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Poll: Do you want Feminism in your Anime?


Sep 17, 2017 11:12 PM

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So feminism needs to exist because of one random dude on an anime website?
 
Sep 17, 2017 11:20 PM

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spuukiebuugi said:
@Nyu
That was one thread
And moreover, everyone in anime is sexualized. It's not really surprising.
tbh some of the ways women are depicted in ecchi is shallow as fuck, saying that doesn't make me less of an egalitarian. there are shows where guys are plenty objectified too, see sports anime and male idol shows. so recently the "sexualization" in anime is on more equal footing.
but regardless, it's goddamn fiction. people are going to be objectified. There aren't gonna be any SJW rules in your anime any time soon. Japan isn't a super politically correct country.

^^ this
but this is Nyu were talking about the second a black or hispanic or middle eastern character shows up in an anime or TV show or any media in general he has to cry "forced Diversity." and create a poll that is built to get what he wants.

also everyone in anime is sexualized and in fiction in general as the main romances or character will always be bound to the authors ideal.



EVERYONE

and I've not noticed any of what hes talking about...

unless he means the ecchi haters who have been hear for far longer then he has and most of them are men doing the ecchi hating...and there reasons for bashing are not even based on objectification of the female body but other things. just saying.

Modified by hazarddex, Sep 17, 2017 11:23 PM
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types.
Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others."

“Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.”
 
Sep 17, 2017 11:24 PM

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PeripheralVision said:
SuperRed said:


To clarify something, Moe is a paternalistic protective feeling the viewer holds towards a character, not how ideal of a character he/she is.

I am don't feel moe towards Clannad girls but I feel moe on Rin from Usagi Drop or Kanna from Dragon Maid.


I wouldn't say it is purely paternalistic, but similar by working on the nature of one wishing to protect, whether it be a puppy, a child, or a cute female.

In any case, I was hypothesizing the idea that content creators in Japan tend to one to invoke this feeling on some level to makes characters, male and female, more attractive, despite it relying on some natural reaction, versus a reasoning on why I should care for such characters. Essentially, creators' intent are to invoke such feelings, which functions as a sort of "ideal".

Weird thing is, something we would consider a flaw can still be reasonably endearing, I.E. Myopic vision, clumsiness, bashfulness, etc, as they invoke the desire to protect.

Of course, moe is poorly define, but going off its posited relation to Kawaii culture, it does not seem exclusive to a completely innocent show like Non Non Biyori, but with anime like Konosuba's female cast (Megumin and later Darkness), or Full Metal Panic's Tessa, or the atrocious example of Masamune's Revenge's Aki, which while completely ineffective, I still recognize what they wanted to do by having Aki make cute faces and display vulnerability, such as her eating habits. To sell her as an ideal female character, or rather, attractive.

As for the sexual nature of waifus, Darkness in Konosuba broke her facade during her bath scene, showing a rather bashful nature when confront with the lascivious situation put forth in front of her.

I do not think attempts at moe are 100% effective. Aki sure as hell was not. I am also not implying that moe is purely romantic, or that any well made character, female or male, are subjected to moe trends.


Edit: Huh, now I think about it, "attractive" does seem more fitting than ideal, considering my previous statement on endearing flaws.

Overall, I would not say that moe equals objectification. For example, all Miyazaki's heroines are very much moe. It does not get in the way of being the center and the moving force of their story.

Being a mentally strong and active person is attractive on its own. When paired with insufficient ability it's moe, when paired with enough ability it's admiration.
Disclaimer: just because you aren't strong enough on your own, doesn't mean you would not prevail. High School Girls is a fine example.
 
Sep 17, 2017 11:28 PM

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Kittens-kun said:


So feminism needs to exist because of one random dude on an anime website?

And nuclear carpet-bombing is an appropriate reaction to people in muslim countries stoning a woman for wearing pants.
"It's not justice if you don't go overboard." Myouri Unzen
 
Sep 17, 2017 11:31 PM

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@flannan You obviously don't know Clebardcuck very well. He's made multiple personal attacks and insults against me in the past. I doubt hes in any way trying to have a discussion or debate. He's already written me off as some woman-hater, because I don't worship pussy or give women a free pass on their bad behavior. He's also obviously not used to having is ideas or beliefs challenged, because he shut down and had nothing reasonable to say, aside from probably more lies and insults.

@spuukiebuugi


I'm done I'm sorry... I just can't sometimes with you. I actually don't mind debating with you for the most part, because you're not completely insane, even though you have some irrational hatred toward MRA's. In a way I guess it is rational though since they are going against your own self interests as a women and trying to gain more rights and freedoms for men. I'm not going to pretend to ever be some objective rationalist though. I'm just a self-interested man and currently my interests align with more rights for men, because I'm a man. I don't think there is a point in being part of a group or movement, because at the end of the day its all for self-interest and the goals of the group can change to align against yours.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
 
Sep 17, 2017 11:45 PM

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flannan said:
PeripheralVision said:


I wouldn't say it is purely paternalistic, but similar by working on the nature of one wishing to protect, whether it be a puppy, a child, or a cute female.

