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Oct 20, 2017 10:25 AM
#51
This anime is the best Glory anime, is cute, is nice and not use misogynist, the problem is your Mind bro. |
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Oct 20, 2017 10:49 AM
#52
Johnny-Jay said: Kittens-kun said: There is no creepiness. Like literally none. So... A depressed teenager gives up on life and enslaved herself, she's bought by a very old unhuman being with an animal's skull for a head, who washes the girl and intents to make her his wife on the first day they meet, and you don't find ANYTHING creepy in all of this? The dude's apparently nice and the anime is light-hearted for now but it's still a fucked up situation. No, I don't. The bath scene was comedy. You weren't meant to take it seriously. And the series isn't even about the romance. He literally tells her she can choose her own path in life anyway. I seriously cannot see any angle to this where getting triggered is justified. |
Oct 20, 2017 10:58 AM
#53
Well she was literally a slave. However, the show also revolves around female empowerment in subtle ways. |
Three things cannot be long hidden.. ...the s u n, the m oo n, and the tr u th. |
Oct 20, 2017 12:01 PM
#54
Kittens-kun said: No, I don't. The bath scene was comedy. You weren't meant to take it seriously. And the series isn't even about the romance. He literally tells her she can choose her own path in life anyway. I seriously cannot see any angle to this where getting triggered is justified. Oh come on, "triggered" is a bullshit word people use every time someone expresses a different opinion... Why wouldn't you take comedy seriously? Don't get me wrong, I strongly believe we can and should laugh at everything, but that doesn't mean there's nothing more to a gag than a laugh. In this case, the bath scene is an example of Elias' unawareness of human social conventions, but it also reinforces the domination of Elias on Chise since he washes here like you would wash your new pet. Once again, I'm not saying this is the right interpretation and the anime is misogynist, I actually really liked the first episodes. That's still an unusual relationship and one can question its dynamic. |
Oct 20, 2017 12:19 PM
#55
If you're really bothered for such simple stuff, in the end you will end up watching nothing. That being said, i have no freaking idea of how this relates to humanism Even so, yesterday i was asking myself if i should continue watching episode 2 of Inuyashiki because it was making me feel bad (Kinda the opposite of entertainment), comparing that one of the things that got me into the show was that episode one had a thematic ending with a good and happy message. But this? The only way i see stuff like this being bad is if it makes the characters or plot worse (Hello Asuna from Fairy Dance), but other than that: Come on, dude, just relax. |
Oct 20, 2017 12:31 PM
#56
I finally finded a person who has the same reaction that me. I find this anime a bit disturbing. I don't like the fact than a person can buy another person especially if the bought person don't really care about that. And it's the base of the relation between the main characters and not a relation Master/Apprentice as I have read above. And the "comedies moments" make this situation even more disturbing Otherwise I consider the series passable but not very exciting at the moment and this disturbing situation doesn't help. |
Oct 20, 2017 12:33 PM
#57
Sorvarin said: +1. I mean all the thing about Elias making Chise his bride and the honeymoon stuff makes me feel all like:ataraxial said: The reason I was bothered by Mahoutsukai was because it seemed to promote something that should be terrible: a girl gives up her freedom, becomes a pet/belonging, and is saved because of this. What kind of a message does this send? I STILL HATE THAT PART YES hated the honeymoon jokes in the second episode but still hope the show gets better than that. It gets me confused. |
Oct 20, 2017 4:46 PM
#58
In my personnal case, I saw lot of anime with an imperfect and much worse world, but in this case it's the treatment of the story that is disturbing not the context. There is lot of stories with a darker world that aren't disturbing. This show try to be good at heart but starts with a terrible not intentional unethical and disturbing relation between main characters... This is the problem exposed in this thread I think. Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post. |
NexuOct 21, 2017 11:37 AM
Oct 20, 2017 4:51 PM
#59
@ataraxial I'm really not sure, if the misogyny is a joke and little bit trolling or not? ^^" Serious question: Would you feel the same or different, if she were a boy? Why the hell are you speaking of misogyny? XD Let alone, she is not the only woman there and they are portrayed different. I mean, it's true, you COULD write a whole different story with a different tone and a very questionable guy, with the given plot, but the author thankfully didn't. XD Well, he is in other ways questionable, but eeh... now, speaking of a KINK feels very weird and kinda "disgusting" to me, because there isn't anything sexual besides a few harmless jokes. Or let's say, I really don't like others to believe that I watch and like something very much for a kink ... especially one, I don't even have? ^^" You make things very sexual. They never were. ^^" After I've watched the second episode I decided to drop. I can't stand Elias and I think he was just wishing a slave since he decided about Chise's future. He does not allow Chise make her own choice and the fact that Elias said that she is his bride it's disgusting to me, it seems he is a pedophile especially when he said about their honeymoon, that's so disgusting and it sounds like she were his sexual slavery or he wants that Chise will be his sexual slavery. Huh, wait? She is 16, therefore she is almost an adult and she decided on her own to sell herself, which was a dumb decision btw. Tho she didn't have a future. The age of consent would be 14, but that doesn't really matter, because he has never did anything sexual to her. o.o He is weird, but that's the point about his character. Simon made fun of him and Angelica calls him out on his weird actions. And some were just jokes. ^^" I think, he even said in the first episode that she could decide later to become his bride or not. And ofc you are not THAT free to do whatever you like as an apprentice and "hopefully bride". XD That's the point in being an apprentice or a student: you learn from someone, who is better and more skilled than you. Sometimes, you should listen to others lol. She hated her life, because of her skills and he is going to help her. That doesn't sound bad. She just does her duties etc... But I don't remember anything near to "domination", like stated in other posts, in the 4 volumes I have read!? O.o So, I could understand the opinion of you, both of you, if you only hear a sloppy plot summary, but the whole thread sounds like "explain an anime plot badly" -> "Magical high school girl sells herself to old mage". XD Ofc, I accept your point of view, but tbh, I can't understand it / look behind it and its reasons. ^^" |
removed-userOct 20, 2017 5:13 PM
Oct 20, 2017 6:04 PM
#60
Maneki-Mew said: I'm really not sure, if the misogyny is a joke and little bit trolling or not? ^^" Serious question: Would you feel the same or different, if she were a boy? Why the hell are you speaking of misogyny? XD Let alone, she is not the only woman there and they are portrayed different. If the genders were swapped and everything else were the same, then I would have the same concerns, yes. I used the word misogyny because she is a girl; it would be misandry if the character were a boy. |
Oct 20, 2017 6:13 PM
#61
