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Nov 19, 2017 10:14 PM
#1

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This is kind of an interesting topic, imo. We use animals for science, sport, and factory farming all the time. It's not exactly moral on one hand, but you could also argue on the other hand that only humans matter (self-preservation).

There are many views on this, such as:

a) Contractarianism - Basically, morality consists of a set of rules that individuals voluntarily agree to abide by, as we do when we "sign a contract." However, animals cannot understand contracts and obviously cannot sign. Like children, some animals are the objects of the sentimental interest of others. It is in the parents' interests that their children are protected/cared for. You, for example, love your dog or cat. so those animals that enough people care about will be protected because of that interest.

b) Inherent value theory - All living things have basic value or worth.

I thought of this thread due to something I had to read for Philosophy class.

Source: Tom Regan's "The Case for Animal Rights."
ZelevNov 19, 2017 10:36 PM





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Nov 19, 2017 10:26 PM
#2

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I'm all up for rights of animals. Humans, as the only intelectual species on earth (that has been discovered), we have to care for animals.

Just like we take care of environment and plants (trees), we care for all other species.


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Nov 19, 2017 10:29 PM
#3

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Being a dog lover has made me pro-animal rights.
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Nov 19, 2017 10:33 PM
#4

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It's a rabbit hole of morality I really don't want to get in for selfish reasons. I benefit far too much from animal cruelty; sausages, steaks, bacon, beef, ribs, and so on. I'd rather just not think about it lol.

The morality and value issue in philosophy is complicated and I honestly don't have the time or skills to read the literature, but I do feel humans shouldn't really torture and mistreat animals the way we do.
Nov 19, 2017 10:34 PM
#5

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All living things have the same worth. Humans place more value on other humans because we are a social animal.

What that value actually is, is debatable.
Nov 19, 2017 10:40 PM
#6
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Humans as the dominant species should take some responsebility for thise planet
Nov 19, 2017 11:31 PM
#7

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My personal opinion is that animals don't necessarily hold the same level of value compared to human life. That's not to say it'll be ok to go around slaughtering animals for fun, but people who speak of animals being eaten as though its the end of the world need to calm down.

That said, I feel that most meat eaters have this double standard, where certain meats are more ok than other... for some reason... for me it'd give anything other than human meat a try. I've eaten anything from not-so-common-meats to chicken/pork innards to eating the fish eyes. I don't think I could find insect cuisines anywhere in my country though... I don't see how it's any more gross that eating the wing or leg of a chicken? On the other hand, I lose my appetite when there are broken bones in my chicken wings, it's kinda gross.

Imo, the only stance that is consistent is "I'll try any animal meat" or "I won't eat any meat". However most normal people are weird, with some strange acceptance to certain meats because it's somehow more normal and complete disgust towards other types. People give China lots of shit for eating animals they deem are "pets", but I'd be up to give dog or cat meat a try if I'm sure the chef didn't just nab someone's pet (which is the only thing I'm against with regards to the China and dog meat issue).
I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters.

If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate.

Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too.
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Nov 20, 2017 12:00 AM
#8

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As a part of this planet we should cooperate with the rest of nature as much as we can.

That said, I'll go with whatever popular opinion decides at any given time, just as long as it's not barbaric or heinously cruel.

Rights are something we invented, but it's something we treat as an intrinsic fact of life, but it's for good reason. Maybe I can answer it more along the lines of... within my own world, animals and all living creatures have certain rights, of which some will be put aside in the interest of sustaining the naturally higher rights of humans. Although, it's not in my interest to push the rights that I dictate onto anyone else.
Nov 20, 2017 12:07 AM
#9

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There's no denying that people in general care more about animals that have a close relationship with humans, like dogs for example. Personally, I wouldn't directly harm any animal but I still eat meat. I don't agree with how some animals are treated in slaughterhouses but me not eating meat is going to stop that when over 90% of the worldwide population are omnivores. It would take something pretty drastic to make the world consume less meat or not consume any at all.

Nov 20, 2017 1:31 AM

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It's very hard to tell, because if you look at the extreme positions, "even bacteria feel things just as intensely as human beings" or "even chimps don't feel things at all, they're just mechanisms which work in a similar way to people" - you can't disprove either of those positions. So I think it has to come down primarily to personal choice.
Nov 20, 2017 1:32 AM

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I don't know, they're just animals, and soon they will be more important than people.
Nov 20, 2017 1:34 AM

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Thing is, not even all pets have rights. For instance pocket pets for the most part, are mostly considered livestock and are held under different laws. Sometimes this can come in handy, like when you want to perform your own medical care on your pet rat. But Other times it is unfortunate, because the law doesn't care about most livestock being treated badly.

I just feel until humanely killed, animals should be respected and given a good life and not a shit one.
The anime community in a nutshell.
Nov 20, 2017 5:58 AM
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Animals are just animals, nothing more to it, but whenever I see a comment stating that an animal's life has the same value as human's one, my blood boils.
Nov 20, 2017 7:19 AM

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A song I hadn't heard in a while came on the radio just the other day and I got this euphoric sense of joy, unattributed nostalgia and epiphany all at once. Like, my brain just associated this song with pleasure, simple as that. But a slow and stunning sadness crept into me for I couldn't remember exactly why I was feeling what I was feeling; but still stood there staring up, thinking that at one time something simple as a song had clung to my memory.

