| There's generally two sides of this topic. The people asking fr games to be playable by anyone. The people who thinks that gameplay should also be treated as a skippable cutscene. Casual gamers who go for the story more than the gameplay. There's also those who call for easy modes for people with disabilities. And there's the other side of the coin. The hardcore gamers who thinks that there's a sense of accomplishment in completing a hard game. The struggle itself to beat a game is what makes games worth investing all their time and effort in. Personally, while I fall in the former camp of casual gamers who prioritize story over gameplay I wouldn't want to cheapen a game's experience because of it. And I wouldn't fault a developer for having a vision of a game designed to be just hard like Dark Souls and games as such. I wouldn't certainly call it a flaw like other game reviewers do. I will simply say that that particular game isn't for me and if there's a story in a game, would simply go watch a walkthrough or read up on it. Granted, if I get too frustrated with the gameplay's difficulty. What do you think though? |
| I think there's no fault in adding a difficulty setting for every game, even games like the Soul's series. While the experience will be completely shit if you tone down the difficulty, why does it matter if there is one. Companies are out to get money, as long as the the Easy difficulty doesn't make my Hard difficulty of Dark souls change, then I don't really care if people get the option to change their difficulty. Yeah, it cheapens the game experience, but if you want to play it that way, then its your loss. |
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Elegade said: I think there's no fault in adding a difficulty setting for every game, even games like the Soul's series. While the experience will be completely shit if you tone down the difficulty, why does it matter if there is one. Companies are out to get money, as long as the the Easy difficulty doesn't make my Hard difficulty of Dark souls change, then I don't really care if people get the option to change their difficulty. Yeah, it cheapens the game experience, but if you want to play it that way, then its your loss. There's also the question of what the game developer's vision for the game they created. I would like to think that the Souls developers wouldn't want that since it wouldn't be the Souls they thought of. |
Joven said: Elegade said: I think there's no fault in adding a difficulty setting for every game, even games like the Soul's series. While the experience will be completely shit if you tone down the difficulty, why does it matter if there is one. Companies are out to get money, as long as the the Easy difficulty doesn't make my Hard difficulty of Dark souls change, then I don't really care if people get the option to change their difficulty. Yeah, it cheapens the game experience, but if you want to play it that way, then its your loss. There's also the question of what the game developer's vision for the game they created. I would like to think that the Souls developers wouldn't want that since it wouldn't be the Souls they thought of. Yes of course, but I still wouldn't mind if developers put in a difficulty option. Devs can have a "recommended difficulty" so they can have you be fully immersed in what they wanted you to experience. I'm just thinking about it in a broad sense. Not many people have the skill to finish a game like Dark Souls, so they keep constantly dying. I just feel like if they wanted to experience the game, why is the overbearing difficulty have to burden them? This doesn't mean I don't love the current Dark Souls difficulty, if they did lower it without leaving out the current hard default souls difficulty, I will travel to Japan myself just to slap the bastard from From Software who thought about the idea of making the game too easy without putting in a challenge. |
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| A games difficulty plays heavily into how a game unfolds. The more "difficulty" options a dev adds the more muddy the whole experience becomes; especially when only superficial changes were made to achieve a difficulty gradient. Halcyon 6 is a fine example of trying to achieve the "playable by everyone" standard when in reality it's the same exact game but with superficial road bumps. There is no difference between the easiest difficulty and the hardest other then enemies can one shot a single or multiple ships and on both modes there is always the option of stalling to farm resources. If anything I'd say the focus lies on games that craft a singular and polished experienced rather then catering to every individual who might be put off. Regardless of difficulty, something that's relative to the individual anyways, games shouldn't be playable by anyone because by fault that would mean you'd sacrificed some aspect of the game to target a larger audience. |
| It's always better with a difficulty slider ImO. It's not simply about challenge, it's about having a satisfying experience. When a game has very good gameplay possibilities but that you never have to use them because it's not hard enough to require it, that's always a shame, and it happens pretty much all the time with no difficulty slider (except with game intended to be super hard from the devs). Some games with very awesome gameplay ideas are kind of ruined by this because as soon as you start to use those awesome things properly, it becomes a cakewalk. Meanwhile, a game tuned too hard will just be frustrating for someone who cannot play it the way he wants. Devs should always leave the decision to the player. Just because he wants his game to be played "that way" doesn't mean he should stop players to play and enjoy it in a different way. You can't force a player to play a way he doesn't want. If you try to do that, he will just quit. it's not just elitism or on the contrary "being played by anyone "(by the way, most games no matter the difficulty slider will NEVER be "playable by anyone"). It's a matter of the devs providing the necessary tools for the