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#1
Mar 10, 4:53 AM

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I read a few talks Toriyama had with his editors where he admited that he wrote on a chapter by chapter basis without any consideration for an overarching storyline or theme, and how many important plot points like the numbers of antagonists in the Cell Saga, Cell's different forms, Goku coming back as the MC in the Buu Saga happened because his editors pressured him to do it. If a random author told people he wrote on the fly and changes the plot so easily he would be considered very mediocre or even a bad writer.

Compare to someone like say Eiichiro Oda or Togashi, who have stated they consider how the main story should go in the long run and don't change stuff easily to please editors.

Just want to see what people think, I've been a DB fan for years and plan to buy the latest fighter game to play.
 
#2
Mar 10, 4:55 AM

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You can ask me directly you don't need to start the whole thread about it man. You know i'm always open to discussion about battle shounens.
 
#3
Mar 10, 4:57 AM

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Swagernator said:
You can ask me directly you don't need to start the whole thread about it man. You know i'm always open to discussion about battle shounens.


"Yes, because he's a battle shonen author" is what I expect you to say.
 
#4
Mar 10, 4:57 AM

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Dunno, but I love Dragon Ball, it doesn't matter if he wrote some chapters because his editors gave him some tips, that is their job after all.
 
#5
Mar 10, 5:01 AM

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I wonder how people can answer that .... Unless they are all mangaka as well known as him.
 
#6
Mar 10, 5:06 AM

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SuperRed said:
Swagernator said:
You can ask me directly you don't need to start the whole thread about it man. You know i'm always open to discussion about battle shounens.


"Yes, because he's a battle shonen author" is what I expect you to say.

He's a tsundere for battle shounen
The more you say you hate, the more you love~
Modified by DepravedMagi, Mar 10, 5:10 AM
 
#7
Mar 10, 5:06 AM
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I was/am a dragon ball z fan...
But Akira Toriyama doesn't seem to give a crap about dragon ball z anymore. Man there are so many damn mistakes both in dragon ball z and dragon ball super... Too much inconsistency in dragon ball super..
I have no idea how blind can people get and enjoy that shit...
So yeah I think I agree...
 
#8
Mar 10, 5:15 AM

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DepravedMagi said:
SuperRed said:


"Yes, because he's a battle shonen author" is what I expect you to say.

One Piece isn't probably that great
I came across harshtruth's comments in the latest chapter discussion while browsing forums
His comments are lit asf


Ok, now go watch SuperEyepatchWolf's video on One Piece if you want to see better opinions.

Now stick to the topic at hand.
 
#9
Mar 10, 5:16 AM

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I like Dragon Ball when collecting Dragon Ball itself is still relevant to the story.
 
Mar 10, 5:18 AM

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Absolutely not. There are plenty of things that make the Dragon Ball story interesting. And he sure knows how to develop characters too
 
Mar 10, 5:25 AM

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To be fair, DBZ was not a complete clusterfuck even though Toriyama made on chapter by chapter basis so I have to give him credit for that.
The Cell saga is the best example, the fans really liked Cell, Android 16, 17 and 18 and the time travel with multiverse theory was pretty clear.

I haven't seen DBS though but there are more complaints about that series which makes me bekieve that the DBZ way just doesn't work anymore.

Having a clear path is still better though
 
Mar 10, 5:28 AM

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Wrong writer? That definition is big, whatever, Dragon ball was a luxury.
sǝuılǝpınƃ ɯnɹoɟ & ǝʇıs ǝɥʇ uı pǝuıɟǝp sɐ ,sǝlnɹ ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ǝɥʇ ʍolloɟ ǝsɐǝld˙pǝʌoɯǝɹ ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs
 
Mar 10, 5:34 AM

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It's not the writers' fault editors are greedy shitstains, there's a point where you just can't make the story work the same anymore. Even Death Note suffered.
 
Mar 10, 5:36 AM

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Not as a writer, but decisions. But like, it's not uncommon being forced to do your series cause of the editors.

