| Not tryna intervene here nor pick a fight but [quote=NihilisticLoner message=54327616] jal90 said: NihilisticLoner said: The cheapest tactics to make the viewer emotion in anime I've seen are: -Have the characters scream and cry about their feelings, like an autistic kid who's unable to communicate (even though the latter would be FAR more compelling drama) -Melodramatic backstories (*coughs* Angel Beats) -Using little kids (only reason people cried over Nina was because FMAB is so popular) -Having other characters be sad about an underdeveloped character's death, so that the audience will care, because they sympathize with the characters, not the character that actually died. 1) People in real life are much stronger than that, ESPECIALLY the Japanese (a culture taught to control their emotions). Reaching that breaking point takes a lot longer, and only idiots or people with mental disorders, scream in public. It's much easier to get the audience to sympathize with a character screaming and crying about their problems, then a character who just keeps quiet, looks a little sad, talks a little, like the entire cast in House of 5 Leaves which, btw, had only ONE scene of a character crying, and there was still no screaming, or even talking. 2) So? This is fiction. Not reality. The purpose is to be entertaining, not tell a documentary. People in real life go to the bathroom. Why don't we see anime dedicated to that? A lot of people don't have melodramatic backstories. The characters in Angel Beats could've still had tragic, but much more subtle backstories, like struggling with a mental disorder, being poor. But anime ALWAYS takes it to the highest level possible. By putting in rape, murder, child abuse, child rape! Fuck subtletey! anime says. isn't that a bit contradictory? EDIT: I give up trying to make this quoting look organized OT: The purpose of drama is to invoke emotion in the user. If it does that, does it not serve its purpose regardless if it's 'cheap' or not? |
Short_CircutMar 12, 2018 6:41 PM
 'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
| Did you honestly think that Re:Zero EP018 would have been better if it were done the other way around? No, it'll just make the anime even more shittier than it already is. |
| If one wishes to create an emotional moment, they could simply use piano music with various dynamics and speeds at different times to increase the tension of the moment. Most anime that involve combat, or melodrama uses this as a 'cheap' way of making their audience cry. |
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| Reviewers use words like cheap for anything they don't like. Don't take it to heart. |
| Yeah right there is no way a doujin about vomit exists. Good song https://soundcloud.com/yeungkakit33/op4-hekireki-last-alliance Tsumino account is BigMaraIppo Another Good Song Listen to テスト by mukami #np on #SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/mukami/77a Ashita no Joe and Megalo box are disappointing anime. My reviews:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Botan-Chan45/reviews Best Naruto Op: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByCNZxOBVWM&list=RDByCNZxOBVWM&index=1 discord name: Chitoge Kirisaki#9564 https://discord.gg/nGKu6zx my discord server for plebs |
| Debates here be like "I Am verY smARt!!!!!1!! ". @Sonal1988 yea thanks for my daily dose of cancer fam |
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NihilisticLoner said: Cliched and overdramatic as fuck. Angel Beats had a character's backstory be that they were abused by their parents. Insanely cliche and dramatic. Um parental abuse is REAL and it happens consistently all over the world so how is that "cliche" and "overdramatic"? o____O |
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NihilisticLoner said: Chiibi said: Um parental abuse is REAL and it happens consistently all over the world so how is that "cliche" and "overdramatic"? o____O It's really big and dramatic (NOT something subtle like having issues with a mental disorder like ADD) overused to death in fiction as a way to evoke an emotional response from the audience, and it's always used in the same cheap, 1-dimensional way: "My parents abused me" Why? "Because they were drunk/always fighting" News flash: real life is much more complicated than that. Um, no, it's not. I had a friend who was abused by her stepmother for no good reason; just "she's not my kid so I can do what I want to her". News flash: Be careful with how you talk insensitively about things as f*cking delicate as child abuse. And yes, drunk people ARE abusive; that's why another one of my friends does not live with her ex-husband anymore. |
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NihilisticLoner said: Even so, child abusers are still human: they have other sides to them, good sides, they still treat some people with decency, there are still moments when they act nice towards their child they abuse.. That's called being "two-faced". It doesn't make them good people. That "decent" side is a false one. But in fiction, the child abusers are pure, black-hearted, evil beings. I can think of some who aren't. |
