Forum Settings
Forums
Pages (3) [1] 2 3 »
Post New Reply
#1
Nov 24, 2017 3:58 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
I was thinking about this, because I encountered in some stuff i've been reading/watching recently.
If something is intended to be harem, that's completely fine, but many series has the harem as a side thing, and it could do perfectly fine without it. E.g: The rise of the shield hero, sao and many more.
The harem has nothing to do with the main plot, it's just there as a side thing, so the question is, compared to the west, why does japan prefer this type of thing over like a normal romance between the MC and a heroine?
Most western series do have love triangles, and stuff like that, but at the end there is usually one pairing which ends up together, compared to the at least 2 in these anime/manga/LN series. What's the point of it, when it adds absolutely nothing to the plot?
 
#2
Nov 24, 2017 4:02 AM

Offline
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1197
i mean, if you go for generic series that's what you gonna find
 
#3
Nov 24, 2017 4:02 AM

Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6900
Short answer: wish fulfillment and demography.
 
#4
Nov 24, 2017 4:05 AM

Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 5937
This is why people hate the harem genre

We need more romance without harem/ love triangle bs
 
#5
Nov 24, 2017 4:06 AM
Offline
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 12602
To portray the fact that the MC is an attractive person towards the female species. A fact which need to be made quite explicitly due to real life NEET loner average person scenarios do not reflect such reality in any way.
 
#6
Nov 24, 2017 4:07 AM

Online
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5120
Idk, I'm usually not as obsessed with the relevancy to the main plot as a lot of people seem to be and so I always kind of find the idea that everything needs to tie back to the main narrative in order to be acceptable within a show to just sound strange. Why is it so important that every aspect of a series tie back to an overarching narrative somehow? There's also the fact that these types of interactions where love triangles/harem interactions over who gets the MC or whatever usually tends to take place in a subplot in the kind of shows you're talking about, whether or not you like them or think they're good withstanding.

If adding harem aspects to a show in a way that the only effect those aspects have on the show are to expand the cast of characters, then I sort of see it as adding characters that could be good - and I'd very much rather watch characters I like watching do absolutely nothing relevant than watch characters I do not care about in the slightest take part in an epic adventure story. 'Course, the characters added could not be very interested as well and all, that goes without saying, but I feel like the point I'm trying to make with that still stands in that I don't view it as a bad thing in the slightest. Plus I'm just a sucker for cute girls, and these types of shows do tend to have them in spades.

As for why Japan has this like you say, I don't know, I'm not an expert on Japan's consumerbase in the slightest. Maybe it's become a trope over there (or just in anime/manga/LNs, even) due to popularity but just didn't/hasn't caught on in other types of media elsewhere.
Modified by Manaban, Nov 24, 2017 4:17 AM
 
#7
Nov 24, 2017 4:08 AM
Offline
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 12602
tragedydesu said:
This is why people hate the harem genre

We need more romance without harem/ love triangle bs


The problem with harem is they don't dare to take the whole road to the finish and be a legitimate harem. Instead most harem shows back off and choose a girl usually the first girl and proceed to roll the credits.
 
#8
Nov 24, 2017 4:13 AM
~ PR Cheerio ~

Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 6624
This doesn't actually bug me a lot of times to be fairly honest. But I guess the reason why that stuff is added is to make a more... "character dynamic" ish type of deal? I guess.
 
#9
Nov 24, 2017 4:14 AM
Lazy

Offline
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3165
worldeditor11 said:
tragedydesu said:
This is why people hate the harem genre

We need more romance without harem/ love triangle bs


The problem with harem is they don't dare to take the whole road to the finish and be a legitimate harem. Instead most harem shows back off and choose a girl usually the first girl and proceed to roll the credits.
Or in case of some series, the guy doesn't even choose a girl.
 
Nov 24, 2017 4:19 AM
Offline
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 12602
Ericonator said:
worldeditor11 said:


The problem with harem is they don't dare to take the whole road to the finish and be a legitimate harem. Instead most harem shows back off and choose a girl usually the first girl and proceed to roll the credits.
Or in case of some series, the guy doesn't even choose a girl.


Around half is my estimate. I just want a good ol legit harem like in uhh, uhm, shit. There's none? Top kek.
 
Nov 24, 2017 4:23 AM
Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1957
Its because they are selling waifu's and shipping culture. The reason for the harem is to cater each girl to a different guy's taste/fetish. Its why in many harems you see the same type of archetypes and body types in each one. Each girl is catered to a different part of the audience. Its why they always keep the ending vague in harems, because if the winner is not what the fanbase wants it will cause a huge back lash that may include lost customers, death threats, sullied reputation as an author, etc. just look at how fans reacted when the autistic girl won in that one popular anime. Fans were angry because their waifu lost.
 
Nov 24, 2017 4:25 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
tragedydesu said:
This is why people hate the harem genre

We need more romance without harem/ love triangle bs


Well my issue is, that these shows are not even harem.

Manaban said:
Idk, I'm usually not as obsessed with the relevancy to the main plot as a lot of people seem to be and so I always kind of find the idea that everything needs to tie back to the main narrative in order to be acceptable within a show to just sound strange. Why is it so important that every aspect of a series tie back to an overarching narrative somehow? There's also the fact that these types of interactions where love triangles/harem interactions over who gets the MC or whatever usually tends to take place in a subplot in the kind of shows you're talking about, whether or not you like them or think they're good withstanding.

If adding harem aspects to a show in a way that the only effect those aspects have on the show are to expand the cast of characters, then I sort of see it as adding characters that could be good - and I'd very much rather watch characters I like watching do absolutely nothing relevant than watch characters I do not care about in the slightest take part in an epic adventure story. 'Course, the characters added could not be very interested as well and all, that goes without saying, but I feel like the point I'm trying to make with that still stands in that I don't view it as a bad thing in the slightest. Plus I'm just a sucker for cute girls, and these types of shows do tend to have them in spades.

