New
Mar 1, 2018 2:56 AM
#101
Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. |
The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows. |
Mar 1, 2018 3:25 AM
#102
My first anime was "Another". While it was a pretty decent show back then and lots of people recommend it to, it still didn't hook me into the anime world. A year or two later I started watching Attack on Titan and, even though I didn't actually like it, I still had a great time with the first season and started watching more and more. I started with generic shows, such as Death Note, Mirai Nikki, Tokyo Ghoul, Hetalia, SAO, Highschool DxD, Steins Gate, Yuri on Ice and many more. Ah and Boku no pico, how could I forget. I watched all of these in one or two months I think. And most of them are classified as "trash shows". I tried getting a friend of mine into anime by showing him Jojo's Bizarre Adventures, and while he enjoyed that, he doesn't plan to watch other anime. Needless to say, JJBA is better than 99% of the anime I started with, yet it didn't hook him that much and maybe it wouldn't have hooked me if I hadn't watched my fair portion of shounen anime before. The thing is that these "trashy" shows are a very good starting point, since they are more normie-friendly than your usual hardcore fan thingies. They have enough anime appeal to hook new fans, but they are still pretty grounded, so that they don't seem too alien for the newcomers. |
Mar 1, 2018 3:26 AM
#103
StarSwoardsman said: That's just YOUR opinion. It's just mine too. But, don't try to pass of what you are saying as fact. Too many people get all up in arms on this board. When did I try to pass it as a fact? I would never do that, my opinion is way more valid than a "fact" bro. |
Mar 1, 2018 4:24 AM
#104
Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. |
Mar 1, 2018 7:08 AM
#105
Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. |
GreenClockMar 1, 2018 7:25 AM
The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows. |
Mar 1, 2018 6:23 PM
#106
I know some elitist in this thread is gonna say something like "I don't ' like' anime. Most of it is shit." Anyways, nice thread, OP. It is very useful to me. |
Mar 2, 2018 4:03 AM
#107
I wouldn't recommend Cowboy Bebop to someone to get them into anime, even if it is mainstream. I think it'll give them the wrong idea about anime and think that all anime are episodic and no different than Western cartoons. I'd definitely recommend something with an overarching story instead. |
Mar 6, 2018 6:39 AM
#108
Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). |
Mar 7, 2018 3:26 AM
#109
Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. |
The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows. |
Mar 7, 2018 8:23 AM
#110
Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? |
BrbMar 7, 2018 8:29 AM
Mar 15, 2018 4:19 AM
#111
Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. |
The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows. |
Mar 15, 2018 5:45 AM
#112
Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? |
Mar 15, 2018 1:54 PM
#113
Brb said: 7:Ran and Conan were childhood friends who spent alot of time with each other thats why they loved each other. Christina loved historia for having the same past?lol what. Explain Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? 6: They're not technical genuines doesn't mean that they have to be idiots and tell eren infront of the squad that they're titans. Couldn't have they lied to eren saying we have something private to tell you if he refuses they'll probably know that he doesn't trust them and they could just forcefully take him away. I already explained how that's not a desu ex machina. I'm not gonna repeat myself. You ignored many of my points about AOT because you know the show is trash. 5: How about you stop lying and actually try to give good points? 4: Dude lol what? If a show doesn't have plot points then how is it even a show? That's like criticizing Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood for having Al and Ed's father leave. 3: You said in one of the quotes that you'll put an objective rating and explain how you rate your anime then if you're saying that you don't objectively rate things. (Too lazy to quote just go up and you'll find it) I haven't really watched the new conan episodes so I really can't tell if that's true or not but if you're saying that barely anything was explained in the whole show then that's a lie because they explained alot of stuff ex: How ran met shu , and Conan's and Ran's relationship. Ran and the kids learn the importance of life and the importance of things and develop throughout the story from being clueless kids to people who know what a life is worth. So, you're saying if a character has a bad life then the show is bad? That makes 0 sense. 2: He was that desperate for money he thought he could've won if he cheated the system. Selling his kidneys and eyes would probably only repay the debt he owns for the game owners company. It showed the important of human life and how humans will do anything for money. He was forced because of his circumstances. How is it bad? You're just being subjective now. If you're gonna complain about the physics then explain how the physics were bad. 3:She was a psychology damaged thats why she did what she did. The mother knew turning herself in because if she killed someone else she would have had a harsher sentence. Murdering someone and putting him in the bag would be hard since someone is bound to check the garbage, if he threw him in the river then someone is gonna find them depending on where he threw him. In order to talk about if he confessed his murder will his sentence be easier we need need to talk about the laws. |
The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows. |
Mar 15, 2018 6:24 PM
#114
oh gosh are you two still going at this |
Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Mar 16, 2018 6:20 AM
#115
Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 7:Ran and Conan were childhood friends who spent alot of time with each other thats why they loved each other. Christina loved historia for having the same past?lol what. Explain Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? 6: They're not technical genuines doesn't mean that they have to be idiots and tell eren infront of the squad that they're titans. Couldn't have they lied to eren saying we have something private to tell you if he refuses they'll probably know that he doesn't trust them and they could just forcefully take him away. I already explained how that's not a desu ex machina. I'm not gonna repeat myself. You ignored many of my points about AOT because you know the show is trash. 5: How about you stop lying and actually try to give good points? 4: Dude lol what? If a show doesn't have plot points then how is it even a show? That's like criticizing Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood for having Al and Ed's father leave. 3: You said in one of the quotes that you'll put an objective rating and explain how you rate your anime then if you're saying that you don't objectively rate things. (Too lazy to quote just go up and you'll find it) I haven't really watched the new conan episodes so I really can't tell if that's true or not but if you're saying that barely anything was explained in the whole show then that's a lie because they explained alot of stuff ex: How ran met shu , and Conan's and Ran's relationship. Ran and the kids learn the importance of life and the importance of things and develop throughout the story from being clueless kids to people who know what a life is worth. So, you're saying if a character has a bad life then the show is bad? That makes 0 sense. 2: He was that desperate for money he thought he could've won if he cheated the system. Selling his kidneys and eyes would probably only repay the debt he owns for the game owners company. It showed the important of human life and how humans will do anything for money. He was forced because of his circumstances. How is it bad? You're just being subjective now. If you're gonna complain about the physics then explain how the physics were bad. 3:She was a psychology damaged thats why she did what she did. The mother knew turning herself in because if she killed someone else she would have had a harsher sentence. Murdering someone and putting him in the bag would be hard since someone is bound to check the garbage, if he threw him in the river then someone is gonna find them depending on where he threw him. In order to talk about if he confessed his murder will his sentence be easier we need need to talk about the laws. 7. Conan and Ran are acceptable but Ymir loving Crista is not because Conan and Ran are childhood friends? What? That's garbage logic, if that happens in the real world then a vast number of people wouldn't be married. And sharing something in common isn't a believable reason for love? Do you even know what garbage you're writing? 6. That loses them the surprise factor, they only managed to get far because everyone was too stunned by the sudden event. Also, looking back, it was Ryner who said it, and even Bertholt was surprised that he did it, plus Reiner doing things spontaneously has precedence, the first attack on the wall was also him spontaneously doing stuff. 5. http://darkerthanblack.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dolls It's written there at the first line. There are instances that dolls show emotion or action, but that's a plot flaw, because the instances that dolls on't even respond to pain counter proves the "dolls hide their emotion" train of thought and that they are killed with no response for self preservation (a base instinct). Contractors not having emotions are also addressed as well in the show with two instances. Havoc, who lost her contractor powers gained a sense of morality after the fact and she basically said she didn't want to go back to being a remorseless monster. The other protagonist of DtB2 is another example. She loses her emotions whenever she enters contractor mode. That basically says that there is a fundamental difference between normal humans and contractors which the show breaks willy nilly. 4. I addressed that at a previous point. Euphy is a purity sue who the creators decided would be so kind and good that the only way to remove her is to make Lelouch do something so completely out of character. So basically yeah, she's designed as a poorly thought of plot point. 3. Can't back your own words? Typical garbage response. And your idea for Development is for Ran to learn about morality? That's not development, that's practically a baseline for any sane individual. No, I'm saying that Ran and co has practically very little development compared to the length of the show, or heck even the length of the key episodes. 2. So this is the flow of events: the guy is invited to a once in a lifetime chance to gain money (let's assume he's that fucking dumb. Besides, he's poor anyway, so that can be let slide) Then he goes on a cruise, offered money for 10% interest every ten minutes (ok anybody with half a brain would know this is some fucked up syndicate shit). 10% per 10 minutes is a shitload high interest and wouldn't even float on any situation. He takes it because he's that fucking dumb, finds out the game is rock paper scissors. Wait, this is even dumber, the debt thing and rock paper scissors guarantees that at least 50% of the participants go into debt. Add the interest thing and that there's a chance that people could win multiple times guarantees even more than 50% will go to debt. He goes to debt. Typical. The n he finds out he'll be solved to slavery. This is in a whole new level of shittery, the syndicate shit, at least you can pay the debt but being turned to a slave. That's fucked up on a new level, this isn't some random syndicate shit. So he goes on a boohoo this is a mistake shit. He then gets saved by some random act of kindness Then his next thought of action is to join again next time? To a game that he knows has an astronomically low chance of him winning? Where he knows he'll be sold as a slave for losing. Not even the dumbest person would think that that's a smart move. 1. Ok this is the biggest garbage you spouted yet. She had Conan stuck and could've killed him any time she desires, and her being "psychologically damaged" means that the chances she would've done it would supposedly be higher. Murdering someone and putting them in a body is hard? Conan is basically 10 or so in the show. He's not a fucking overweight man, and throwing said bag into the garbage is so stupid that I'm surprised anyone would think that that would be a sensible course of action in a detective show. She lives in a mansion where she managed to keep her son's existence from the world for almost 15 years. She could've just dumped the body in another basement, pour cement on the body and be done with it. And murder is murder. Confessing to a heinous crime would lower your sentence? That's capital punishment in Japan with life sentence or death penalty, which would make said confession moot. |
Mar 16, 2018 1:18 PM
#116
Brb said: 7: Because falling enlove because you were childhood friends that spend alot of time makes sense. Ymir loving Christina because of her past doesn't make sense. Simple.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? 6: They're not technical genuines doesn't mean that they have to be idiots and tell eren infront of the squad that they're titans. Couldn't have they lied to eren saying we have something private to tell you if he refuses they'll probably know that he doesn't trust them and they could just forcefully take him away. I already explained how that's not a desu ex machina. I'm not gonna repeat myself. You ignored many of my points about AOT because you know the show is trash. 5: How about you stop lying and actually try to give good points? 4: Dude lol what? If a show doesn't have plot points then how is it even a show? That's like criticizing Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood for having Al and Ed's father leave. 3: You said in one of the quotes that you'll put an objective rating and explain how you rate your anime then if you're saying that you don't objectively rate things. (Too lazy to quote just go up and you'll find it) I haven't really watched the new conan episodes so I really can't tell if that's true or not but if you're saying that barely anything was explained in the whole show then that's a lie because they explained alot of stuff ex: How ran met shu , and Conan's and Ran's relationship. Ran and the kids learn the importance of life and the importance of things and develop throughout the story from being clueless kids to people who know what a life is worth. So, you're saying if a character has a bad life then the show is bad? That makes 0 sense. 2: He was that desperate for money he thought he could've won if he cheated the system. Selling his kidneys and eyes would probably only repay the debt he owns for the game owners company. It showed the important of human life and how humans will do anything for money. He was forced because of his circumstances. How is it bad? You're just being subjective now. If you're gonna complain about the physics then explain how the physics were bad. 3:She was a psychology damaged thats why she did what she did. The mother knew turning herself in because if she killed someone else she would have had a harsher sentence. Murdering someone and putting him in the bag would be hard since someone is bound to check the garbage, if he threw him in the river then someone is gonna find them depending on where he threw him. In order to talk about if he confessed his murder will his sentence be easier we need need to talk about the laws. 7. Conan and Ran are acceptable but Ymir loving Crista is not because Conan and Ran are childhood friends? What? That's garbage logic, if that happens in the real world then a vast number of people wouldn't be married. And sharing something in common isn't a believable reason for love? Do you even know what garbage you're writing? 6. That loses them the surprise factor, they only managed to get far because everyone was too stunned by the sudden event. Also, looking back, it was Ryner who said it, and even Bertholt was surprised that he did it, plus Reiner doing things spontaneously has precedence, the first attack on the wall was also him spontaneously doing stuff. 5. http://darkerthanblack.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dolls It's written there at the first line. There are instances that dolls show emotion or action, but that's a plot flaw, because the instances that dolls on't even respond to pain counter proves the "dolls hide their emotion" train of thought and that they are killed with no response for self preservation (a base instinct). Contractors not having emotions are also addressed as well in the show with two instances. Havoc, who lost her contractor powers gained a sense of morality after the fact and she basically said she didn't want to go back to being a remorseless monster. The other protagonist of DtB2 is another example. She loses her emotions whenever she enters contractor mode. That basically says that there is a fundamental difference between normal humans and contractors which the show breaks willy nilly. 4. I addressed that at a previous point. Euphy is a purity sue who the creators decided would be so kind and good that the only way to remove her is to make Lelouch do something so completely out of character. So basically yeah, she's designed as a poorly thought of plot point. 3. Can't back your own words? Typical garbage response. And your idea for Development is for Ran to learn about morality? That's not development, that's practically a baseline for any sane individual. No, I'm saying that Ran and co has practically very little development compared to the length of the show, or heck even the length of the key episodes. 2. So this is the flow of events: the guy is invited to a once in a lifetime chance to gain money (let's assume he's that fucking dumb. Besides, he's poor anyway, so that can be let slide) Then he goes on a cruise, offered money for 10% interest every ten minutes (ok anybody with half a brain would know this is some fucked up syndicate shit). 10% per 10 minutes is a shitload high interest and wouldn't even float on any situation. He takes it because he's that fucking dumb, finds out the game is rock paper scissors. Wait, this is even dumber, the debt thing and rock paper scissors guarantees that at least 50% of the participants go into debt. Add the interest thing and that there's a chance that people could win multiple times guarantees even more than 50% will go to debt. He goes to debt. Typical. The n he finds out he'll be solved to slavery. This is in a whole new level of shittery, the syndicate shit, at least you can pay the debt but being turned to a slave. That's fucked up on a new level, this isn't some random syndicate shit. So he goes on a boohoo this is a mistake shit. He then gets saved by some random act of kindness Then his next thought of action is to join again next time? To a game that he knows has an astronomically low chance of him winning? Where he knows he'll be sold as a slave for losing. Not even the dumbest person would think that that's a smart move. 1. Ok this is the biggest garbage you spouted yet. She had Conan stuck and could've killed him any time she desires, and her being "psychologically damaged" means that the chances she would've done it would supposedly be higher. Murdering someone and putting them in a body is hard? Conan is basically 10 or so in the show. He's not a fucking overweight man, and throwing said bag into the garbage is so stupid that I'm surprised anyone would think that that would be a sensible course of action in a detective show. She lives in a mansion where she managed to keep her son's existence from the world for almost 15 years. She could've just dumped the body in another basement, pour cement on the body and be done with it. And murder is murder. Confessing to a heinous crime would lower your sentence? That's capital punishment in Japan with life sentence or death penalty, which would make said confession moot. 6: Eren was already told that Berthlod and Riner were titans. Why would they be surprised? They already have all the evidence they need. They could have kidnapped them while they were sleeping or drugged them. 7: 8: No just morality they're relationship developed they trusted each other more and they love each other more. I already said that other characters developed aswell ex: Shu , The FBI agent and so on. It's not the show's fault that you're ignoring these cons. 9: He was that desperate I already explained this. 10: Psychology damage isn't supposed to make sense humans do illogical actions when they're psychologically damaged. Do you think the police won't look for Conan lol? They'll if Ran files a missing report and they'll investigate the lady since conan was last seen with her. Yeah because no one knew about her son. The police won't look for someone they don't they exists.https://www.quora.com/How-lenient-is-the-Japanese-criminal-law-murder-for-example |