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NihilisticLoner said: They may be human but they have hearts of a demon. Many people like abusing their children as stressballs and really only see them as a such. I mean there is such a thing as physopaths.Chiibi said: Um, no, it's not. I had a friend who was abused by her stepmother for no good reason; just "she's not my kid so I can do what I want to her". News flash: Be careful with how you talk insensitively about things as f*cking delicate as child abuse. Yeah, you heard that from your friend: not the actual stepmother. What goes on in her mind? How sympathetic does she actually feel for abusing your friend? Maybe she actually has a reason? Human beings are biased: especially when criticizing other people. They always leave out key details. Even so, child abusers are still human: they have other sides to them, good sides, they still treat some people with decency, there are still moments when they act nice towards their child they abuse. I mean for crying out lout, even Gambino from Berserk, at least, loved his dog. But in fiction, the child abusers are pure, black-hearted, evil beings. |
| Yeah right there is no way a doujin about vomit exists. Good song https://soundcloud.com/yeungkakit33/op4-hekireki-last-alliance Tsumino account is BigMaraIppo Another Good Song Listen to テスト by mukami #np on #SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/mukami/77a Ashita no Joe and Megalo box are disappointing anime. My reviews:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Botan-Chan45/reviews Best Naruto Op: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByCNZxOBVWM&list=RDByCNZxOBVWM&index=1 discord name: Chitoge Kirisaki#9564 https://discord.gg/nGKu6zx my discord server for plebs |
| Also I don't get emotional but non non biyori just makes me feel like it.(Especially when ren chon cried as her friend left.) |
| Yeah right there is no way a doujin about vomit exists. Good song https://soundcloud.com/yeungkakit33/op4-hekireki-last-alliance Tsumino account is BigMaraIppo Another Good Song Listen to テスト by mukami #np on #SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/mukami/77a Ashita no Joe and Megalo box are disappointing anime. My reviews:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Botan-Chan45/reviews Best Naruto Op: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByCNZxOBVWM&list=RDByCNZxOBVWM&index=1 discord name: Chitoge Kirisaki#9564 https://discord.gg/nGKu6zx my discord server for plebs |
Botan-Chan45 said: They may be human but they have hearts of a demon. Many people like abusing their children as stressballs and really only see them as a such. I mean there is such a thing as physopaths. . Exactly. I can understand things like a slap in the face for being disobedient (hell even I got that and my parents are wonderful people and I deserved it lol) But there is NO good reason to LOCK a child in a closet and refuse to FEED her. (and no, she was not overweight) |
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Chiibi said: Who gets locked in a closet?(For the thirty characters)Botan-Chan45 said: They may be human but they have hearts of a demon. Many people like abusing their children as stressballs and really only see them as a such. I mean there is such a thing as physopaths. . Exactly. I can understand things like a slap in the face for being disobedient (hell even I got that and my parents are wonderful people and I deserved it lol) But there is NO good reason to LOCK a child in a closet and refuse to FEED her. (and no, she was not overweight) |
| Yeah right there is no way a doujin about vomit exists. Good song https://soundcloud.com/yeungkakit33/op4-hekireki-last-alliance Tsumino account is BigMaraIppo Another Good Song Listen to テスト by mukami #np on #SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/mukami/77a Ashita no Joe and Megalo box are disappointing anime. My reviews:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Botan-Chan45/reviews Best Naruto Op: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByCNZxOBVWM&list=RDByCNZxOBVWM&index=1 discord name: Chitoge Kirisaki#9564 https://discord.gg/nGKu6zx my discord server for plebs |
Botan-Chan45 said: Chiibi said: Who gets locked in a closet?(For the thirty characters)Exactly. I can understand things like a slap in the face for being disobedient (hell even I got that and my parents are wonderful people and I deserved it lol) But there is NO good reason to LOCK a child in a closet and refuse to FEED her. (and no, she was not overweight) A friend of mine did. :( When she told me this, I got so angry.....I really just wanted to track the abuser down and punch her in the teeth. >:( YAY SOLVE VIOLENCE WITH VIOLENCE. THAT ALWAYS WORKS, RITE. XD |
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| I don't think that using children or animals in Made in Abyss is intentional just to cater heavy emotions to the readers. I find the story unique and captivating, bringing us something very different to look forward to. It's not a cheap tactic for me. |