ataraxial said: Maneki-Mew said: I'm really not sure, if the misogyny is a joke and little bit trolling or not? ^^" Serious question: Would you feel the same or different, if she were a boy? Why the hell are you speaking of misogyny? XD Let alone, she is not the only woman there and they are portrayed different. If the genders were swapped and everything else were the same, then I would have the same concerns, yes. I used the word misogyny because she is a girl; it would be misandry if the character were a boy. Well okay then. I personally would guess you to watch at least the first 2, 3 episodes. There is a female mage in the next episode, who calls Elias out for his weird actions. You'll meet the other people, working in his household and you'll see beautifully animated and very creative magic. Also, she tries to do magic as well. There is a great dragon in the end and some cute dialogue scenes between Elias and Chise, when they talk about her a little bit. I just think it's kinda unfair for this work to drop it and "punish" with a very low score, because of a "false understanding" of the approach to slavery etc... most creatures there weren't even human. ^^" Ofc, do as you want, but you asked for other opinions. XD |
Oct 20, 2017 7:02 PM
#62
Johnny-Jay said: All the more reason to question the moral of this story. Even though Chise was a victim from the beginning, with a shitty childhood and all, you're saying she's responsible for putting herself in a crappy situation, and Elias got her out of it. That's already a biased vision of it, that's because the anime portrays Elias as the good guy and only jokes about the creepiness of his actions. I'm not saying the anime is misogynist or anything but every creation, fictional or not, delivers a certain representation of the world, of what's ok or not. Everything is political. You guys are just intent on making this political, aren't you? I'll indulge. Mysogyny is discrimination of woman based on gender. I fail to see discrimination by gender in salvery, in fact it's mercilessly inclusive. Male slaves are used for manual labour and females for sexual pleasure. Slavery is wrong but isn't mysogyny, because women slaves aren't any more victims than men. That said women on average are less capable of self-defense so they are more susceptible to slavery than men (55% of slaves are girls and women). However I'm pretty sure the KEY here isn't the mysogyny, it's the way humans are treated as commodities (regardless of gender). You want slavery to disappear, not a 50/50 representation of genders, right? Your missing the point by talking about mysogny, it's the greed of slavery. Now for the human rights concern. How strongly to you feel against Elias buying Chise? Oh poor abused child who had no choice but to be coerced into such horrible things.... Please, you guys are just showing hollow bravery. You do realise mail-order brides are legal right? Go! Protest your government! Wait you aren't? Oh yes, be concerned by the subliminal messaging in an anime, rather than actual immoral things that are legal. Why protest and help to actually changing legislation over ACTUAL things that are happening when you can feel good by inconsistently applying you values to virtue signal the morals of an anime? Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post. |
NexuOct 21, 2017 11:38 AM
I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
Oct 20, 2017 7:33 PM
#63
BurningSpirit said: You guys are just intent on making this political, aren't you? I'll indulge. Mysogyny is discrimination of woman based on gender. I fail to see discrimination by gender in salvery, in fact it's mercilessly inclusive. Male slaves are used for manual labour and females for sexual pleasure. Slavery is wrong but isn't mysogyny, because women slaves aren't any more victims than men. That said women on average are less capable of self-defense so they are more susceptible to slavery than men (55% of slaves are girls and women). However I'm pretty sure the KEY here isn't the mysogyny, it's the way humans are treated as commodities (regardless of gender). You want slavery to disappear, not a 50/50 representation of genders, right? Your missing the point by talking about mysogny, it's the greed of slavery. Now for the human rights concern. How strongly to you feel against Elias buying Chise? Oh poor abused child who had no choice but to be coerced into such horrible things.... Please, you guys are just showing hollow bravery. You do realise mail-order brides are legal right? Go! Protest your government! Wait you aren't? Oh yes, be concerned by the subliminal messaging in an anime, rather than actual immoral things that are legal. Why protest and help to actually changing legislation over ACTUAL things that are happening when you can feel good by inconsistently applying you values to virtue signal the morals of an anime? You make great points, but overall your argument is misdirected. If you like anime, then you want to talk about it. If political issues come up in anime, why ignore them? The people defending this thread aren't doing it as a form of protest, they're trying to have a discussion on an interesting and relevant topic. If they also want to speak out concerning legislation or otherwise take political action, they can do that too. There is no conflict here. As for the issue itself, you're only looking at the story without considering its implications. The fundamental problem is that the story rewards Chise for selling herself. It's not about how dark and edgy things get, it's about how the message seems to be that a girl in trouble will be saved if she just gives up her freedom and surrenders herself to a man. |
Oct 20, 2017 8:23 PM
#64
BurningSpirit said: I don't mind the depiction of slavery in service of a writer's ideas, but you're going back and fourth in your posts saying in one that you shouldn't be concerned and in another you are actively concerned. It's the focus of the concern that you dislike?Johnny-Jay said: All the more reason to question the moral of this story. Even though Chise was a victim from the beginning, with a shitty childhood and all, you're saying she's responsible for putting herself in a crappy situation, and Elias got her out of it. That's already a biased vision of it, that's because the anime portrays Elias as the good guy and only jokes about the creepiness of his actions. I'm not saying the anime is misogynist or anything but every creation, fictional or not, delivers a certain representation of the world, of what's ok or not. Everything is political. You guys are just intent on making this political, aren't you? I'll indulge. Mysogyny is discrimination of woman based on gender. I fail to see discrimination by gender in salvery, in fact it's mercilessly inclusive. Male slaves are used for manual labour and females for sexual pleasure. Slavery is wrong but isn't mysogyny, because women slaves aren't any more victims than men. That said women on average are less capable of self-defense so they are more susceptible to slavery than men (55% of slaves are girls and women). However I'm pretty sure the KEY here isn't the mysogyny, it's the way humans are treated as commodities (regardless of gender). You want slavery to disappear, not a 50/50 representation of genders, right? Your missing the point by talking about mysogny, it's the greed of slavery. Now for the human rights concern. How strongly to you feel against Elias buying Chise? Oh poor abused child who had no choice but to be coerced into such horrible things.... Please, you guys are just showing hollow bravery. You do realise mail-order brides are legal right? Go! Protest your government! Wait you aren't? Oh yes, be concerned by the subliminal messaging in an anime, rather than actual immoral things that are legal. Why protest and help to actually changing legislation over ACTUAL things that are happening when you can feel good by inconsistently applying you values to virtue signal the morals of an anime? Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post. |
NexuOct 21, 2017 11:39 AM
Oct 20, 2017 8:35 PM
#65