Had molded with a happening that changed me.

I could be convinced to not eat creatures who share these kinds of feelings; but I don't know that they're out there.
Nov 20, 2017 9:11 AM

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Extreme cases of animal cruelty (like someone literally torturing a pet for fun for example) should be punishable by death.

As far as the meat industry goes, I think there should be more oversight into how livestock are treated to make sure they aren't being abused, but overall I still support it. People who are vegan/vegetarian because of this don't realize that tractors and other agricultural equipment kills just as many animals who are unfortunate enough to get caught under them.
Nov 20, 2017 9:17 AM

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Completely amoral to the concept honestly. Obviously I don't go out of my way hurt things that are around me. I leave things alone that leave me alone. However, on the diet side, even if the entire world went vegan, I would still eat meat if given the opportunity. No amount of social or peer pressure will ever change that. It is now a part of my nature. A nature that I do not care to change.
Well, I would like to say that I felt differently when I was younger, possibly more passionate. Having a more self-righteous zest for life and all that. But that isn't true either. As far as I can recollect I have never really considered it right or wrong. Though i do consider humans who abuse those that trust them, like, for instance their pets to be subhuman trash, so there is that.
Nov 20, 2017 9:22 AM
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I am a huge advocate for the rights of dogs, cats, pets, and other species established as endangered or at risk for endangerment (though I’m not a vegetarian). After volunteering at an animal shelter for a year, and a no kill (meaning they don’t euthanize due to overcrowding) one no less. I’ve witnessed a lot of suffering and recuperation, and aided in taking care of animals, witnessed them recover and be adopted to loving homes after sometimes years of mistreatment. As a pet owner myself I wouldn’t mind dangling animal abusers by their toes and letting blood pool at the base of their brains, that’s the kind of punishment they deserve.

I’m enraged by the abuses of pet owners & poachers to many poor, unsuspecting animals. In the case of pets, it’s painful to see because pets are full of unconditional love, and have no idea that they’re being abused, but eventually become traumatized if abuse becomes repetitive, and it takes a lot of loving and therapy to have them recover from that. In the case of endangered and threatened species, poachers sell their parts and hides and essentially kill off the entire species, and this has happened with many species over the years, for selfish personal gains; and future generations may never get to experience the beauty of seeing certain species thanks to the selfish nature of poachers.
Nov 20, 2017 2:03 PM

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Don't worry fam, there's no way in this world that I'd eat cat or dog. And, I don't really care much about animal rights or shit, I mean why should I when I don't really care that much about Human rights :/
Nov 20, 2017 2:38 PM

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A lot of people are confusing eating animal products with a lack of compassion for animal rights, I don't believe that one has to be a vegan to support animal rights.

I became a vegan because I have plenty of affordable alternatives available to me, I don't need to eat meat because I can get an equally nutritious meal without overspending on "trendy" vegan food.

But animals would still get killed and eaten even if everyone went vegan, it's the circle of life, other animals would just be the ones doing the eating. Which is why I think that animal rights is less about protecting the life of the animal, and more about ensuring that the animal lives a comfortable life and is killed humanely.

At the moment, there are massive meat "factories" where cows are kept in cramped yards, fed nothing but gruel, and most of the animal ends up getting thrown away after it's slaughtered. The dairy industry is even worse, where calves are taken from their mothers and killed just to get some milk. Don't even get me started on "free range" eggs.

There are options available that minimise animal cruelty, the only problem is they're more expensive and few and far between. But that's all beside the point, the point is that eating animal products doesn't mean you're breaching animal rights, but you should be informed about just what happens to the food you're eating, and if you're going to eat meat try and find a range that's cruelty free or organic.
Nov 20, 2017 4:44 PM

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its the law of the jungle mwahahahaha
Nov 20, 2017 4:47 PM
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Would a shark worry about my rights?
Nov 20, 2017 5:19 PM

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SnugglyWhuggly said:
In my experience, animal rights organisations tend to do more harm for animals than good. They kill otherwise healthy animals because "it's better for them to be dead than to suffer" in their ideology, they only support some species of animals, usually those that are "cute", mammalian and easy to anthropomorphise (how many animal rights groups do you see protesting against shark finning in comparison to factory farming, fur farming and seal clubbing?)

How many people do you observe eating shark meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner? How many shark meat advertisements do you see and/or hear every day? Animal rights activists mostly protest factory farming because its products are shoved in their faces all the time. This serves as a constant reminder to them that factory farming is accepted by society even though it causes extensive harm. It's wrong to assume that these activists only care about mammals though, as they also protest the maltreatment and slaughter of other animals including fish.