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| I would prefer to use the phrase "unearned emotional responses from the viewer" than to say the tactics are simply "cheap." In order for the emotional response to have any sort of weight and depth of impact, the character's situation must be developed and explored thoroughly enough to generate audience investment. Upon initial screenings, the audience may feel something for the character but subsequent screenings may elicit reduced emotional investment. In addition, more experienced audiences will be able to identify forced drama and shortcuts on the first screening, reducing engagement. When discussing whether or not a moment of pathos for a character is sufficiently earned in a story, we need to determine if it has a causal link to the motivations of all of the characters involved, a causal link to the overall world and setting, and whether those links sufficiently develop the overall thematic argument of the story. The example of Nina in Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood (and I think the original Fullmetal Alchemist series, if I recall) is not a bad example to debate--was the moment of pathos earned or unearned? I would argue that it was earned, especially since the episode took the time to establish 1) the character dilemma of Nina's father that was a result of 2) the overarching problem of the system that both supports and oppresses/controls state alchemists. Since element #2 is a current flowing throughout the entire series, it is thus part of the overall thematic direction, and therefore advances and further develops the story. However, this is not enough to earn audience pathos. To ask how the episode was paced, how well developed Nina and her father were, and how the ultimate revelation was handled are all important. If I recall correctly, all of these factors were handled better in the original show, making this moment far more effective than in Brotherhood. It has been a long time since I've seen both shows so I'm working off of memory, here, but I remember the original Fullmetal Alchemist's direction, storyboarding, and pacing earned it better than Brotherhood. Allow me to compare this to something like Clannad, for example. I dropped Clannad somewhere around the second story arc (where the one girl burned her parents' research, if I recall), because I suddenly perceived that the show was handling these characters in a rather shallow and manipulative manner. I was immediately disengaged as a result. It has been quite some time since I attempted the series so I don't remember exactly all of the details that led me to this conclusion but I recall that much of it has to do with the overall structure of the show as a whole--arcs focusing on individual girls--and how that is an artifact carried over from adapting the VN into animation. By the way, @Chiibi, I do not disagree with you that abuse is a serious issue. This is why I believe that any author or creator (or creative team) needs to approach this subject with care and not use it as a shortcut to simply make the audience feel pity and sympathy for a character. If it is done in order to be edgy, the end result will actually be disrespectful to real-life suffering caused by abuse. |
Fvlminatvs said: By the way, @Chiibi, I do not disagree with you that abuse is a serious issue. This is why I believe that any author or creator (or creative team) needs to approach this subject with care and not use it as a shortcut to simply make the audience feel pity and sympathy for a character. I don't see any faulty in using it that way....as long as it's not made into a joke or something.... |
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You are certainly no expert on the matter so I suggest you just drop it. But it is normally told through the victim's point of view for a reason. It's normally a backstory; there isn't time to go to the abuser and find out their "other sides". And I don't really get why you WANT to humanize an abuser; it's an unjustified, horrible act of cruelty. You're right that there's no such thing as someone who is 100% "evil"; I am merely pointing out some people's evil behavior outweighs their good behavior, thus we consider them as "bad people". That's my problem with child abuse in every anime ever created: You haven't SEEN "every anime ever created", you said you only saw 300 of them :p Sunday Without God disobeys your "abuse rule" lol |
ChiibiMar 12, 2018 11:10 PM
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| @NihilisticLoner @Chiibi I guess I'm throwing in my two cents. IMO, abusers are disgusting human beings. BUT, they are human beings. Not demons. One big problem with the idea of abuse that most works of fiction don't bother to touch is that often, the abused still love those who abused them to a degree. An abused child might hate the mother/father for what they did, but they still love them for who they are. They have hard time separating the feelings towards the parent's actions with the feelings towards who the parent is. Of course, that's also a problem in abusive relationships. A person might truly love another abusive human being to the point that they don't realize the extent of the abuse. And then there's emotional manipulation as a factor in all that. I agree with Nihil in that abuse is a very multi-faceted problem, and most anime (or works of fiction in general) don't give it the dimension it deserves. |