And also, Togashi has no editors and you see where its at. Then there is Araki being a retard and switch publisher

"I always had a repulsive need to be
something more than human.
I felt very puny as a human. I thought,
'Fuck that. I want to be a superhuman"
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Mar 10, 5:43 AM

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SuperRed said:
Swagernator said:
You can ask me directly you don't need to start the whole thread about it man. You know i'm always open to discussion about battle shounens.


"Yes, because he's a battle shonen author" is what I expect you to say.

I'd pay for watching a sitcom with you two :3
Do you like movies? Are you interested on commenting and discussing them? Check The Cinema Club for some film-related talk.
 
Mar 10, 5:45 AM

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He isn't, and there are more writers who do that. Ever heard of George R.R. Martin? He does the exact same thing and he's not a bad writer either. Both are good writers because they actually make it work.
 
Mar 10, 5:50 AM

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I havem't watch DBS, a quick run-of-the-mill comparison would help.
 
Mar 10, 6:36 AM
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I would not call Akira Toriyama a bad writer. Short-sighted and lazy at worst.
 
Mar 10, 6:51 AM

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-Lofn- said:
Not as a writer, but decisions. But like, it's not uncommon being forced to do your series cause of the editors.

And also, Togashi has no editors and you see where its at. Then there is Araki being a retard and switch publisher

So how is Araki a retard for switching publishers?
Going Seinen gave him more room for being hard a graphic.

And when Togashi had an editor, he was limited to what he was allowed to do and thus ended Yu-yu hakusho in frustration.
If he had an editor for HxH then he had to go on and on with no breaks and we had to see the terrible Chimera ant art all the time due to his bad health.
 
Mar 10, 6:52 AM

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Bourmegar said:
-Lofn- said:
Not as a writer, but decisions. But like, it's not uncommon being forced to do your series cause of the editors.

And also, Togashi has no editors and you see where its at. Then there is Araki being a retard and switch publisher

So how is Araki a retard for switching publishers?
Going Seinen gave him more room for being hard a graphic.

And when Togashi had an editor, he was limited to what he was allowed to do and thus ended Yu-yu hakusho in frustration.
If he had an editor for HxH then he had to go on and on with no breaks and we had to see the terrible Chimera ant art all the time due to his bad health.
I was joking with that. Me and my friends just call him that for fun. Araki is like my god

"I always had a repulsive need to be
something more than human.
I felt very puny as a human. I thought,
'Fuck that. I want to be a superhuman"
-Kira Yoshikage

 
Mar 10, 7:20 AM

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Hm lets see he created one of the most successful mangas that is so wildly popular in both Japan and the west that games and spin offs have continuesly been made severals years after the manga ended.

So what do you think?
 
Mar 10, 11:31 AM

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Dragon ball is actually quite underrated imo. Not in terms of popularity, but in terms of recognition for how good it is
Modified by Zeruk, Mar 10, 11:36 AM
 
Mar 10, 11:38 AM

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I was always under the impression that he was practically forced to continue writing the Dragonball manga because it was making so much money, even though he wanted to complete it, so he stopped caring about it at some point. I don't know if it's got anything to do with being a bad writer, he's just lost passion for the story.
 
Mar 10, 2:46 PM

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Not bad, but it's clearly overrated.
 
Mar 10, 2:51 PM
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He made setting and character relevant for over 30 years, and will continue to be relevant for who knows how long.
 
Mar 10, 3:05 PM

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When you use Jump to discuss quality
 
Mar 10, 4:31 PM

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i only like the original dragonball and that parody of yamcha... other than that, not soo much... he wasn't that different from most writer tbh...

Aquamirror said:
It's not the writers' fault editors are greedy shitstains, there's a point where you just can't make the story work the same anymore. Even Death Note suffered.


mangaka will is mostly very respected.... editor can only suggest, mangaka still the only one who has the rights.... there is a scandal where editor is approving anime adaptation without consulting mangaka.... also definitely even jump will end series if the mangaka demand it...
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on."
 
Mar 10, 4:43 PM

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I remember hearing this last year and was actually impressed. Dragonball Z is not classic work of art (I mean, it's a classic for sure, but there are so many mangs and Anime shows that are better), but for someone who wrote on the fly like that weekly, that speak to his high level of talent.