As for why Japan has this like you say, I don't know, I'm not an expert on Japan's consumerbase in the slightest. Maybe it's become a trope over there (or just in anime/manga/LNs, even) due to popularity but just didn't/hasn't caught on in other types of media elsewhere.


Well, additional characters can easily be added without them being a harem, also like... the MC could have some male companions sometimes? And then there could be more romance pairings instead of a harem.
 
Nov 24, 2017 4:27 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
15poundfish said:
Its because they are selling waifu's and shipping culture. The reason for the harem is to cater each girl to a different guy's taste/fetish. Its why in many harems you see the same type of archetypes and body types in each one. Each girl is catered to a different part of the audience. Its why they always keep the ending vague in harems, because if the winner is not what the fanbase wants it will cause a huge back lash that may include lost customers, death threats, sullied reputation as an author, etc. just look at how fans reacted when the autistic girl won in that one popular anime. Fans were angry because their waifu lost.


Yes, which can be prevented like how battle shounens do this, with introducing more male characters, instead of 1 male and 10 female.
 
Nov 24, 2017 4:30 AM

Online
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5120
ImAWeebUwU said:
Well, additional characters can easily be added without them being a harem, also like... the MC could have some male companions sometimes? And then there could be more romance pairings instead of a harem.

Meh, if I can be honest, this response is basically no different than me saying "But they don't have to not be a harem, either; also, they don't have to have male companions from time to time as well."

Yeah, they don't have to. They can do so if they want to as well. What is this supposed to convince me of? ._.

If you just want more male characters like you seem to be coming across as in the post above, then I don't think that's unreasonable at all, but there's still plenty of shows out there with a good number of male characters and companions as well, so I don't see why everything has to cater to your standards in gender distribution in the cast.
Modified by Manaban, Nov 24, 2017 4:36 AM
 
Nov 24, 2017 4:39 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
Manaban said:
ImAWeebUwU said:
Well, additional characters can easily be added without them being a harem, also like... the MC could have some male companions sometimes? And then there could be more romance pairings instead of a harem.

Meh, if I can be honest, this response is basically no different than me saying "But they don't have to not be a harem, either; also, they don't have to have male companions from time to time as well."

Yeah, they don't have to. They can do so if they want to as well. What is this supposed to convince me of? ._.

If you just want more male characters like you seem to be coming across as in the post above, then I don't think that's unreasonable at all, but there's still plenty of shows out there with a good number of male characters and companions as well, so I don't see why everything has to cater to your standards in gender distribution in the cast.


Yeah you could say that, but then what's the point of this discussion lol.
Also, I do not particularly want more male characters, I just suggested that as a way to 'solve' the harem problem AND have many female characters.
 
Nov 24, 2017 4:43 AM

Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1492
That's why I love Sevens, the harem was relevant and was tackled in serious way without treating the female cast as trophies, hell all the female cast has their own character development without losing consistency, and I love how each of the girls competes through various means like political skills or straight out fight. It has even made a satire comment about harems, that it should be left as it is, or the dreaming side of the young people will shatter. In reality, serious harem only works on political dramas or rich people's story. Make it short, it's just for wish fulfillment fantasies for Japanese/Chinese/Korean readers which were mostly written by web novelist.
 
Nov 24, 2017 4:47 AM

Online
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5120
ImAWeebUwU said:
Yeah you could say that, but then what's the point of this discussion lol.

Yeah, I know. That's why I said it in the first place - it was the equivalent of the argument you were trying to make to me.

ImAWeebUwU said:

Well, additional characters can easily be added without them being a harem, also like... the MC could have some male companions sometimes? And then there could be more romance pairings instead of a harem.


Yeah, they don't have to have the significant majority of the cast be female or feature harem elements. They also could ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ What's the point of discussing what they could or could not do rather than what they did?



ImAWeebUwU said:

Also, I do not particularly want more male characters, I just suggested that as a way to 'solve' the harem problem AND have many female characters.

Alright; how is it a problem? Usually these interactions take place as a subplot in the type of shows you seem to be talking about - which are more action-oriented harem shows - and there are many good shows that have subplots that few people ever write substantiate criticism towards them for possessing as much. What are the problems inherent to having shows with harems in them, in a way that's meaningful and not just expressing personal distaste with the concept?

That needs to be established before we start trying to solve things, and the unfortunate reality is that "It has too many female characters and not enough male characters" or "I like one on one romances more" are by no means substantive and are more indicative of personal tastes or preferences so therefore should usually just be taken with a grain of salt, unless you get into explaining why in a way that's actually meaningful, albeit given the nature of these arguments being reliant on things that don't necessarily impact quality as much as seemingly just being rooted in distaste for the concept of multiple females having intimate feelings towards a single male - because in terms of gender balance, there's been constantly well-received works of literature that feature near-exclusively one gender casts, and one-on-one romances aren't harems and this is basically like saying "I like laser guns more thangiant mechs" or something - I have no idea how that could be made into something more than "I like this more than this," which is a judgement 100% rooted in personal taste and isn't going to be solving anything on a broader scale anytime soon. You can't really discuss personal tastes like that, which is all the preference for one-on-one romances is - a personal taste.
Modified by Manaban, Nov 24, 2017 4:52 AM
 
Nov 24, 2017 4:51 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
Manaban said:
ImAWeebUwU said:
Yeah you could say that, but then what's the point of this discussion lol.

Yeah, I know. That's why I said it in the first place - it was the equivalent of the argument you were trying to make to me.