I only defended OP's or anybody's right to interpretation and didn't say anything actually bad about the anime, yet you think you can just insult us and still be the good guys here... BurningSpirit said: Mysogyny is discrimination of woman based on gender. I fail to see discrimination by gender in salvery, in fact it's mercilessly inclusive. Male slaves are used for manual labour and females for sexual pleasure. Slavery is wrong but isn't mysogyny, because women slaves aren't any more victims than men. Personnaly, what "bothers" (it's a big word) me the most is this dominator/dominated relationship, Elias saving Chise by literaly owning her. The marriage also carries a strong symbolic, it's a way to have control over a woman in a lot of countries. But Elias is shown as a savior and his flaws, his most ambiguous actions are meant to be funny. So... I think that's an interesting subject for reflection. Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post. |
NexuOct 21, 2017 11:40 AM
Oct 20, 2017 8:39 PM
#66
Well I'll give my two cents here: Honestly, people can think what they want. Criticisms are there for a reason. It isn't feminazi level shit at least I guess, so there's something (not saying that you are). However I don't really agree with your statement, because the series even stated based on its initial episode. I don't think it would be misogyny or anything. But honestly, if you don't like how its going then its better to drop it, but at the same time watch more to make a much proper judgement about it. |
Oct 20, 2017 8:51 PM
#67
I have all 7 current volumes of this manga in my country that are available...... this series is amazing and their relationship is sweet. Don't look too deeply into it boo boo. |
Oct 20, 2017 8:58 PM
#68
anyway ya i was skeptical when i first read the manga to this series with the whole slavery thing (as slavery is wrong regardless of race gender etc). however it is later explainable Elias has absolutely no idea what is considered wrong or right. also many of his actions come back to bite him in the ass later in the manga. and he does gain a moral compass of sorts as the series goes on. this is kind of a retelling of beauty and the beast. Mod Edit: Removed baiting. |
NexuOct 21, 2017 11:42 AM
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
Oct 20, 2017 9:35 PM
#69
hazarddex said: anyway ya i was skeptical when i first read the manga to this series with the whole slavery thing (as slavery is wrong regardless of race gender etc). however it is later explainable Elias has absolutely no idea what is considered wrong or right. also many of his actions come back to bite him in the ass later in the manga. and he does gain a moral compass of sorts as the series goes on. this is kind of a retelling of beauty and the beast. Such a level-headed response is heresy in the world of otaku. Seriously though, a girl getting forcibly stripped against her will in the first episode is fair grounds to cause some people concern about the quality of a show in a medium wherein that kind of thing is very often portrayed in a neutral or positive light, even if jokingly. It's just not everyone's cup of tea. It's not even a question of whether it effects people's behaviors in real life; it's just boring and stupid to *most* people. And I really want to emphasize *most* because this shit is only normal in anime, though the users of this particular forum may be too used to it(and maybe too young?) to notice it. In regards to the show: As others have said, the character is reprimanded for his gross behavior in the next episode. I'm not convinced at all that the scene in question was intended merely as an analyses of Elias's lacking social skills; it clearly contained an element of kinky fan service like much modern anime, and I initially had concerns similar to yours but the show has more self awareness and their relationship doesn't seem as bad now as the first episode makes it seem, and this show has too many positive qualities to be missed based on this one flaw, I think. If you're still concerned, OP, then I recommend you check out the 3-episode OVA as it is excellent, self-contained, and contains no fan service by my memory. Mod Edit: Modified quote of edited post. |
NexuOct 21, 2017 11:43 AM
Oct 20, 2017 10:40 PM
#70
ataraxial said: The fundamental problem is that the story rewards Chise for selling herself. It's not about how dark and edgy things get, it's about how the message seems to be that a girl in trouble will be saved if she just gives up her freedom and surrenders herself to a man. Dude I literally don't know anyone who thinks like that. If there are, they are few and far between enough such that I can't be bothered compromise on my enjoyment of an anime to worry about them. ataraxial said: If you like anime, then you want to talk about it. If political issues come up in anime, why ignore them? The people defending this thread aren't doing it as a form of protest, they're trying to have a discussion on an interesting and relevant topic. If they also want to speak out concerning legislation or otherwise take political action, they can do that too. There is no conflict here. There is no conflict, I couldn't care less if you protest both. But just compare the difference in the level of attention when it comes real issues and fictional ones in our media. ataraxial said: As for the issue itself, you're only looking at the story without considering its implications. I understand its implications. I'm saying the consequences of it is negligible compared to actual real world issues. People who would watch Mahoutsukai no Yome and somehow think it's fine to do something like buy a woman and treat her like a commodity already have issues beforehand. It's exactly the same issue as violence in video games or movies, those lunatics already have mental issues. These people are so rare, it's not a good compromise to go around restricting what can and cannot be portrayed in video games/films/anime. Yorozu said: I don't mind the depiction of slavery in service of a writer's ideas, but you're going back and fourth in your posts saying in one that you shouldn't be concerned and in another you are actively concerned. It's the focus of the concern that you dislike? Where is my inconsistency in concern? I think misogyny is wrong, slavery is wrong and mail-order brides are wrong. I'm pointing out that there is no misogyny in slavery, in fact it's very indiscriminate. And instead of virtue signalling over an anime, go out and actually talk about issues such as the legality of mail-order brides. In the first half of my post, I was talking about why misogyny is not an issue. The OP talks about "human rights", which is clearly referring to slavery. I'm going along with the OP's line of logic because Chise's situation initially is slavery. The point here was to disprove that misogyny is involved in slavery. The second half was talking about the situation that Chise actually found herself in, which in real life would be closer to mail-order brides. I do not recall that I've said I'm not concerned about the well-being of these females who are mail-order brides. If you read my post correctly, I'm pointing out why you guys seem to care so much about anime depicting something that is actually legal rather than protesting it in real life. Overall the entire point of my post was to say Mahoutsukai no Yome doesn't have misogyny. It has slavery, but Chise's situation turned out more similar to a mail-order bride which IS LEGAL. I think it's all wrong, but I'm not talking about my morals here, I'm talking about people in this thread being far too outraged over a small issue of subtle messages and ignoring the reality that women who work in porn, prostitution, stripper clubs etc. are all forced into these situation by unfortunate circumstances. Johnny-Jay said: Personnaly, what "bothers" (it's a big word) me the most is this dominator/dominated relationship, Elias saving Chise by literaly owning her. The marriage also carries a strong symbolic, it's a way to have control over a woman in a lot of countries. But Elias is shown as a savior and his flaws, his most ambiguous actions are meant to be funny. So... I think that's an interesting subject for reflection. I agree with you here that it is strongly symbolic, what I'm saying that the level of concern here is way overblown. There are ACTUAL similar LEGAL actions which you can do in real life which you should be concerned over. Anyone who could in their head justify actually doing these things because of Mahoutsukai no Yome have mental