A lesser writer wouldn't have been able to do that. If he had taken his time, the story would have been great.
 
Mar 10, 5:35 PM

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he's not a writer he's a mangaka, so no
 
Mar 10, 6:41 PM

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I wouldn't say bad, more like functional, but his strengths definitely lie elsewhere (characters & designs & comedy & general creativity) rather than with his writing imo.


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Mar 10, 8:04 PM

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i mean tbf
the fact that he basically writes it on a case by case basis, and within a few days no less
and still can produce decent(not good but not that bad) work is a good testament to at least his skill to bullshit stuff out

also
>togashi plans stuff out
>latest 2 arc generally making the scaling and plot of chimera ant questionable

Even tho there was a faint chance of that miracle happening, you prayed for it to happen. You prayed for and bet on the power of a miracle, one so unlikely it was totally impossible, less likely than finding a bead you've dropped on a sandy beach.
 
Mar 10, 8:11 PM

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I wouldn't say hes bad. maybe average at best? Dragonball is all about action (although it had good comedy in the start) and that doesn't require a complex storyline or anything. I think the story was here to be able to create a path for him to draw awesome action scenes which hes one of the best at.
 
Mar 10, 9:01 PM

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I don’t know if I’d call him a bad writer, but I would consider his method of writing to be clumsy and short-sighted.

I do quite a bit of writing myself and I never go into a project without a long term plan. Naturally, my plans and process change along the way and I think it is healthy to deviate from the plan as you research and gather new information.

However, to write on a chapter-by-chapter basis seems a bit reckless. I feel like if you don’t give your project a long term direction, it is very possible for it to spin in its tracks (and trust me, there were a lot of instances where Dragonball’s narrative spun in its tracks).
 
Mar 10, 11:17 PM

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Writing styles aside end results is what matters, and end result of Toriyama's writing is that DBZ is good for what is is, 90's long running shounen manga/anime. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Mar 10, 11:22 PM

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SuperRed said:
DepravedMagi said:

One Piece isn't probably that great
I came across harshtruth's comments in the latest chapter discussion while browsing forums
His comments are lit asf


Ok, now go watch SuperEyepatchWolf's video on One Piece if you want to see better opinions.

Now stick to the topic at hand.
If we're telling each other what anime videos to watch I'd say watch Plague of Gripes dragonball videos (he has three for now), he's got some really interesting stuff to say including some stuff about how the show/manga is written.
 
Mar 11, 12:11 AM

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I think he's pretty alright. At this point he knows what works and what doesn't, so I suppose I'd cut him some slack. I personally don't think Super is going that well compared to the others though.
 
Mar 11, 12:57 AM
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does not matter since his Dragonball work sure is popular and making them moneys even today
 
Mar 11, 1:34 AM

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Mar 12, 9:56 AM

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Well.............

The man CERTAINLY can't write romance for SHIT. xD

.........though he is not the only shounen writer with that problem.

As for everything else............I don't think he's particularly good. It's rinse, wash, repeat with him. And all of his characters look way too similar.



 
Mar 12, 10:14 AM
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My two cent on the topic. First Akira Toriyama is not a battle shounen writer even dragonball itself started as a gag/parody and he was more known about dr. slump which makes cameos in dragonball series (in dbs vegeta himself even makes a comment about arele being a gag character). Toriyama switched to a battle shounen in the middle of dragonball (I think around piccolo daimaoh arc) and later on dragonball z he made it a total battle shounen but writer himself didn't changed how he was writing it. He is known for his tendency to forget about details and such; most famous one in this matter is he forgot about Lunch a main character from dragonball to add her into dragonball z and when asked about said character he simply said 'oh was there someone like that well it does not matter' also a second one would be if his assistants were not preventing that android 18's hair were going to be a different color.

Anyway my point is he was writing something different and only switch because he was writing for popular opinion. To this date however people like Eiichiro Oda considers him as one of the best in the field and teacher to most with his style.
 