In any case, I was hypothesizing the idea that content creators in Japan tend to one to invoke this feeling on some level to makes characters, male and female, more attractive, despite it relying on some natural reaction, versus a reasoning on why I should care for such characters. Essentially, creators' intent are to invoke such feelings, which functions as a sort of "ideal".

Weird thing is, something we would consider a flaw can still be reasonably endearing, I.E. Myopic vision, clumsiness, bashfulness, etc, as they invoke the desire to protect.

Of course, moe is poorly define, but going off its posited relation to Kawaii culture, it does not seem exclusive to a completely innocent show like Non Non Biyori, but with anime like Konosuba's female cast (Megumin and later Darkness), or Full Metal Panic's Tessa, or the atrocious example of Masamune's Revenge's Aki, which while completely ineffective, I still recognize what they wanted to do by having Aki make cute faces and display vulnerability, such as her eating habits. To sell her as an ideal female character, or rather, attractive.

As for the sexual nature of waifus, Darkness in Konosuba broke her facade during her bath scene, showing a rather bashful nature when confront with the lascivious situation put forth in front of her.

I do not think attempts at moe are 100% effective. Aki sure as hell was not. I am also not implying that moe is purely romantic, or that any well made character, female or male, are subjected to moe trends.


Edit: Huh, now I think about it, "attractive" does seem more fitting than ideal, considering my previous statement on endearing flaws.

Overall, I would not say that moe equals objectification. For example, all Miyazaki's heroines are very much moe. It does not get in the way of being the center and the moving force of their story.

Being a mentally strong and active person is attractive on its own. When paired with insufficient ability it's moe, when paired with enough ability it's admiration.
Disclaimer: just because you aren't strong enough on your own, doesn't mean you would not prevail. High School Girls is a fine example.


Ah, I see. I was discussing the more general idea of attraction in relation to cuteness. Some may want more or even less, but I am discussing what exactly is being done in order to aim for the demographic susceptible to moe. Or something, it is 3 AM and my eyes are dried up.

Moe isn't a bad thing to me, but I think reliance on it can be abysmal, especially in a character heavy genre like romance. Some harems tend to rely on making love interests attractive without effort to characterize them as independent beings, but attaching traits and stereotypes like big breasts meganekko who is clumsy and defrosting tsundere.

That being said, moe isn't necessarily indicative of a weak or feckless character, but of a vulnerability in some manner. In such situations, I do not mind.

It just seems the trend is to attract superficial traits to create attractive idols instead of actual characters. In all honesty, it depends on the anime's purpose for me to consider such a method "bad".
 
Sep 18, 2017 12:14 AM
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I wish stupid shit like this would be posted in the CE board instead. I do not want to ignore this board too.

In any case I don't care as long as the anime/manga is entertaining. The reason I watch anime or read manga is for entertainment. If political views do not make it less entertaining, I really don't care about nonsense like this.
 
Sep 18, 2017 12:15 AM

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lequack said:
I wish stupid shit like this would be posted in the CE board instead. I do not want to ignore this board too.

In any case I don't care as long as the anime/manga is entertaining. The reason I watch anime or read manga is for entertainment. If political views do not make it less entertaining, I really don't care about nonsense like this.


Feminism infesting anime does make the anime less entertaining. No one wants to hear how "smart and funny" women are.
 
Sep 18, 2017 12:21 AM
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Nyu said:
lequack said:
I wish stupid shit like this would be posted in the CE board instead. I do not want to ignore this board too.

In any case I don't care as long as the anime/manga is entertaining. The reason I watch anime or read manga is for entertainment. If political views do not make it less entertaining, I really don't care about nonsense like this.


Feminism infesting animes does make it less entertaining.


Then I don't want it. As someone who moved to USA very recently I have never understood what the big deal with feminism is and honestly I don't care about it. All I can say is that in India (the country I was born and raised in) feminism is needed.
 
Sep 18, 2017 12:23 AM

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lequack said:
Nyu said:


Feminism infesting animes does make it less entertaining.


Then I don't want it. As someone who moved to USA very recently I have never understood what the big deal with feminism is and honestly I don't care about it. All I can say is that in India (the country I was born and raised in) feminism is needed.


India needs Equality, not Feminism. Giving women more rights than men (which it will eventually lead to) isn't needed.
 
Sep 18, 2017 12:27 AM
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Nyu said:
lequack said:


Then I don't want it. As someone who moved to USA very recently I have never understood what the big deal with feminism is and honestly I don't care about it. All I can say is that in India (the country I was born and raised in) feminism is needed.