players to enjoy the game. Difficulty slider is one of them imo. If there is none, then except if you fall right into the targeted "skill level" as a player, you're going to find it either too easy or too hard to really enjoy it properly. Of course, then the next question is "how should the difficulty slider works". And then in some type of games, like strategy games, it becomes quite hard for the dev to provide a satisfying answer, and as a result one of the most common "harder difficulty" setting in strategy game is just a cheating AI or giving unfair advantages for the AI, which most players won't enjoy. A good example of a BAD difficulty slider is the total war franchise. This is NOT what you want. I like difficulty, and Iwant something more difficult than the hard/normal setting of this games, but the higher difficulties are just plain dumb in the way they work. It doesn't feel rewarding, it doesn't feel fun, it doesn't feel interesting. Just plain annoying. In reverse, in some cases the difficulty slider does very interesting things, and are memorable due to that. An example would be the thief games, which decided that the higher the difficulty the more thief-like you should be. At lowest difficulty you can kill whatever you want, at a higher difficulty you can only kill guards and not civilians, and at the highest difficulty you're not allowed to kill anyone. This is a game about being a thief, so that makes sense, and this is something that players searching for challenge both enjoyed for the challenge and the originality/logic behind it. Sometimes just number change (health/damage/amount of ammunitions-healthpacks in FPS/adventure/rpg) will mostly do the trick to get the researched result, but good difficulty sliders try to be more attractive than that. I'd say that the difficulty slider should never be something that the devs toss aside as something being unimportant. It should be added, and it shouldn't just be added without thinking about what you can do; should do, AND shouldn't do with it. |
ZefyrisNov 30, 2017 3:08 AM
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| Nothing I can say that hasn't been said in my massive thread on the Escapist. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.1024610-Can-someone-explain-this-weird-Jimquisition-video-about-difficult-games-to-me If a game isn't made for you, play something else. Not every game needs to be playable by everyone. Easy modes can hurt games. Also, I liked this: |
EzekielNov 30, 2017 5:50 AM
| Personally, I don't think Dark Souls is that hard. It's a test of your ability to gather information, rather than of your ability to fight strong enemies. I think difficulty is a relative thing, and developers have a hard time determining what should be considered hard or easy. For example, some people find normal mode hard in Fire Emblem, while others may find Lunatic easy. It is also a lot of work to reprogram all the numbers in the game to add a new difficulty. The payoff usually isn't there to justify the extra work. While I do appreciate a difficulty slider at times, it is often not appropriate. For examples of it done well, I would recommend Fire Emblem and Bravely Default. For examples of where it's inappropriate, I'd point to any fighting game with a difficulty setting We must also remember the roots of the medium. Arcade games were not supposed to be easy. NES and SNES games were far from easy, yet they brought back a dead medium that was killed by Atari. Atari had easier games, though this had nothing to do with the video game crash. In the end, it is up to the discretion of the developer, and I won't fault them either way. |
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| I feel like games used to be a lot harder back in the day. I appreciate a game that's not afraid to make it hard. It's frustrating when you die a lot, but it makes it that much better when you finally do beat the level. At least there are difficulty settings so everyone can kinda get what they want. |
Zefyris said: It's always better with a difficulty slider ImO. It's not simply about challenge, it's about having a satisfying experience. When a game has very good gameplay possibilities but that you never have to use them because it's not hard enough to require it, that's always a shame, and it happens pretty much all the time with no difficulty slider (except with game intended to be super hard from the devs). Some games with very awesome gameplay ideas are kind of ruined by this because as soon as you start to use those awesome things properly, it becomes a cakewalk. Meanwhile, a game tuned too hard will just be frustrating for someone who cannot play it the way he wants. Devs should always leave the decision to the player. Just because he wants his game to be played "that way" doesn't mean he should stop players to play and enjoy it in a different way. You can't force a player to play a way he doesn't want. If you try to do that, he will just quit. it's not just elitism or on the contrary "being played by anyone "(by the way, most games no matter the difficulty slider will NEVER be "playable by anyone"). It's a matter of the devs providing the necessary tools for the players to enjoy the game. Difficulty slider is one of them imo. If there is none, then except if you fall right into the targeted "skill level" as a player, you're going to find it either too easy or too hard to really enjoy it properly. Of course, then the next question is "how should the difficulty slider works". And then in some type of games, like strategy games, it becomes quite hard for the dev to provide a satisfying answer, and as a result one of the most common "harder difficulty" setting in strategy game is just a cheating AI or giving unfair advantages for the AI, which most players won't enjoy. A good example of a BAD difficulty slider is the total war franchise. This is NOT what you want. I like difficulty, and Iwant something more difficult than the hard/normal setting of this games, but the higher difficulties are just plain dumb in the way they work. It doesn't feel rewarding, it doesn't feel fun, it doesn't