Lunafleurette said: Debates here be like "I Am verY smARt!!!!!1!! ". @Sonal1988 yea thanks for my daily dose of cancer fam I suppose, this is what you call a pissing match? |
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OfLove111 said: One big problem with the idea of abuse that most works of fiction don't bother to touch is that often, the abused still love those who abused them to a degree. Yes, you will see this A LOT in smut-filled shoujo manga by disgusting human specimens such as Mayu Shinjo and Minami Kanan. Who romanticize it. It's certainly touched upon. As for child to parent....I've seldom seen a child in anime completely hate their REAL parent for abusing them.....because it is their parent. Chrona in Soul Eater is abused all the time by Medusa and it takes a lot for the character to finally turn against her. |
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| @NihilisticLoner not that I want to help but you could of also pointed out that she most likely isn't an expert on the matter either Like yeah she mentioned knowing like 2 people but lol that doesn't make you an expert I felt mentally abused by my stepmom but that doesn't make me an expert on the subject Just like how I have Aspergers but that doesn't make me an expert on the diagnosis |
DeknijffMar 12, 2018 11:31 PM
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NihilisticLoner said: How would you know if I'm an expert on child abuse? Do you know my background? You don't know my actual face, name, age, so how the fuck would you know if I'm an expert on child abuse or not? Hmm? You say you're 17 and from the way you talk, I definitely believe it. lol "There is no time" is the laziest excuse you can possibly defend a story (especially one as lengthy as tv show) from criticism. Have you heard of adding time? Cutting story bits out? Re-arranging them? The story normally has more IMPORTANT things to address though? But doing that is immature and childish. HEY EVERYONE!!! LOCKING UP CHILD RAPISTS AND MURDERERS IS "IMMATURE AND CHILDISH" NOW. How would you know that? Why is the idea of a person who abuses their child, but helps other child, so implaussible? Because it comes off as "insincere". The evil act is that person's "true self". Like I explained, TWO-FACED. Let me ask you this: If you found out a person who was secretly abusing their kid was also a teacher at school, would you just allow them to get away with it? Because teacher="HELPING KIDS!!!! :D" Of f*cking course not. Hyperbole. Every anime I've ever seen. Guess you haven't seen enough variety. |
ChiibiMar 12, 2018 11:32 PM
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Chiibi said: Yes, you will see this A LOT in smut-filled shoujo manga by disgusting human specimens such as Mayu Shinjo and Minami Kanan. Who romanticize it. Okay, okay, okay, hold up here. There's a HUGE difference between something being romanticized and something being realistic. I wasn't talking about romanticized stuff in which the relationship as a whole is treated a positive, I'm talking about works of fiction in which the relationship is treated as a negative, but a huge, messy, horrible, complex, and nuanced negative. Chiibi said: It's certainly touched upon. As for child to parent....I've seldom seen a child in anime completely hate their REAL parent for abusing them.....because it is their parent. Chrona in Soul Eater is abused all the time by Medusa and it takes a lot for the character to finally turn against her. I'll give that Crona is a good example of doing this right (to a degree). My problem is that most shows have an overwhelming sense of "Look at this abusive parent! Look how horrible they are! Aren't they disgusting!?" to the point where, no matter what the character who is being abused thinks of the person, the show itself drowns out their voice. There's no time for nuance when the only parts of the relationship is being shown is the abuse itself. Even if you want to maintain the work of fiction as something from the abused's perspective, a simple moment in which the abuser shows a bit of humanity goes a long way in showing how abusive relationships actually are IRL. @NihilisticLoner Aww, you're sweet. Thanks. Praise me more |
OfDeathandLoveMar 12, 2018 11:33 PM
| @Chiibi I don't like arguing with Loner much myself and I get you don't want people you perceive to be bad to be looked in any positive way at all But like how can't you see you're acting childish here You're saying they're being two faced and the good side is false but like thats silly Its like saying a person is only an asshole because they show no respect towards people they don't like but show respect towards those they do like Its circumstantial and depends on the background of the person. No one is just this one thing and then everything else about them is a lie to the world |