The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows. |
Mar 16, 2018 1:27 PM
#117
Chiibi said: Yeah that was a kinda of a douchebag thing to say. I'm sorry. Those both shows are still objectively trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest is more pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. It's fine if you don't like the anime but could you not imply the fans of them are idiots? Rude? |
The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows. |
Mar 16, 2018 1:40 PM
#118
There's basically no real answer to this, just lots of angry people on both sides typing into their keyboards and arguing. I feel like if someone likes anime, then they like it and if there's somebody who doesn't, then they don't. Not saying there's anything wrong with trying to get someone who doesn't KNOW about anime into it, just saying there are lots of people who don't like anime. Also, I don't see anything wrong with wanting to get someone into specific anime, because if you find something that you like then there's nothing bad about trying to show that to someone else, hoping they'll like it. Although similar to my earlier point, I don't believe that if someone truly doesn't like something that you should try to get them to like it. |
Mar 16, 2018 1:41 PM
#119
Brb said: Hahaha I'm not even gonna read through all of this I just can see by how many quotes there are that it's complete angry bullshitBlack_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? |
Mar 16, 2018 1:42 PM
#120
hiyoon said: StarSwoardsman said: mihyon said: StarSwoardsman said: Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Anime fan doesn't mean someone who gives every single show a good rating.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I only like good anime. I don't rate everything a 8/10Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yes I enjoy good shows like Darker than Black and Hunter x Hunter. If I only wanted to hate anime I would have gave everything in my list a 1/10HitaYuutsu said: Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest is more pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. Your mean score is 3.66 in a total amount of 307 anime, are you sure you enjoy watching anime at all? I think he or she only wants to hate on Anime. That's like only two shows. You gave Steins Gate, a highly regarded show a five and Death Note, another highly regarded show a six. ' I think that you like some Anime, but you don't actually like Anime. Otherwise the majority of your list wouldn't be shows with scores of three, four and five. LOL okay. Like I said, you like SOME Anime, but clearly you are not an Anime fan. No. But they wouldn't dislike 90% of the shows that they watch. You don't know how they calculated their rating on anime. They could have enjoyed the anime and rated it low because it lacked in certain parts. Nah that makes no sense. I'll give you example. I enjoyed SAO. But, I didn't think that the writing was good and I am stickler for writing. But, my enjoyment of the series plus the music, animation, some of the characters and certain moments was enough for me to give it a seven. If you rate something low, you don't like it. Like I gave Soul Eater a six because I think it's mediocre. I like the design, the fights and the characters outside of Blackstar. But, I can't say that I really enjoyed the show. No one rates a show that they enjoyed a six or below. That makes no sense. MAL's rating is by numbers and its meaning. 4 being bad, and 5 being average - although I know I don't take those scores with my rating, some people may use these numbers as guidelines for their opinions. An example would be giving an anime a score of 5, meaning, that anime is average: nothing amazing, just ok. Yes, you could have enjoyed an average anime, but it does not mean you disliked it. I'm not justifying this user rating all his anime with 3 & 4, but everyone should be entitled to their opinion. He can be an anime fan and rate low for fun. In the end, we don't know how he calculated his score. Lmao i love people that go out of their way to make some retarded grading sistem when the MAL one is perfectly fine lol. I find the idea completly stupid and pointless but whatever. |
The beauty of humans is that they say one thing then do another, but at the same time that can also be their ugliest side. |
Mar 16, 2018 1:47 PM
#121
I think it's pretty dumb to introduce someone to the likes of Eva, Madoka, Akira, or even Lain. I think those series have preconceptions for you with prior anime or more sophisticated thinking needs before tackling them. But I don't think I'd introduce someone to the anime I started out with, I mean Naruto has huge flaws and though it may be good introduction because it's so easy to attach and finish. I think it's the equivalent of introducing someone to lets say an original Gundam series that probably had many kinks that later introductory points would fix and learn from. |
Mar 16, 2018 4:25 PM
#122
RotatingDemon said: Brb said: Hahaha I'm not even gonna read through all of this I just can see by how many quotes there are that it's complete angry bullshitBlack_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? Not really, i read through most of it and the only one spouting bullshit is the intelligent Black Flower dude there. |
The beauty of humans is that they say one thing then do another, but at the same time that can also be their ugliest side. |
Mar 16, 2018 8:27 PM
#123
I clicked "show spoiler" and the insane quote nesting made me laugh for real just now. It's like you've built a step pyramid as a shrine to arguing about anime. |
GlennMagusHarveyMar 16, 2018 8:30 PM
Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Mar 17, 2018 7:18 AM
#124
AstZero said: oh thanks then I didn't want to have to read it :)RotatingDemon said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? Not really, i read through most of it and the only one spouting bullshit is the intelligent Black Flower dude there. |
Mar 17, 2018 4:29 PM
#125
StarSwoardsman said: mihyon said: StarSwoardsman said: Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Anime fan doesn't mean someone who gives every single show a good rating.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I only like good anime. I don't rate everything a 8/10Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yes I enjoy good shows like Darker than Black and Hunter x Hunter. If I only wanted to hate anime I would have gave everything in my list a 1/10HitaYuutsu said: Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest is more pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. Your mean score is 3.66 in a total amount of 307 anime, are you sure you enjoy watching anime at all? I think he or she only wants to hate on Anime. That's like only two shows. You gave Steins Gate, a highly regarded show a five and Death Note, another highly regarded show a six. ' I think that you like some Anime, but you don't actually like Anime. Otherwise the majority of your list wouldn't be shows with scores of three, four and five. LOL okay. Like I said, you like SOME Anime, but clearly you are not an Anime fan. No. But they wouldn't dislike 90% of the shows that they watch. You don't know how they calculated their rating on anime. They could have enjoyed the anime and rated it low because it lacked in certain parts. Nah that makes no sense. I'll give you example. I enjoyed SAO. But, I didn't think that the writing was good and I am stickler for writing. But, my enjoyment of the series plus the music, animation, some of the characters and certain moments was enough for me to give it a seven. If you rate something low, you don't like it. Like I gave Soul Eater a six because I think it's mediocre. I like the design, the fights and the characters outside of Blackstar. But, I can't say that I really enjoyed the show. No one rates a show that they enjoyed a six or below. That makes no sense. Something not making sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense in general. Someone being unable to understand that 1+1=2 doesn't mean that 1+1 doesn't equal 2. I gave Sankarea a 5/10. I enjoyed it, but didn't rate it higher as I felt like it ended before it started to properly pick up. That doesn't mean I thought it bad or anything negative, really. It just didn't get far enough in for me, personally. It would easily have gone up to a 6 or 7/10 had it had an extra 12 episodes and retained the same quality. Not to mention that everyone rates differently. A 6/10 for most people on this site means that they hated a show, because they're too retarded to understand how to use a 1-10 scale properly. And if you think you can't enjoy something that you thought was average, you've your own problems too. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
Mar 17, 2018 4:41 PM
#126
i think i can introduce fma (& brotherhood) to others because it's a very easy anime to get into and isn't just good as a gateway anime. the other anime in my favs i wouldn't introduce new people to it |
Edward Elric > your waifu |
Mar 17, 2018 10:08 PM
#127
AstZero said: Are you telling people they should follow a rating created by someone else's opinion? The rating set on this site was made by the creator, which (s)he felt that a 5 was average, and so on. People are all different, hence, the way they choose to rate an anime is and will be different from anyone else. So, you belittling other people based on their choice of not following is quite a statement. Also, you forgot that all types of criticism and rating are subjective.hiyoon said: StarSwoardsman said: mihyon said: StarSwoardsman said: Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Anime fan doesn't mean someone who gives every single show a good rating.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I only like good anime. I don't rate everything a 8/10Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yes I enjoy good shows like Darker than Black and Hunter x Hunter. If I only wanted to hate anime I would have gave everything in my list a 1/10HitaYuutsu said: Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest is more pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. Your mean score is 3.66 in a total amount of 307 anime, are you sure you enjoy watching anime at all? I think he or she only wants to hate on Anime. That's like only two shows. You gave Steins Gate, a highly regarded show a five and Death Note, another highly regarded show a six. ' I think that you like some Anime, but you don't actually like Anime. Otherwise the majority of your list wouldn't be shows with scores of three, four and five. LOL okay. Like I said, you like SOME Anime, but clearly you are not an Anime fan. No. But they wouldn't dislike 90% of the shows that they watch. You don't know how they calculated their rating on anime. They could have enjoyed the anime and rated it low because it lacked in certain parts. Nah that makes no sense. I'll give you example. I enjoyed SAO. But, I didn't think that the writing was good and I am stickler for writing. But, my enjoyment of the series plus the music, animation, some of the characters and certain moments was enough for me to give it a seven. If you rate something low, you don't like it. Like I gave Soul Eater a six because I think it's mediocre. I like the design, the fights and the characters outside of Blackstar. But, I can't say that I really enjoyed the show. No one rates a show that they enjoyed a six or below. That makes no sense. MAL's rating is by numbers and its meaning. 4 being bad, and 5 being average - although I know I don't take those scores with my rating, some people may use these numbers as guidelines for their opinions. An example would be giving an anime a score of 5, meaning, that anime is average: nothing amazing, just ok. Yes, you could have enjoyed an average anime, but it does not mean you disliked it. I'm not justifying this user rating all his anime with 3 & 4, but everyone should be entitled to their opinion. He can be an anime fan and rate low for fun. In the end, we don't know how he calculated his score. Lmao i love people that go out of their way to make some retarded grading sistem when the MAL one is perfectly fine lol. I find the idea completly stupid and pointless but whatever. |
Mar 17, 2018 10:49 PM
#128
So, i would like to say that i no longer am 100% certain about that and would like an alternative. |
Mar 17, 2018 11:22 PM
#129
thewiru said: About the thing you wrote in your OP?So, i would like to say that i no longer am 100% certain about that and would like an alternative. |
Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Mar 17, 2018 11:59 PM
#130
I feel for someone to truly accept anime they have to be a fan of animation in general, cause anime overall is really immature and down right weird alot of the time. You watch anime to escape the kid cartoon of where you're from only to still be caught in something that isnt quite mature but not exactly for an 8 year old. So I wouldnt be mad at someone to pick and choose from such a niche medium. |
Mar 18, 2018 12:44 AM
#131
If they are interested why not? I never really force anyone to watch anything just because I like it but whenever people are interested I can just suggest them within the genre they like. Holy shit world war 3 is going on up there the amount of quotes scared me, they have the patience of a saint. |
Mar 18, 2018 1:45 AM
#132
Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 7: Because falling enlove because you were childhood friends that spend alot of time makes sense. Ymir loving Christina because of her past doesn't make sense. Simple.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 7:Ran and Conan were childhood friends who spent alot of time with each other thats why they loved each other. Christina loved historia for having the same past?lol what. Explain Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? 6: They're not technical genuines doesn't mean that they have to be idiots and tell eren infront of the squad that they're titans. Couldn't have they lied to eren saying we have something private to tell you if he refuses they'll probably know that he doesn't trust them and they could just forcefully take him away. I already explained how that's not a desu ex machina. I'm not gonna repeat myself. You ignored many of my points about AOT because you know the show is trash. 5: How about you stop lying and actually try to give good points? 4: Dude lol what? If a show doesn't have plot points then how is it even a show? That's like criticizing Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood for having Al and Ed's father leave. 3: You said in one of the quotes that you'll put an objective rating and explain how you rate your anime then if you're saying that you don't objectively rate things. (Too lazy to quote just go up and you'll find it) I haven't really watched the new conan episodes so I really can't tell if that's true or not but if you're saying that barely anything was explained in the whole show then that's a lie because they explained alot of stuff ex: How ran met shu , and Conan's and Ran's relationship. Ran and the kids learn the importance of life and the importance of things and develop throughout the story from being clueless kids to people who know what a life is worth. So, you're saying if a character has a bad life then the show is bad? That makes 0 sense. 2: He was that desperate for money he thought he could've won if he cheated the system. Selling his kidneys and eyes would probably only repay the debt he owns for the game owners company. It showed the important of human life and how humans will do anything for money. He was forced because of his circumstances. How is it bad? You're just being subjective now. If you're gonna complain about the physics then explain how the physics were bad. 3:She was a psychology damaged thats why she did what she did. The mother knew turning herself in because if she killed someone else she would have had a harsher sentence. Murdering someone and putting him in the bag would be hard since someone is bound to check the garbage, if he threw him in the river then someone is gonna find them depending on where he threw him. In order to talk about if he confessed his murder will his sentence be easier we need need to talk about the laws. 7. Conan and Ran are acceptable but Ymir loving Crista is not because Conan and Ran are childhood friends? What? That's garbage logic, if that happens in the real world then a vast number of people wouldn't be married. And sharing something in common isn't a believable reason for love? Do you even know what garbage you're writing? 6. That loses them the surprise factor, they only managed to get far because everyone was too stunned by the sudden event. Also, looking back, it was Ryner who said it, and even Bertholt was surprised that he did it, plus Reiner doing things spontaneously has precedence, the first attack on the wall was also him spontaneously doing stuff. 5. http://darkerthanblack.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dolls It's written there at the first line. There are instances that dolls show emotion or action, but that's a plot flaw, because the instances that dolls on't even respond to pain counter proves the "dolls hide their emotion" train of thought and that they are killed with no response for self preservation (a base instinct). Contractors not having emotions are also addressed as well in the show with two instances. Havoc, who lost her contractor powers gained a sense of morality after the fact and she basically said she didn't want to go back to being a remorseless monster. The other protagonist of DtB2 is another example. She loses her emotions whenever she enters contractor mode. That basically says that there is a fundamental difference between normal humans and contractors which the show breaks willy nilly. 4. I addressed that at a previous point. Euphy is a purity sue who the creators decided would be so kind and good that the only way to remove her is to make Lelouch do something so completely out of character. So basically yeah, she's designed as a poorly thought of plot point. 3. Can't back your own words? Typical garbage response. And your idea for Development is for Ran to learn about morality? That's not development, that's practically a baseline for any sane individual. No, I'm saying that Ran and co has practically very little development compared to the length of the show, or heck even the length of the key episodes. 2. So this is the flow of events: the guy is invited to a once in a lifetime chance to gain money (let's assume he's that fucking dumb. Besides, he's poor anyway, so that can be let slide) Then he goes on a cruise, offered money for 10% interest every ten minutes (ok anybody with half a brain would know this is some fucked up syndicate shit). 