And they spread false rumours/facts based on a few photo or videos they see without even bothering to actually do research into it (seen so many people claim that animals are "skinned alive" for fur for example, or that sheep are sheared down to their skin when removing their wool. This is not normal industry standard, and if you don't shear a sheep, you end up getting something like this, which overheats, causing obvious health problems and even death:)

Domestic sheep like the one in the photo you provided have to be sheared thanks to selective breeding carried out by people who care more about profit than welfare. You mentioned death being a possible outcome for sheep if they aren't sheared, but left out that most of them meet unfortunate ends in slaughterhouses anyway.

To be blunt, a lot of people that support animal rights just seem really uneducated.

As opposed to people who think plant-based diets are worse for the environment and human health, and believe most farm animals are treated nicely?

I do think animals should be treated with respect, but animals are not humans, and should not be treated like humans. Anthropomorphising animals can actually be seriously harmful to them, depending on the extent of it.

I believe they're entitled to their "five freedoms" of welfare standard, but I also don't believe it's morally "wrong" to use animals for our own needs, as long as their suffering is minimised. Animals do not care about inflicting suffering upon other living things, some will even do so deliberately for their own means of enrichment, such as cats killing small animals they don't intend to eat, and dolphins killing porpoises for sport.

I've been working with animals for the past 2 years now, and while they're a joy to work with, they can be dangerous and unpredictable no matter how close your relationship to them is. You can't apply the same moral and ethical codes to animals as you would expect from another human. Many animals do have their own sets of morals and ethics, but they're not humans, don't expect them to think and behave like humans.

Until someone can prove to me that animals are as "innocent" and intelligent as some animal rights supporters claim, I don't view animals as being on the same "level" as humans, so to speak. Most species cannot understand or abide the same laws and ethics as ourselves, so they can't be granted the exact same rights as humans.

You’re attacking a straw man.
Nov 20, 2017 6:09 PM

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I support the idea of animals having rights...mainly the animals that are endangered because well, they might become extinct.
Nov 20, 2017 6:13 PM

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I certainly believe in that "inherent value theory," but I'm no vegan. If animals are being killed for sustenance, then go ahead and kill em. I believe plants have inherent value as well, but I'll eat up all the fuckn broccoli I want. That's life.
Nov 20, 2017 6:34 PM

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It is my firm belief that animals should have more rights than humans do. Of all the species of animals in the world, humans are dead last on that list. I would donate an animal shelter before I give a penny to any human-serviced organization. They are still mighty delicious though
Nov 20, 2017 11:34 PM
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CondemneDio said:
All living things have the same worth. Humans place more value on other humans because we are a social animal.

What that value actually is, is debatable.


What about cockroaches, rats and mosquitoes?
Nov 21, 2017 2:16 AM

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AA5x4 said:
CondemneDio said:
All living things have the same worth. Humans place more value on other humans because we are a social animal.

What that value actually is, is debatable.


What about cockroaches, rats and mosquitoes?

They're living things just like us, trying to survive. All three have found ways to take advantage of us humans, which is interesting.
Nov 21, 2017 11:39 AM

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humans are used for everything all the time but yeah we should protect other species too
Nov 21, 2017 12:57 PM
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All animals have rights in this world. No exceptions.
Why? Because that's the most moral thing that should exist.
I repeat, SHOULD exist, but unfortunately sometimes that moral thing it's not there when it should be.
-Mayhem-Nov 25, 2017 11:34 AM
Nov 21, 2017 12:59 PM

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Animals don't deserve to have rights because they are stupid and don't have feelings.
Seriously, everyone says dogs are intelligent. But if they're so smart then how come they never move out of the way when I stub my cigarettes out on them?

Nov 21, 2017 1:02 PM

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Animals have no souls so it's okay to eat them
Nico- said:
@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite
Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained
Nov 21, 2017 1:17 PM

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Well, I happen to be a pretty strict vegan with all that it entails.
Philosophically, my view is that our primary duty is to refrain from evil deeds. Causing needless suffering and death is evil; therefore one should not cause needless suffering and death.
Animals suffer and die needlessly for human desires. Not categorically so but generally; I mean, I think every creature has a right to try to survive and to defend themselves, so I wouldn't mind killing an animal that seriously threatens me if that is the only option.

I'm somewhat agnostic when it comes to value. What is value really? Doesn't value require an evaluator? The evaluator would have to be transcendent for such a moral philosophy to be objectively valid. Well, that could be something like God - and I already believe in God (or I might say 'divinity' - I'm not referring to some silly god-as-per-Dawkins entity) but I haven't really thought much about that particular perspective. Now, you might say "how can suffering be meaningless if a creature doesn't have value", and that's a good question. I might say that suffering in itself has value. Perhaps it comes down to equivocation. Do we have value precisely because our suffering and joy matters or does our suffering and joy matter because we have value?
AburadakoNov 21, 2017 1:29 PM
Nov 21, 2017 2:24 PM
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7567
Animal cruelty/abuse should still be a crime but I wouldn't place them on the same level as humans. I see nothing with eating meat for example.
Nov 21, 2017 5:55 PM