issues and are also a small small minority. Sure it's an interesting topic to reflect upon, aren't we all reflecting upon it now? My thoughts are that what's in our entertainment is not a cause for concern. Johnny-Jay said: I like talking about anime and trying to make people see them in a different light. What about you? Is fighting us retarded SJW on MyAnimeList the best way to protect what you believe in? Good for you. I'm just saying what you are doing won't change a thing for the poor women who are manipulated in real life. In fact it diverts attention away from the real issues, making it worse for those suffering from it. When people keep being obsessed about the tiny tiny things like "There's misogyny in Mahoutsukai no Yome" or "Violence in Video Games causes real violence", people ignore real issues and authorities are never pressured into doing anything right. Instead they go for more censorship in media. I didn't call you an SJW, in fact I didn't think you were one. I didn't know it takes someone to be an SJW to understand that discrimination against women and slavery is wrong. My purpose on MAL is to have discussion. Of any sort really. It's not conducive anywhere else, especially not Twitter or YouTube comments. Best way to protect in what I believe in? Well, I don't think I'll protect anything or change anything by posting my opinions online. I post my honest feelings online because there isn't much opportunity to talk about such stuff in real life often, so it feels good and helps arrange my thoughts. In fact I hope people don't notice my online presence at all, I hate attention. I see real issues, dig deeper into them and discuss them to feed my own personal knowledge. I don't think arguing with anyone will necessarily change their mind, but the beauty of the written language on the internet means everyone can see what we discuss and make their own conclusions. |
BurningSpiritOct 20, 2017 10:48 PM
I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
Oct 20, 2017 11:38 PM
#71
BurningSpirit said: ataraxial said: As for the issue itself, you're only looking at the story without considering its implications. I understand its implications. I'm saying the consequences of it is negligible compared to actual real world issues. People who would watch Mahoutsukai no Yome and somehow think it's fine to do something like buy a woman and treat her like a commodity already have issues beforehand. It's exactly the same issue as violence in video games or movies, those lunatics already have mental issues. These people are so rare, it's not a good compromise to go around restricting what can and cannot be portrayed in video games/films/anime. First, no one's talking about censorship here. Second, I was talking about implications of the story in the abstract sense, as in what the story represents and what message it seems to send. I wasn't talking about real-world implications. Finally, if you would like to consider real-world implications, the concern would obviously not be the adult audience. It would be children, and in this specific case, girls, who COULD potentially be affected by the clumsy way that the issue of slavery has been represented. |
Oct 20, 2017 11:52 PM
#72
ataraxial said: First, no one's talking about censorship here. You said and I quote ataraxial said: A very clear expression that you felt the author should change his works based on your opinions. You are urging creators to self-censor. No?But the story should probably give some sort of a hint that slavery and misogyny are bad. ataraxial said: Second, I was talking about implications of the story in the abstract sense, as in what the story represents and what message it seems to send. I wasn't talking about real-world implications. Exactly, you are talking about subliminal messaging and the negligible difference it makes. I know that. And I'm telling you that you should be concerned over things that actually happen and actually matter. ataraxial said: Finally, if you would like to consider real-world implications, the concern would obviously not be the adult audience. It would be children, and in this specific case, girls, who COULD potentially be affected by the clumsy way that the issue of slavery has been represented. I'm telling you mate, children don't think that far. No one as a kid will have deep philosophical thoughts about the plots depicted in stories. I'm more concerned that princess disney cartoons giving girls an unrealistic expectation for themselves. You know things that are actually obviously visible and can be seen throughout the disney film, like a character's looks? |
I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
Oct 21, 2017 12:03 AM
#73
BurningSpirit said: ataraxial said: First, no one's talking about censorship here. You said and I quote ataraxial said: A very clear expression that you felt the author should change his works based on your opinions. You are urging creators to self-censor. No?But the story should probably give some sort of a hint that slavery and misogyny are bad. ataraxial said: Second, I was talking about implications of the story in the abstract sense, as in what the story represents and what message it seems to send. I wasn't talking about real-world implications. Exactly, you are talking about subliminal messaging and the negligible difference it makes. I know that. And I'm telling you that you should be concerned over things that actually happen and actually matter. ataraxial said: Finally, if you would like to consider real-world implications, the concern would obviously not be the adult audience. It would be children, and in this specific case, girls, who COULD potentially be affected by the clumsy way that the issue of slavery has been represented. I'm telling you mate, children don't think that far. No one as a kid will have deep philosophical thoughts about the plots depicted in stories. I'm more concerned that princess disney cartoons giving girls an unrealistic expectation for themselves. You know things that are actually obviously visible and can be seen throughout the disney film, like a character's looks? No. I'm stating a criticism of the work, the same as any other possible criticism. Criticism is not the same as asking for censorship. No. I wasn't talking about subliminal messaging, at least not until you decided to bring up real-world implications. I was only talking about the story itself and what it represents. Yes? "Children don't think that far" is precisely the issue though? They aren't able to consider things deeply and just accept whatever is shown as being right. I do agree that Disney is much more problematic. But then again, I'm only talking about this at all because you misinterpreted my usage of "implication" as real-world implications and I thought I might as well humor you on the subject. |
Oct 21, 2017 12:14 AM
#74
ataraxial said: No. I'm stating a criticism of the work, the same as any other possible criticism. Criticism is not the same as asking for censorship. No. I wasn't talking about subliminal messaging, at least not until you decided to bring up real-world implications. I was only talking about the story itself and what it represents. Yes? "Children don't think that far" is precisely the issue though? They aren't able to consider things deeply and just accept whatever is shown as being right. I do agree that Disney is much more problematic. But then again, I'm only talking about this at all because you misinterpreted my usage of "implication" as real-world implications and I thought I might as well humor you on the subject. So many replies in and you still don't get it... I never thought you meant "implications" as in real life implications. I'm calling you out for NOT talking about real life implications. Because there isn't a point in talking about anything that doesn't have real life implications. With regards to the children thing. Yeah children accept anything, but only if they are able to perceive it. They are able to perceive the beauty of characters displayed on disney films because it is CLEARLY visible and they don't have to think. Children will not be able perceive or understand a thing about the symbolism in the relationship between Elias and Chise in Mahoutsukai no Yome (that's assuming they are even able to be engaged enough to keep their attention on the show to even get to that point). Put it this way, crack a complex sex joke and the innocent people wouldn't get it, but show them porn and they would know exactly what it is. Innocent people don't become perverts listening to sex jokes they don't understand and little kids won't become misogynists watching Mahoutsukai no Yome. |