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OfLove111 said: My problem is that most shows have an overwhelming sense of "Look at this abusive parent! Look how horrible they are! Aren't they disgusting!?" to the point where, no matter what the character who is being abused thinks of the person, the show itself drowns out their voice. There's no time for nuance when the only parts of the relationship is being shown is the abuse itself. I don't get why this is a "problem". If a series did that, it feels like a mixed message to the audience: "Hey everyone, child abuse is wrong but if you are nice ONCE in a while, it all balances out!!!" Just..........no. That doesn't work. |
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| I don't think using children or animals to get an emotional response is cheap at all. what is cheap is when a character dies and they really emphasize dead 5ever. And then.... they are back within 30 episodes. ug. no. Dead parent backstories are pretty overused but, as long as they do it right, I am cool with it. |
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
Deknijff said: @Chiibi I don't like arguing with Loner much myself and I get you don't want people you perceive to be bad to be looked in any positive way at all But like how can't you see you're acting childish here There's nothing "childish" about calling child abusers "bad people". You're saying they're being two faced and the good side is false but like thats silly "But like" it isn't. Again, I refer you to the teacher example WHAT would you do in a situation like that? No one is just this one thing and then everything else about them is a lie to the world I said their evil behavior outweighs their good behavior. Charles Manson is one shining example. That's why he was locked up. |
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Chiibi said: So showing a message of child abuse is bad which basically anyone would agree with anyway already is more important than showing the whole picture and truth of the situation?OfLove111 said: I don't get why this is a "problem". If a series did that, it feels like a mixed message to the audience: "Hey everyone, child abuse is wrong but if you are nice ONCE in a while, it all balances out!!!"My problem is that most shows have an overwhelming sense of "Look at this abusive parent! Look how horrible they are! Aren't they disgusting!?" to the point where, no matter what the character who is being abused thinks of the person, the show itself drowns out their voice. There's no time for nuance when the only parts of the relationship is being shown is the abuse itself. Just..........no. That doesn't work. Chiibi said: No thats not childish but saying they have no redeeming qualities or reason for behaviour is kind of childish as you're only trying to make them one thing since you don't seem to want those things to be shown or brought upThere's nothing "childish" about calling child abusers "bad people". Chiibi said: Id allow police to take proper legal action but I wouldn't say she was a bad teacher or something along those lines or say she shouldn't be allowed to teach if now she doesn't get arrested as what she does in her private life has nothing to due with her job and its been shown she can do well at work. "But like" it isn't. Again, I refer you to the teacher example WHAT would you do in a situation like that? Chiibi said: No clue who that is I said their evil behaviour outweighs their good behaviour. Charles Manson is one shining example. That's why he was locked up. but ok yeah you think bad actions speak higher than good actions but that doesn't mean we shouldn't show the whole truth so that we can have a proper judging system |
DeknijffMar 13, 2018 12:04 AM
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Chiibi said: OfLove111 said: My problem is that most shows have an overwhelming sense of "Look at this abusive parent! Look how horrible they are! Aren't they disgusting!?" to the point where, no matter what the character who is being abused thinks of the person, the show itself drowns out their voice. There's no time for nuance when the only parts of the relationship is being shown is the abuse itself. I don't get why this is a "problem". If a series did that, it feels like a mixed message to the audience: "Hey everyone, child abuse is wrong but if you are nice ONCE in a while, it all balances out!!!" Just..........no. That doesn't work. I don't think so. I think it is just portraying them as a more realistic character. The person who raped me was well liked by pretty much all my college friends. He seemed friendly, made good jokes.... but in the end, an opportunistic rapist behind closed doors. Does that negate all the friends he had? Or the fact that he seemed SO NICE that nobody would believe me? Not really.... Just makes it harder. There were some people who believed me, but mostly it was just other people who had had the same issues with him or people who knew how to add up all the women he hurt into a more collective problem... Why do you think the abused often protect their abuser? It is because they are so charismatic, and you really don't want to be betrayed by someone you were so so wrong about.... My mom abandoned me, she was on drugs for a long time. She is now off drugs and is fairly interesting to talk to. She doesn't remember the years that went by without a single call.... she thinks she was someone who tried her best. And maybe she did. Retroactively, I am glad she stayed away from me. I am glad she worked on herself.... It is good I didn't have to see any of that. I do not think my mom is an awful person. I think she is a flawed person.... who had a lot of pain of her own to work out. I find it very sad that when I post captions from Evangelion, she says "yeah I feel like that a lot". |