feel interesting. Just plain annoying. In reverse, in some cases the difficulty slider does very interesting things, and are memorable due to that. An example would be the thief games, which decided that the higher the difficulty the more thief-like you should be. At lowest difficulty you can kill whatever you want, at a higher difficulty you can only kill guards and not civilians, and at the highest difficulty you're not allowed to kill anyone. This is a game about being a thief, so that makes sense, and this is something that players searching for challenge both enjoyed for the challenge and the originality/logic behind it. Sometimes just number change (health/damage/amount of ammunitions-healthpacks in FPS/adventure/rpg) will mostly do the trick to get the researched result, but good difficulty sliders try to be more attractive than that. I'd say that the difficulty slider should never be something that the devs toss aside as something being unimportant. It should be added, and it shouldn't just be added without thinking about what you can do; should do, AND shouldn't do with it. Mount and Blade probably has the best implemented difficulty slider ever made. You want a challenge? Set it all the way up and unless you're REALLY good or fight against Raiders/pirates/marauders, you basically get one-shotted and outplayed by everyone. Want a satisfying experience as a newcomer? Put it low for the time being, then a bit higher when you start getting followers/companions/soldiers, then maybe lower again if you're having trouble against elite armies, then higher again when you have top tier equipment and fights start easier, etc. The only really off-puting thing about the game is the beginning, because everything is so slow and boring until you get your party up, but when you actually start getting your party up as a mercery, then join a kingdom or form your own...oh boy, that's when it gets really good. I hope Bannerlord (when it gets out) improves on the early game a bit, those 5-10 hours early hours are pretty boring. Ezekiel said: Nothing I can say that hasn't been said in my massive thread on the Escapist. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.1024610-Can-someone-explain-this-weird-Jimquisition-video-about-difficult-games-to-me If a game isn't made for you, play something else. Not every game needs to be playable by everyone. Easy modes can hurt games. Also, I liked this: That guy makes some good points but then he puts DMC3 as an example when that game has difficulty options, like Easy, Normal, Hard, Dante must die etc. I should know, the Cerberus was kicking my balls so hard I switched to Easy since I was barely doing half his health bar. The game at that point became less infuriating and a lot more fun, since they were still a couple of fights that were challenging, but I didn't get the feeling that I was doing jackshit and my efforts were pointless. I can say for certain I wouldn't have enjoyed DMC3 as much as I did if I only had Normal from the start (hell, I wouldn't even have finished the game). Others examples I can think off that are way less frustrating and fun is XCOM, which was mainly because I did two campaigns, once on Normal and another on Easy and enjoyed the later way more (and that was my second one as well) simply because I could take more risks with the RNG gods instead of "moving a couple of steps > Overwatch" like what my former campaign was (because otherwise you can just get sniped/flanked hard). I Heard is even worse on other difficulty modes with Thinmen perfect accuracy shoots from miles away. A fairly recent example as well would be Cuphead, where I think the bosses were too hard even on easy and I can definitely say I could've enjoyed it more with 1-2 more hitpoints before dying. |
GoldenSaltPillarNov 30, 2017 9:05 AM
| I often pick the middle difficulty since I like to balance both the stories and the feeling of accomplishing something in the game, which you don't get as much in easy modes. But if it's a game that I am familiar with, I often choose the hard difficulty because why not >:D Oh? Did I finish this game too fast? Maybe I'm just a loser for choosing the easy route... Oh? The main story is too hard for me to finish now? Maybe I'm just bad at this game... (⁄ ⁄•⁄ω⁄•⁄ ⁄) |
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| I think personally games sould be a bit more hard i seem to find that their easy now a days or make something like a hard mode when you complete the game like unlocking Master Quest in Legend of Zelda or Bayonetta when you get complete the game you unlock hard mode (even though Bayonetta not the easyist game to complete if your on normal mode like when i completed it) seriously gracious and glorious are the bane of my existence we should have more enimes like thoughs now a day because when you finally beast them because you cant just stick to your normal way of fighting things and it forces you to think of diffrent ways and keeps you on your toes because their the type of enime that move fast and it hard and because of that its hard to get a combo off on them even when you do by the time you got your final strike their usually up and out of the way and they prove you cant just button mash and be done you need some actual skill to beat them  |
| Fun is the main premise here, not difficulty level. If a game is more fun when it's difficult then it should be like that, and vice versa. Someone's who's been gaming for a long time may like difficult games, unlike casuals. Game is no longer as hard as it used to be before. Because of this, more and more casuals are engaging in gaming each passing day, which is sure expanding the community, but is also upsetting hardcore gamers in a way. Personally, I find difficult games to be more fun. I get this feeling of superiority every time I beat a tough game :p |
YanriNov 30, 2017 10:05 AM
| My solution: Just git gud. If I can beat Dark Souls 1, anyone can. |