ImAWeebUwU said:

Well, additional characters can easily be added without them being a harem, also like... the MC could have some male companions sometimes? And then there could be more romance pairings instead of a harem.


Yeah, they don't have to have the significant majority of the cast be female or feature harem elements. They also could ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



ImAWeebUwU said:

Also, I do not particularly want more male characters, I just suggested that as a way to 'solve' the harem problem AND have many female characters.

Alright; how is it a problem? Usually these interactions take place as a subplot in the type of shows you seem to be talking about - which are more action-oriented harem shows - and there are many good shows that have subplots that few people ever write substantiate criticism towards them for possessing as much. What are the problems inherent to having shows with harems in them, in a way that's meaningful and not just expressing personal distaste with the concept?

That needs to be established before we start trying to solve things, and the unfortunate reality is that "It has too many female characters and not enough male characters" or "I like one on one romances more" are by no means substantive and are more indicative of personal tastes or preferences so therefore should usually just be taken with a grain of salt, unless you get into explaining why in a way that's actually meaningful, albeit given the nature of these arguments being reliant on things that don't necessarily impact quality as much as seemingly just being rooted in distaste for the concept of multiple females having intimate feelings towards a single male - because in terms of gender balance, there's been constantly well-received works of literature that feature near-exclusively one gender casts, and one-on-one romances aren't harems and this is basically like saying "I like laser guns more than mechs" or something - I have no idea how that could be made into something more than "I like this more than this," which is a judgement 100% rooted in personal taste and isn't going to be solving anything on a broader scale anytime soon.


While, I do like one on one romances more than these harems, I never once mentioned in my post that it's a problem, the question was that why is japan putting more harem elements where its not neccessary compared to western shows.
 
Nov 24, 2017 4:54 AM

Online
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5120
ImAWeebUwU said:
While, I do like one on one romances more than these harems, I never once mentioned in my post that it's a problem, the question was that why is japan putting more harem elements where its not neccessary compared to western shows.

I responded like that because you told me that you wanted to solve the 'harem' problem ._. So I just asked a series of questions that could help us do so, because honestly, I didn't think what you said in the OP was anything meaningful, no insults intended.

If you just want to talk about what it is with Japan, I don't know, I put my thoughts on that in the first post, but they weren't anything particularly good and mostly just guesswork because I'm not especially familiar with the Japanese consumerbase or anything. I kind of just tacked that bit on to the rest of the post since I know you said that in the OP and I didn't want to outright ignore it, even though I don't have much of worth to add.
 
Nov 24, 2017 5:00 AM
Nana Deviluke❤️

Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6943
ImAWeebUwU said:
While, I do like one on one romances more than these harems, I never once mentioned in my post that it's a problem
ImAWeebUwU said:
I just suggested that as a way to 'solve' the harem problem AND have many female characters.
so what do you mean with the word problem directed in this comment exactly then?
 
Nov 24, 2017 5:34 AM
Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 808
ImAWeebUwU said:
I was thinking about this, because I encountered in some stuff i've been reading/watching recently.
If something is intended to be harem, that's completely fine, but many series has the harem as a side thing, and it could do perfectly fine without it. E.g: The rise of the shield hero, sao and many more.
The harem has nothing to do with the main plot, it's just there as a side thing, so the question is, compared to the west, why does japan prefer this type of thing over like a normal romance between the MC and a heroine?
Most western series do have love triangles, and stuff like that, but at the end there is usually one pairing which ends up together, compared to the at least 2 in these anime/manga/LN series. What's the point of it, when it adds absolutely nothing to the plot?


I have already addressed this Haremification trend in many Action and Fantasy Animes in many of my threads.

That's why I am a strong proponent of having a 2nd male get his own girl in Action Animes, so that we can see Multiple Couples/Relationships in it, like DBZ's couples of Goku-Chichi, Vegeta-Bulma, and Krillin-Android 18.
I am someone that would like to watch a Harem Anime with 2 male leads that each gets their own harem company of girls from the main cast. For example, 1st male lead gets a company of 4 girls and 2nd male lead gets 2-3 girls etc.
 
Nov 24, 2017 5:34 AM

Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 4224
Cause shit writing and harem sells. I mean, I am a consumer of it.
Ero Pattishie, how was the night?
Did you like the sister sandwich for dinner?
Or perhaps it was too sweet,
that you want more vanilla in the morning.
I'll put extra cream just for you.
Now it eat well, we still have more desserts.
 
Nov 24, 2017 5:46 AM

Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 724
worldeditor11 said:
tragedydesu said:
This is why people hate the harem genre

We need more romance without harem/ love triangle bs


The problem with harem is they don't dare to take the whole road to the finish and be a legitimate harem. Instead most harem shows back off and choose a girl usually the first girl and proceed to roll the credits.


That's not the problem with harems. The problem with harems is the shit writing, shit characters, beta-male or Gary Stu MC with no discerning qualities, overdone school setting, and horrible plot, with the sole redeeming quality being the appearances of its waifu pandering trash females.
 
Nov 24, 2017 5:57 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
CoolitzHubertXVI said:
ImAWeebUwU said:
I was thinking about this, because I encountered in some stuff i've been reading/watching recently.
If something is intended to be harem, that's completely fine, but many series has the harem as a side thing, and it could do perfectly fine without it. E.g: The rise of the shield hero, sao and many more.
The harem has nothing to do with the main plot, it's just there as a side thing, so the question is, compared to the west, why does japan prefer this type of thing over like a normal romance between the MC and a heroine?
Most western series do have love triangles, and stuff like that, but at the end there is usually one pairing which ends up together, compared to the at least 2 in these anime/manga/LN series. What's the point of it, when it adds absolutely nothing to the plot?