Energetic-NovaMar 12, 2018 11:58 PM
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
Chiibi said: I don't get why this is a "problem". If a series did that, it feels like a mixed message to the audience: "Hey everyone, child abuse is wrong but if you are nice ONCE in a while, it all balances out!!!" Just..........no. That doesn't work. *headdesk* That wasn't what I was trying to say, either! Abuse is bad. But abuse is nuanced. Abuse is a bad kind of nuanced. Abuse is a nuanced kind of bad. Most anime don't follow that nuance. They only show an un-nuanced kind of bad. THAT is a problem. If someone can't realize that, even if someone's nice 30% of the time and abusive 70% of the time, that it's still abuse, that's a problem. But if abusive relationships in fiction show abuse 100% of the time, then those watching it might rationalize "Oh, well, my boyfriend/mom/dad/whomever isn't that bad, so it's not abuse," then it's adding to the problem, not taking it away. |
OfLove111 said: Chiibi said: I don't get why this is a "problem". If a series did that, it feels like a mixed message to the audience: "Hey everyone, child abuse is wrong but if you are nice ONCE in a while, it all balances out!!!" Just..........no. That doesn't work. *headdesk* That wasn't what I was trying to say, either! Abuse is bad. But abuse is nuanced. Abuse is a bad kind of nuanced. Abuse is a nuanced kind of bad. Most anime don't follow that nuance. They only show an un-nuanced kind of bad. THAT is a problem. If someone can't realize that, even if someone's nice 30% of the time and abusive 70% of the time, that it's still abuse, that's a problem. But if abusive relationships in fiction show abuse 100% of the time, then those watching it might rationalize "Oh, well, my boyfriend/mom/dad/whomever isn't that bad, so it's not abuse," then it's adding to the problem, not taking it away. In real life, the person who is abusive is often very nice when other people are around... they have a very different face they show to other people. I find yes, that in fiction I have found a similar thing... where it is all the time and constant. and a lack of hope that the person will change from the abused. Shinji is honestly perfect. He always seemed to at first seem happy that maybe his dad will change, but then he remembers he will never live up to his standards and he crumbles all on his own with very little effort. Shinji was very neglected. I really loved how in the manga, his foster fam pretty much said rotten stuff about him when they thought he couldn't hear them. But seemed more understanding upfront. |
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
| @OfLove111, @Chiibi, and @Deknijff, I think all three of you are talking past one-another to some degree. I think there is some confusion as to how to read a fictional abuse situation. A mimetic assessment emphasizes realism and accuracy while a more formalist approach looks at the structure of the situation, characterization, and the situation's relation to overall theme. So, what do you emphasize, here--how realistic the situation is presented or how well it functions as part of the narrative? Chiibi, do you mean to say that it doesn't matter if the abuser is fleshed out and given motivations and character make-up that explain their abusive behavior? Or are you saying that the abusive character actually shouldn't be humanized at all? I think everybody needs you to clearly state your position here because that might diffuse an entirely unnecessary argument. NihilisticLoner said: You could've easily just wrote, "When discussing whether or not a moment or pathos for a character is sufficiently earned in a story, we need to determine if it contributes to the story", instead of extending the point, to make it appear more complex than it actually is. Yes, I could have written that but I actually wouldn't have gotten my point across. "Contributes to the story" is vague and imprecise. I chose three phrases that described precisely what I meant. All three techniques contribute to the story, however, they aren't the only techniques that would. The elements of Clannad contributed to the story as well. You're not submitting a college presentation, you're talking to morons like me on the internet, who have the maturity and attention capacity, of teenagers screaming like monkeys, or the pretentious cynical attitude of Hachiman. I appreciate your honesty, as well as your extremely accurate self-assessment. I occasionally need the reminder that it is an utter waste of time to post on MAL, and thankfully, you've provided that to me in spades. Oh, and from now on, since you take such umbrage at how I write, feel free to ignore any and all posts I make here on MAL from now on. Thanks. I appreciate it. |