Mar 14, 7:11 AM

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i don't compare A writer with B writers even their works are same genre
every writers has their own styles same,
btw

perhaps he is actually genius yet lazy, but i don't know never meet him in person so i can't tell,


or perhaps his editor didn't like what his doing so it become messed up

i just like his works
 
Mar 14, 7:14 AM

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Everyone has their strong and weak points. Toriyama might not be the greatest manga writer, but he does know how to draw and structure his pages like a pro.
 
Mar 14, 7:40 AM

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Yes, but not the worst. At least it's obvious he likes his own work. I have found much worse than him.
 
Mar 14, 8:23 AM
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I only the read the 42-volume original manga of DB with no intention of going into anything else because I was pretty sure I wouldn't like it. When strictly speaking of the 42-volume original, it definitely doesn't end similarly to the likes of Fariy Tail or Magi. But we have DBS, however, which means it probably has reached that level by now.

Also, I think the series as a whole gets away with stuff that other people won't hesitate to slander other battle Shounen stuff for doing (like making a vast majority of the starting cast worthless later on, or everyone's abilities being just stat variations of martial arts and energy blasts).
 
Mar 14, 8:33 AM
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I think Toriyama isn't a bad writer per say. I still think many of his ideas and movement work in his story. I think what he did was make a solid battle manga and it doesn't have much depth or themes or anything to get attached to in the long run like Togashi or Oda has in their work.

I'd be more interested in if he had a story to tell that has some brilliance behind it but the man has been doing this for decades and can't imagine he has another sense of writing style in him.



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Apr 10, 11:22 PM
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Its kinda clear when u see the end of the original dragon ball show and compare that arc to buu saga. First it be a cool throw back and secondly it basically going around circles and Vegeta and Goku fight 1 last time.

Buu Saga was entirely toriyama control i'm pretty sure, they was no editors involved so it make sense why it became so messy that arc. If Vegeta beated Buu i think i be fine with that tbh, just makes sense as dbz was more about gohan, piccolo and vegeta. Goku arc ended a long time ago in the original series and Frieza was his evolution.

Toriyama is a fantastic artist, he designs some of the greatest stuff in anime and games like chrono trigger and original dragon quest.

toriyama as an author showcases the problem of no long term planning. limiting his scope and his world so enemies have to be stronger for ridiculous reasons. Even when super could have fixed alot of dbz issues it seemed like it doubled down instead.
 
Apr 11, 2:35 AM

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SuperRed said:
If a random author told people he wrote on the fly and changes the plot so easily he would be considered very mediocre or even a bad writer.


I don't think this should be how you decide if a writer is good or not.
 
Apr 11, 2:39 AM

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Well there are some plot holes and just let's say below average writing in DBZ but DB super pretty much consists of nothing else so yea I somewhat agree but if he really just wrote the story without planning it's kinda impressive that it still all works out that good (at least in DBZ).
 
Apr 11, 2:39 AM

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Anyone having doubts? Most of his works are plotless hilarious comedy. It not like the dude decided to create cringe battle shonens, it just happened somehow. I doubt he ever asked for this.

xShinigami3125 said:
Well there are some plot holes and just let's say below average writing in DBZ but DB super pretty much consists of nothing else so yea I somewhat agree but if he really just wrote the story without planning it's kinda impressive that it still all works out that good (at least in DBZ).

Are you saying Dragon Ball EZ's plot is better than DB's plot? (^%
There's literally no plot in Dragon Ball Z. It's all split into 4 huge-ass boring arcs about bad guys and fights.

Snappynator said:
Hm lets see he created one of the most successful mangas that is so wildly popular in both Japan and the west that games and spin offs have continuesly been made severals years after the manga ended.

So what do you think?

I think Harry Potter was as popular and it's clearly been written by a monkey (you can insert any other example like the never ending Fast and Furious serie if you actually like Harry Potter), so clearly big success =/= good plot.
Modified by Clebardman, Apr 11, 2:45 AM
 
Apr 11, 2:41 AM
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Well. Look at Super, it is garbage. So of course it is. DB and Z were amazing though.
 
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