10% per 10 minutes is a shitload high interest and wouldn't even float on any situation. He takes it because he's that fucking dumb, finds out the game is rock paper scissors. Wait, this is even dumber, the debt thing and rock paper scissors guarantees that at least 50% of the participants go into debt. Add the interest thing and that there's a chance that people could win multiple times guarantees even more than 50% will go to debt. He goes to debt. Typical. The n he finds out he'll be solved to slavery. This is in a whole new level of shittery, the syndicate shit, at least you can pay the debt but being turned to a slave. That's fucked up on a new level, this isn't some random syndicate shit. So he goes on a boohoo this is a mistake shit. He then gets saved by some random act of kindness Then his next thought of action is to join again next time? To a game that he knows has an astronomically low chance of him winning? Where he knows he'll be sold as a slave for losing. Not even the dumbest person would think that that's a smart move. 1. Ok this is the biggest garbage you spouted yet. She had Conan stuck and could've killed him any time she desires, and her being "psychologically damaged" means that the chances she would've done it would supposedly be higher. Murdering someone and putting them in a body is hard? Conan is basically 10 or so in the show. He's not a fucking overweight man, and throwing said bag into the garbage is so stupid that I'm surprised anyone would think that that would be a sensible course of action in a detective show. She lives in a mansion where she managed to keep her son's existence from the world for almost 15 years. She could've just dumped the body in another basement, pour cement on the body and be done with it. And murder is murder. Confessing to a heinous crime would lower your sentence? That's capital punishment in Japan with life sentence or death penalty, which would make said confession moot. 6: Eren was already told that Berthlod and Riner were titans. Why would they be surprised? They already have all the evidence they need. They could have kidnapped them while they were sleeping or drugged them. 7: 8: No just morality they're relationship developed they trusted each other more and they love each other more. I already said that other characters developed aswell ex: Shu , The FBI agent and so on. It's not the show's fault that you're ignoring these cons. 9: He was that desperate I already explained this. 10: Psychology damage isn't supposed to make sense humans do illogical actions when they're psychologically damaged. Do you think the police won't look for Conan lol? They'll if Ran files a missing report and they'll investigate the lady since conan was last seen with her. Yeah because no one knew about her son. The police won't look for someone they don't they exists.https://www.quora.com/How-lenient-is-the-Japanese-criminal-law-murder-for-example 10. Ran contacting about Conan being missing wouldn't make sense as this was in the first few chapters, they weren't that close and would just assume that Conan went back to his parents (who didn't even give Kogoro their info given that they're Shinichi's parents), so no, that idea is shot down before it can even happen. Cameras everywhere wasn't a thing in the 90s, which was when the story was made and the house was believed to be haunted, which makes contacting the police moot as well. Also there are times when murder gets past the police as well even in current times but were found out because of the rotting corpse smell from a neighbor's apartment, which I already addressed can be bypassed because a. mansion and b. pour cement. Conan went inside a haunted mansion where he found said woman, Ran wouldn't know shit about that. None of your points as well make it less likely that the woman couldn't have simply killed Conan. 9. Desperate doesn't justify stupid. You explained "he needs money for his family". being turned into a slave, a position which: will not grant you any chance to have money or possessions or even have ownership of your own body and anybody knows that that is the dumbest possible outcome anyone could have thought of. It's akin to handing himself to organ thieves rather than selling his own organs. No sane scenario would have led to his thinking that entering the game again would amount to anything. 8. Your whatever it is is broken. They trusted and loved each other more? Lmao, Ran's interaction with Shinichi is when he's in Conan form. She already trusted him very much from the start with a few exceptions, otherwise she wouldn't believe the "I have a very complicated mystery to solve" thing. Also I didn't say that there was 0 development from the start, you're clearly projecting here. 7. Also broken 6. And he was in disbelief. At that point of the show, there was also no indication that drugs were prevalent, which makes that line moot, and again, abducting him while he's full of energy would make it a fight on two fronts, from a not surprised survey corps and titan Eren, which I already iterated earlier. 5. Again stupid argument. Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy has nothing in common, does that mean that their relationship is even more flawed than Crista and Ymir's? Also what happened to the other numbers? Can't disprove them can't you? The DtB fanon was particularly stupid of you to assume. |
BrbMar 18, 2018 1:49 AM
Mar 18, 2018 1:57 AM
#133
RotatingDemon said: Brb said: Hahaha I'm not even gonna read through all of this I just can see by how many quotes there are that it's complete angry bullshitBlack_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? Tbh, I didn't really care much until he suddenly spouted that smart people have a specific criterion in rating anime, doesn't follow it and then dares mention "debate" which my uni debate background wouldn't let pass unchallenged (I do admit that I could have not mocked him, but any person who puts forth the concept of debate in a discussion and does not follow it deserves a whooping in my book). |
Mar 18, 2018 2:01 AM
#134
I got my Dad into anime years ago, as I couldn't find anything good to put on Netflix so I got Death Note from my DVD collection |
Kyon: Hey. It's me. We meet again. [Thinking] So it really was you. Yuki: What are you doing out here? And why? Kyon: [Aloud] Funny. I was just about to ask you the same exact thing [Yuki struggles to look for an answer.] Yuki: A...walk? Kyon: [Thinking] That's not true. That's not true, Nagato. You were tired. You'd had enough of Haruhi's nonsense. Getting dragged all over the place. You were tired of protecting me. And you were tired of whatever else you had to do. Stuff we didn't even know about. The fatigue from all those things just kept building up. |
Mar 18, 2018 5:14 AM
#135
Brb said: 1: Agasia would have filed a missing report then. Ok let's say she burned Conan don't you think that no one would know plus her killing another person might be too cruel for her.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 7:Ran and Conan were childhood friends who spent alot of time with each other thats why they loved each other. Christina loved historia for having the same past?lol what. Explain Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? 6: They're not technical genuines doesn't mean that they have to be idiots and tell eren infront of the squad that they're titans. Couldn't have they lied to eren saying we have something private to tell you if he refuses they'll probably know that he doesn't trust them and they could just forcefully take him away. I already explained how that's not a desu ex machina. I'm not gonna repeat myself. You ignored many of my points about AOT because you know the show is trash. 5: How about you stop lying and actually try to give good points? 4: Dude lol what? If a show doesn't have plot points then how is it even a show? That's like criticizing Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood for having Al and Ed's father leave. 3: You said in one of the quotes that you'll put an objective rating and explain how you rate your anime then if you're saying that you don't objectively rate things. (Too lazy to quote just go up and you'll find it) I haven't really watched the new conan episodes so I really can't tell if that's true or not but if you're saying that barely anything was explained in the whole show then that's a lie because they explained alot of stuff ex: How ran met shu , and Conan's and Ran's relationship. Ran and the kids learn the importance of life and the importance of things and develop throughout the story from being clueless kids to people who know what a life is worth. So, you're saying if a character has a bad life then the show is bad? That makes 0 sense. 2: He was that desperate for money he thought he could've won if he cheated the system. Selling his kidneys and eyes would probably only repay the debt he owns for the game owners company. It showed the important of human life and how humans will do anything for money. He was forced because of his circumstances. How is it bad? You're just being subjective now. If you're gonna complain about the physics then explain how the physics were bad. 3:She was a psychology damaged thats why she did what she did. The mother knew turning herself in because if she killed someone else she would have had a harsher sentence. Murdering someone and putting him in the bag would be hard since someone is bound to check the garbage, if he threw him in the river then someone is gonna find them depending on where he threw him. In order to talk about if he confessed his murder will his sentence be easier we need need to talk about the laws. 7. Conan and Ran are acceptable but Ymir loving Crista is not because Conan and Ran are childhood friends? What? That's garbage logic, if that happens in the real world then a vast number of people wouldn't be married. And sharing something in common isn't a believable reason for love? Do you even know what garbage you're writing? 6. That loses them the surprise factor, they only managed to get far because everyone was too stunned by the sudden event. Also, looking back, it was Ryner who said it, and even Bertholt was surprised that he did it, plus Reiner doing things spontaneously has precedence, the first attack on the wall was also him spontaneously doing stuff. 5. http://darkerthanblack.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dolls It's written there at the first line. There are instances that dolls show emotion or action, but that's a plot flaw, because the instances that dolls on't even respond to pain counter proves the "dolls hide their emotion" train of thought and that they are killed with no response for self preservation (a base instinct). Contractors not having emotions are also addressed as well in the show with two instances. Havoc, who lost her contractor powers gained a sense of morality after the fact and she basically said she didn't want to go back to being a remorseless monster. The other protagonist of DtB2 is another example. She loses her emotions whenever she enters contractor mode. That basically says that there is a fundamental difference between normal humans and contractors which the show breaks willy nilly. 4. I addressed that at a previous point. Euphy is a purity sue who the creators decided would be so kind and good that the only way to remove her is to make Lelouch do something so completely out of character. So basically yeah, she's designed as a poorly thought of plot point. 3. Can't back your own words? Typical garbage response. And your idea for Development is for Ran to learn about morality? That's not development, that's practically a baseline for any sane individual. No, I'm saying that Ran and co has practically very little development compared to the length of the show, or heck even the length of the key episodes. 2. So this is the flow of events: the guy is invited to a once in a lifetime chance to gain money (let's assume he's that fucking dumb. Besides, he's poor anyway, so that can be let slide) Then he goes on a cruise, offered money for 10% interest every ten minutes (ok anybody with half a brain would know this is some fucked up syndicate shit). 10% per 10 minutes is a shitload high interest and wouldn't even float on any situation. He takes it because he's that fucking dumb, finds out the game is rock paper scissors. Wait, this is even dumber, the debt thing and rock paper scissors guarantees that at least 50% of the participants go into debt. Add the interest thing and that there's a chance that people could win multiple times guarantees even more than 50% will go to debt. He goes to debt. Typical. The n he finds out he'll be solved to slavery. This is in a whole new level of shittery, the syndicate shit, at least you can pay the debt but being turned to a slave. That's fucked up on a new level, this isn't some random syndicate shit. So he goes on a boohoo this is a mistake shit. He then gets saved by some random act of kindness Then his next thought of action is to join again next time? To a game that he knows has an astronomically low chance of him winning? Where he knows he'll be sold as a slave for losing. Not even the dumbest person would think that that's a smart move. 1. Ok this is the biggest garbage you spouted yet. She had Conan stuck and could've killed him any time she desires, and her being "psychologically damaged" means that the chances she would've done it would supposedly be higher. Murdering someone and putting them in a body is hard? Conan is basically 10 or so in the show. He's not a fucking overweight man, and throwing said bag into the garbage is so stupid that I'm surprised anyone would think that that would be a sensible course of action in a detective show. She lives in a mansion where she managed to keep her son's existence from the world for almost 15 years. She could've just dumped the body in another basement, pour cement on the body and be done with it. And murder is murder. Confessing to a heinous crime would lower your sentence? That's capital punishment in Japan with life sentence or death penalty, which would make said confession moot. 6: Eren was already told that Berthlod and Riner were titans. Why would they be surprised? They already have all the evidence they need. They could have kidnapped them while they were sleeping or drugged them. 7: 8: No just morality they're relationship developed they trusted each other more and they love each other more. I already said that other characters developed aswell ex: Shu , The FBI agent and so on. It's not the show's fault that you're ignoring these cons. 9: He was that desperate I already explained this. 10: Psychology damage isn't supposed to make sense humans do illogical actions when they're psychologically damaged. Do you think the police won't look for Conan lol? They'll if Ran files a missing report and they'll investigate the lady since conan was last seen with her. Yeah because no one knew about her son. The police won't look for someone they don't they exists.https://www.quora.com/How-lenient-is-the-Japanese-criminal-law-murder-for-example 10. Ran contacting about Conan being missing wouldn't make sense as this was in the first few chapters, they weren't that close and would just assume that Conan went back to his parents (who didn't even give Kogoro their info given that they're Shinichi's parents), so no, that idea is shot down before it can even happen. Cameras everywhere wasn't a thing in the 90s, which was when the story was made and the house was believed to be haunted, which makes contacting the police moot as well. Also there are times when murder gets past the police as well even in current times but were found out because of the rotting corpse smell from a neighbor's apartment, which I already addressed can be bypassed because a. mansion and b. pour cement. Conan went inside a haunted mansion where he found said woman, Ran wouldn't know shit about that. None of your points as well make it less likely that the woman couldn't have simply killed Conan. 9. Desperate doesn't justify stupid. You explained "he needs money for his family". being turned into a slave, a position which: will not grant you any chance to have money or possessions or even have ownership of your own body and anybody knows that that is the dumbest possible outcome anyone could have thought of. It's akin to handing himself to organ thieves rather than selling his own organs. No sane scenario would have led to his thinking that entering the game again would amount to anything. 8. Your whatever it is is broken. They trusted and loved each other more? Lmao, Ran's interaction with Shinichi is when he's in Conan form. She already trusted him very much from the start with a few exceptions, otherwise she wouldn't believe the "I have a very complicated mystery to solve" thing. Also I didn't say that there was 0 development from the start, you're clearly projecting here. 7. Also broken 6. And he was in disbelief. At that point of the show, there was also no indication that drugs were prevalent, which makes that line moot, and again, abducting him while he's full of energy would make it a fight on two fronts, from a not surprised survey corps and titan Eren, which I already iterated earlier. 5. Again stupid argument. Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy has nothing in common, does that mean that their relationship is even more flawed than Crista and Ymir's? Also what happened to the other numbers? Can't disprove them can't you? The DtB fanon was particularly stupid of you to assume. 2: People do stupid things when they're desperate. I like how you're criticizing Kaiji for having a desperate character when you rated Angel Beats an 8/10 which had the main character refusing to heal his own injuries so he can help others which lead to his death. 3: Before he turned into Conan they were hangingout like everyday if you know someone for a long time and if you know someone's a good person you're gonna trust him. 4: 5: They like each other's personality that's a good enough reason to fall enlove with a person. Ymir liked Christina because of her past which is an illogical reason to fall enlove with someone. 6: It's possible to chain them while their asleep they can't turn into Titans if they can't hurt themselves to a level that blood comes out |
The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows. |
Mar 18, 2018 9:34 AM
#136
Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Agasia would have filed a missing report then. Ok let's say she burned Conan don't you think that no one would know plus her killing another person might be too cruel for her.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 7: Because falling enlove because you were childhood friends that spend alot of time makes sense. Ymir loving Christina because of her past doesn't make sense. Simple.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 7:Ran and Conan were childhood friends who spent alot of time with each other thats why they loved each other. Christina loved historia for having the same past?lol what. Explain Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? 6: They're not technical genuines doesn't mean that they have to be idiots and tell eren infront of the squad that they're titans. Couldn't have they lied to eren saying we have something private to tell you if he refuses they'll probably know that he doesn't trust them and they could just forcefully take him away. I already explained how that's not a desu ex machina. I'm not gonna repeat myself. You ignored many of my points about AOT because you know the show is trash. 5: How about you stop lying and actually try to give good points? 4: Dude lol what? If a show doesn't have plot points then how is it even a show? That's like criticizing Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood for having Al and Ed's father leave. 3: You said in one of the quotes that you'll put an objective rating and explain how you rate your anime then if you're saying that you don't objectively rate things. (Too lazy to quote just go up and you'll find it) I haven't really watched the new conan episodes so I really can't tell if that's true or not but if you're saying that barely anything was explained in the whole show then that's a lie because they explained alot of stuff ex: How ran met shu , and Conan's and Ran's relationship. Ran and the kids learn the importance of life and the importance of things and develop throughout the story from being clueless kids to people who know what a life is worth. So, you're saying if a character has a bad life then the show is bad? That makes 0 sense. 2: He was that desperate for money he thought he could've won if he cheated the system. Selling his kidneys and eyes would probably only repay the debt he owns for the game owners company. It showed the important of human life and how humans will do anything for money. He was forced because of his circumstances. How is it bad? You're just being subjective now. If you're gonna complain about the physics then explain how the physics were bad. 3:She was a psychology damaged thats why she did what she did. The mother knew turning herself in because if she killed someone else she would have had a harsher sentence. Murdering someone and putting him in the bag would be hard since someone is bound to check the garbage, if he threw him in the river then someone is gonna find them depending on where he threw him. In order to talk about if he confessed his murder will his sentence be easier we need need to talk about the laws. 7. Conan and Ran are acceptable but Ymir loving Crista is not because Conan and Ran are childhood friends? What? That's garbage logic, if that happens in the real world then a vast number of people wouldn't be married. And sharing something in common isn't a believable reason for love? Do you even know what garbage you're writing? 6. That loses them the surprise factor, they only managed to get far because everyone was too stunned by the sudden event. Also, looking back, it was Ryner who said it, and even Bertholt was surprised that he did it, plus Reiner doing things spontaneously has precedence, the first attack on the wall was also him spontaneously doing stuff. 5. http://darkerthanblack.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dolls It's written there at the first line. There are instances that dolls show emotion or action, but that's a plot flaw, because the instances that dolls on't even respond to pain counter proves the "dolls hide their emotion" train of thought and that they are killed with no response for self preservation (a base instinct). Contractors not having emotions are also addressed as well in the show with two instances. Havoc, who lost her contractor powers gained a sense of morality after the fact and she basically said she didn't want to go back to being a remorseless monster. The other protagonist of DtB2 is another example. She loses her emotions whenever she enters contractor mode. That basically says that there is a fundamental difference between normal humans and contractors which the show breaks willy nilly. 4. I addressed that at a previous point. Euphy is a purity sue who the creators decided would be so kind and good that the only way to remove her is to make Lelouch do something so completely out of character. So basically yeah, she's designed as a poorly thought of plot point. 3. Can't back your own words? Typical garbage response. And your idea for Development is for Ran to learn about morality? That's not development, that's practically a baseline for any sane individual. No, I'm saying that Ran and co has practically very little development compared to the length of the show, or heck even the length of the key episodes. 2. So this is the flow of events: the guy is invited to a once in a lifetime chance to gain money (let's assume he's that fucking dumb. Besides, he's poor anyway, so that can be let slide) Then he goes on a cruise, offered money for 10% interest every ten minutes (ok anybody with half a brain would know this is some fucked up syndicate shit). 10% per 10 minutes is a shitload high interest and wouldn't even float on any situation. He takes it because he's that fucking dumb, finds out the game is rock paper scissors. Wait, this is even dumber, the debt thing and rock paper scissors guarantees that at least 50% of the participants go into debt. Add the interest thing and that there's a chance that people could win multiple times guarantees even more than 50% will go to debt. He goes to debt. Typical. The n he finds out he'll be solved to slavery. This is in a whole new level of shittery, the syndicate shit, at least you can pay the debt but being turned to a slave. That's fucked up on a new level, this isn't some random syndicate shit. So he goes on a boohoo this is a mistake shit. He then gets saved by some random act of kindness Then his next thought of action is to join again next time? To a game that he knows has an astronomically low chance of him winning? Where he knows he'll be sold as a slave for losing. Not even the dumbest person would think that that's a smart move. 1. Ok this is the biggest garbage you spouted yet. She had Conan stuck and could've killed him any time she desires, and her being "psychologically damaged" means that the chances she would've done it would supposedly be higher. Murdering someone and putting them in a body is hard? Conan is basically 10 or so in the show. He's not a fucking overweight man, and throwing said bag into the garbage is so stupid that I'm surprised anyone would think that that would be a sensible course of action in a detective show. She lives in a mansion where she managed to keep her son's existence from the world for almost 15 years. She could've just dumped the body in another basement, pour cement on the body and be done with it. And murder is murder. Confessing to a heinous crime would lower your sentence? That's capital punishment in Japan with life sentence or death penalty, which would make said confession moot. 6: Eren was already told that Berthlod and Riner were titans. Why would they be surprised? They already have all the evidence they need. They could have kidnapped them while they were sleeping or drugged them. 7: 8: No just morality they're relationship developed they trusted each other more and they love each other more. I already said that other characters developed aswell ex: Shu , The FBI agent and so on. It's not the show's fault that you're ignoring these cons. 9: He was that desperate I already explained this. 10: Psychology damage isn't supposed to make sense humans do illogical actions when they're psychologically damaged. Do you think the police won't look for Conan lol? They'll if Ran files a missing report and they'll investigate the lady since conan was last seen with her. Yeah because no one knew about her son. The police won't look for someone they don't they exists.https://www.quora.com/How-lenient-is-the-Japanese-criminal-law-murder-for-example 10. Ran contacting about Conan being missing wouldn't make sense as this was in the first few chapters, they weren't that close and would just assume that Conan went back to his parents (who didn't even give Kogoro their info given that they're Shinichi's parents), so no, that idea is shot down before it can even happen. Cameras everywhere wasn't a thing in the 90s, which was when the story was made and the house was believed to be haunted, which makes contacting the police moot as well. Also there are times when murder gets past the police as well even in current times but were found out because of the rotting corpse smell from a neighbor's apartment, which I already addressed can be bypassed because a. mansion and b. pour cement. Conan went inside a haunted mansion where he found said woman, Ran wouldn't know shit about that. None of your points as well make it less likely that the woman couldn't have simply killed Conan. 9. Desperate doesn't justify stupid. You explained "he needs money for his family". being turned into a slave, a position which: will not grant you any chance to have money or possessions or even have ownership of your own body and anybody knows that that is the dumbest possible outcome anyone could have thought of. It's akin to handing himself to organ thieves rather than selling his own organs. No sane scenario would have led to his thinking that entering the game again would amount to anything. 8. Your whatever it is is broken. They trusted and loved each other more? Lmao, Ran's interaction with Shinichi is when he's in Conan form. She already trusted him very much from the start with a few exceptions, otherwise she wouldn't believe the "I have a very complicated mystery to solve" thing. Also I didn't say that there was 0 development from the start, you're clearly projecting here. 7. Also broken 6. And he was in disbelief. At that point of the show, there was also no indication that drugs were prevalent, which makes that line moot, and again, abducting him while he's full of energy would make it a fight on two fronts, from a not surprised survey corps and titan Eren, which I already iterated earlier. 5. Again stupid argument. Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy has nothing in common, does that mean that their relationship is even more flawed than Crista and Ymir's? Also what happened to the other numbers? Can't disprove them can't you? The DtB fanon was particularly stupid of you to assume. 2: People do stupid things when they're desperate. I like how you're criticizing Kaiji for having a desperate character when you rated Angel Beats an 8/10 which had the main character refusing to heal his own injuries so he can help others which lead to his death. 3: Before he turned into Conan they were hangingout like everyday if you know someone for a long time and if you know someone's a good person you're gonna trust him. 4: 5: They like each other's personality that's a good enough reason to fall enlove with a person. Ymir liked Christina because of her past which is an illogical reason to fall enlove with someone. 6: It's possible to chain them while their asleep they can't turn into Titans if they can't hurt themselves to a level that blood comes out 1. You mean the professor? He trusts Conan enough to not report immediately when he goes missing. She wouldn't burn Conan, she was gonna stab him. And killing another person would be too cruel? Lmao, she locked up her son and was unfazed by the death of her husband. You know for someone who claims plot holes are bad, your solution to justify a plot hole is to make even more plot holes? That takes a higher level of hypocrisy to justify. And again, big fucking mansion. dump in a room, pour cement. solved. She wouldn't be found as well since the kids went inside a haunted mansion. 2. People don't do the dumbest thing immediately even if they are desperate. If they did, then people would be robbing military bases first instead of convenience store. The logical (see, this is what a sane person would conclude first instead of jumping into a place that would sell you as a slave) things that he could have done are: a. just ran away (most logical and happens most often in real life) b. rob a store (best outcome, he's successful, least he gets jailed, which considering that he won't be turned into a slave, is a better outcome than fucking joining the game again) c. sell organs (at least he gains money from his organs, if he's a slave, they could just take his organs free of charge which, given that the game involves people walking a very high beam with sure chances of dying, it wouldn't even be shocking) What? For someone who used the word debate, you clearly don't know how it works. For starters MC in angel beats doing that is within his character. Aspiring doctor, no living relatives, helping others would be totally sensible to him especially if he assessed that he couldn't be helped without proper medical assistance. Yes that's a thing. And you addressed the issue from the old man who went back to the game as Kaiji's? Oh no, Kaiji is even worse than that. He cycles from incompetent, trusting, betrayed and depressed then suddenly turns into a badass (in story, he didn't know shit about the game, trusts some guy, was tricked by him, went boohoo I'm fucked, then suddenly becomes a genius at the game, discovered some flaws in plan, trusted two guys to bail him, got put into the slave room, was told how stupid he is, suddenly figured out that the guy who told him trusting was stupid conveniently has jewels on him). This requires putting a lot of plot holes, because: a. Kaji's character flip flops around. That level of change requires a huge suspension of disbelief because it hinges on him never learning (very stupid) and changing character many times within a short time frame (the trip was 2 or was it 3 hours long, no one reacts that fast). Suddenly being badass(not very believable outside of I'm MC convenience since he was first presented as a timid bum, again, breaks character=flaw) and putting up ingenious plots which required people, who had been in the game before, not even executing said plot before him despite them knowing the game beforehand. b. The cycle repeats in arc two, which at this point becomes laughably construed. c. Him being saved requires a deus ex machina(the whole thing wasn't alluded anyway, considering that they just presented the slave cage at the latter half, there was no chance from the start anyway, the guy mocks Kaiji of all the people in the room, have the galls to tell him how his plan works(what kind of idiot does that?) and says how he would be saved, showed he had less cash on hand than what the stars are worth, and put the jewels on his back of all places, which literally begged him to be mugged) 3. Your link is broken Also your Conan response is stupid. I'm saying that your response to what character growth is for Ran (trusting Shinichi more) is fucking stupid, she already trust him very well (which you also said) so you saying trusting more is both stupid and wrong and then you had the gall to say she already did that beforehand. You're now putting the same thing as character growth and not at the same time? That is doubly stupid. 4. Also broken 5. What? Now you're grasping at straws. Both had no prior knowledge of each other before his love at first sight (at least what I think it is) and you're saying it's because they liked each other's personality? At least Ymir and Crista were at the s |
BrbMar 18, 2018 9:43 AM
Mar 18, 2018 4:53 PM
#137
GlennMagusHarvey said: thewiru said: About the thing you wrote in your OP?So, i would like to say that i no longer am 100% certain about that and would like an alternative. Perhaps. I just came with the conclusion that those kind of things aren't the type that i can figure out everything alone. How can i solve this? |
Mar 18, 2018 9:13 PM
#138
thewiru said: I don't know if it's something that needs to be "solved", but...GlennMagusHarvey said: thewiru said: So, i would like to say that i no longer am 100% certain about that and would like an alternative. Perhaps. I just came with the conclusion that those kind of things aren't the type that i can figure out everything alone. How can i solve this? What's the goal you're trying to achieve? Getting people into anime in general, or getting people into the hardcore anime fandom, memes and all? |
Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Mar 18, 2018 9:32 PM
#139
GlennMagusHarvey said: thewiru said: I don't know if it's something that needs to be "solved", but...GlennMagusHarvey said: thewiru said: About the thing you wrote in your OP?So, i would like to say that i no longer am 100% certain about that and would like an alternative. Perhaps. I just came with the conclusion that those kind of things aren't the type that i can figure out everything alone. How can i solve this? What's the goal you're trying to achieve? Getting people into anime in general, or getting people into the hardcore anime fandom, memes and all? The latter. @Brb @Black_Flower_1 Just get married already. |
Mar 27, 2018 6:03 AM
#140
Brb said: 1: If conan goes missing for days he's gonna report on it. Alot of people in real life regret murdering other people so that's not illogical.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 7:Ran and Conan were childhood friends who spent alot of time with each other thats why they loved each other. Christina loved historia for having the same past?lol what. Explain Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? 6: They're not technical genuines doesn't mean that they have to be idiots and tell eren infront of the squad that they're titans. Couldn't have they lied to eren saying we have something private to tell you if he refuses they'll probably know that he doesn't trust them and they could just forcefully take him away. I already explained how that's not a desu ex machina. I'm not gonna repeat myself. You ignored many of my points about AOT because you know the show is trash. 5: How about you stop lying and actually try to give good points? 4: Dude lol what? If a show doesn't have plot points then how is it even a show? That's like criticizing Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood for having Al and Ed's father leave. 3: You said in one of the quotes that you'll put an objective rating and explain how you rate your anime then if you're saying that you don't objectively rate things. (Too lazy to quote just go up and you'll find it) I haven't really watched the new conan episodes so I really can't tell if that's true or not but if you're saying that barely anything was explained in the whole show then that's a lie because they explained alot of stuff ex: How ran met shu , and Conan's and Ran's relationship. Ran and the kids learn the importance of life and the importance of things and develop throughout the story from being clueless kids to people who know what a life is worth. So, you're saying if a character has a bad life then the show is bad? That makes 0 sense. 2: He was that desperate for money he thought he could've won if he cheated the system. Selling his kidneys and eyes would probably only repay the debt he owns for the game owners company. It showed the important of human life and how humans will do anything for money. He was forced because of his circumstances. How is it bad? You're just being subjective now. If you're gonna complain about the physics then explain how the physics were bad. 3:She was a psychology damaged thats why she did what she did. The mother knew turning herself in because if she killed someone else she would have had a harsher sentence. Murdering someone and putting him in the bag would be hard since someone is bound to check the garbage, if he threw him in the river then someone is gonna find them depending on where he threw him. In order to talk about if he confessed his murder will his sentence be easier we need need to talk about the laws. 7. Conan and Ran are acceptable but Ymir loving Crista is not because Conan and Ran are childhood friends? What? That's garbage logic, if that happens in the real world then a vast number of people wouldn't be married. And sharing something in common isn't a believable reason for love? Do you even know what garbage you're writing? 6. That loses them the surprise factor, they only managed to get far because everyone was too stunned by the sudden event. Also, looking back, it was Ryner who said it, and even Bertholt was surprised that he did it, plus Reiner doing things spontaneously has precedence, the first attack on the wall was also him spontaneously doing stuff. 5. http://darkerthanblack.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dolls It's written there at the first line. There are instances that dolls show emotion or action, but that's a plot flaw, because the instances that dolls on't even respond to pain counter proves the "dolls hide their emotion" train of thought and that they are killed with no response for self preservation (a base instinct). Contractors not having emotions are also addressed as well in the show with two instances. Havoc, who lost her contractor powers gained a sense of morality after the fact and she basically said she didn't want to go back to being a remorseless monster. The other protagonist of DtB2 is another example. She loses her emotions whenever she enters contractor mode. That basically says that there is a fundamental difference between normal humans and contractors which the show breaks willy nilly. 4. I addressed that at a previous point. Euphy is a purity sue who the creators decided would be so kind and good that the only way to remove her is to make Lelouch do something so completely out of character. So basically yeah, she's designed as a poorly thought of plot point. 