India needs Equality, not Feminism. Giving women more rights than men (which it will eventually lead to) isn't needed.


Equality is what I consider feminism and the dictionary says the same thing.

In any case this is an anime discussion forum not a politics thread so lets stop the discussion. I have already shared my viewpoint about this issue with regards to anime in my previous post.
 
Sep 18, 2017 12:55 AM

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lequack said:
Nyu said:


India needs Equality, not Feminism. Giving women more rights than men (which it will eventually lead to) isn't needed.


Equality is what I consider feminism and the dictionary says the same thing.

In any case this is an anime discussion forum not a politics thread so lets stop the discussion. I have already shared my viewpoint about this issue with regards to anime in my previous post.


The dictionary doesn't represent modern Feminism, and if you had actually studies Feminism, you'd know they have only ever fought for their rights, while others didn't have any rights. Feminism is only for the self-interest of women, thus not equality.
 
Sep 18, 2017 1:10 AM

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Nyu said:
lequack said:


Then I don't want it. As someone who moved to USA very recently I have never understood what the big deal with feminism is and honestly I don't care about it. All I can say is that in India (the country I was born and raised in) feminism is needed.


India needs Equality, not Feminism. Giving women more rights than men (which it will eventually lead to) isn't needed.
Feminism is the belief that women should be treated as men's equals, so you are pretty much contradicting yourself and also outing yourself as a feminist by definition. Not that it's a surprise, it's obvious that you didn't understand what you were talking about from the start. You speak of propaganda, but it's clear you are buying into some propaganda yourself.

I just looked it up, the people who you are talking about are called misandrists, not feminists. If a women believes they should be/are above men, they literally cannot be a feminist, that belief is misandry. And if you are saying misandry is wrong, I'm with you, but I have a feeling that you would rather ignore any nuance in this discussion.
Modified by GoldNautilus, Sep 18, 2017 1:21 AM
 
Sep 18, 2017 1:19 AM

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Nyu said:
lequack said:
I wish stupid shit like this would be posted in the CE board instead. I do not want to ignore this board too.

In any case I don't care as long as the anime/manga is entertaining. The reason I watch anime or read manga is for entertainment. If political views do not make it less entertaining, I really don't care about nonsense like this.


Feminism infesting anime does make the anime less entertaining. No one wants to hear how "smart and funny" women are.

I would like you to stop speaking for me. I do want smart female anime characters. Funny female anime characters are fine too.
 
Sep 18, 2017 1:19 AM

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GoldNautilus said:
Nyu said:


India needs Equality, not Feminism. Giving women more rights than men (which it will eventually lead to) isn't needed.
Feminism is the belief that women should be treated as men's equals, so you are pretty much contradicting yourself and also outing yourself as a feminist by definition. Not that it's a surprise, it's obvious that you didn't understand what you were talking about from the start. You speak of propaganda, but it's clear you are buying into some propaganda yourself.


So "Feminism is the belief that women should be treated as men's equals", well I guess that explains why in the late 1800s/ early 1900s (Europe) they campaigned to get women the right to vote, while millions of men didn't have the vote. How are they trying to be men's equals, when mens rights are beneath theirs.

How about actually studying Feminism, instead of believing an incorrect definition.
 
Sep 18, 2017 1:20 AM

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flannan said:
Nyu said:


Feminism infesting anime does make the anime less entertaining. No one wants to hear how "smart and funny" women are.

I would like you to stop speaking for me. I do want smart female anime characters. Funny female anime characters are fine too.


I thought you were a technocrat, make up your mind. Or do you switch between Feminist and technocrat when it suits your argument.
 
Sep 18, 2017 1:26 AM

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Nyu said:
GoldNautilus said:
Feminism is the belief that women should be treated as men's equals, so you are pretty much contradicting yourself and also outing yourself as a feminist by definition. Not that it's a surprise, it's obvious that you didn't understand what you were talking about from the start. You speak of propaganda, but it's clear you are buying into some propaganda yourself.


So "Feminism is the belief that women should be treated as men's equals", well I guess that explains why in the late 1800s/ early 1900s (Europe) they campaigned to get women the right to vote, while millions of men didn't have the vote. How are they trying to be men's equals, when mens rights are beneath theirs.

How about actually studying Feminism, instead of believing an incorrect definition.

See above post, i edited it to talk about the difference between feminism and misandry. They are not and can not be the same thing, even though you pretend they are to push your agenda.
 
Sep 18, 2017 1:32 AM

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GoldNautilus said:
Nyu said:


So "Feminism is the belief that women should be treated as men's equals", well I guess that explains why in the late 1800s/ early 1900s (Europe) they campaigned to get women the right to vote, while millions of men didn't have the vote. How are they trying to be men's equals, when mens rights are beneath theirs.