I have already addressed this Haremification trend in many Action and Fantasy Animes in many of my threads.

That's why I am a strong proponent of having a 2nd male get his own girl in Action Animes, so that we can see Multiple Couples/Relationships in it, like DBZ's couples of Goku-Chichi, Vegeta-Bulma, and Krillin-Android 18.


Yes, that's another good example. Also bleach, naruto etc.
 
Nov 24, 2017 7:37 AM
Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1957
ImAWeebUwU said:

Yes, which can be prevented like how battle shounens do this, with introducing more male characters, instead of 1 male and 10 female.
They can do this as well, another thing I forgot to add is in some harem anime the losers get paired of with another male character at the end of the anime like in Nagi no Asukara. I think the best way that I have seen in battle shounen's is that they have an equal number of male and females and just pair off every character to avoid shipping wars.
 
Nov 24, 2017 7:58 AM
Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 808
Even some Japanese viewers are tired of Harems in Battle/Action and Fantasy Animes. You can read some of their comments here : http://magsoku.blomaga.jp/articles/60325.html

32 : 超高校級の名無しさん : 2016-05-26 20:16 ID:NGRlZmJm ▼このコメントに返信
SAOとかリゼロとか例え恋愛要素なくても男主人公とある程度親しい美少女達って構図がなんか癇に障る
恋愛させないなら男の友情描けよって

Translation : Like the examples in SAO and Re Zero, even if it's not based on any romantic feelings, the setting of many close female friends surrounding the MC really makes me feel annoyed. If you're not gonna make them fall in love and be in a relationship with the MC, then it's better off writing some Male Friendship.

My Comment : I agree with this poster. Male Friendship that I remember most fondly is the friendship between Urameshi and Kuwabara, and between Goku and Krillin in DBZ.

However, even though I agree with that Japanese poster, I still prefer around a maximum limit of just 2-3 males in the protagonist side of the main cast, with another 4-5 more females in the main cast, where some of those girls are paired off with those non-MC male characters. Any more than 3 males in the main cast will take away the spotlight from the MC and his 1-2 male friends and their girlfriends, as I am quite satisified to see just 2 or 3 couples formed in such a Fantasy and Battle Anime by the end of the show.

33 : 超高校級の名無しさん : 2016-05-26 20:50 ID:YWJhYWIz ▼このコメントに返信
女キャラがそんなに沢山要らない
登場人物全体の半分か3分の1ぐらいで十分

つーか、主人公以外の男キャラもちゃんと活躍させてやれよって思う
(ここで言う活躍ってのは情報収集程度のものじゃなく、敵四天王の1人を倒すぐらいのことを指す)
ラノベだと主人公以外の男は扱いボロカスなのが多いし

Translation :
There's no need for many female characters. It's enough for just half or a third of the appearing characters to be females.
Also, there should be more chances for other non-MC male characters to shine and be in the spotlight. ( What I meant by that is having such a male character to not just act as information gathering scout, but also as someone with the power to defeat the villains' Top 4 ranking fighters. However in Light Novels, there are so many series where all other males who are not the MC are always being treated like shit.

My Comment : I agree with that poster on having other non-MC male characters their own time to shine, like in Yuyu Hakusho and the American live action series Vampire Diaries, but I disagree with his suggested ratio of males and females in the main cast.

IMHO, having a main cast of 2 males and 6 females, or 3 males and 5 females, is good enough, as I'm satisfied if a minimum of 2 guys including the MC gets one girlfriend each and be coupled, or have 2-3 girls like 1 guy each, or having up to 3 couples with 3 males and 3 females in the main cast.

Of course, if all those couples are gonna end up fighting, the Author of such a story with Battle elements need to make their girlfriends' strong enough to be able to fight decently against their enemies, and I trust it can be done pretty well, as Bleach had like over 40 strong characters each with their own unique abilities and special attacks.

Akame ga Kill is a good example of a Battle Anime with a good ratio of males and females in the main cast, while Gakusen Toshi is very terrible example of a typical Battle Harem with only 1 male in the main cast hogging the attention and affection of almost all the main female cast ( Julis, his sister, Kirin, Claudia. All 4 girls of that show's main cast interacts mostly with the MC Ayato, and none of them interacts that much with the other 2 background toilet seat male characters who are Lester and the roommate of Ayato beyond a few exchange of words as just acquaintances instead of close friends like with Ayato )

There should be more Fantasy and Battle Animes where there is a 2nd strong male other than the MC in the main cast, and depict 1 or 2 of the females of the main cast liking that 2nd guy ( Like for example, in Just Because! ), and have that 2nd male be shipped with a girl(s) destined for him, while the MC gets the main heroine.

At the same time, have that 2nd couple too have their decent screentime and spotlight moments too, like the Japanese poster above mentioning about having other male characters be strong enough to help assist the MC's group in defeating the Top 4 Villians. An example of that is in Bleach, where one of the Top 3 Espada is defeated by a non-main cast male character who wears a hat.
I am someone that would like to watch a Harem Anime with 2 male leads that each gets their own harem company of girls from the main cast. For example, 1st male lead gets a company of 4 girls and 2nd male lead gets 2-3 girls etc.
 
Nov 24, 2017 8:45 AM

Offline
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 878
Because at the end of the day there's no point to being an OP edgelord if at least 3 females aren't lusting for you at any given time.

@CoolitzHubertXVI I just knew I'd find you here.
 
Nov 24, 2017 9:01 AM

Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1791
Because people like to self-insert with the boring Gary Stu MC


What's the difference?
 