NihilisticLoner said: How would you know if I'm an expert on child abuse? Do you know my background? You don't know my actual face, name, age, so how the fuck would you know if I'm an expert on child abuse or not? Hmm? Chiibi said: But it is normally told through the victim's point of view for a reason. It's normally a backstory; there isn't time to go to the abuser and find out their "other sides". "There is no time" is the laziest excuse you can possibly defend a story (especially one as lengthy as tv show) from criticism. Have you heard of adding time? Cutting story bits out? Re-arranging them? Chiibi said: And I don't really get why you WANT to humanize an abuser; it's an unjustified, horrible act of cruelty. Because that's real life. Does it fucking suck? Yeah. Do all of us want to demonize child abusers to a point where we decide there's no good will in them? Oh fuck yes. But doing that is immature and childish. Chiibi said: I am merely pointing out [b]some people's evil behavior outweighs their good behavior, thus we consider them as "bad people". How would you know that? Why is the idea of a person who abuses their child, but helps other child, so implaussible? Chiibi said: You haven't SEEN "every anime ever created", you said you only saw 300 of them :p Sunday Without God disobeys your "abuse rule" lol Hyperbole. Every anime I've ever seen. OfLove111 said: I guess I'm throwing in my two cents. 50 Cents. Because you're smarter than most people on MAL, including me. OfLove111 said: One big problem with the idea of abuse that most works of fiction don't bother to touch is that often, the abused still love those who abused them to a degree. An abused child might hate the mother/father for what they did, but they still love them for who they are. They have hard time separating the feelings towards the parent's actions with the feelings towards who the parent is. Of course, that's also a problem in abusive relationships. A person might truly love another abusive human being to the point that they don't realize the extent of the abuse. And then there's emotional manipulation as a factor in all that. I agree with Nihil in that abuse is a very multi-faceted problem, and most anime (or works of fiction in general) don't give it the dimension it deserves. THANK YOU! FINALLY SOMEONE MATURE!! You know, this whole argument about Child abuse reminds me of Erased and why I dislike the show. Kayo's mother was shown as an evil being when she was abusing Kayo throughout the whole show. She had evil grins and all. But then The Mother got caught only to show a backstory about her being abused by her husband and that she sees her husband on Kayo's eyes and leaches out of fear towards Kayo because of that. The issue is that it is all show don't tell, so the fact that she was scared was NEVER SHOWN EVEN IN THE SCENES WHERE KAYO OR THE PROTAGONIST WEREN'T IN AND WHEN THE BACKSTORY WAS REVEALED, SHE (the mother) WAS BONJOURED OUT OF THE SHOW RIGHT AFTER THAT. And the abuse of Kayo was not a backstory so it cannot be just a from the perspective of the character thing. Whenever I see a poorly done Child abuse backstory I see a Victimization 101. The best characters are humanized ones and making a backstory full of them work the best. Like for example: The kid had a hard life because she had a mother who was drug adicted, but the mother Still loves her child and tries to stop using drugs but can't. And the reason why the mother is using drugs is because her beloved husband died. Or what if the Parents just don't know what to do with the child especially if the child has mental handicaps? Abuse doesn't always happen because the parents are horrible people. Abuse can also happen because they are just bad parents. And not humanizing the abuser is like not giving a villain a drive and reason for his actions. In the end, we also love Humanized villains like Chrollo and Meruem from HxH. |
| @Fvlminatvs In a sense, that's fair. I will agree that I tend to take a mimetic (and rhetoric) approach to shows, when sometimes a formalist could work as well. That being said, I still wish more shows in general were realistic about it. The fact that most shows don't is a gaping hole in the world of anime (or even fiction in general, from what I've seen/read). And yeah, I do tend to air on the side of realism with shows I'm passionate about vs shows I'm not (thus rhetoric). |
OfDeathandLoveMar 13, 2018 7:33 AM