I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
Oct 21, 2017 12:29 AM
#75
BurningSpirit said: ataraxial said: No. I'm stating a criticism of the work, the same as any other possible criticism. Criticism is not the same as asking for censorship. No. I wasn't talking about subliminal messaging, at least not until you decided to bring up real-world implications. I was only talking about the story itself and what it represents. Yes? "Children don't think that far" is precisely the issue though? They aren't able to consider things deeply and just accept whatever is shown as being right. I do agree that Disney is much more problematic. But then again, I'm only talking about this at all because you misinterpreted my usage of "implication" as real-world implications and I thought I might as well humor you on the subject. So many replies in and you still don't get it... I never thought you meant "implications" as in real life implications. I'm calling you out for NOT talking about real life implications. Because there isn't a point in talking about anything that doesn't have real life implications. With regards to the children thing. Yeah children accept anything, but only if they are able to perceive it. They are able to perceive the beauty of characters displayed on screen because it is CLEARLY visible and they don't have to think. Children will not be able perceive or understand a thing about the symbolism in the relationship between Elias and Chise in Mahoutsukai no Yome (that's assuming they are even able to be engaged enough to keep their attention on the show to even get to that point). Put it this way, crack a complex sex joke and the innocent people wouldn't get it, but show them porn and they would know exactly what it is. Innocent people don't become perverts listening to sex jokes they don't understand and little kids won't become misogynists watching Mahoutsukai no Yome. Can we just not use the word "implication" any more LOL. At this point I feel like it's lost all meaning. I mean literally everything has real life implications, right? I've already responded to why I don't think you calling me out makes any sense. We're here to talk about anime. The politics are incidental. If we were expressly trying to solve the problems of the world, then yeah, I would agree that we would get better results doing something else. But we're not, so we won't. I said children, but what I meant was non-adults, teenagers included. Either way, seeing a girl become subservient to a man isn't exactly the most complicated thing to understand; unless we're talking really young kids here, I don't think it's beyond most children to at least have some sense of what's happening. |
Oct 21, 2017 1:17 AM
#76
ataraxial said: I've already responded to why I don't think you calling me out makes any sense. We're here to talk about anime. The politics are incidental. If we were expressly trying to solve the problems of the world, then yeah, I would agree that we would get better results doing something else. But we're not, so we won't. I believe I was on this thread just telling people to enjoy themselves. Then people quoted me and told me I should be able to justify why I'm enjoy this without thinking about real life issues like misogyny and slavery, other than just not being in the frame on mind to think about politics. So I did. I switched gears and explained why I think Mahoutsukai no Yome is a not a good example of the evils of misogyny and slavery at all. Because there's no point being in the frame of mind halfway between entertainment and real life issues. having buzzwords like misogyny and humans rights in their head preventing them from enjoying themselves, then criticise the anime using real life issues with no real life context. Either enjoy yourself and ignore politics or actually substantiate your political arguments, don't pull people out of the entertainment mindset then backtrack complain they are being "too real". If there is nothing to be solved and the problem stems from elsewhere, then there isn't a problem with Mahoutsukai no Yome at all, is there? You've just conceded your entire argument. ataraxial said: I said children, but what I meant was non-adults, teenagers included. Either way, seeing a girl become subservient to a man isn't exactly the most complicated thing to understand; unless we're talking really young kids here, I don't think it's beyond most children to at least have some sense of what's happening. Kids understand nothing about films except what is blatantly displayed to them. They won't even consider or notice the subservient behaviour at all, assuming they'd even watch something like this. As for teenagers, I'm a teenager. I don't get my values and morals from the entertainment I consume and never did. However I concede this is a problem, because poor parenting and a poor education system is the causes teenagers to be easily influenced and lose their basic sense of decency. It's just that I don't think the solution is to criticise media, it's a proper family structure and a proper upbringing. |
BurningSpiritOct 21, 2017 1:22 AM
I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
Oct 21, 2017 1:40 AM
#77
BurningSpirit said: ataraxial said: I've already responded to why I don't think you calling me out makes any sense. We're here to talk about anime. The politics are incidental. If we were expressly trying to solve the problems of the world, then yeah, I would agree that we would get better results doing something else. But we're not, so we won't. I believe I was on this thread just telling people to enjoy themselves. Then people quoted me and told me I should be able to justify why I'm enjoy this without thinking about real life issues like misogyny and slavery, other than just not being in the frame on mind to think about politics. So I did. I switched gears and explained why I think Mahoutsukai no Yome is a not a good example of the evils of misogyny and slavery at all. Because there's no point being in the frame of mind halfway between entertainment and real life issues. having buzzwords like misogyny and humans rights in their head preventing them from enjoying themselves, then criticise the anime using real life issues with no real life context. Either enjoy yourself and ignore politics or actually substantiate your political arguments, don't pull people out of the entertainment mindset then backtrack complain they are being "too real". If there is nothing to be solved and the problem stems from elsewhere, then there isn't a problem with Mahoutsukai no Yome at all, is there? You've just conceded your entire argument. I actually get what you're trying to say, but it's so convoluted that I doubt many people will LOL. I'm going to try to keep things simple. You might be able to turn off your brain to watch anime, but that doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. I didn't start watching Mahoutsukai no Yome in a specifically political mindset, I started it after watching some other anime which I was enjoying just fine. So what happened here is that your original comment doesn't apply to everyone. Similarly, the person who replied to you also made an assumption that didn't necessarily apply to you. That's all it was. I understand that you want Mahoutsukai to be criticism-proof. But other people are going to see problems even if you can't or won't because of your mindset. You can't dismiss their concerns just because it suits you and the way you organize your thoughts. |
Oct 21, 2017 1:48 AM
#78