Nov 24, 2017 9:53 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
CoolitzHubertXVI said:
Even some Japanese viewers are tired of Harems in Battle/Action and Fantasy Animes. You can read some of their comments here : http://magsoku.blomaga.jp/articles/60325.html

32 : 超高校級の名無しさん : 2016-05-26 20:16 ID:NGRlZmJm ▼このコメントに返信
SAOとかリゼロとか例え恋愛要素なくても男主人公とある程度親しい美少女達って構図がなんか癇に障る
恋愛させないなら男の友情描けよって

Translation : Like the examples in SAO and Re Zero, even if it's not based on any romantic feelings, the setting of many close female friends surrounding the MC really makes me feel annoyed. If you're not gonna make them fall in love and be in a relationship with the MC, then it's better off writing some Male Friendship.

My Comment : I agree with this poster. Male Friendship that I remember most fondly is the friendship between Urameshi and Kuwabara, and between Goku and Krillin in DBZ.

However, even though I agree with that Japanese poster, I still prefer around a maximum limit of just 2-3 males in the protagonist side of the main cast, with another 4-5 more females in the main cast, where some of those girls are paired off with those non-MC male characters. Any more than 3 males in the main cast will take away the spotlight from the MC and his 1-2 male friends and their girlfriends, as I am quite satisified to see just 2 or 3 couples formed in such a Fantasy and Battle Anime by the end of the show.

33 : 超高校級の名無しさん : 2016-05-26 20:50 ID:YWJhYWIz ▼このコメントに返信
女キャラがそんなに沢山要らない
登場人物全体の半分か3分の1ぐらいで十分

つーか、主人公以外の男キャラもちゃんと活躍させてやれよって思う
(ここで言う活躍ってのは情報収集程度のものじゃなく、敵四天王の1人を倒すぐらいのことを指す)
ラノベだと主人公以外の男は扱いボロカスなのが多いし

Translation :
There's no need for many female characters. It's enough for just half or a third of the appearing characters to be females.
Also, there should be more chances for other non-MC male characters to shine and be in the spotlight. ( What I meant by that is having such a male character to not just act as information gathering scout, but also as someone with the power to defeat the villains' Top 4 ranking fighters. However in Light Novels, there are so many series where all other males who are not the MC are always being treated like shit.

My Comment : I agree with that poster on having other non-MC male characters their own time to shine, like in Yuyu Hakusho and the American live action series Vampire Diaries, but I disagree with his suggested ratio of males and females in the main cast.

IMHO, having a main cast of 2 males and 6 females, or 3 males and 5 females, is good enough, as I'm satisfied if a minimum of 2 guys including the MC gets one girlfriend each and be coupled, or have 2-3 girls like 1 guy each, or having up to 3 couples with 3 males and 3 females in the main cast.

Of course, if all those couples are gonna end up fighting, the Author of such a story with Battle elements need to make their girlfriends' strong enough to be able to fight decently against their enemies, and I trust it can be done pretty well, as Bleach had like over 40 strong characters each with their own unique abilities and special attacks.

Akame ga Kill is a good example of a Battle Anime with a good ratio of males and females in the main cast, while Gakusen Toshi is very terrible example of a typical Battle Harem with only 1 male in the main cast hogging the attention and affection of almost all the main female cast ( Julis, his sister, Kirin, Claudia. All 4 girls of that show's main cast interacts mostly with the MC Ayato, and none of them interacts that much with the other 2 background toilet seat male characters who are Lester and the roommate of Ayato beyond a few exchange of words as just acquaintances instead of close friends like with Ayato )

There should be more Fantasy and Battle Animes where there is a 2nd strong male other than the MC in the main cast, and depict 1 or 2 of the females of the main cast liking that 2nd guy ( Like for example, in Just Because! ), and have that 2nd male be shipped with a girl(s) destined for him, while the MC gets the main heroine.

At the same time, have that 2nd couple too have their decent screentime and spotlight moments too, like the Japanese poster above mentioning about having other male characters be strong enough to help assist the MC's group in defeating the Top 4 Villians. An example of that is in Bleach, where one of the Top 3 Espada is defeated by a non-main cast male character who wears a hat.


Those are some good comments, I kinda agree with most of them. Thanks for translating.
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:21 AM
Nana Deviluke❤️

Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6943
ImAWeebUwU said:
I was thinking about this, because I encountered in some stuff i've been reading/watching recently.
If something is intended to be harem, that's completely fine, but many series has the harem as a side thing, and it could do perfectly fine without it. E.g: The rise of the shield hero, sao and many more.
well seems like the harem was intended to be a side thing then. You said if there was intention of there being a harem you were fine with such a decision so what is the complaint, problem, issue, point or whatever you want to call it here?
ImAWeebUwU said:
The harem has nothing to do with the main plot, it's just there as a side thing, so the question is, compared to the west, why does japan prefer this type of thing over like a normal romance between the MC and a heroine?
Most western series do have love triangles, and stuff like that, but at the end there is usually one pairing which ends up together, compared to the at least 2 in these anime/manga/LN series. What's the point of it, when it adds absolutely nothing to the plot?
Well its clearly there for those who just like harems?
wouldn't say it adds absolutely nothing either considering having a harem or not will change character motivation and interactions of the cast
I wouldn't say Japan prefers one over the other in terms of there being a love triangle or harem either honestly
just because its there more than the western media doesn't mean they prefer it as you can find several shows without that. Inclusion doesn't equal a preferred system
Modified by Deknijff, Nov 24, 2017 10:25 AM
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:32 AM

Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1492
And here's an example of popular novel which truly depicts Haremification, a perfect story about the strongest person in the world with his beautiful Loli... LOLI HAREM


On the other hand, there's a better Harem, which is relevant to the plot and character development


Then there's my favorite "Sevens", chilling out again as an underrated novel, fucking Japan.
While the Most Popular Web novel "Jobless Reincarnation" is still debatable if it will ever have an anime.