blumenbalt said: Authors employ all sorts of thing is their story, sometimes deliberately planned sometimes naturally. How we perceive it depends on whether or not we are hooked by it or invested enough in a series. Just because we perceive something as a natural event within the story doesn't make it any less a plot device, just a well-executed one. Yet the moment we think notice and think of it as a plot device, it immediately feel very contrived (or put it in the words of this thread, a "cheap tactic").I don't agree that it is a 'cheap trick', since, for me it works sometimes or is not effective at all. Our emotions is a very wishy-washy thing. Perhaps someone wasn't in the right mood that day or the story didn't quite catch them. In the case of Made In Abyss, perhaps the viewer have strong emotions towards little kids (be it a strong sense of protection towards kids or an unrelenting denial of their fetish for kids) which ultimately made them lose immersion in the series. |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| It's all about how skilled the writer is with sad moments, so I don't see why the means of making the viewers cry should matter. After all, if it's just a cheap, poorly-used trick, it won't work on most viewers anyway. Made in Abyss is a very popular and well-received series because its story is genuinely tragic, its music is genuinely emotional, and the presentation is just in general very well-executed. The fact that children were the main characters may have helped with that, but I don't think that factor influenced its popularity nearly as much as its stellar first episode did. Clannad is a very popular and well-received series as well, but it still uses what some might consider to be "emotionally manipulative tricks". But it's reached the level of influence it has today because Maeda was just that good at his job. Not to mention the surprising moments of emotional maturity in the later story and the underlying themes that bind the story together. Meanwhile, 18if was a theoretically good idea, as an episodic character study that focuses on the more tragic elements of humanity that generally get overlooked in anime. It was trying to be a heartfelt story, but that just wasn't possible because it wasn't executed with any competence or consistency the majority of the time, especially with regards to the protagonists and the last few episodes. Personally, I believe that there are no -- or at least, very few -- cheap tricks in storytelling, only poorly-executed elements. So complaining that "X is emotionally manipulative"... well, doesn't that statement, by definition, apply to any story that has tugged at your heart strings, and by definition not apply to things that failed to? A better way of phrasing it would be "X tries to tell the viewer that Y story element is sad, but it isn't for Z reason." |
TwilightCelicaMar 13, 2018 7:55 AM
| I wouldn't call necessarily the inclusion of children or animals cheap, although it does drive the message home extra hard. I'd say the real cheap tactics for making viewers emotional is to have characters make stupid choices and when they eventually lead to something sad just have really sad music swell up. |
| @Deknijff the transformation sequence is also cliche though making music also costs money so I don't see a problem with them using the same song if it saves money and they're pleased with the OST they made for the show Sorry if I wasn't clear, my problem with Parasyte's OST isn't the ost in itself, or its repetitiveness. I actually like repetitiveness in many contexts, especially in music (I like drone). What I don't like is how it's used in the most uncreative ways possible. Sad moment? Sad piano track. Battle? HUMPF HUMPF HUMPF HUMPF *headbangs*. And that's about it. It's not as if the writing of Parasyte was subtle and needed some subtext to help the viewer know what he's supposed to feel. |
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NihilisticLoner said: Deknijff said: @NihilisticLoner not that I want to help but you could of also pointed out that she most likely isn't an expert on the matter either Like yeah she mentioned knowing like 2 people but lol that doesn't make you an expert I felt mentally abused by my stepmom but that doesn't make me an expert on the subject Just like how I have Aspergers but that doesn't make me an expert on the diagnosis There's literally no fucking proof that anyone on this site is an expert on child abuse. This is the internet. Never trust anything fact related somebody says on the internet. What proof is there that Chiibi isn't lying about her abused friends, just to get an uperhand in the argument? What proof is there that you're telling the truth about the stuff you just said. I'm not being a dick, I'm being rational. Anyway, back on topic, I'm sick to death of anime using child abuse all the goddamn time. Either explore it in a more nuanced way, or explore something new. If you start stating that, then there's no proof to anything what others say or what a person just said is a lie (about themselves or related to someone they know) then the discussions we have on internet are pretty absurd and now I am just wondering why are you even here? lol... I do get if someone states a FACT don't trust it until you confirm it.. but if you consider someone's just making things up then there's no use of joining/communicating with others in "online communities". And that's not being rational rather it's being irrational... Well whatever, at least you didn't mention that during the argument... |
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| I am late to the party but I will say this everytime. Watch Clannad for that. |
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