ataraxial said: BurningSpirit said: ataraxial said: I've already responded to why I don't think you calling me out makes any sense. We're here to talk about anime. The politics are incidental. If we were expressly trying to solve the problems of the world, then yeah, I would agree that we would get better results doing something else. But we're not, so we won't. I believe I was on this thread just telling people to enjoy themselves. Then people quoted me and told me I should be able to justify why I'm enjoy this without thinking about real life issues like misogyny and slavery, other than just not being in the frame on mind to think about politics. So I did. I switched gears and explained why I think Mahoutsukai no Yome is a not a good example of the evils of misogyny and slavery at all. Because there's no point being in the frame of mind halfway between entertainment and real life issues. having buzzwords like misogyny and humans rights in their head preventing them from enjoying themselves, then criticise the anime using real life issues with no real life context. Either enjoy yourself and ignore politics or actually substantiate your political arguments, don't pull people out of the entertainment mindset then backtrack complain they are being "too real". If there is nothing to be solved and the problem stems from elsewhere, then there isn't a problem with Mahoutsukai no Yome at all, is there? You've just conceded your entire argument. I actually get what you're trying to say, but it's so convoluted that I doubt many people will LOL. I'm going to try to keep things simple. You might be able to turn off your brain to watch anime, but that doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. I didn't start watching Mahoutsukai no Yome in a specifically political mindset, I started it after watching some other anime which I was enjoying just fine. So what happened here is that your original comment doesn't apply to everyone. Similarly, the person who replied to you also made an assumption that didn't necessarily apply to you. That's all it was. I understand that you want Mahoutsukai to be criticism-proof. But other people are going to see problems even if you can't or won't because of your mindset. You can't dismiss their concerns just because it suits you and the way you organize your thoughts. You are absolutely right, any anime even my favorite is not "criticism proof" and if a problem reach several persons (like me or you), questions can be raised (rightly or wrongly). And I think the anime has a problem even if the show can be eventually good after that. |
Oct 21, 2017 3:23 AM
#79
ataraxial said: I actually get what you're trying to say, but it's so convoluted that I doubt many people will LOL. I'm going to try to keep things simple. You might be able to turn off your brain to watch anime, but that doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. I didn't start watching Mahoutsukai no Yome in a specifically political mindset, I started it after watching some other anime which I was enjoying just fine. So what happened here is that your original comment doesn't apply to everyone. Similarly, the person who replied to you also made an assumption that didn't necessarily apply to you. That's all it was. I understand that you want Mahoutsukai to be criticism-proof. But other people are going to see problems even if you can't or won't because of your mindset. You can't dismiss their concerns just because it suits you and the way you organize your thoughts. Agree with the first 3 paragraphs, though I do have to add that reality is complex. If reality was so easily explained with 1 sentence, then all problems would be solved by now. I'm not particularly concerned whether or not there is criticism for Mahoutsukai no Yome, I just wanted actual legitimate criticism rather than just misguided virtue signalling. |
I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
Oct 21, 2017 7:48 AM
#80
BurningSpirit said: I'm only concerned with what the Anime is communicating. If it's going to consider themes of slavery and human rights I expect it will distill some level of clarity or feeling about them through its governing ideas. If "the reality that women who work in porn, prostitution, stripper clubs etc. are all forced into these situation by unfortunate circumstances." is something that the Anime wants to articulate, that's cool, maybe it can get me engaged in the kind of debate you're interested in. Yorozu said: I don't mind the depiction of slavery in service of a writer's ideas, but you're going back and fourth in your posts saying in one that you shouldn't be concerned and in another you are actively concerned. It's the focus of the concern that you dislike? Where is my inconsistency in concern? I think misogyny is wrong, slavery is wrong and mail-order brides are wrong. I'm pointing out that there is no misogyny in slavery, in fact it's very indiscriminate. And instead of virtue signalling over an anime, go out and actually talk about issues such as the legality of mail-order brides. In the first half of my post, I was talking about why misogyny is not an issue. The OP talks about "human rights", which is clearly referring to slavery. I'm going along with the OP's line of logic because Chise's situation initially is slavery. The point here was to disprove that misogyny is involved in slavery. The second half was talking about the situation that Chise actually found herself in, which in real life would be closer to mail-order brides. I do not recall that I've said I'm not concerned about the well-being of these females who are mail-order brides. If you read my post correctly, I'm pointing out why you guys seem to care so much about anime depicting something that is actually legal rather than protesting it in real life. Overall the entire point of my post was to say Mahoutsukai no Yome doesn't have misogyny. It has slavery, but Chise's situation turned out more similar to a mail-order bride which IS LEGAL. I think it's all wrong, but I'm not talking about my morals here, I'm talking about people in this thread being far too outraged over a small issue of subtle messages and ignoring the reality that women who work in porn, prostitution, stripper clubs etc. are all forced into these situation by unfortunate circumstances. I'm not thinking about your morals either. The line I deleted in my first post that I think you interpreted to mean so was a response to the thread of indifference towards OP's concerns of perceived misogyny that are straightforwardly moral. I was looking for a post that actually refuted him because I can't(I haven't seen the show). Your posts have afforded some clarity so I'm glad you've contributed more. |
OchimushaOct 21, 2017 9:26 AM
Oct 21, 2017 9:43 AM
#81
Fiction, more often than not, is a reflection of our own world. Through fiction, we are also able to dissect issues that our own world faces. Think of classic novels, "1984", "to kill a mockingbird," etc. They're filled with abuse, racism, torture, misogyny, and other evil things. Chise faces abuse and misogyny (and also racism/speciasm - she's a sleigh beggy and that's part of the reason she was being sold?). These issues are a part of our everyday world (modern day slavery, racism, misogyny, abuse), so why can't they be written into fiction? It's a problem if the series is glorifying it or doing it just for the sake of shock. But I don't get that sense at all. I've only watched 2 episodes, but I think it's heading into the direction of the main character, where we see the story through her eyes, someone who has gone through a life of darkness. Looks like she'll slowly gain confidence, strength, and ultimately find peace and happiness in life. It's an important factor that we're seeing and being told the story through her words and eyes. |
Oct 21, 2017 10:31 AM
#82
Correct me if I'm wrong but after Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentice? Like he openly stated that a "master-slave" or whatever relationship wasn't what he wanted? And yea I know that he called her 2 or 3 times puppy (yeaaa that was kinda embarrassing) but I think it acted as a comedy relief. And in the second episode he did get called for the way he behaved in the previous episode so yea, I don't really agree,,, |