3. Can't back your own words? Typical garbage response. And your idea for Development is for Ran to learn about morality? That's not development, that's practically a baseline for any sane individual. No, I'm saying that Ran and co has practically very little development compared to the length of the show, or heck even the length of the key episodes. 2. So this is the flow of events: the guy is invited to a once in a lifetime chance to gain money (let's assume he's that fucking dumb. Besides, he's poor anyway, so that can be let slide) Then he goes on a cruise, offered money for 10% interest every ten minutes (ok anybody with half a brain would know this is some fucked up syndicate shit). 10% per 10 minutes is a shitload high interest and wouldn't even float on any situation. He takes it because he's that fucking dumb, finds out the game is rock paper scissors. Wait, this is even dumber, the debt thing and rock paper scissors guarantees that at least 50% of the participants go into debt. Add the interest thing and that there's a chance that people could win multiple times guarantees even more than 50% will go to debt. He goes to debt. Typical. The n he finds out he'll be solved to slavery. This is in a whole new level of shittery, the syndicate shit, at least you can pay the debt but being turned to a slave. That's fucked up on a new level, this isn't some random syndicate shit. So he goes on a boohoo this is a mistake shit. He then gets saved by some random act of kindness Then his next thought of action is to join again next time? To a game that he knows has an astronomically low chance of him winning? Where he knows he'll be sold as a slave for losing. Not even the dumbest person would think that that's a smart move. 1. Ok this is the biggest garbage you spouted yet. She had Conan stuck and could've killed him any time she desires, and her being "psychologically damaged" means that the chances she would've done it would supposedly be higher. Murdering someone and putting them in a body is hard? Conan is basically 10 or so in the show. He's not a fucking overweight man, and throwing said bag into the garbage is so stupid that I'm surprised anyone would think that that would be a sensible course of action in a detective show. She lives in a mansion where she managed to keep her son's existence from the world for almost 15 years. She could've just dumped the body in another basement, pour cement on the body and be done with it. And murder is murder. Confessing to a heinous crime would lower your sentence? That's capital punishment in Japan with life sentence or death penalty, which would make said confession moot. 6: Eren was already told that Berthlod and Riner were titans. Why would they be surprised? They already have all the evidence they need. They could have kidnapped them while they were sleeping or drugged them. 7: 8: No just morality they're relationship developed they trusted each other more and they love each other more. I already said that other characters developed aswell ex: Shu , The FBI agent and so on. It's not the show's fault that you're ignoring these cons. 9: He was that desperate I already explained this. 10: Psychology damage isn't supposed to make sense humans do illogical actions when they're psychologically damaged. Do you think the police won't look for Conan lol? They'll if Ran files a missing report and they'll investigate the lady since conan was last seen with her. Yeah because no one knew about her son. The police won't look for someone they don't they exists.https://www.quora.com/How-lenient-is-the-Japanese-criminal-law-murder-for-example 10. Ran contacting about Conan being missing wouldn't make sense as this was in the first few chapters, they weren't that close and would just assume that Conan went back to his parents (who didn't even give Kogoro their info given that they're Shinichi's parents), so no, that idea is shot down before it can even happen. Cameras everywhere wasn't a thing in the 90s, which was when the story was made and the house was believed to be haunted, which makes contacting the police moot as well. Also there are times when murder gets past the police as well even in current times but were found out because of the rotting corpse smell from a neighbor's apartment, which I already addressed can be bypassed because a. mansion and b. pour cement. Conan went inside a haunted mansion where he found said woman, Ran wouldn't know shit about that. None of your points as well make it less likely that the woman couldn't have simply killed Conan. 9. Desperate doesn't justify stupid. You explained "he needs money for his family". being turned into a slave, a position which: will not grant you any chance to have money or possessions or even have ownership of your own body and anybody knows that that is the dumbest possible outcome anyone could have thought of. It's akin to handing himself to organ thieves rather than selling his own organs. No sane scenario would have led to his thinking that entering the game again would amount to anything. 8. Your whatever it is is broken. They trusted and loved each other more? Lmao, Ran's interaction with Shinichi is when he's in Conan form. She already trusted him very much from the start with a few exceptions, otherwise she wouldn't believe the "I have a very complicated mystery to solve" thing. Also I didn't say that there was 0 development from the start, you're clearly projecting here. 7. Also broken 6. And he was in disbelief. At that point of the show, there was also no indication that drugs were prevalent, which makes that line moot, and again, abducting him while he's full of energy would make it a fight on two fronts, from a not surprised survey corps and titan Eren, which I already iterated earlier. 5. Again stupid argument. Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy has nothing in common, does that mean that their relationship is even more flawed than Crista and Ymir's? Also what happened to the other numbers? Can't disprove them can't you? The DtB fanon was particularly stupid of you to assume. 2: They're is a difference between robbing a military base and risking your life gambling for money. A: and let his family die? Yep because that's better than risking your life. B: Robbing a store has a high chance of arrest and if he's arrested then nothing would change. Plus he doesn't have enough money to buy a gun. Robbing a bank with a knife is too stupid since the police have guns and they'll just shoot him. C: I already explained this like 3 times him selling his organs would just pay off the company debt. No he healed alot of people with serious injuries so yeah thanks for letting me find another plot hole. I like how you're trying to hate on Kaiji when Angel Beats is filled with plot holes. I'm not gonna list all of them I'll list the biggest three. Plus yeah he was desperate that he made a stupid decision of letting himself die. 1: How did otanshi survived for days with a serious life threatening injury? 2: Why was angel there before otanshi? 3:How did angel manage to participate in the base ball competition without disappearing? I already debunked about the old man who tricked Kaiji part I'm not gonna repeat myself. 1: He has no choice but to trust people there if he didn't trust anyone people could team up against him. Plus being with people is better than being alone since when you're alone you could get tricked easier. I already explained this aswell Kaiji was always good at gambling that's how he survived so far. Being betrayed will emotionally damaged a person so yeah nice counterpart there. Not really Kaiji only got betrayed at the end and even if you were right the place is filled with scumbags ofcourse they're gonna try and trick someone. 3:https://instagram.com/p/BgZYlx5DmkrzomkR2lLBrrq4Ot7K2Q6eR_3WYc0/ 4: What are you even trying to get achieve in this part? Also, she didn't trust him when they were kids. 5:https://instagram.com/p/BgZZQLcj6AmNw8dBcC9AR0TNMA5F2lwfPBHywI0/ 6: Distance love. They could have secretly looked at each other. Wdym was s? |
The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows. |
Mar 27, 2018 8:08 AM
#141
Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If conan goes missing for days he's gonna report on it. Alot of people in real life regret murdering other people so that's not illogical.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 7: Because falling enlove because you were childhood friends that spend alot of time makes sense. Ymir loving Christina because of her past doesn't make sense. Simple.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 7:Ran and Conan were childhood friends who spent alot of time with each other thats why they loved each other. Christina loved historia for having the same past?lol what. Explain Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? 6: They're not technical genuines doesn't mean that they have to be idiots and tell eren infront of the squad that they're titans. Couldn't have they lied to eren saying we have something private to tell you if he refuses they'll probably know that he doesn't trust them and they could just forcefully take him away. I already explained how that's not a desu ex machina. I'm not gonna repeat myself. You ignored many of my points about AOT because you know the show is trash. 5: How about you stop lying and actually try to give good points? 4: Dude lol what? If a show doesn't have plot points then how is it even a show? That's like criticizing Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood for having Al and Ed's father leave. 3: You said in one of the quotes that you'll put an objective rating and explain how you rate your anime then if you're saying that you don't objectively rate things. (Too lazy to quote just go up and you'll find it) I haven't really watched the new conan episodes so I really can't tell if that's true or not but if you're saying that barely anything was explained in the whole show then that's a lie because they explained alot of stuff ex: How ran met shu , and Conan's and Ran's relationship. Ran and the kids learn the importance of life and the importance of things and develop throughout the story from being clueless kids to people who know what a life is worth. So, you're saying if a character has a bad life then the show is bad? That makes 0 sense. 2: He was that desperate for money he thought he could've won if he cheated the system. Selling his kidneys and eyes would probably only repay the debt he owns for the game owners company. It showed the important of human life and how humans will do anything for money. He was forced because of his circumstances. How is it bad? You're just being subjective now. If you're gonna complain about the physics then explain how the physics were bad. 3:She was a psychology damaged thats why she did what she did. The mother knew turning herself in because if she killed someone else she would have had a harsher sentence. Murdering someone and putting him in the bag would be hard since someone is bound to check the garbage, if he threw him in the river then someone is gonna find them depending on where he threw him. In order to talk about if he confessed his murder will his sentence be easier we need need to talk about the laws. 7. Conan and Ran are acceptable but Ymir loving Crista is not because Conan and Ran are childhood friends? What? That's garbage logic, if that happens in the real world then a vast number of people wouldn't be married. And sharing something in common isn't a believable reason for love? Do you even know what garbage you're writing? 6. That loses them the surprise factor, they only managed to get far because everyone was too stunned by the sudden event. Also, looking back, it was Ryner who said it, and even Bertholt was surprised that he did it, plus Reiner doing things spontaneously has precedence, the first attack on the wall was also him spontaneously doing stuff. 5. http://darkerthanblack.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dolls It's written there at the first line. There are instances that dolls show emotion or action, but that's a plot flaw, because the instances that dolls on't even respond to pain counter proves the "dolls hide their emotion" train of thought and that they are killed with no response for self preservation (a base instinct). Contractors not having emotions are also addressed as well in the show with two instances. Havoc, who lost her contractor powers gained a sense of morality after the fact and she basically said she didn't want to go back to being a remorseless monster. The other protagonist of DtB2 is another example. She loses her emotions whenever she enters contractor mode. That basically says that there is a fundamental difference between normal humans and contractors which the show breaks willy nilly. 4. I addressed that at a previous point. Euphy is a purity sue who the creators decided would be so kind and good that the only way to remove her is to make Lelouch do something so completely out of character. So basically yeah, she's designed as a poorly thought of plot point. 3. Can't back your own words? Typical garbage response. And your idea for Development is for Ran to learn about morality? That's not development, that's practically a baseline for any sane individual. No, I'm saying that Ran and co has practically very little development compared to the length of the show, or heck even the length of the key episodes. 2. So this is the flow of events: the guy is invited to a once in a lifetime chance to gain money (let's assume he's that fucking dumb. Besides, he's poor anyway, so that can be let slide) Then he goes on a cruise, offered money for 10% interest every ten minutes (ok anybody with half a brain would know this is some fucked up syndicate shit). 10% per 10 minutes is a shitload high interest and wouldn't even float on any situation. He takes it because he's that fucking dumb, finds out the game is rock paper scissors. Wait, this is even dumber, the debt thing and rock paper scissors guarantees that at least 50% of the participants go into debt. Add the interest thing and that there's a chance that people could win multiple times guarantees even more than 50% will go to debt. He goes to debt. Typical. The n he finds out he'll be solved to slavery. This is in a whole new level of shittery, the syndicate shit, at least you can pay the debt but being turned to a slave. That's fucked up on a new level, this isn't some random syndicate shit. So he goes on a boohoo this is a mistake shit. He then gets saved by some random act of kindness Then his next thought of action is to join again next time? To a game that he knows has an astronomically low chance of him winning? Where he knows he'll be sold as a slave for losing. Not even the dumbest person would think that that's a smart move. 1. Ok this is the biggest garbage you spouted yet. She had Conan stuck and could've killed him any time she desires, and her being "psychologically damaged" means that the chances she would've done it would supposedly be higher. Murdering someone and putting them in a body is hard? Conan is basically 10 or so in the show. He's not a fucking overweight man, and throwing said bag into the garbage is so stupid that I'm surprised anyone would think that that would be a sensible course of action in a detective show. She lives in a mansion where she managed to keep her son's existence from the world for almost 15 years. She could've just dumped the body in another basement, pour cement on the body and be done with it. And murder is murder. Confessing to a heinous crime would lower your sentence? That's capital punishment in Japan with life sentence or death penalty, which would make said confession moot. 6: Eren was already told that Berthlod and Riner were titans. Why would they be surprised? They already have all the evidence they need. They could have kidnapped them while they were sleeping or drugged them. 7: 8: No just morality they're relationship developed they trusted each other more and they love each other more. I already said that other characters developed aswell ex: Shu , The FBI agent and so on. It's not the show's fault that you're ignoring these cons. 9: He was that desperate I already explained this. 10: Psychology damage isn't supposed to make sense humans do illogical actions when they're psychologically damaged. Do you think the police won't look for Conan lol? They'll if Ran files a missing report and they'll investigate the lady since conan was last seen with her. Yeah because no one knew about her son. The police won't look for someone they don't they exists.https://www.quora.com/How-lenient-is-the-Japanese-criminal-law-murder-for-example 10. Ran contacting about Conan being missing wouldn't make sense as this was in the first few chapters, they weren't that close and would just assume that Conan went back to his parents (who didn't even give Kogoro their info given that they're Shinichi's parents), so no, that idea is shot down before it can even happen. Cameras everywhere wasn't a thing in the 90s, which was when the story was made and the house was believed to be haunted, which makes contacting the police moot as well. Also there are times when murder gets past the police as well even in current times but were found out because of the rotting corpse smell from a neighbor's apartment, which I already addressed can be bypassed because a. mansion and b. pour cement. Conan went inside a haunted mansion where he found said woman, Ran wouldn't know shit about that. None of your points as well make it less likely that the woman couldn't have simply killed Conan. 9. Desperate doesn't justify stupid. You explained "he needs money for his family". being turned into a slave, a position which: will not grant you any chance to have money or possessions or even have ownership of your own body and anybody knows that that is the dumbest possible outcome anyone could have thought of. It's akin to handing himself to organ thieves rather than selling his own organs. No sane scenario would have led to his thinking that entering the game again would amount to anything. 8. Your whatever it is is broken. They trusted and loved each other more? Lmao, Ran's interaction with Shinichi is when he's in Conan form. She already trusted him very much from the start with a few exceptions, otherwise she wouldn't believe the "I have a very complicated mystery to solve" thing. Also I didn't say that there was 0 development from the start, you're clearly projecting here. 7. Also broken 6. And he was in disbelief. At that point of the show, there was also no indication that drugs were prevalent, which makes that line moot, and again, abducting him while he's full of energy would make it a fight on two fronts, from a not surprised survey corps and titan Eren, which I already iterated earlier. 5. Again stupid argument. Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy has nothing in common, does that mean that their relationship is even more flawed than Crista and Ymir's? Also what happened to the other numbers? Can't disprove them can't you? The DtB fanon was particularly stupid of you to assume. 2: They're is a difference between robbing a military base and risking your life gambling for money. A: and let his family die? Yep because that's better than risking your life. B: Robbing a store has a high chance of arrest and if he's arrested then nothing would change. Plus he doesn't have enough money to buy a gun. Robbing a bank with a knife is too stupid since the police have guns and they'll just shoot him. C: I already explained this like 3 times him selling his organs would just pay off the company debt. No he healed alot of people with serious injuries so yeah thanks for letting me find another plot hole. I like how you're trying to hate on Kaiji when Angel Beats is filled with plot holes. I'm not gonna list all of them I'll list the biggest three. Plus yeah he was desperate that he made a stupid decision of letting himself die. 1: How did otanshi survived for days with a serious life threatening injury? 2: Why was angel there before otanshi? 3:How did angel manage to participate in the base ball competition without disappearing? I already debunked about the old man who tricked Kaiji part I'm not gonna repeat myself. 