There's only one manga with a barely passing reasonable harem
Shiro no Koukoku Monogatari
Modified by youseiki, Nov 24, 2017 10:45 AM
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:34 AM

Online
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1759
Meh, Grisaia is the only real harem, every other harem show features boring self insert mc's who will never choose a girl or only pick one. And the VN is way better than the anime tbh.
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:48 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
youseiki said:
And here's an example of popular novel which truly depicts Haremification, a perfect story about the strongest person in the world with his beautiful Loli... LOLI HAREM


On the other hand, there's a better Harem, which is relevant to the plot and character development


Then there's my favorite "Sevens", chilling out again as an underrated novel, fucking Japan.
While the Most Popular Web novel "Jobless Reincarnation" is still debatable if it will ever have an anime.

There's only one manga with a barely passing reasonable harem
Shiro no Koukoku Monogatari


If something needs a harem to develop plot, then the author is just terrible tbh.
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:49 AM
Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 808
Everyone, please allow me to present an evidence of how a predominantly Harem series would be much more interesting and entertaining to read if there's a 2nd male in the main cast.

I am able to read some Japanese, as I literally started learning it years ago just for reading RAW LNs and Manga, so I went to some Japanese sites recently, and read some fanfics where the Authors added a second male character to some Single Male Harem series.

Guess what ? I found them more entertaining in my opinion than the original works that featured only one male in the main cast.

Here is an example of one of those Fanfics >>> https://syosetu.org/novel/112154/

It's a fanfic version of Seirei Tsukai no Kenbu with the subtitle, Hyouketsu no Kenbuki, written by the Author there, named 舞翼 , and in it, Kazehaya Kamito is not the only male other than the bad guy Jio that can contract with Elementals, but also a 2nd good male character the Author created, whose name is Kakeru.

In that fanfic, Kamito still mostly interacts with his main girl, Claire, but Kakeru, which this story focuses on, gets paired with another cutie girl who's a new original character created by the Author. I find the story much more dynamic and fun to read than the source material, as I really smiled a lot reading how Kakeru too gets his own Bishoujo Elemental that is a real young adult/late teen woman, while Kamito's Elemental, Est, is the typical Loli that we see in the Anime and original LN. So far Kakeru has both his pretty Elemental girl, and his own female companion classmate in his own company, while Kamito, just like in the source work, mostly interacts with the Tsundere, Claire, which is the main girl for Kamito like in the source.

I was really entertained reading this story, as both Kamito and Kakeru are OP males in Areisha Academy, as none of the other girls have human-figured high-level Elementals as both the 2 male leads. The Author was also very good at writing the story by giving both those 2 males their own spotlights, so I don't feel like as if Kamito's character gets butchered just to make the other new original male character look better.

Both males are portrayed in a positive light, and both gets some cuties being paired with both of them. There's also a funny scene where Ellis scolded Kamito but not Kakeru, and that's because Kamito's Est looks like a 9 year old Loli but Kakeru's Elemental girl, looks like an older young adult around late High School Age.

It's more fun to read that than the original work, so please read it for those of you here that can read Japanese. You will feel far more entertained reading it than you will the first volume of the LN, this I can promise.

So that is one example of an evidence that proves how a Harem Anime with a large female cast would become far more entertaining and superior just with the addition of a second male main cast character, as it gives more options for relationship dynamics and couplings, and more innovative gag/comedic scenes, where the 2nd male lead can team up with one of the other girls to tease and playfully joke with the 1st male lead coupled with his main girl, just to provide an example. Boke and Tsukkomi scenes will be far more funnier with such settings.

It's an evidence of how you can create a show with so many cute female characters but at the same time, feature 2 OP male protagonists that each gets their own respective single girls or small harems, and make the story be far more enjoyable than Harem series with just one male lead.

Also, you may have read my posts many times, but both the 2 male protagonists in the Visual Novel, Gensou no Idea, are both so freakin' COOL ! And the grills are all HOT too. And both of those cool male leads both gets their own girls too ! So, it is literally 3 birds killed with 1 stone.

So, the conclusion is : Double Male Lead Harems are superior than Single Male Harems.
Modified by CoolitzHubertXVI, Nov 24, 2017 11:42 AM
I am someone that would like to watch a Harem Anime with 2 male leads that each gets their own harem company of girls from the main cast. For example, 1st male lead gets a company of 4 girls and 2nd male lead gets 2-3 girls etc.
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:52 AM

Online
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5120
ImAWeebUwU said:
If something needs a harem to develop plot, then the author is just terrible tbh.

You never answered anything when I pressed you on this or about how this is the case by the way, you just derailed it from what I was responding to you about when you started talking about solving the quote-unquote problem and suddenly started treating it like the discussion was only about the Japanese consumerbase.

I mean if you're going to keep reiterating stuff like this in the same thread, at least have the decency to try to back it up when challenged
Modified by Manaban, Nov 24, 2017 10:57 AM
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:53 AM
Nana Deviluke❤️

Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6943
ImAWeebUwU said:
If something needs a harem to develop plot, then the author is just terrible tbh.
what justification do you have for such a claim?
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:54 AM

Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1492
ImAWeebUwU said:


If something needs a harem to develop plot, then the author is just terrible tbh.

youseiki said:
That's why I love Sevens, the harem was relevant and was tackled in serious way without treating the female cast as trophies, hell all the female cast has their own character development without losing consistency, and I love how each of the girls competes through various means like political skills or straight out fight. It has even made a satire comment about harems, that it should be left as it is, or the dreaming side of the young people will shatter. In reality, serious harem only works on political dramas or rich people's story. Make it short, it's just for wish fulfillment fantasies.

