when Saki did you know what

Yes I mentioned that Death Feedback wasn't absolute and that there are exceptions to this in my previous post. I also mentioned why I believe this tactic wasn't used during the queerat uprising in my previous post as well.

Let's give up this part of argument because it's just a endless "They could prevent AND think of a plan b just in case, at the same time / Yeah but the preventing works tho"

I still think this is a valid argument though, and I still stick with my argument regarding this. A large theme of the show's philosophy was the flaws of human nature, and I theorize that this flawed society was a deliberate part of the writing because the story was trying to show that there is no such thing as a perfect society because of the very nature of humanity. The arrogance of humanity, the oppression of the queerats that lead to the uprising, the flawed system to deal with Fiends, etc. Sure, one could say they *could* have done something more than just stick with their overzealous method of prioritizing prevention, but human society isn't perfect and I think that was one of the story's core messages.

Jul 2, 2019 3:17 PM

#21

Auron_

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Quoting my post from the 20th episode discussion thread.

Orhunaa said:

Given that this Fiend occurence is preceded by another one which was a complete atrocity and taken the lives of hundreds, maybe thousands, you'd think the village would create some sort of defense mechanism had history repeated itself. Like I don't know, maybe altering the genome of one (or a group of) highly trusted individual(s) to lessen the effect of death feedback to simply being paralyzed for a period of time. That way they can take on the Fiend/Karma Demon should they manifest without dying in the process and if they were to betray the village they'll be immobilized after killing one person from which point you can let the Copycats do their job.

I'm only in episode 20 so if any of your counter points are after that please put it on spoilers and I'll view it afterwards.

Jul 3, 2019 1:05 PM

#22

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sunsetbridge said:

Their society is entirely based on killing intentionnally children so yeah at this point, you can say that "even remotely thinking about harming another human being" is totally safe. Indirect killing without triggering death feedback is totally possible and it happened several times in the anime: all the times the village send the cats killing a child, and in the last episode when Saki did you know what

Yes I mentioned that Death Feedback wasn't absolute and that there are exceptions to this in my previous post. I also mentioned why I believe this tactic wasn't used during the queerat uprising in my previous post as well.

Let's give up this part of argument because it's just a endless "They could prevent AND think of a plan b just in case, at the same time / Yeah but the preventing works tho"

I still think this is a valid argument though, and I still stick with my argument regarding this. A large theme of the show's philosophy was the flaws of human nature, and I theorize that this flawed society was a deliberate part of the writing because the story was trying to show that there is no such thing as a perfect society because of the very nature of humanity. The arrogance of humanity, the oppression of the queerats that lead to the uprising, the flawed system to deal with Fiends, etc. Sure, one could say they *could* have done something more than just stick with their overzealous method of prioritizing prevention, but human society isn't perfect and I think that was one of the story's core messages.

Dude, fiends are the only threat of their entire civilzation and they don't have a single mechanism of defense if one goes through the net.
Consider your argument as valid if you truly think it is, I won't be able to take that from you, but for me nah. I'm absolutely not trying to be right, I don't care about being right, that's just not convincing for me

Orhunaa said:
Quoting my post from the 20th episode discussion thread.

Orhunaa said:

Given that this Fiend occurence is preceded by another one which was a complete atrocity and taken the lives of hundreds, maybe thousands, you'd think the village would create some sort of defense mechanism had history repeated itself. Like I don't know, maybe altering the genome of one (or a group of) highly trusted individual(s) to lessen the effect of death feedback to simply being paralyzed for a period of time. That way they can take on the Fiend/Karma Demon should they manifest without dying in the process and if they were to betray the village they'll be immobilized after killing one person from which point you can let the Copycats do their job.

I'm only in episode 20 so if any of your counter points are after that please put it on spoilers and I'll view it afterwards.

Yeah for example that could work

TheAskaldJul 3, 2019 1:08 PM

Jul 3, 2019 1:36 PM

#23

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TheAskald said:

sunsetbridge said:

Yes I mentioned that Death Feedback wasn't absolute and that there are exceptions to this in my previous post. I also mentioned why I believe this tactic wasn't used during the queerat uprising in my previous post as well.

I still think this is a valid argument though, and I still stick with my argument regarding this. A large theme of the show's philosophy was the flaws of human nature, and I theorize that this flawed society was a deliberate part of the writing because the story was trying to show that there is no such thing as a perfect society because of the very nature of humanity. The arrogance of humanity, the oppression of the queerats that lead to the uprising, the flawed system to deal with Fiends, etc. Sure, one could say they *could* have done something more than just stick with their overzealous method of prioritizing prevention, but human society isn't perfect and I think that was one of the story's core messages.

Dude, fiends are the only threat of their entire civilzation and they don't have a single mechanism of defense if one goes through the net.
Consider your argument as valid if you truly think it is, I won't be able to take that from you, but for me nah. I'm absolutely not trying to be right, I don't care about being right, that's just not convincing for me

I'm just trying to offer an explanation for this based on what is present in the story. I can see your point about not having more precautions being taken, and I could definitely make that argument if I wanted to, hypothetically.

The point I'm trying to make, though, is that this was intentionally written to be this way, because of the prevalent theme of humanity being flawed by nature in the philosophy that is explored by the story. Is the system set up by the hierarchy flawed? Yes. Is it extremely short sighted as it focuses solely on prevention and not taking into account what would happen after the supposed scenario of a Fiend developing? Yes. But, in my opinion, I see this as an intentional part of the story to show just how flawed the dystopian society within the story is.

That's just my analysis though, you're free to disagree if you want.

Jul 5, 2019 9:06 PM

#24