1: He has no choice but to trust people there if he didn't trust anyone people could team up against him. Plus being with people is better than being alone since when you're alone you could get tricked easier. I already explained this aswell Kaiji was always good at gambling that's how he survived so far. Being betrayed will emotionally damaged a person so yeah nice counterpart there. Not really Kaiji only got betrayed at the end and even if you were right the place is filled with scumbags ofcourse they're gonna try and trick someone. 3:https://instagram.com/p/BgZYlx5DmkrzomkR2lLBrrq4Ot7K2Q6eR_3WYc0/ 4: What are you even trying to get achieve in this part? Also, she didn't trust him when they were kids. 5:https://instagram.com/p/BgZZQLcj6AmNw8dBcC9AR0TNMA5F2lwfPBHywI0/ 6: Distance love. They could have secretly looked at each other. Wdym was s? 1. Again, the woman was on the verge of stabbing Conan (Like knife at his throat near). She only rescinded because Conan blabbed. She locked her son for so long and wasn't fazed when he killed her husband. How does that make murder harder for her? 2. Robbing a military is an analogy(which I compared with robbing a store first since it expresses that odds are, you'll exhaust your choices before doing something with odds stacked against you with very slim prospect of success) It's meant to say that even if you're desperate, choosing the most retarded move wouldn't be your first line of agenda. 3. I don't get where this line of thought comes from? How did this suddenly come into? 1. You didn't debunk shit. My line of thought is that it is a deus ex machina, which in all intents and purpose it is. Unless you can't prove it's not (him taunting Kaiji was unnecessary, the slave cage was basically presented as the ultimate penalty when it was revealed, he did not need to put his bandage on a part of his body where there are least amount of feeling receptors, him showing off his money, which lacks for the amount needed for him to be repayed are all flaws that Kaiji exploited simply because a deus ex machina demands he magically get free out of the worst situation which was supposed to be escapable) And Kaiji knew they were scumbags. He literally had to go through that in arc 1, but he fell for the same trick in arc 2. The fact that he's stupid enough to fall for it again (anyone with a brain will do a solo thing if you've been tricked enough times) simply because the plot demands people to be assholes in the game becomes tiring and contrived considering the salt kaiji has. And I think you don't even know what a deus ex machina is. 3. And that is the plot hole. Why do dolls and contractors gain emotions when the plot demands it when the rules behind their nature says differently (the girl with the fire power loses and did lose her emotions completely while going through the contractor transformation, the big Havoc arc has her telling that she didn't want to go back to being an emotionless monster, there are instance were dolls are tortured/hurt but they don't even show pain, which is a more base response than actually attempting to be self active, S2 even had the co-protagonist show every time she uses her powers how turining into a contractor makes her lose her "humanity"). Do note that I've said earlier that I know that the dolls have instances where they did individual action, but that in itself does reinforce the show's plothole in what it presents as a basic premise. 4. You're the one who said that "them learning the value of life more" and "trusting each other more" is the basis for so called character development, which is totally retarded because a. valuing life is a base line for any sane character and b. the fact that Ran is totally okay with Shinchi being out for so long simply because "I have a very serious case" is her showing more trust than basically whatever shit you're saying as her development. This is basically what you've said (it's at post #121 and 118) No just morality they're relationship developed they trusted each other more and they love each other more . Ran and the kids learn the importance of life and the importance of things and develop throughout the story from being clueless kids to people who know what a life is worth. So, you're saying if a character has a bad life then the show is bad? That makes 0 sense. You were basically basing character development on things that a. They should've already had from the start, else their dysfunctional relationship wouldn't even be possible. and something that any sane person should have? What a load of garbage 5. This is your precise quote(#114) Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. And then you have a spiff about me claiming I'm an objective rater? And you're answer is that? I am referring to you in that ( you saying plot hole, development and what not), which tells that you claim objective standards but couldn't back them. Where the fuck did I even allude about muh objective standards? You wouldn't succeed in this line of whatever you're trying to attempt here. Scour the whole conversation and you'll see that I only gave some metrics at the start then followed with dismantling yours (a basics of debate, but you wouldn't know that, now would you? Wannabe debaters these days *sigh) 6. Oh wow, and here I thought your defense couldn't sink any lower. Crista and Ymir are in the same squad, that basically gives them more time to know each other than Ran's bestfriend ever did. And your defense in why to random people fall in love is "secretly look at each other" |
BrbMar 27, 2018 8:22 AM
Apr 3, 2018 6:14 AM
#142
Brb said: I just find him really fuckin annoyingRotatingDemon said: Brb said: Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: He loved her that much that's why he did what he did. Because if Conan told the police her son's sentence would be harsher. Yeah because her son hated his dad that much. Cowards murder people.Oh yeah because anyone can get away with a simple murder plan like that.2: The old man went back to get money for his family. Kaiji wasn't betrayed he was manipulated by the food sellers. Nice try tho. 3:Yeah you did a few quotes ago. He developed he learned the importance of life and how much he cares for the people around him. I already explained why Ran and Conan developed now you're just trying to stretch the arugment since you couldn't defend AOT or SAO. 3: They didn't kill Lelouch in s2 I rated s2 a 4/10 so yeah thanks for wasting your time pointing out flaws in an actual bad second season. He was giving an example of an order and if you're gonna criticize CG because of a moment then you might aswell criticize AOT and SAO that actually have characters that do Illogical things. You're right about Suzaku tho he was a bad character.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Most of the cases are believable. You're just aruging that they're not without any proof. So, having different locations is a bad thing now?ok. 2: The fat man and Kaiji agreed to have a draw so both of them can have equal amounts of stars. So,no Kaiji didn't became a genius out of nowhere. He was always good at gambling. Can you give me proof that the exact same people were in the exact same repeated game? If not then your arugment is flawed.I already explained the old man part and why it isn't a desu ex machina its not the anime's fault that you're ignoring my points. The old man came back because he was broke and he wanted money so he can spend it on his family. About the Kaiji being betrayed part 1: It only happened 2 times. 2: it's hard knowing who to trust in a ship filled with random people. Kaiji knows that being depressed is only gonna cause him more harm in this survival game.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: If he just shot him or stabbed him the police could have found the killer easily. I already explained why it's not forced drama and you're acting like all the cases in the series are just killers murdering for stupid reasons when in reality there are many killers who murdered for believable reasons. 2: He wanted Kaiji to know that he's gonna die because he didn't have money and money is the only way a person can use people. 3: Explain. 4:That's the anime 's problem for leaving so many things unanswered even if they were answered it would be a different season I'm talking about season 1 and season 2 not the upcoming seasons. Dolls were acting human throughout the show ex: Yen helping hei and the other doll protecting the gang guy. Badass character doesn't = bad character. Oh and Hei got beated by Amber so yeah he isn't unbeatable like you said. They showed Hei's human emotions throughout the story ex: him not killing the doll in the first few episodes, him being stubborn and not listening to amber and so on and so forth. The other characters had human personalities aswell ex: Huang who risked his life to save Hei, Misaki who was a loving justice women who wanted peace, Mao who didn't kill the cat because of his attachment to it and the time he spent in its body, and Amber who was willing to risk her life in order to let her kind live in peace. In one post you said there is 30% character development in Dc and in the previous post you said there isn't any character development. How was reiner able to write in a fast slash , why did she love Christina she didnt have reason to, Couldnt have reiner kidnapped eren without causing all that trouble? No the series was trying too hard to hide the fact that the Titans are humans.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: You're acting like all humans murder for good reasons which in reality many humans murder other people for stupid reasons.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:lol you're not even trying to deny my point. You're just laughing like an idiot. 2: How is it a desu ex machina? The guy had jewels in the bandage in his back and kaiji stole them. It isn't illogical plot armor. The illogical plot armor is in the end of Attack on Titan season 2 when eren somehow controlled the titans.3:Ok then mr objective rater try denying the flaws I mentioned that are in SAO in my first thread. O wait you can't because you know SAO is a 1/10 B).Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Yes because it's creative writing. Attack on Titan basically copied the same pramise of Parasyte the Maximum. The only difference is Parasyte the Maximum is good unlike Attack on Titan. The fact you're not complaining about Attack on Titan's horrible writing just shows you've a hypocrite. Attack on Titan had many flaws like heavily relying on shock factor, a super slow pace arc, annoying characters, bad dialogue, and it trying too hard to be a mystery both in season 1 and 2. On the point of character development not every character development has to have epic moments during developing.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 6: It doesn't change the fact that you're a hypocrite 5: I do because I didn't overrate SAO and AoT like you. 2: It shows both bad and good sides of humanity ex for bad side: the fat guy who cheated in the cards game and regretted nothing; ex for good side: the man who only participated in the survival game in order to save his family. Plus we're given way much time to get attached to the characters unlike in Aot. 1: You're clearly just speaking bs since the characters take awhile to develop some examples of character who took a long time to develop: Ran , Sara , Shu Akai , Conan etc. Revenge plot doesn't = forced drama. You're acting like Dc has the worst animation ever when infact the animation is pretty average.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1:Yeah 24 episodes wouldn't cover all the character development and events that happened in the show. As for forced drama like I said it's a drama from episode 1 and it gets you attached to the characters unlike Sword Art Online that dived into the drama before getting the viewer to care about the characters. 2: Kaiji gets you attached to the characters before killing them off unlike some shows like Attack on Titan , Sword Art Online , And Akame ga kill.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Nice ignore me telling you to explain how detective conan has forced drama. If they developed the whole cast under 50 episodes it would have been a rushed character development. How are the games forced drama lol? From episode 1 there has been drama in every single game Kaiji played so no it can't be classified as having forced drama. 2:Nice Ignore the flaw that Levi's team dying way too fast. As it for being a mystery it tried too hard making the female titan seem like unknown giving the impression of a mystery anime. 3: Yeah too bad that the characters in Attack on Titan are actually lame unlike in Darker than Black. 4: I said if a series is too slow then that'll count as a flaw I never said slow shows are bad. 5: Stop wearing the mask of the hypocrite when you're the one who started aruging with me saying I have a bad opinion because I said Trash Art Online is bad when it's actually bad B)Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: Detective Conan is a mystery drama episode from episode 1. How is the drama forced lol?Sword Art's Online drama came out of nowhere. Also who told you that no developes? They're plenty of characters who developed Conan, Ran, Shu, Ai etc. Kaiji is a drama gambling anime from episode 1 they didn't bring a drama out of nowhere trying to make us care for s character we no nothing about. Gekkan Shojo is a parody of shojo anime it doesn't need any character development. 2: Attack On Titan had plenty of shock factor some examples are: Levi's team getting killed way too fast, Eren's mom death, and eren getting eaten by a titan. (I know eren didn't die but it still counts as shock factor since the viewer is supposed to have the thought that eren is dead.) 3. Other flaws include not having a goal, tries too hard to be a mystery anime in both season 1 and season 2. Season 1 by killing eren and season 2 by hiding the fact that the black haired girl is a titan. Pacing is too slow in the Female Titan arc. Unlike able characters ex: Eren who yells all the time without any reason, Mikasa who has no personality, and Levi whose just there for thr plot.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: 1: I was talking about Sword Art Online. 2: I'm pretty sure Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and many other anime don't have plot holes in them. 3: The problem with AoT is it's heavy reliance on shock factor , the plot not having a main goal ,and many other flaws.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: Has countless plot holes, has a main character with no personality whatsoever, has no character development whatsoever, rushed second arc , forced drama, and rushed romance etc. That sounds like a trash anime to me.Black_Flower_1 said: Brb said: It's not my problem you can't accept that a show you like is trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Yeah because only smart people know that both these shows are trash. :)Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: I don't hate these shows because they're popular. I hate these shows because they're both trash.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan were one of the first animes I watched and I gave them both 1/10.Black_Flower_1 said: StarSwoardsman said: ~~Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan aren't gonna make you want to watch more anime~~Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and Death Note made me realize that there were Anime shows that were made for adults. But, Darker than Black and One Piece made me want to watch alot of more anime. Not true at all. Those two shows are the reason why Anime had a nice boom after 2013. They were very accessible and had good premises. Both good shows (yes, SAO is a good show) and Attack Titan in particular created a lot of excitement. Whenever I talk about anime and mention those two shows to non anime friends, their interest greatre pegged than say Cowboy Bebop (which is probably the biggest crossover hit once people watch it). I started a few friends on AOT and they are now watching more Anime. One finished AOT in one weekend. The point is that if you are new to Anime or haven't watched a ton, SAO and AOT are good shows to start out with as you'll watching something entertaining and realize that Anime has something to offer and then want to watch more. So what? SAO has it's haters, but still has gotten a lot of critical acclaim and has a huge fanbase. Attack On Titan is still a huge hit and has garnered comparisons to Breaking Bad in terms of it's writing and use of plot twists. I'd say that you are actually in the minority. But, I guess it's cool to hate a popular show. BTW, I gave season 1 of SAO a 7/10 and AOT season one a 10/10. That's your opinion. And you are in the VAST minority, even with SAO. >"Smart people" >calling SAO trash. yep I know a garbage opinion when I see one. OT. I'd rather people like specific anime (or genre) because that is more feasible. Having different tastes makes for a better discussion rather than everybody agreeing that anime is God's gift to mankind. Hmmm... >better than average art >started trends in the medium >has depth(for AoT) I don't think they're great, but at least I'm sensible enough to know that they have appeal, and not just handwave anything I dislike as simple "trash", which is an opinion that any smart person can do. That'z basically 99% of anime (hur dur no season 2), and doesn't even apply to AoT. I meant that plenty of those basically applies to most anime. From your list: Detective Conan (development, forced drama), Kaiji (forced drama, shock factor), Gekkan Shoujo (everything), for example. If you say that that makes it trash anime then you're just applying double standards now. And again, doesn't apply to AoT, which, apart from fake death from Eren, doesn't have much shock factor. Gore, yes, but shock factor? Nah. Also, it has a revolving plot, and what flaws, do elaborate? Anyways, what I'm saying is that immediately saying that x anime is trash when it obviously just isn't meant for you is hypocritical especially when the same arguments can be applied to those that you consider "far superior" Wat. Every other case in Detective conan involves forced drama. The development in the series could be summarized in less than 50 eps (out of the how long it is now) Kaiji Played the shock factor with how evil people and the games are. The games are basically forced drama. As for Gekkan being a parody, well Sakamoto as well, and it lacks the so called flaws that you found yet you think Gekkan is better As for shock factor, when Jean's friend died, everybody expected that the anime would have scenes like this, hence not "shock factor". If it was, then Kaiji is basically shock factor palooza since basically every game had an extra side to it, and sometimes even multiples. As for being a mystery, lol, everyone and their mothers knew that Annie is totally the female titan, the only problem is the ones inside the show did not (since we aren't sharing their POV). Unlikable character is not a flaw. It's a personal opinion, which you'll find, lots of people don't share. And saying that it is would be amusing considering how highly you treat Darker than Black. And you talk about slow pacing as if it's a bad thing when "waves hand" Detective Conan. I smell double standards. 1. Detective Conan can be squeezed into less than 50 episodes (heck even 24 eps.) and nothing of importance will be lost. Saying that they can't develop the characters in less than 50 eps is blatantly wrong since majority of the cases don't even have character development. Ran almost meeting Shinichi and Hattori's slow af relationship, and other side characters' as well does not justify that kind of length. It is forced drama cause every other case has some petty excuse like x person sold muh sword or gave me a cat that suddenly ends up in murder. Gosho might make good mysteries half the time, but his character intentions are totally garbage. Kaiji is even more forced drama as it likes to amp up the poor victim card and just drops side characters like nothing (old man he saved from arc 1 lol), just so it could justify the cruel world stint. 