My Answer, read it again, Japan, and even China and Korea can't make a decent story like that easily, if you want true harem then, "The Imperial Harem: Women and Sovereignty in the Ottoman Empire" which was actually used in Sevens, again they were meant to be a wish fulfillment, not a complex driven plot, even the infamous Hare Kon didn't showed the complexity of harem.

Edited: I mentioned China, right? Hell the Chinese Novels are far worst and should be left alone in their own country, but Qidan trash is promoting their trash novels with their trash translation through their trash app, they have these degenerate wish fulfillment fantasies of hypocrite perverted protagonist that resorts to rape, adding racism or propaganda that they write stories about their own protagonist raping Women in Japan, like what the actual fuck, and this is just common to them, this disturbing wish fulfillment was the reason why I commented China,
Modified by youseiki, Nov 25, 2017 5:11 AM
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:57 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
Deknijff said:
ImAWeebUwU said:
If something needs a harem to develop plot, then the author is just terrible tbh.
what justification do you have for such a claim?


Come on, don't tell me you really believe that if something NEEDS to add girls and have a harem to advance plot, instead of actually having some proper plot development doesn't equal to the author being bad...
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:58 AM

Online
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5120
ImAWeebUwU said:
Deknijff said:
what justification do you have for such a claim?


Come on, don't tell me you really believe that if something NEEDS to add girls and have a harem to advance plot, instead of actually having some proper plot development doesn't equal to the author being bad...

He asked you for a justification for your claim

Not a statement that explains absolutely nothing about your stance
 
Nov 24, 2017 10:59 AM
</overrated>

Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 5093
It's pandering. They're trying to fill the need of consumers and having lots of girls lust for dick or having to pick from all these amazing girls is what they want (?)

Maybe Japan should make a census. Granted most people don't know what they want so it's useless.
 
Nov 24, 2017 11:00 AM
Nana Deviluke❤️

Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6943
ImAWeebUwU said:
If something is intended to be harem, that's completely fine, but many series has the harem as a side thing, and it could do perfectly fine without it.
What's the point of it, when it adds absolutely nothing to the plot?
ImAWeebUwU said:
If something needs a harem to develop plot, then the author is just terrible tbh.
I would just like point out to on lookers OP is contradicting himself
if there is an intention its fine yet when its not important to the plot its a problem and shouldn't be there
then when it is plot relevant the author is magically an awful writer
 
Nov 24, 2017 11:03 AM
Nana Deviluke❤️

Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6943
ImAWeebUwU said:
Deknijff said:
what justification do you have for such a claim?
Come on, don't tell me you really believe that if something NEEDS to add girls and have a harem to advance plot, instead of actually having some proper plot development doesn't equal to the author being bad...
it depends on the presentation and the plot of the anime
an idea isn't awful alone. Its a matter of execution and the subject matter that of which the show is focusing on
 
Nov 24, 2017 11:08 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
@Manaban
@Deknijff
Not gonna bother arguing with people who twist my words.
 
Nov 24, 2017 11:10 AM
Nana Deviluke❤️

Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6943
ImAWeebUwU said:
@Manaban
@Deknijff
Not gonna bother arguing with people who twist my words.
please good sir
explain how we are twisting your words.
All I'm doing is showing what you've said and it looks rather foolish to be honest
Modified by Deknijff, Nov 24, 2017 11:19 AM
 
Nov 24, 2017 11:14 AM

Online
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5120
ImAWeebUwU said:
@Manaban
@Deknijff
Not gonna bother arguing with people who twist my words.

Where did we do that, like, at all, whatsoever?

You did in fact say that a harem should be relevant to the plot and it's bad if it isn't plot-relevant, and you did in fact say that a writer who has harem as a key element to the plot is an inherently bad writer. You completely turned that knife on yourself, and Dekn just pointed it out.

On the other hand, when you make a claim and don't explain anything as to how your claim is true, and somebody asks you to explain/justify your stance, simply saying "Don't tell me you need me to explain to you how it's right" is about as close to a non-argument as you get. You explained nothing, you supported your opinion in absolutely no way whatsoever, you didn't even try to discuss anything when your opinion was being pressed. You just dismissed the desire for an explanation with a statement presuming that you are correct and that you shouldn't have to explain anything to anybody.

And yes, you also did in fact bring up wanting to solve the harem problem to me earlier, and when I tried to discuss that with you, you just told me "this is more about the Japanese audience" and then went ahead and just started chatting with whoever agreed with your sentiment. Again, that's on you.

Don't blame others because you're not at all presenting anything to substantiate your claims when asked to do so, and especially don't treat it like we're just twisting your words here.
 
Nov 24, 2017 11:23 AM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
Deknijff said:
ImAWeebUwU said:
If something is intended to be harem, that's completely fine, but many series has the harem as a side thing, and it could do perfectly fine without it.
What's the point of it, when it adds absolutely nothing to the plot?
ImAWeebUwU said:
If something needs a harem to develop plot, then the author is just terrible tbh.
I would just like point out to on lookers OP is contradicting himself
if there is an intention its fine yet when its not important to the plot its a problem and shouldn't be there
then when it is plot relevant the author is magically an awful writer


Here, and
@Manaban you took my words out of context. Not gonna quote that cuz its a big wall of text. Anyways this is the last time I reply.
 
Nov 24, 2017 11:24 AM

Online
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5120
ImAWeebUwU said:
Deknijff said:
I would just like point out to on lookers OP is contradicting himself
if there is an intention its fine yet when its not important to the plot its a problem and shouldn't be there
then when it is plot relevant the author is magically an awful writer


Here, and
@Manaban you took my words out of context. Not gonna quote that cuz its a big wall of text. Anyways this is the last time I reply.