Oct 21, 2017 10:37 AM
#83
Dang0z said: Correct me if I'm wrong but after Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentice? Like he openly stated that a "master-slave" or whatever relationship wasn't what he wanted? And yea I know that he called her 2 or 3 times puppy (yeaaa that was kinda embarrassing) but I think it acted as a comedy relief. And in the second episode he did get called for the way he behaved in the previous episode so yea, I don't really agree,,, "Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentic" -> You have right but few minutes later, Ellias imposes to Chise to become this bride. Therefore your explanations fails. |
Oct 21, 2017 10:52 AM
#84
Brean2010 said: Dang0z said: Correct me if I'm wrong but after Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentice? Like he openly stated that a "master-slave" or whatever relationship wasn't what he wanted? And yea I know that he called her 2 or 3 times puppy (yeaaa that was kinda embarrassing) but I think it acted as a comedy relief. And in the second episode he did get called for the way he behaved in the previous episode so yea, I don't really agree,,, "Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentic" -> You have right but few minutes later, Ellias imposes to Chise to become this bride. Therefore your explanations fails. Pretty sure him saying "And I've been hoping to make you my wife" doesn't sound that imposing and absolute. |
Oct 21, 2017 11:12 AM
#85
Thread cleaned, please remember to remain civil or the thread will be locked. As well, please watch double posts. |
NexuOct 21, 2017 11:51 AM
|
Oct 21, 2017 11:52 AM
#86
Dang0z said: Brean2010 said: Dang0z said: Correct me if I'm wrong but after Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentice? Like he openly stated that a "master-slave" or whatever relationship wasn't what he wanted? And yea I know that he called her 2 or 3 times puppy (yeaaa that was kinda embarrassing) but I think it acted as a comedy relief. And in the second episode he did get called for the way he behaved in the previous episode so yea, I don't really agree,,, "Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentic" -> You have right but few minutes later, Ellias imposes to Chise to become this bride. Therefore your explanations fails. Pretty sure him saying "And I've been hoping to make you my wife" doesn't sound that imposing and absolute. It's not clear, the translation depends of the country, I just rewatched with french (my language) offcial subs and after with english offcial subs and in french he say "I will make you my bride" and in english he said "I hope to make you my bride" Therefore, the only way to know the true meaning is to understand the japanese. |
Oct 21, 2017 12:00 PM
#88
Nexu said: Thread cleaned, please remember to remain civil or the thread will be locked. As well, please watch double posts. Apparently satire comments are harassment now. Thats 2017 for ya I guess, exactly why most people here didn't like the thread. Inb4 episode 3 was bad because: "Elias was hiding in HER shadow?? Pervert magician trying to get upskirt view of Chise! Disgusting! Misogyny! Sexist! |
ThunderCRDCOct 21, 2017 12:13 PM
Oct 21, 2017 12:08 PM
#89
I take it one of the things that turned you off is probably Elias calling Chise his puppy? Apart from that and kind of boasting the fact that he took an apprentice in episode 2,I felt that kind of stuff is pretty much absent (I've read like 6 volumes of the manga) The thing is, Elias is not human, and doesn't understand human emotions and what is considered right or wrong, and sometimes has trouble dealing with them, but the way I see it is that their relationship is never really about power dynamics or anything, Elias doesn;t give orders unless he thinks its the best for Chise's well being. Also he doesn't treat her badly even though that's what she expected, besides calling her a puppy he also told her during their first meeting that they would work on her feeling fortunate Also I saw someone mention Elias making her a sex slave, that's just.....no |
LauraBirdieOct 21, 2017 12:13 PM
Oct 21, 2017 12:09 PM
#90
Op asks a question everyone explodes acting like SJW threating the op and telling him to leave quality |
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus |
Oct 21, 2017 12:14 PM
#91
RCRDC said: Nexu said: Thread cleaned, please remember to remain civil or the thread will be locked. As well, please watch double posts. Apparently satire comments are harassment now. Thats 2017 for ya I guess, exactly why most people here didn't like the thread. Inb4 episode 3 was bad because: "Elias was hiding in HER shadow?? Pervert magician trying to get upskirt view of chise! Disgusting! Misogyny! Sexist! I think you haven't understood the topic of this thread and I think your post has perfectly resumed this part of your sentence "why most people here didn't like the thread.". I'm a little bored about people that have zero distance about a subject. |
Oct 21, 2017 12:17 PM
#92
Brean2010 said: RCRDC said: Nexu said: Thread cleaned, please remember to remain civil or the thread will be locked. As well, please watch double posts. Apparently satire comments are harassment now. Thats 2017 for ya I guess, exactly why most people here didn't like the thread. Inb4 episode 3 was bad because: "Elias was hiding in HER shadow?? Pervert magician trying to get upskirt view of chise! Disgusting! Misogyny! Sexist! I think you haven't understood the topic of this thread and I think your post has perfectly resumed this part of your sentence "why most people here didn't like the thread.". I'm a little bored about people that have zero distance about a subject. You should've read the discussion when comments were not censored yet. Can't help but cringe when every comment mentioning Skeleton Jazz Wizard gets deleted even though it's true. |
Oct 21, 2017 12:18 PM
#93
LauraBirdie said: I take it one of the things that turned you off is probably Elias calling Chise his puppy? Apart from that and kind of boasting the fact that he took an apprentice in episode 2,I felt that kind of stuff is pretty much absent (I've read like 6 volumes of the manga) The thing is, Elias is not human, and doesn't understand human emotions and what is considered right or wrong, and sometimes has trouble dealing with them, but the way I see it is that their relationship is never really about power dynamics or anything, Elias doesn;t give orders unless he thinks its the best for Chise's well being. Also he doesn't treat her badly even though that's what she expected, besides calling her a puppy he also told her during their first meeting that they would work on her feeling fortunate Also I saw someone mention Elias making her a sex slave, that's just.....no You have been bought, you can receive order therefore your are a type of slave no matter the reason but this thing has nothing to do with the quality of the show. |
Oct 21, 2017 12:22 PM
#94
RCRDC said: Brean2010 said: RCRDC said: Nexu said: Thread cleaned, please remember to remain civil or the thread will be locked. As well, please watch double posts. Apparently satire comments are harassment now. Thats 2017 for ya I guess, exactly why most people here didn't like the thread. Inb4 episode 3 was bad because: "Elias was hiding in HER shadow?? Pervert magician trying to get upskirt view of chise! Disgusting! Misogyny! Sexist! I think you haven't understood the topic of this thread and I think your post has perfectly resumed this part of your sentence "why most people here didn't like the thread.". I'm a little bored about people that have zero distance about a subject. You should've read the discussion when comments were not censored yet. Can't help but cringe when every comment mentioning Skeleton Jazz Wizard gets deleted even though it's true. I follow the subject from the start thanks to me. I read lot of bad thing and a lot of good things from both sides but I stay on my position. And if you read my last post , I agree with you for "'this thing has nothing to do with the quality of the show". But I think it's also an important subject. I have been disturbed by this when I saw the two first episodes. |