2. Characters dying fast in an action show that has already shown that characters can die in said show. Oh no, how illogical. It's not like Kaiji (cough skyscraper bridge stint) does that despite not being alluded in prior arc. 3-4. And you've basically shown your double standards. Nice. 5. If you're gonna argue semantics on what makes a show "trash" at least be consistent at it. After all, it is what smart people do. That's the flaw you've been showing. You claim to hide under the guise of intelligence to choose which shows are good or not yet cannot even use impartiality in what makes something good. 5: I actually know if a show is good and bad unlike you I don't have trash taste. 6: Nice Ignore me telling you to stop criticizing me for trashing on his opinion when you yourself trashed on my opinion 6. I'm trashing on your opinion because you put it on the guise of "smart people are x". 5. Actually know if a show is good or bad: gives metrics on them, not even impartial on said metrics. Kek 2. Kaiji lets you get attached? In what way? By making them symphatetic and then bastardizing them moments before death? In giving a 2 minute expo in how they got into the game mess and doing it was a mistake and yet when they were given another game to try, surprise surprise, they're in it again, only to be offed yet another 2 minutes later? In making another bs secret part two of said games just so that they could "amp the stakes"? Even mc being saved in arc 1 is a crapton of bs. 1. Detective Conan is 99% filler with about 30 seconds of development in not even half of those. Not really the most useful development metric. As for events, the plot necessary ones up to chapter 800 are basically: Shinichi going to Goro, parents finding out, new gadgets, sherry, hattori, sherry's sister, the other detective going after the black organization (and fake death). As for forced drama, yet again: the mysteries themselves. A lot of the murders involved some strange murder revenge plot from 6 years ago or some bullshit. And with the series being composed mostly of said filler, poor quality revenge plots become so passe. 1. Let me get this straight. You think that murders where the murderer actually: tries to loose weight to kill somebody just so after 4 years during a reunion they could shove the person he murdered person's head into a fake stomach, or cases where somebody tries to kill someone else because they: gave you a cat, her father caught your criminal father, sold your sword, etc. actually make good writing? LMAO. 'Cause that's basically the schtick with Conan's Fillers. That's what I'm saying as poor quality revenge plot, and DC is made of that in spades. Takes a while to "develop" characters. Arcs that end with Shinichi "talking" to Ran on the phone or them having a 30 second time together constitutes "taking time to develop characters" yet 24 episodes of an anime you dislike is too long? K Magic double standards strikes again. 2. And it aggrandizes that fact. Just because it does it differently doesn't mean it's not bs. To emphasize the fact, mc wouldn't even have gone out during the first arc if the old man didn't blab about having jewels in his person. 5. Kek, I don't think I overrate SAO and AoT, in fact I dislike the latter, but people like you who claim "intelligence" in saying what decides quality by using some kind of metric but can't even be consistent on them are 6. hypocrites. 2: Kaiji needed more money ofcourse he was willing to go try again. He was that desperate to get rich. 3: Yes you overrated both of them. 6 for SAO is too high. 7: Thanks for proving my point that you're a bad debater 1. >"It's creative writing. Lol. The fact that I am not debating about AoT's bad points is because basically what you've labeled as "bad points" are ones that also apply to your so called good anime, and I was expecting a decent argument (which so far you've been very disappointing in) for you to prove that AoT is "shit". 2. How does that even connect? I said Kaiji being saved in arc 1 is a deus ex machina (here, what do you know, an actual plausible argument, which apparently you lack the mental acuity to present) 3. And you don't know how I work my system, yet attack something I have yet to put an objective standard. Logical fallacies abound. 7. Good debater my ass, you've yet to prove a point apart from your faulty usage of double standards. 3: I'm a better debater than you lol. You ignored many points I made about both SAO and Attack on Titan. 1. If you think that random 6 years in the planning extremely contrived revenge plots(stabbing someone on the street would have been quicker) that falls flat easily, and murders for stupid reasons (where on earth do you see someone killing another person for gifting them a cat) are what you consider "creative writing" then that's on you. Nice blind favoritism at its finest, only goes to show well *waves hand. 2. Him telling Kaiji about the jewels (kek so necessary, tell some random stranger that you have riches is begging to be mugged) and that there was no build up whatsover nor was it used beyond arc 1 is what's the deus machina there. Do you not even know what Deus ex Machina is? 3. I'm not arguing with your points about SAO and AoT because the examples you gave are present in the anime you think are superior, so unless you're gonna deny that they aren't there, then you're basically doing double standards (which won't fly in any "debate", particularly with "smart people"), here are those: Slow Progression (present in Conan, even worse actually, 100 episodes, 1 phone call, wow. That's totally a good character progress, it basically does nothing except to prove to Ran that Shinichi is safe) One dimensional character (DtB, the contractor plot even enforces and embraces one dimensional characters) Forced drama (again Conan, those I killed somebody because I caught him cheating, but will use an extremely intricate plot that somehow I managed to think but didn't think to just hire a killer or stab said person in the street because reasons or Hattori is tsundere for his gf but not gf moments, and Kaiji with false sympathisizing the victims of the game) Shock Factor (Kaiji kek) No development (Ran and Conan and Hattori and what's her name and Ran's bestfriend and the judo guy are still stuck in relationship limbo in how long is it now?) Unlikable characters (that's objective now? wut, besides, the kid troupe in Conan is annoying af for a lot of the fanbase) Bad dialogue(what? what constitutes that. If you're making dialogue a point then every anime is shit compared to the likes of Seikai no Monshou) Not every character has to be overblown (or epic moments) (kek, tell that to Kaiji again) Trying too hard to be a mystery (If the female titan, then kek, that was so obvious, it's not a mystery. The mystery in the series are:what the titans are, secrets of the wall, and what's in the basement. Those are central to the plot and saying the series attempting to reach those goals is wrong is like saying Black organization in Conan is forced) So unless you manage to prove that these are invalid points (cause it's better is not an argument), then you're basically fighting your own opinions. 3. Better debater? Do read what you have written, you've yet to prove your own opinions (ironically) wrong. Oh and PS, you are the one who set up the standards and can't even back up why. 2: That guy hated Kaiji's trustworthy personality he wanted Kaiji to die knowing the only reason he's dying is because of his trust. 3: Tell me which anime I rated above a 5 thats filled with massive flaws. 4: Slow progression doesn't = horrible progression. The characters in Darker than Black have human personalities. How are thry one dimensional? Like I said before Detective Conan is a drama anime from the first episode and are you saying just because of two or one episodes are meh then the whole show is meh? I already explained why Kaiji doesn't have shock factor it's not my problem that your brain can't process my explanation. Lmao just a few posts ago you were saying the character development is slow and now you're saying there isn't any character development. Attack on Titan had barely any explanations on what was going on some examples are in season 2 they never explained why some of the survey guys were going to that village, why the titans were able to see at night, why the black haired girl wanted to save christina risking her life, how she manged to escape the church guys ropes , why reiner told eren about him being the titan that killed eren's parents despite him knowing that he killed eren's mom and eren's personality , or how reiner was able to write in annie's hand with a slash. The unlike able character part is because of they're generic personalities and illogical decisions. Yeah because everything in Kaiji is epic it's not like it doesn't have normal moments like when the fat guy tricked Kaiji or when kaiji tricked the fat guy. Trying too hard to be a mystery is when they were trying too hard to hide the fact that titans are humans although it was obvious from season 1, trying too hard to hide the fact that reiner was a titan, and them trying too hard to hide the fact that the walls are made out of titan skin. 1. Ah yes, and in reality, people make six years in the planning revenge plot, that could only be started in the off-chance that some of your old acquaintances want to have a reunion in the middle of the woods and would always make some extremely complex locked door plot rather than just stab or shoot said person while they're alone and hide the body afterwards? Yes. Makes total sense /s PS. About that one don't make it about reality vs not, that's already moot, I'm talking about how the cases have some horribly shallow reasoning behind them (come on, if you're gonna be murdering and doing it in an extremely covert fashion, at least make the reason be deep seated rather than some shallow shit), ergo forced drama. 2. And how does telling Kaiji that his buddies will rescue him because he has something they need necessary for that? He could've just mocked Kaiji, end of case, that doesn't abscond it of being a deus ex machina. 3. Kaiji, Conan, Geass, Rainbow, Gurren 4. "Have human personalities". Dolls are basically walking doormats, contractors have no emotions whatsoever, Hei's whole schtick is being a siscon, mysterious and unbeatable. Because that's obviously what constitutes as totally human. At least in S2 they made him actually relatably human, but that season was plagued by unkillable recurring antagonists and shoehorning the main role to a character nobody even liked. >One or two episodes of Conan, Conan is predominantly filler, and they are at the same level of quality most of the time, " one or two episodes" doesn't even cut it. You're the one who argued both no development and slow development at the same time. I never placed any argument of my own, but only showed how flawed yours are back to you so kek to that. The questions you posed are soon answered in AoT (again, plot central themes), apart from black haired girl saving Cristina (she's a lesbian iirc, in love with Cristina)+survivor's guilt. Reiner being able to write on Annie's hand hinges on the fact that they've known each other for a long time. Him triggering Eren was meant to provoke him (titan now, can't do it later). Again, unlikable characters is a matter of opinion. I hate Shinji's guts, does that mean Evangelion is immediately trash? The titans being human are also plot central. Plus, you're forgetting the fact that the characters in the show do not share the audience's vantage point (just like telling people in the 1850's that they would be able to talk to someone in another time almost simultaneously would be possible in 50 years time would be unfathomable to them). Your points are overly flawed once again. You're trying too hard to avoid my criticism on Attack On Titan and Sword Art Online and I like how you're criticizing DtB saying it has bad characters when you rated it an 8/10. 1. Because half the cases are indeed for stupid reasons and are not believable. Particularly, the kid troupe cases, most cases involving the "out in a manor in the woods or in an a secluded location(island, tower, etc) thing. So yes, it is forced drama, because to make an elaborate plan like that takes heavy intent, which does not fit with just some low happenstance that often is the reason for the cases. 2-3. Kaiji. Flaw 1. After him being tricked the first time, he suddenly becomes a genius in the rock paper game? Sure very believable. 2. The game itself. Lots of flaws, not gonna elaborate. One glaring flaw is that the time wasn't the first time that the game happened, which means other people would have thought of his plan and should have capitalized off his scheming rather than the "see what happens" approach. 3. The old man. He could have simply mocked Kaiji minus the telling the "I will be saved by my comrades schtick", blatant usage of Deus ex Machina. 4. The old guy he just saved. He just saved him from forced slavery. Lots of drama ensued, and guess what. He comes back at arc two. I mean stupidity should have its limits 5. Kaiji trusting and then being betrayed. Lather rinse repeat. It gets old. 6. Kaiji turning from meek depressed sod to a complete badass in the drop of the hat. He doesn't even have the bipolarity to defend this. And so on. Seriously, the only reason that Kaiji gets away with it is because it looks different from your usual fare. For Conan: the list is plenty. Some of the non-specific ones: some episodes fail to be actual engaging mysteries. Mysteries should allow you to solve the case along the same vein as the characters, but some cases in Conan don't even give you the threads of the case. the non-Canon/Canon detachment of movie vs series. That you can summarize Ran and Conan's relationship in one simple sentence from the span of almost 900 episodes now. Yeah. That's some totally high quality development right there. Geass. Lelouch didn't die at end of S1. Euphemia. Suzaku. nuff said. DtB: I'll bring back your own statement to you. Dolls were acting human Their whole existence is based on being empty shells. The doll saving Hei is basically a flaw because it defies the show's premise simply because a supposedly non-emotional being has the hots for Hei. Contractors on the other hand lose their emotions and act logically, which the show subverts again and again. The flame girl (after completely being a contractor) and the british dude and Amber are the only contractors that got enough screen time that are not remotely flawed in any way. 4. DtB shares those same problems (not answering some major questions) but that doesn't seem to stop you from glorifying it. Again, if you're gonna argue some imaginary objective standard, prove that the shows you like don't suffer from the same flaws. She loves Cristina because. If you cannot find flaw in murder logic, how the f do you find flaws in love logic. Reiner couldn't kidnap without the whole mess because he can titanize. If he just kidnaps Eren and the group finds out, they'll have to fight the unsurprised elites+eren. He had the element of surprise at that moment hence he did it. Kek. I never said 30% character development in Conan, I said 30 seconds, which in a show that long, basically amounts to nothing. Now you're just grasping. 5. My score to DtB and this line of query aren't mutually inclusive. You're pointing out some kind of fantasy objective reasoning (which you keep breaking quite blatantly) in what makes a show good which I am disproving (for someone who claims good debater, doesn't even know what makes one. disgusting). 3: Enaging is completely subjective since what might be engaging to you might not be engaging to others so stop trying to act like you're a objective rater. It's not the shows fault if you can't solve the mysteries in it. You're acting like Ran and Conan are the only characters who develop lol. In reality many characters develop Shu , Agasa , Ai , And Mourie (this is obviously not all of them since they're too many characters that develop) 4: Lelouch was shot near the head not in the head. Explain instead of trying to act smart by naming two characters. 5: The dolls had feelings but people thought they don't because they rarely show them. She loves christina because they have the same past? Oh like that's not been done before. Reiner could have done that when eren was sleeping and no the group took way too long arrive so he could have done that when eren was awake. 6: Dude if you're not gonna explain how your ratings work you're the last person to complain about my ratings. 1. > Just from first first 30 chapters: Idol Locked room mystery: Guy suicided because the girl (that he broke up with in the first place) did not recognize him, and made it look like homicide. Not only is the reasoning shallow, but nobody is that bitter in real life. Suicide from depression is one thing but fake homicide just to implicate someone? You're already dead by then, why the fuck would you give a damn (unless you're extremely deranged, in which case, I doubt, you'd manage to make a fake homicide plot in the first place). Haunted mansion. Completely flawed. Mother who manages to devise a plot to keep his son from admitting a crime suddenly changes her mind simply because Conan says so? Ok, so let's just ignore the fact that his son would have properly told that he wants to admit the crime for the past 15 years, that she's resolved enough to make this elaborate ruse to escape justice and has been doing it for 16 years, and her resolves crumples from a simple statement? Plus the fact that she wasn't even shocked by her son murdering her husband. You know, cause that kind of stuff obvioussssssly happens everyday. Monthly present. Again, guy intent on murder crumples upon resolution. He planned it for 3 years out of pure spite. Guy like that should be off his rocker, and he chickens out at last minute. That's just the first 30 chapters. 3 of the 8 arcs are heavily flawed and if you count minor flaws, that would be even bigger. Most cases my ass. I'm referring to the fact that most different locations are the ones with heavy flaws. They tend to be isolated places and the murderers go out of their way to find a witness and the commit a murder, when: they're in a fucking isolated place. Just kill the person and dump the body in a ditch. Less effort, and less convoluted. 2. Guess what, Kaiji is also betrayed in the 2nd arc, and after his fuck these normies moment in between arcs too! Also you're not answering why the fact the old man he saved went into the game again. So are you just gonna ignore that? Predictable double standards are predictable. 3. I never once said I am an objective rater. You're the one who acts like shows are garbage because of some imaginary standard (the moment you said "smart people rate x way"). And lol at Agasa "developing". He's basically science guy and that's it. If they can't develop Conan and Ran in a big way from 900 eps (oh and the main characters by the way), then that says something about so called "development" 4. Didn't kill Lelouch at end of CG1. That was flawed. Rebels weren't winning pre Lelouch, what makes them think that letting Lelouch live was a smart move. And don't give the excuse "because CC is still out there " me, Lelouch's father didn't give a fuck about her for centuries. What would make him suddenly gain interest now? Euphy: they made her such a total purity sue that the only way to remove her was for Lelouch to make a joke (which is totally out of character given his pragmatic nature) and that specific joke (his original idea was for her to injure him) and for his geass to activate at that specific moment? I mean this is more garbage than what you're claiming Ryner's case to be. Suzaku: flip flopping Suzaku, always changing sides. He's too flawed to even count the number of bs he's built on. 5. Nope dolls don't have feelings. Emotionless mediums are basically their description. Just like logical beings are to contractors. That was a rule that the premise set up, you can't argue that, and you trying otherwise is basically red herring. Christina. And now you're questioning usage? Jeez, you fucking gave Conan an 8. More than eighth of the cases uses locked door mysteries. You shouldn't be one to complain about usage of storytelling techniques. Reiner: I already explained earlier. You trying to argue with a different angle of attack on the same premise is getting exasperating. 