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Elegade said: I think there's no fault in adding a difficulty setting for every game, even games like the Soul's series. While the experience will be completely shit if you tone down the difficulty, why does it matter if there is one. Companies are out to get money, as long as the the Easy difficulty doesn't make my Hard difficulty of Dark souls change, then I don't really care if people get the option to change their difficulty. Yeah, it cheapens the game experience, but if you want to play it that way, then its your loss. It's called summoning/using magic. |
| I think the problem most people in the latter camp have with adding difficulty is exposing casuals to the games they pour so much effort into over-saturates the community; saying you play "X hard game here" has no merit anymore. People want to be exclusionary so they can have something special to avoid certain people and their personalities. And of course theres the idea that more casuals will bring in shit like forcing pandering and stuff, but I think that's a little bit more of a boogyman situation. I personally am in the latter camp of keeping difficulty selectors out of the games, but I also think the arguments for our opinion are pretty stupid lol |
the40ftbadger said: i have palpable amounts of salt for FO4. It's like a clown put on my dead dad's clothes and is running around my house going "LOOK I'M YOUR DAD, ISN'T THIS FUN?!?!" |
avory said: Elegade said: I think there's no fault in adding a difficulty setting for every game, even games like the Soul's series. While the experience will be completely shit if you tone down the difficulty, why does it matter if there is one. Companies are out to get money, as long as the the Easy difficulty doesn't make my Hard difficulty of Dark souls change, then I don't really care if people get the option to change their difficulty. Yeah, it cheapens the game experience, but if you want to play it that way, then its your loss. It's called summoning/using magic. It doesn't matter if you summon or use magic if you still get rekt by a boss. There are numerous times that I get summoned in the Dark Souls Series or Bloodborne only to lose because the boss will still target the host most of the time, and they die. Also good magic has long cast times unless you have the right equipment for it, if the host is summoning people to a noob boss fight, chances are, his equipment is trash. |
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Elegade said: Well, if you're that bad you'd really need an invincible mode, not just an easy mode.It doesn't matter if you summon or use magic if you still get rekt by a boss. There are numerous times that I get summoned in the Dark Souls Series or Bloodborne only to lose because the boss will still target the host most of the time, and they die. Also good magic has long cast times unless you have the right equipment for it, if the host is summoning people to a noob boss fight, chances are, his equipment is trash. |
| There should always be a really easy option for those that just want to enjoy the story. Especially because some people have disabilities and they wouldn't be able to finish otherwise. But having an ultra difficult mode is important too. I for one love the challenge. I always play on the hardest difficulty mode when it's presented to me. Unless it's something silly like.. 1 hit = Death. *Cough* The Evil Within *Cough* |
| The one thing I really hate is: fucked up/ shitty-sloppily-done difficulty levels, particularly when added to overall bad battle design/ battle balance design. When playing "normal" is way too easy and dead-boring, but raising the difficulty any little bit makes any boss-fights, even those "level-1" totally impossible / survival depends not on whatever you do, but whatever the dice rolled for the enemy action come up with -> under 1 in 100 attempts not ending up in being insta-killed at the first enemy movement. So you have to go out of order and play things in really "wrong" order to "advance", totally destroying the story along the way / also: effectively killing about 1/2 or maybe even 2/3rds of gameplay (healing just as well as defensive gear becoming fully useless when each hit always means death. This then meaning that most of the the main characters become totally useless -> no longer used -> once again destroying the story. ------------------- disclaimer: above was written under the influence of recent playthrough of MGQ paradox - some hours on "normal" (story etc: good!, gameplay: boooooring!), playthrough on "paradox", then experimenting with "very hard" + self-implied "house rules", to see if there was a way to have battles being somewhat challenging while still being able to follow the story order of things. (yes, is possible. somewhat.) Such a shame: good story, excellent characters and dialogues, lots of little detail/ goodies, elaborate race/job system - all going to "waste" because fucked up battle design/ balance. pretty much same as original Monmusu part 3. :| Am so pissed with Torotoro atm. . |
BannoBunka_snorkNov 30, 2017 4:00 PM
| *darn, using my right hand is off-limits for a while. Typing with my left hand only is ... eww.* |
UAC_DeltaCompany said: It also takes time and money to balance those easier modes, which could be spent on more important things. Easy options such as aim-assists can also unbalance multiplayer games. I think the problem most people in the latter camp have with adding difficulty is exposing casuals to the games they pour so much effort into over-saturates the community; saying you play "X hard game here" has no merit anymore. People want to be exclusionary so they can have something special to avoid certain people and their personalities. And of course theres the idea that more casuals will bring in shit like forcing pandering and stuff, but I think that's a little bit more of a boogyman situation. |
| For me, I usually just tend to go with the flow. I usually just do a game like most JRPGs on a normal mode, NOT easy or simple tho, for it nice and easy seeing its the first playthrough and i wanna get used to the game and just have fun, then later IF i play it more like a 2nd run i'll do it on a harder difficulty... |
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