How is that taking your words out of context? It's just two statements you made put side by side - one saying that it's fine but only when it's plot relevant, and the other saying it's bad writing when it's plot relevant. I don't understand in the slightest how it's fine when it's a driving force of the plot and an important part of the narrative, and yet at the same time inherently bad writing when it's a driving force of the plot.

Also, how/where did I do so?

All you have to do is explain. Then we can go from there and actually discuss the topic properly. Just please give some sort of justification/argument to us.
Modified by Manaban, Nov 24, 2017 11:30 AM
 
Nov 24, 2017 11:26 AM
Nana Deviluke❤️

Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6943
ImAWeebUwU said:
Deknijff said:
I would just like point out to on lookers OP is contradicting himself
if there is an intention its fine yet when its not important to the plot its a problem and shouldn't be there
then when it is plot relevant the author is magically an awful writer
Here, and
@Manaban you took my words out of context. Not gonna quote that cuz its a big wall of text. Anyways this is the last time I reply.
thats not a twisting of words
those are your words
Im just pointing out how stupid it looks when you say one thing but then the complete opposite afterwards as demonstrated in this thread
 
Nov 24, 2017 1:44 PM
Offline
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 31398
Idk, I just find it annoying that it gets shoehorned even in shows where the MC is supposed to have a girlfriend and they're labeled romance but then 90% of the show is about random other girls and I'm like, fuck you this is wrong advertising. There's no romance in this just because technically MC has a girlfriend because the show does nothing but throw other, random girls at him every ep.

Like how the fuck do shows like sho-bitch or hajimete no gal or Okusama ga Seitokaichou! (s2 in particular) not have harem tags? That's 90% of what they are about as far as I can tell. That kind of shit triggers me because I can't avoid something I dislike if it isn't properly tagged. But for some reason if you have a girlfriend no matter what the actual anime is about, MAL won't give the show a harem tag which I find retarded.

To me, that is worse than having it as a fairly irrelevant side part of the story like in SAO or Steins;Gate. Those shows clearly have a focus on other things more than the harem so I'm fine with them not being tagged as such even if they have some harem elements. They don't define the show so I can still watch them despite not liking harem stuff. It's easy to ignore to some degree as long as enough other things are going on.

But these kind of shows I listed earlier usually don't have anything else going on. They are literally only about the harem (maybe they have a bit of a focus on the main girl, like 20% of the time and 10% of the time goes to the 8 other girls but that's about it) but still advertise themselves as 'ecchi romance' without the harem aspect. To those shows I say FUCK YOU, why can't you actually be what you promise and just be an ecchi without a harem and with some actual romance? You're my archnemesis in this medium.

I mean I obviously don't like harem but I have no problem with it being a thing, but having a girlfriend and a harem at the same time is just ridiculous. Pick one, monogamy or polygamy but not try to have both in the same show pretending it's normal. Or if you do at least be honest about it and name your show something like 'romance bait but actually I just lust over random girls each ep and my gf gets sidelines after the first ep'. Then I'd at least know what to avoid -.-

So yeah that's pretty much the only thing that triggers me about harems these days. I got over harem aspects being in more action-oriented shows sometimes but I can't get used to having them in supposedly 'romance' anime that sound like they are gonna be about one relationship but then simply aren't.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
Nov 24, 2017 2:46 PM

Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1882
Pullman said:
Idk, I just find it annoying that it gets shoehorned even in shows where the MC is supposed to have a girlfriend and they're labeled romance but then 90% of the show is about random other girls and I'm like, fuck you this is wrong advertising. There's no romance in this just because technically MC has a girlfriend because the show does nothing but throw other, random girls at him every ep.

Like how the fuck do shows like sho-bitch or hajimete no gal or Okusama ga Seitokaichou! (s2 in particular) not have harem tags? That's 90% of what they are about as far as I can tell. That kind of shit triggers me because I can't avoid something I dislike if it isn't properly tagged. But for some reason if you have a girlfriend no matter what the actual anime is about, MAL won't give the show a harem tag which I find retarded.

To me, that is worse than having it as a fairly irrelevant side part of the story like in SAO or Steins;Gate. Those shows clearly have a focus on other things more than the harem so I'm fine with them not being tagged as such even if they have some harem elements. They don't define the show so I can still watch them despite not liking harem stuff. It's easy to ignore to some degree as long as enough other things are going on.

But these kind of shows I listed earlier usually don't have anything else going on. They are literally only about the harem (maybe they have a bit of a focus on the main girl, like 20% of the time and 10% of the time goes to the 8 other girls but that's about it) but still advertise themselves as 'ecchi romance' without the harem aspect. To those shows I say FUCK YOU, why can't you actually be what you promise and just be an ecchi without a harem and with some actual romance? You're my archnemesis in this medium.

I mean I obviously don't like harem but I have no problem with it being a thing, but having a girlfriend and a harem at the same time is just ridiculous. Pick one, monogamy or polygamy but not try to have both in the same show pretending it's normal. Or if you do at least be honest about it and name your show something like 'romance bait but actually I just lust over random girls each ep and my gf gets sidelines after the first ep'. Then I'd at least know what to avoid -.-

So yeah that's pretty much the only thing that triggers me about harems these days. I got over harem aspects being in more action-oriented shows sometimes but I can't get used to having them in supposedly 'romance' anime that sound like they are gonna be about one relationship but then simply aren't.


I know what you mean, and yes, it is really annoying. Same goes for the monogatari series, the guy has a gf, but he is playing around with other girls most of the time... I even asked on the forums if it's a harem but I still got baited... like how is it normal for someone to have a gf do stuff like that? In the shows you mentioned also... really annoying.
 
Top
Pages (3) [1] 2 3 »