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SnugglyWhuggly said:
https://voices.nationalgeographic.org/2013/03/01/100-million-sharks-killed-every-year-study-shows-on-eve-of-international-conference-on-shark-protection/
To quote: "An estimated 100 million sharks are killed every year with fins from up to 73 million used for shark fin soup, primarily to supply the market in Mainland China"
Shark meat may not be as common as domestic livestock meat, but that doesn't mean it isn't common. It's happening at a very alarming rate in the east. Just because you think it may not concern you because you "don't see it shoved in your face every day", that doesn't mean it isn't an issue. One issue being "bigger" than another does not invalidate the other rather big issue. This is like saying because you don't live in Syria and don't have to be faced with the constant issues there, that it isn't an issue because you don't observe it every day. May not be an issue for you personally, but that doesn't make it a non-issue to others or the world in general.
A lot of activists do only care about mammals, from what I've seen. The people that are actually fighting to try and help the less "cute" animals are people that have actually studies extensively in their fields. I hate to say it, but a lot of animal rights activists I've come across lack even a college education. I'm obviously speaking of personal experience here, but that's all I have to go on. I could be completely wrong and the majority of animal rights activists have very sound education within their fields, but all the evidence I've come across points to the contrary.
I'm not saying that factory farmed animals are less important, I realise it's a massive issue, but you can't ignore other issues because of it. If you care about animals, you don't cherry pick your favourites.

I’m aware that millions of sharks are killed every year in the east, and I do think that it’s an issue. My point was that it wouldn’t make sense to focus on spreading awareness about shark finning to an audience that largely doesn’t eat shark meat, but does eat farm animal meat. That being said, animal rights activists do care about the cruelty inflicted on sharks:
http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/7-alarming-facts-about-the-shark-fin-trade/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0p_LdfgmxQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLgkrQSRy9E
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/michaellevin/why-peta-hates-mark-the-s_b_13768940.html
https://prime.peta.org/2011/04/sharks
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/disturbing-a-delicate-balance-how-shark-finning-is-killing-coral-reefs

You have to remember that livestock were domesticated in the first place for resources. We didn't just decide to keep sheep as pets because they're cute and cuddly, they were domesticated for their wool and meat. True, some breeds have been selectively bred to produce more wool than others, but what's your point? The sheep still needs to be sheared. If you don't want sheep that have genetic health issues, then don't breed them in the future, it's not anyone's fault the breed exists in the first place, aside from those that created the breed of course.

Did domesticating sheep for their wool and meat stop them from possessing feelings and desires? No. All it did was make it easier for humans to take advantage of them.

I was referring to the wool industry when talking about sheep and shearing. The meat industry and the wool industry are two separate things, and sheep used for wool are rarely going to be used for meat, and vice versa. Obviously it depends though.

Please provide a source that states that most sheep raised for wool aren’t slaughtered for their meat. As far as I know, the wool industry is connected to the meat industry just as the dairy and egg industries are connected to the meat industry.

I never even mentioned plant-based diets, and I've personally never met anyone who thinks the latter.

The responses to popular videos and articles on animal rights show that there are many people who assume such things, which makes it easy for them to continue to support harmful industries that use animals. I used to be one of them. I didn’t know that the high demand for animal products was contributing to health problems and environmental destruction, or that modern animal farming had reprehensible standard practices.

Ironically, you just made a "strawman" in your previous quote. You're going to need to do a bit more explaining here instead of simply replying to 4 paragraphs with a single sentence claim that doesn't offer me anything.

Animal rights activists aren’t fighting for non-human animals to have “the exact same rights as humans”. They believe that animals deserve the right to live free from human exploitation/abuse. That’s it. When activists protest the meat industry, they simply want people to acknowledge that farm animals are conscious beings with the capacity to experience pain and suffering. Needlessly exploiting and slaughtering such beings is not treating them with respect, it’s blatant animal cruelty. Meat eaters who “cherry pick" what animals they care about have difficulty seeing that.
MischievousGhostNov 21, 2017 10:38 PM
Nov 21, 2017 6:37 PM

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Of course animals should have rights. the right of being treated with decency and the right of freedom, two things that humanity stole them. The planet was "conquered" by Humans but it doesn´t mean its ours. We weren´t born alone, the planet belongs to all species.
If we have to eat them, then they don´t need to suffer to die.
We shouldn't even eat them and its very unfortunate that we have to.
The only way for humanity to understand how it's like to be in their shoes would be if someday a superior race populated Earth and decided to eat humans, breed them in farms and then killing them with cruelty instead of being quick and clean. Since that is not gonna happen, humanity will destroy the nature, the animals, and itself. Enough said.

ワンダーランド花 ♥

Nov 21, 2017 6:43 PM

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Animals should have rights cause aren't humans also animals? I understand animals aren't as intelligent as humans but that doesn't mean that they can't have rights, doing evil against animals is inhumane and the only reason a person should hurt/kill an animal is if they needed to protect themselves (well depends on the situation tbh, I doubt most people have tranquilizers and they don't act right away so... rip) or wanted to gain food, also on the topic of gaining meats, I think the animals that provide these meats should have a peaceful life and death.
Aidoru-OjisanNov 21, 2017 6:51 PM

Ascended Taste
I only came back to this site for the forum sets and to promote my RYM list... Anilist ftw still :dab:
Nov 21, 2017 6:48 PM

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They should have some sort of general rights, especially in the vein of 'don't harm them without reason'.