6. I'm not questioning your ratings. I'm questioning the consistency of your standards. Different things. I don't care if you gave everything 1s if what your "objective" standard to it follows through. But nooo, you have to claim standards like tons of plotholes and shit which holds true to your so called "great" anime but can't even defend why they're not, which is totally hypocritical. And putting my ratings in this part of the argument. Holy you're even more inept than I give you credit for. Need I remind you that: I put first factors that make SAO and AoT not shit (better than average art, trendsetter and depth) which you completely ignored and put forth your own arguments: (development, characters, forced drama, plot holes) which I rebutted. In case you aren't bright enough to notice, I'm arguing on the premise of your argument (which is what any solid debater would do) So you're the one who laid the mat on what standards to point out and now you're complaining that I'm arguing with you on the said standards you set? Not only is your opinion garbage, but you're a shit tier debater. PS. Also notice that I never complained anything about your ratings, I only said your opinion was shit, and that you're standards for defining quality are skewed. Didn't notice that as well, huh? 5: That's what most people thought dolls were but in actuality they have emotions. Come on man you're saying I'm a bad debater and you can't defend your beloved AOT. I'm disappointed but not surprised. Different angles doesn't = bad points. 6:Dude lol you ignored most of my counter points of these following anime: Kaiji (You never tried aruging back about the old man who tricked Kaiji or the shock factor part),AOT(you only said that most of them stuff will get explained in season 2 even tho those stuff make the show looks like it has plot holes),SAO(all my points), and Darker Than Black ( Me explaining how the characters had human characteristics) 7:Hypocrite. You just said I had bad taste because I rated Detective Conan an 8. AOT's and SAO's art isn't really anything special. They're tons of anime that have better art styles and were aired before or during the same year SAO aired. AOT deep? lol and the earth is flat. AOT barely divided into the plot (I'm talking about the anime not the manga). I already countered your points that's not my problem if you don't accept them. You're acting like I'm not defending my opinion and that I'm ignoring you when infact you're the one who can't come up with any counter points to my last counter points. 7. You're obviously not good at this aren't you? I called you out on saying that Ymir liking Crista, because a. You said "liking someone for reasons is bs" while you praise Conan which suffers from the same flaws, and then have a spot about liking someone for plot reasons is flawed because it's overused, which again, is a common thing in Conan. Also, I did not call your taste bad, I called your rating system questionable, because you give certain points for quality, which you don't even follow. You can check the thread train on this, and this shows how laughably bad you are at this. 6. , first DtB. Its in universe rule states that dolls are empty mediums and contractors are emotionless logical thinkers. So them having human qualities is a massive plothole since it is a basic premise, which the show breaks, and at the same time, half the cast follow it, which turns them into non-human. There both points addressed and proved the double flaw. AoT. I explained Ymir, which you handwaved as poor choice of literary device (not a flaw, and it calls into question the validity of your standards) Ryner, which I already explained, and I'm adding this: they're not tactical geniuses, so a very elaborate plot is out of the question. Them kidnapping Eren after beating him appears to them as the plan with the most chances of success. I mean their plan to get the first titan in the first place is basically sneak into the army and hope that things fall into place. So there, no flaw, just characters being grounded in the reality of how their characters function. Kaiji. Ok here is my original point. I said him getting out of the slavery situation is a deus ex machina. Here is the meaning of deus ex machina. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deus%20ex%20machina Him failing was basically unsolvable until the man came, did we have any prior indication that this would happen? No. Was Kaiji saved from a random act? Yes. Was it alluded previously or used afterward? No. Ergo deus ex machina. It was the first major thing that pissed me off with Kaiji so I would know and you telling that he did it to egg Kaiji on does not even eliminate the fact that it is a deus ex machina. 5. At least 3 people in the show said that about the dolls. It even fucking says it in the wiki. So what now you're gonna argue with the shows premise or make some random fanon shit? That's fucking stupid even at your standards. 4. You still didn't counterprove about Euphy (she's basically a plot point, with how she was used) and Suzaku sheenanigans. 3. Quote it. you have the whole thread train above you. Again, all my arguments are based on your points (the basics of any debate, countering the opponent's premise) so me saying "hurr durr I'm an objective rater" would have been both an appeal to novelty and a red herring. Not something I'd rely on. Barely any new knowledge about Ran and Conan has been brought out aside from the key episodes, you explained why they are developed how? The only reasons you provided is "Ran and Conan cannot be developed in less than 50 eps" and you basically alluded nil of how said development happens. PS. Aside from the fact that Ran likes Conan, she has friends, her parents are estranged, she know judo and is in relationship hell, has there been any other character defining moment for her? 2. Which is precisely why it is garbage, he knew he wasn't going to win in the first place and knew the games are fucked up. It brought nothing new to the show and was basically an appeal to emotion nothing else, which makes it doubly bad. Then there was this whole drama moment in arc1 and suddenly he's confident enough to do it again in arc2? Selling his eyes, marrow, liver and kidneys at the same time would have made more sense than said action. Food sellers? What? I'm talking about the bridge scene, where he let 1 guy go first and then guy goes fuck you (surprise surprise) before falling to his doom (which, coincidentally is another bs moment). The physics of the air inside building too is flawed as well. But that's a different matter and a different type of flaw. Your counter argument for 1 is laughably bad. How does framing someone (of murder from your own suicide no less) equate to love? And the mother turned herself in because Conan telling would be bad? What? She was intent on killing Conan before the whole "turn yourself in" spiel. Also he mudered his father. That's basically lifetime imprisonment, which makes your "Conan might turn them in" argument moot. Why were you arguing about the son's side anyway? I never said nor implied I doubt the son's premise, you're basically pulling a red herring (you're reallly bad at this aren't you). I mean the whole flow was son killed dad (meh, not important) mon finds out, not shocked in the least (requires holding huge suspernsion of belief) locks son in mansion for fifteen years (sketchy execution, but not really flawed) all the while the son is saying he should go to prison (very important part) then Conan goes in, discovers everything, which the mother finds, mother intent on murdering Conan (which she could have done on the spot) then Conan says that they should turn son in, which suddenly makes mother agree. So somehow the 15 years of locking her son does not make her yield and him pleading all the while, but Conan says it and she agrees, how does that make sense? And what the fuck does "oh yeah anybody can get away with a simple murder plan like that"? Tbh, I didn't really care much until he suddenly spouted that smart people have a specific criterion in rating anime, doesn't follow it and then dares mention "debate" which my uni debate background wouldn't let pass unchallenged (I do admit that I could have not mocked him, but any person who puts forth the concept of debate in a discussion and does not follow it deserves a whooping in my book). |
Apr 3, 2018 7:28 AM
#143
I still don't understand the obsession some people have with practically evangelizing anime to people, doing things like trying to determine the best anime to try to sell to newcomers and being so worried about things such as mainstream acceptance and normalization and the breadth of an audience it can reach. Trying to convert people into being anime fans as well. Like, it's something I feel like I see people try to bring up a lot, but I don't understand why we do it really. People who stick around long enough hear of it somehow and if they're interested in it they'll check it out on their own. Be it on the internet or just some guy at work/some kid at school, or maybe they watched and liked it as a kid when some shite 4kids dub showed on their cartoon station or something, there's a variety of ways for people to potentially take interest in it instead of just some fuckin' twat walking up to them and trying to sell it to them. If they want to be shallow and say it's all just fanservice and treat that like it's even a problem or complain about "but don't people who like anime do things like Naruto run and what have you" or whatever cringe meme typically associated with anime fans then they can go fuck themselves, we don't need to worry about them. This desire for popularity, normalization, and this desire for social acceptance of this medium feels both like it's too deep rooted in psyche for me to really feel comfortable bitching about sometimes, but I strongly dislike how focused people can be on appealing to and selling it to potential audience over existing audience to the point where they seem to be on their own little crusade to purge anything that might make people look bad by just hurling insults at anything and anyone that goes out of line and likes these things that they're blaming for why normies look down on them. Fuckin' fight them over it for wrongly lumping you in with a group you're not in, don't go screeching at the guy with a body pillow or the guy with a katana or whoever you want to misdirect your anger onto because you're too spineless to actually acknowledge the idea that the fault probably lies with the other person being a presumptious jackass and not with you or the people you're going to turn around and bitch out. Stand up to them and don't be a little pussy, for fuck's sake. Or maybe, on a less presumptive note with a more positive outlook, it's rooted less in desire for social acceptance and instead rooted in simply really liking something and wanting to show everybody. I mean, that's great and all, there are things I really love in anime that I never stop talking about, like Run - plaster her all over my wall, own cards and little heart shaped snowglobes of her, she's really something I love as weird as it may seem to many - but, y'know, just because I appreciate something doesn't mean that the world is going to. Recommendations into a medium should be something "hey I think you might like this," not "hey I really like this," and definitely be more rooted in thinking it's a show the person might like and not just trying to sell anime as a medium to somebody. Which is why I kind of fucking hate it when people start going on about "what anime is best for beginners?" as if they're trying to sell anime itself on people and not individual products the person in question might appreciate. Like, basically, it shouldn't be about getting people you know into anime, it should be about you knowing of a single show they might like because you know their tastes. Actually try to tell them about something they might like themselves, rather than just trying to be a selfish twat and get them into your interests for the sake of evangelizing your interests to people. Be fucking considerate to them, y'know? Either way, I don't get the obsession with trying to get people into anime, nor can I say I like the focus on trying to sell it to non-fans that I see a lot of people put on it. It's their decision to look into it or not, not yours. If you know of something they might like, and isn't just on your "best entry-level anime" list, then by all means, try to let them know about it, but make sure it's on them because you know them and know what they like and not just some vague fucking catch-all you're using to try and show anime to people. I'm not going to go trying to show my roommate fucking TLR just because I love it, not because it's ecchi mind you, I've still got my Run pictures plastered all over my parts of the WG, but because knowing the types of things he tends to like I don't think it's for him. I'm also not going to try to get my roommate in through FMA:B, because again, I don't think it'd be something he'd like. If I might go out of my way a bit, I do think this huge worry for what non-fans think and trying to get as many people into anime as possible is one of the parts of this fanbase I find the cringiest. Like, with prudes who want to eliminate ecchi or people who act a bit pretentious or get too excited and fanboy-like or speak in pure weebspeak, none of those things really make me cringe. They can piss me off sometimes, or a lot of the time rather, but it's not what I'd call cringy. The weird and extreme emphasis on what non-fans thing? It just seems super insecure to me at points, albeit that might be a bit presumptive on my end. Give me the fat neckbeard fuck who openly shares pictures of himself with his waifu and his katana doing the naruto run or whatever, over some fuckwit constantly trying to justify himself to people who look down on him and makes nothing but self-depricating jokes and shit about how much what he likes is trash any day of the week, y'know, meme about how much anime is shit and whatnot. The latter looks way more pathetic to me. |
ManabanApr 3, 2018 7:37 AM
Apr 3, 2018 10:07 AM
#144
Manaban said: Amen, brother. Quoted for agreement.I still don't understand the obsession some people have with practically evangelizing anime to people, doing things like trying to determine the best anime to try to sell to newcomers and being so worried about things such as mainstream acceptance and normalization and the breadth of an audience it can reach. Trying to convert people into being anime fans as well. Like, it's something I feel like I see people try to bring up a lot, but I don't understand why we do it really. People who stick around long enough hear of it somehow and if they're interested in it they'll check it out on their own. Be it on the internet or just some guy at work/some kid at school, or maybe they watched and liked it as a kid when some shite 4kids dub showed on their cartoon station or something, there's a variety of ways for people to potentially take interest in it instead of just some fuckin' twat walking up to them and trying to sell it to them. If they want to be shallow and say it's all just fanservice and treat that like it's even a problem or complain about "but don't people who like anime do things like Naruto run and what have you" or whatever cringe meme typically associated with anime fans then they can go fuck themselves, we don't need to worry about them. This desire for popularity, normalization, and this desire for social acceptance of this medium feels both like it's too deep rooted in psyche for me to really feel comfortable bitching about sometimes, but I strongly dislike how focused people can be on appealing to and selling it to potential audience over existing audience to the point where they seem to be on their own little crusade to purge anything that might make people look bad by just hurling insults at anything and anyone that goes out of line and likes these things that they're blaming for why normies look down on them. Fuckin' fight them over it for wrongly lumping you in with a group you're not in, don't go screeching at the guy with a body pillow or the guy with a katana or whoever you want to misdirect your anger onto because you're too spineless to actually acknowledge the idea that the fault probably lies with the other person being a presumptious jackass and not with you or the people you're going to turn around and bitch out. Stand up to them and don't be a little pussy, for fuck's sake. Or maybe, on a less presumptive note with a more positive outlook, it's rooted less in desire for social acceptance and instead rooted in simply really liking something and wanting to show everybody. I mean, that's great and all, there are things I really love in anime that I never stop talking about, like Run - plaster her all over my wall, own cards and little heart shaped snowglobes of her, she's really something I love as weird as it may seem to many - but, y'know, just because I appreciate something doesn't mean that the world is going to. Recommendations into a medium should be something "hey I think you might like this," not "hey I really like this," and definitely be more rooted in thinking it's a show the person might like and not just trying to sell anime as a medium to somebody. Which is why I kind of fucking hate it when people start going on about "what anime is best for beginners?" as if they're trying to sell anime itself on people and not individual products the person in question might appreciate. Like, basically, it shouldn't be about getting people you know into anime, it should be about you knowing of a single show they might like because you know their tastes. Actually try to tell them about something they might like themselves, rather than just trying to be a selfish twat and get them into your interests for the sake of evangelizing your interests to people. Be fucking considerate to them, y'know? Either way, I don't get the obsession with trying to get people into anime, nor can I say I like the focus on trying to sell it to non-fans that I see a lot of people put on it. It's their decision to look into it or not, not yours. If you know of something they might like, and isn't just on your "best entry-level anime" list, then by all means, try to let them know about it, but make sure it's on them because you know them and know what they like and not just some vague fucking catch-all you're using to try and show anime to people. I'm not going to go trying to show my roommate fucking TLR just because I love it, not because it's ecchi mind you, I've still got my Run pictures plastered all over my parts of the WG, but because knowing the types of things he tends to like I don't think it's for him. I'm also not going to try to get my roommate in through FMA:B, because again, I don't think it'd be something he'd like. If I might go out of my way a bit, I do think this huge worry for what non-fans think and trying to get as many people into anime as possible is one of the parts of this fanbase I find the cringiest. Like, with prudes who want to eliminate ecchi or people who act a bit pretentious or get too excited and fanboy-like or speak in pure weebspeak, none of those things really make me cringe. They can piss me off sometimes, or a lot of the time rather, but it's not what I'd call cringy. The weird and extreme emphasis on what non-fans thing? It just seems super insecure to me at points, albeit that might be a bit presumptive on my end. Give me the fat neckbeard fuck who openly shares pictures of himself with his waifu and his katana doing the naruto run or whatever, over some fuckwit constantly trying to justify himself to people who look down on him and makes nothing but self-depricating jokes and shit about how much what he likes is trash any day of the week, y'know, meme about how much anime is shit and whatnot. The latter looks way more pathetic to me. |
Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
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