Oct 21, 2017 12:23 PM
#95
It seems my sarcastic comment was deleted, so I will give my full thoughts. The whole misogyny and human rights concerns in a fiction work because "It is for the sake of the children" is nothing but a fallacy. What is a fallacy? You purposely blur real life topics with fantasy works and try to get the higher ground by presenting yourself as the guardian of children or *insert your desired group you wish to protect*. Which is an insult for the target you wish to protect, as your fallacy suggest that children can't discern what is real and what it isn't (remember the whole debate about violent video-games) and, therefore, works that explore some topics should be criticised and, if possible, censored. This isn't an anme for small children, look at the rating classification of this show. I also think children see much worse watching Game of Thrones and I doubt someone is forbidden them to see. For parents who are concerned (or just control freaks), there is a Rating system, which indicated Mahoutsukai no Yome as safe for teenagers over 13 years old. If a 13-year old can't discern this is just a fantasy work, you can say the child is retarded. I'm not even going to enter how this kind of thinking damages society in the long run. Critical thinking and individualism will soon be replaced by mob thinking dictating what you can or can't do. |
Oct 21, 2017 12:30 PM
#96
Brean2010 said: Dang0z said: Correct me if I'm wrong but after Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentice? Like he openly stated that a "master-slave" or whatever relationship wasn't what he wanted? And yea I know that he called her 2 or 3 times puppy (yeaaa that was kinda embarrassing) but I think it acted as a comedy relief. And in the second episode he did get called for the way he behaved in the previous episode so yea, I don't really agree,,, "Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentic" -> You have right but few minutes later, Ellias imposes to Chise to become this bride. Therefore your explanations fails. No, he doesn't. Did you all conveniently forget he said that she has a say in the matter? That it's also her choice? Also, as many people have pointed out, the series main focus isn't the romance in the first place. |
Oct 21, 2017 12:34 PM
#97
Brean2010 said: LauraBirdie said: I take it one of the things that turned you off is probably Elias calling Chise his puppy? Apart from that and kind of boasting the fact that he took an apprentice in episode 2,I felt that kind of stuff is pretty much absent (I've read like 6 volumes of the manga) The thing is, Elias is not human, and doesn't understand human emotions and what is considered right or wrong, and sometimes has trouble dealing with them, but the way I see it is that their relationship is never really about power dynamics or anything, Elias doesn;t give orders unless he thinks its the best for Chise's well being. Also he doesn't treat her badly even though that's what she expected, besides calling her a puppy he also told her during their first meeting that they would work on her feeling fortunate Also I saw someone mention Elias making her a sex slave, that's just.....no You have been bought, you can receive order therefore your are a type of slave no matter the reason but this thing has nothing to do with the quality of the show. It was a slave auction but I don't remember Elias ever phrasing it that way, the words he used are apprentice, puppy, future bride. His reason for "obtaining" Chise will become clear in a couple of episodes |
Oct 21, 2017 12:38 PM
#98
Kittens-kun said: Brean2010 said: Dang0z said: Correct me if I'm wrong but after Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentice? Like he openly stated that a "master-slave" or whatever relationship wasn't what he wanted? And yea I know that he called her 2 or 3 times puppy (yeaaa that was kinda embarrassing) but I think it acted as a comedy relief. And in the second episode he did get called for the way he behaved in the previous episode so yea, I don't really agree,,, "Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentic" -> You have right but few minutes later, Ellias imposes to Chise to become this bride. Therefore your explanations fails. No, he doesn't. Did you all conveniently forget he said that she has a say in the matter? That it's also her choice? Also, as many people have pointed out, the series main focus isn't the romance in the first place. If you have read my last response to Dang0z, it's absolutely not clear, depending of the translation. After if you understand the original text, I can eventually trust you. And for now, when a people say you can do what you want but this person follow you in any place, it's not really the thing called "Freedom" but it's my point of view. And I know that romance is not the main topic of this show, I have read lot of review of the manga (and I generaly don't care about romance) but it's a part of the backgound. |
Oct 21, 2017 12:40 PM
#99
Kittens-kun said: Brean2010 said: Dang0z said: Correct me if I'm wrong but after Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentice? Like he openly stated that a "master-slave" or whatever relationship wasn't what he wanted? And yea I know that he called her 2 or 3 times puppy (yeaaa that was kinda embarrassing) but I think it acted as a comedy relief. And in the second episode he did get called for the way he behaved in the previous episode so yea, I don't really agree,,, "Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentic" -> You have right but few minutes later, Ellias imposes to Chise to become this bride. Therefore your explanations fails. No, he doesn't. Did you all conveniently forget he said that she has a say in the matter? That it's also her choice? Also, as many people have pointed out, the series main focus isn't the romance in the first place. Like arguing with flat-earthers. |
Oct 21, 2017 12:40 PM
#100
Brean2010 said: Kittens-kun said: Brean2010 said: Dang0z said: Correct me if I'm wrong but after Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentice? Like he openly stated that a "master-slave" or whatever relationship wasn't what he wanted? And yea I know that he called her 2 or 3 times puppy (yeaaa that was kinda embarrassing) but I think it acted as a comedy relief. And in the second episode he did get called for the way he behaved in the previous episode so yea, I don't really agree,,, "Chise was sold to Ellias and was with him, he told her to lift her head, look straight, broke her chains in her neck and told her that she's not his slave but his apprentic" -> You have right but few minutes later, Ellias imposes to Chise to become this bride. Therefore your explanations fails. No, he doesn't. Did you all conveniently forget he said that she has a say in the matter? That it's also her choice? Also, as many people have pointed out, the series main focus isn't the romance in the first place. If you have read my last response to Dang0z, it's absolutely not clear, depending of the translation. After if you understand the original text, I can eventually trust you. And for now, when a people say you can do what you want but this person follow you in any place, it's not really the thing called "Freedom" but it's my point of view. And I know that romance is not the main topic of this show, I have read lot of review of the manga (and I generaly don't care about romance) but it's a part of the backgound. No, it is clear. He literally says it. You're ignoring the facts for the sake of your nonsense argument. |
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Poll: » Mahoutsukai no Yome Episode 17 Discussion ( 1 2 )Stark700 - Feb 3, 2018 |
81 |
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Poll: » Mahoutsukai no Yome Episode 3 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 )UrbanJahts - Jul 26, 2017 |
247 |
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Poll: » Mahoutsukai no Yome Episode 5 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 )Stark700 - Nov 4, 2017 |
189 |
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Jan 12, 9:00 AM |