╮ (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.) ╭

Nov 21, 2017 7:02 PM

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as long as an animal is killed quickly and relatively painlessly to be prepared for my consumption,or if i have to kill it for my protection I'm ok with it. this is how the food chain works, im a part of the food chain, and so i feel i must respect the natural order.

but beating an animal, torturing it, and otherwise being an ass ticks me off.

on the topic of eating animals usually considered as pets, just don't kill my pet and I won't have to kill you.
Nov 21, 2017 7:08 PM

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Indifferent, regardless of what we do, humans will undoubtedly treat animals as lesser due to their selfish nature. This isn't inherently evil, just human nature. Same for the death of people we don't know, sure it's "sad", but give someone 5 minutes to an hour and they will be fine. Why, because the suffering of things outside our scope never hits us hard. Ultimately adopt policies and morality that are convenient for us and that's how life goes by. Just don't paint it black and white as almost nothing is in life is ever that simple. Even the examples I have listed probably have exceptions.


come, you sweet hour of death
Nov 21, 2017 7:48 PM

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46845
I think all animals should have some rights but how much depends on what animal they are and their capacity to feel pain and have sentience.
Nov 21, 2017 7:57 PM
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I'm curious to know what supposed scientific law people think is supposed to grant any living thing "intrinsic rights."

The idea of intrinsic rights is as flawed as that of intrinsic good or intrinsic evil. You can't make an argument for "why" anything intrinsically possesses such rights without eventually falling back on circular reasoning or a baseless assumption.

If, however, you wish for animals (or humans, for that matter) to be afforded such rights, then all you have to do is fight (nonviolently) for that wish. Fight to ensure they are afforded the protection you desire for them - that you feel they "should" have. Not because of an illusion of "intrinsic rights," but because it's the path you've chosen.

The same goes if, like me, you're a particularly staunch advocate of mankind's continued ability to eat chicken nuggets.
Important Note: I no longer - in any way, shape, or form - consider myself a moral nihilist (even in my old, convoluted definition of the term). I very much do believe there is such a thing as objective good and evil. In addition, I apologize for any of the posts I've made that are rude, aggressive, or otherwise unbecoming.

I've always striven to walk a path befitting a follower of Christ, and now recognize some of my old comments here as misguided if not outright wrong. If you happen upon them, pray do not let them darken your view of the God I serve. He is kind, even if I, at times, have not been.
Nov 22, 2017 9:03 AM

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They have the right to be in my plate or in my sandwich if they taste good. Otherwise, you stay out of my sight.
Nov 23, 2017 6:48 AM

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SnugglyWhuggly said:
...Did I ever say that it did? You seem to be coming up with your own points to counter now.

I was emphasizing why the domestication of sheep for resources doesn’t justify how we’re treating them. If I misinterpreted your post, then I apologize.

http://www.iwto.org/sheep
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merino
http://www.bowmontuk.com/

Like I said though, it does depend. Some wool does come from slaughtered lambs, but in general, different breeds are bred for different purposes. There are quite a few breeds of sheep that are generally bred only for their wool, the Merino being one of them. The Merino that are bred more-so for meat don't produce as much wool.
Mind you, I don't really know what the situations are like in countries outside the UK/Europe and Australia, and none of them are innocent of poor welfare when it comes to sheep and shearing either. I'm not saying the wool industry is perfect, there's obvious concerns, but I do get frustrated when farmers in general are just all lumped together as being "evil animal abusers". Not saying you specifically, just what I've seen from some animal rights activists, just demonising anyone that dares to even own or interact with an animal.

Unless I missed something, none of those links support your claim. I don’t doubt there are farmers who cherish their sheep, but the reality is that most sheep bred for their wool are sent off to slaughter when they get older and less productive, since keeping them alive would be costly. Their meat is generally low quality, but it’s still something for farm owners to profit from.

I don't read responses to youtube videos or PETA articles (just speaking in general), but I personally would not take them seriously in the first place, they're not the most professional places on the interwebs.

The articles on animal rights I mentioned are from popular news sources such as The New York Times and The Huffington Post. I’m not a fan of PETA articles for various reasons.

The demand for animal products is definitely having a large negative impact on the planet, but vegetarianism and veganism isn't without its downsides either: Forests and other natural habitats still need to be destroyed to make way for agricultural land for crops to grow. Animals lose their homes as a result, and small animals that move into the new area are in danger of being killed by tractors and other equipment when the lands are fertilised and harvested.

Life feeds on life, that's just the harsh reality we have to face. We can try to minimise suffering caused, but I don't think it's possible to eliminate it completely.

I don’t get when a call for change is dismissed on the basis that we can't reach perfection. It’s true that veganism is far from ideal, but as you already know, it results in less suffering than carnism because it doesn't entail the exploitation of animals.

Rights are a human concept in the first place though. It's kind of hard to have a mutual respect with animals when they have no mutual understanding of what respect or rights even are.

Given that humans can’t establish mutual respect with sharks, why do you think the practice of shark finning is cruel? Is it not because you’re considering the sentience of sharks?

Believing animals should not be exploited or abused is all fine and all, but it's obviously more complicated than that. Putting humans aside, without the meat industry, how would we feed our own pets, or animals in zoological collections? Perhaps you (you in general here) believe we shouldn't have pets either, or that zoos shouldn't exist, but obviously neither are going away any time soon, and there's plenty of convincing arguments that both are beneficial for the animals themselves.

Personally, I think animals used for human resources need to have higher welfare standards as a whole, and I'd like to see the demand for meat dying down as time progresses. Hopefully, in several years time, laboratory grown meat or other alternatives will take over as the new "norm" instead of real meat.
But as things are going at the moment, I'm more worried about the human population reaching its carrying capacity; I think we're just going to run out of resources in general if we keep reproducing at the rate we're going.

That’s the thing with meat: even though we don’t need to consume it to be healthy, it’s deeply ingrained into our culture. Still, no one’s expecting all animal farms to stop operating overnight. What activists are anticipating is a gradual shift away from animal products as more people realize the negatives to meat consumption. By the time the meat industry dies out, I’m pretty sure lab grown meat will be available for obligate carnivores who are under the care of humans.
Nov 23, 2017 12:50 PM

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201
I've only had Peach the parrot for a day and a half, but if anything happened to him, I would kill everybody in this room and then myself.
Nov 24, 2017 1:46 PM

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SnugglyWhuggly said:
There's different breeds of sheep primarily bred for different purposes, that was kind of the point in my links.
All sheep bred solely for wool need to do is produce wool, they don't need to do much in order to do that, it happens naturally. I don't know about other countries, but mutton is not a thing here. All the sheep meat you'll find in supermarkets and restaurants is lamb. All old sheep is going to be good for is dog and cat meat, and perhaps meat for zoo animals. But farmers would profit more from a sheep that is producing wool, than a dead one.
If we're talking about really old sheep that are close to death's door, then sure, they may get sent to slaughter, but by that point, I'd say it's more beneficial for feeding other animals, then keeping an old sheep alive.

Ok, so you admit that most sheep bred for wool are slaughtered.

I never dismissed a "call for change", I'm just saying that it's impossible to live and not feed on something else that is also alive. That's something a lot of the more sanctimonious vegans seem to forget in my experience, they seem to develop this "saintly" persona for themselves, believing themselves to be above other people that are "carnists" as you put it, because they believe they're "better people" for not eating meat, when in reality, no one is innocent.

The character of some vegans is irrelevant to the validity of veganism. I’d appreciate it if you’d focus on attacking the message and not the messengers.

Does veganism help reduce suffering and environmental destruction? Yes or no?

Veganism may not entail the deliberate exploitation of animals, but it's still no better for the environment or animal's natural habitats in the long term.

That’s a load of bs.

Look at the negative global environmental trends listed in this thread:
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1683427

Then look at one of the solutions specified in the source of the news: "promoting a dietary shift toward plant-based foods".

Or better yet, read through this:



If you're already aware that exploiting animals for resources is largely unsustainable, then I don't understand the purpose of your post. Is it that since we can't avoid harming animals and the environment, we might as well not hold back?

The key word there is mutual, sentience has nothing to do with whether or not there's mutual respect or understanding. Even other human beings won't always have mutual respect for one another.. Animals generally don't care about us, but that doesn't mean we should make them suffer unnecessarily.

I think shark finning is cruel because there's no reason to fin a shark that is still alive, then throw it back in the ocean to drown. But a shark may still occasionally devour a human being. There's no right or wrong there for the shark, but if humans have the ability to minimise suffering caused, they should always try and opt for that whenever possible.

Now if shark finning was more humane and sustainable, not killing sharks at an alarming rate and removing their fins while alive or conscious, I wouldn't be so opposed. I don't know if that makes me a hypocrite in some way, but the way I see it, until animals decide to remove themselves from the food chain, I see no reason for us to do so as well. And I know you'll likely say that many animals don't have a choice in the matter, but some omnivorous animals technically do.

>Animals generally don’t care about us, but that doesn’t mean we should make them suffer unnecessarily.
If you don’t think it’s acceptable for non-human sentient beings to suffer unnecessarily at the hands of humans, then you already understand the reasoning behind veganism.

>I think shark finning is cruel because there's no reason to fin a shark that is still alive, then throw it back in the ocean to drown.
You say that there’s no reason for shark finning when in actuality it has reasons similar to the ones behind animal farming: profitability, resources, convenience, palate pleasure, and tradition.

>if humans have the ability to minimise suffering caused, they should always try and opt for that whenever possible.
Then why are you so opposed to veganism?

>until animals decide to remove themselves from the food chain, I see no reason for us to do so as well.
There’s plenty of reasons for us to stop eating meat when we have alternatives. Don’t pretend there’s none. As I see it, humans have the cognitive capacity to know better than other animals. It’s pretty convenient for you to say that humans aren’t like other animals, then say that we should act like other animals.

Actually, we do. Especially when we're still growing; there's been plenty of stories of children and babies dying or becoming seriously malnourished due to their parents enforcing a strict vegan diet on them. Our digestive systems aren't really built for a strict vegan diet. We can certainly survive on it, but it's hard to be as healthy as you may want to be unless you're seriously monitoring your diet.

There's advantages and disadvantages to pretty much everything in life. I'll take the advice of nutritionists over that of vegans any day of the week, personally.

If you read past the clickbait titles that fit your bias, you would have known those parents fed their children extremely limited diets (e.g. only soy milk), and didn’t bother doing any research on the appropriate foods to give to children on vegan diets.

This is what some dietary organizations have to say about vegan diets:

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.
Dietitians of Canada
A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults.
The British National Health Service
With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.
The British Nutrition Foundation
A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.
The Dietitians Association of Australia
Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.
The United States Department of Agriculture
Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy.
The National Health and Medical Research Council
Alternatives to animal foods include nuts, seeds, legumes, beans and tofu. For all Australians, these foods increase dietary variety and can provide a valuable, affordable source of protein and other nutrients found in meats. These foods are also particularly important for those who follow vegetarian or vegan dietary patterns. Australians following a vegetarian diet can still meet nutrient requirements if energy needs are met and the appropriate number and variety of serves from the Five Food Groups are eaten throughout the day. For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended.
The Mayo Clinic
A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.
The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada
Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits.
Harvard Medical School
Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.

When plant-based diets become more mainstream, it will become much easier for people to know what foods they should eat on a plant-based diet, because by then, it will be covered in education and it will become plain common sense. Plus, food companies will gear their products with the dietary change in mind.

Especially when so many vegans take their diet choice as an ideology/doctrine that must be imposed upon others, rather than just a personal choice.

Eating meat is not a mere personal choice when this is what many animals have to be needlessly subjected to as a result:



By the way you word that with "obligate carnivores", it almost sounds like you want to ban meat entirely, even artificial meat.

No, I wouldn’t have any qualms with people eating artificial meat because no animals would be deliberately harmed in the making of it.
MischievousGhostNov 24, 2017 7:38 PM
Nov 24, 2017 2:54 PM

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Sep 2014
78
I feel kinda bad with a short reply after the last couple but here goes.

I think if you keep an animal as a pet and it is completely dependent on you, abusing it is comparable to neglecting a child. I believe human life is more important than any animal, but if any living thing depends on you I think it is your duty to be a good provider, and if you aren't you should not be allowed to care for it and be penalized heavily by law.

As for domesticated animals and livestock I believe they at the very least deserve to spend their time alive in peace. I'm an avid meat eater but the idea of any animal being knowingly tortured disgusts me. There are humane ways to kill animals for food, and if the downside to using these is increased prices or more scarce meat, I feel that is a small price to pay.
Nov 26, 2017 10:32 AM

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Feb 2010
11919
I am for animal rights up to a point things like the human bot fly and other parasitic animals that specifically target humans (and only humans,) should be viewed as a threat to humanities survival.

bears lions crocidles etc are fine since they don't only go after human.

"among monsters and humans, there are only two types.
Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice
“Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume
“Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus

Nov 27, 2017 9:46 AM

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Mar 2012
319
SnugglyWhuggly said:
...No? Reread what I wrote.

“If we're talking about really old sheep that are close to death's door, then sure, they may get sent to slaughter, but by that point, I'd say it's more beneficial for feeding other animals, then keeping an old sheep alive.”

Not really. This is like saying the character of some communists is irrelevant to the validity of communism. The idea/theory behind something can be great, but what matters is how it's put into action. The "messengers" are the ones spreading their message, I have every right to criticise how they spread it.

Veganism when put into action does reduce suffering, no matter how annoying you find vegans who speak up for animals. If you agreed with veganism itself, then your comment would make a little more sense, but you don’t. What you’re doing is just a red herring tactic. It’s easier to criticize vegans than it is to argue against veganism.

In the grand scheme of things? No, especially the latter.

What do you mean by “in the grand scheme of things”?

It's great and all that you take this so seriously that you have a bunch of bookmarks stored to copy and paste for moments like this on the internet to try and prove your point. But unfortunately, most people (myself included), don't have the time or patience to read through a bunch of links. If you want to make your point, you're gonna need to summarise.

In short, [plants → humans] is more energy-efficient than [plants → animals → humans].
[Plants → animals → humans] produces a lot more greenhouse gas emissions than [plants → humans].
[Plants → animals → humans] requires a lot more land and water than [plants → humans].
[Plants → animals → humans] produces a lot more waste than [plants → humans].

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/549
http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM

Hopefully, I saved you some time with that simple summary.

I don't have a bunch of bookmarks stored unfortunately, so these links are just from quick google searches that I just skimmed. But in general, vegetarian diets are considered some of the most sustainable, over vegan:

https://www.elementascience.org/articles/10.12952/journal.elementa.000116/
https://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt-as-environmentally-friendly-as-you-think/
https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/sustainability/sustainability.html?limit=1&start=2

You’re basing your position (veganism is no better for the environment in the long term) on one study, which concludes, “The findings of this study support the idea that dietary change towards plant-based diets has significant potential to reduce the agricultural land requirements of U.S. consumers and increase the carrying capacity of U.S. agricultural resources.” Ironically, meat lovers who want to continue eating tons of meat in peace are the ones taking advantage of the study:

https://imgur.com/a/DJx3j

It should be noted that the study assumes that we won't repurpose land to make it suitable for growing human-edible crops.

Um, no. I even literally said I wouldn't be so opposed to shark finning if it wasn't so unsustainable and cruel.

What about modern animal farming?

I do understand the reasoning behind it, but I don't understand the "killing other animals is always wrong, period" ideology behind it.

That’s because you’re making it up. It's ok to kill animals for survival/self-defense under veganism. Shooting a bear because it was attacking you or other humans, hunting animals because you don’t have access to alternative nutritious food sources (as in the case of the Inuit), and killing insects because they’re infesting your house are all generally seen as acceptable.

...I said there is no reason to fin a shark that is STILL ALIVE and throw it back into the ocean to drown. There are more humane ways of doing it.

Most farm animals are mistreated in the time that they’re living. Like I said, animal farming is done with convenience/profit in mind, just like shark finning.

The term “humane slaughter” reminds me of “clean coal”.

I don't like giving arbitrary value to life. I personally don't think the lives of animals are "more important" than the lives of plant and fungi. An ability to "suffer" does not make something more deserving of life imho.

You work with animals, yet you think they deserve the same consideration as plants? Even if you truly believe that killing a sentient, emotional being with thoughts and conscious desires is just like killing a plant, a vegan diet results in less plant deaths.

Never said there's none, I just said I don't see the reason for humans to stop eating meat when other animals are continuing to devour each other. If you believe humans have the cognitive ability to "know better" than other animals, then maybe animals aren't as sentient as you say? If a human doesn't want to eat meat, I see no issue with it. It's a personal choice, but plenty of people seem to believe it's more than that.
Eating other animals is not the same as acting like other animals. There's an obvious difference.

Sapience is different from sentience. Your reason for humans continuing to eat meat is that animals eat other animals, so yes, you are saying that we might as well act like other animals, except only in the ways that are convenient for you.

And your links don't fit your bias? I have read other articles aside from the "clickbait" ones, and yes, there's definitely some parents that obviously haven't done much research into vegan diets, but that's not to say all of them were/are ignorant. You're still ignoring the fact however that some people physically cannot survive on a strict vegan diet.
Also, just skimming some of your links, some of the quotes seem to contradict each other.

My point was that many people don’t bother reading the actual content of articles so long as the titles satisfy their biases. I gave you those links because you said, “I'll take the advice of nutritionists over that of vegans any day of the week, personally.”

IF they become more mainstream. This is the issue I have with people such as you, in all honesty; you seem to believe your way of life is the only "true way", and every other option is irrelevant. People that have different diets are clearly ignorant and need to be educated. You completely ignore all the faults in your own ideology and diet, while turning a blind eye to any positives and just plan necessities there may be in other options.

It feels like veganism to a small minority has become a religion more than just a lifestyle choice. And as has already been proven by being too extreme with personal ideologies with all the terrorism going on in the world nowadays, being wilfully blinded by your own ideology is never mentally healthy.

Veganism is based on facts, whereas religion is based on faith.

I predict plant-based eating will become more mainstream because we won’t be able to ignore the environmental and health consequences of our high meat consumption for long. Even the Elementa study you gave me supported plant-based eating.

I've never once said that being vegan can't be healthy or sustainable to the planet,

You literally said that you’re opposed to veganism because it supposedly isn’t sustainable.

but it isn't some golden cure to all the Earth's problem. Nothing is perfect, you always need to be critical of even the things you generally agree with or believe in.
Veganism does not make you a saint that is free from blood on your hands. No one is innocent in life.

Thanks for stating the obvious. I have never once thought that I’m a saint or that veganism is perfect. You’re the one who’s fixated on this idea of perfection. You keep on attempting to discredit veganism for not being able to completely eliminate suffering and destruction caused by humans.

Yeah, that documentary wasn't biased at all...

So what if it’s biased? The recent undercover footage of numerous UK facilities mistreating farm animals speaks for itself.


Yes, because protecting crops from predators is exactly like exploiting farm animals, never mind that more crops are required to feed farm animals than to feed humans directly. By the way, the first site promotes plant-based eating lol.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/future-of-food/

You were the one that said "obligate carnivores under the care of humans", that was just the assumption I had to make.

I specified “obligate carnivores under the care of humans” because you were wondering what pets and zoo animals could eat in a hypothetical scenario where the meat industry no longer exists.
Nov 27, 2017 11:00 AM

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Sep 2017
2999
Well i'll just answer with pets so I wont sound like a hypocrite.
"When you made this thread, I cried and screamed"


-Swagernator 2017
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