How about actually studying Feminism, instead of believing an incorrect definition.

See above post, i edited it to talk about the difference between feminism and misandry. They are not and can not be the same thing, even though you pretend they are to push your agenda.


Third Wave Feminists are misandrists, but they successfully play themselves of as Feminists, and they are mainstream feminist Organizations, Governments (Sweden) and the UN.

They represent Feminism now.
 
Sep 18, 2017 1:35 AM

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Why would you want to add more cancer to anime?
 
Sep 18, 2017 1:53 AM

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flannan said:
Oh, now you're talking anime!
Lina Inverse. Dirty Pair. The duo from Ruin Explorers.
Every magical girl show protagonist.
Strike Witches. Protagonists of Ange Vierge. Protagonists of Coppelion. Flip Flappers.
Shakugan no Shana. Demon King from Maoyuu. Hitsugi no Chaika. Isuca. Junketsu no Maria. Tokyo ESP. Nijuu Mensou no Musume. Toaru Kagaku no Railgun.
And that's not the end.

There is quite a lot of female protagonists doing some kind of action or adventure, you know. Maybe not as many as men in male-oriented media, but a sizable number.

And in many stories of action or adventure that center around male protagonist, there are competent women around him too. Even if they're mostly love interests who only get one arc worth of plot, these days it is acceptable for a love interest to be a political activist or a demon-slaying swordswoman.


Never heard of any of those shows, but that could be exactly why, they are not that well-known. And the magical girl genre is a niche for itself.
Sure there are competent women to be found at times, but how many of them are actually relevant to the plot, interesting overall and can be compared to the main male characters?
From all the anime i've seen up to date, it's a very small amount. Many are run-of-the-mill replacable.
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:03 AM

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Kittens-kun said:
So feminism needs to exist because of one random dude on an anime website?
No, so that people like you and OP will have something to talk about
Nico- said:
@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite
Salman bin Abdul Aziz said:
@Comic_Sans I hate to insult you on forums but you are just a troll so just go kill yourself already bitch
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:05 AM

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Comic_Sans said:
Kittens-kun said:
So feminism needs to exist because of one random dude on an anime website?
No, so that people like you and OP will have something to talk about


Exactly, I would have nothing to discuss without Feminism.
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:07 AM

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@Nyu Well, at least you're being honest about it
Nico- said:
@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite
Salman bin Abdul Aziz said:
@Comic_Sans I hate to insult you on forums but you are just a troll so just go kill yourself already bitch
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:08 AM

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@Lonewolf zzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzzzz. You wouldn't understand a simple post even if it came with an explicative manual anyway. Keep venting your frustration on me, I don't care about you enough to give you any serious answer.


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_LapisLazuli said:
It's Asia, not the Middle East (I know Middle East is part of the Asia). We respect women a lot and women respect men, as individuals not because of gender.


The things you wrote has nothing to do with feminism, they are about morality.

Those individuals stalkers are assholes, not "All men are assholes".

Feminism won't solve any of those problems. It's like saying that "human rights" will solve "murder" crimes. "Equal Income" will solve "theft".

Isn't the Rape rate is lower in Japan than the US?


Japan and malaysia are middle east countries? (There are actucally more countries with those women-only cars.) It's funny because Asia and the middle east are actually the only places with those cars, as far as I'm aware. So, it's not the middle east, but maybe not that far?

oh, so feminism is only about things that bother you, while real subjects "have nothing with feminism"? Show me the men-only cars because they get gropped in regular ones, please.

Never said every man was an asshole, and I seriously wonder if you people can't read, or if you're just so fucking insecure and obsessed by gender you take everything as an insult toward your penis.

I generally assume feminism=equal rights for men and women. I know, I know, that's not what 4chan taught you about feminism. Now in that case, women being able to walk in a normal car without getting raped by Indian or japanese boys, or me being able to sit in every car of the fucking train would be a nice step toward equality. Tell me again how it has nothing with feminism?

Dunno about the US, but their cops are shooting blacks on sight, I wouldn't be surprised if they raped women too (^:
Modified by Deathko, Sep 18, 2017 2:19 AM
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:09 AM

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Comic_Sans said:
@Nyu Well, at least you admit it yourself


I consider honesty a key trait to being Honourable.
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:18 AM

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Nyu said:
lequack said:
I wish stupid shit like this would be posted in the CE board instead. I do not want to ignore this board too.

In any case I don't care as long as the anime/manga is entertaining. The reason I watch anime or read manga is for entertainment. If political views do not make it less entertaining, I really don't care about nonsense like this.


Feminism infesting anime does make the anime less entertaining. No one wants to hear how "smart and funny" women are.


You have a problem with a female character being smart in media? are you really that shallow? Go back to the 1600 please.
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types.
Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others."

“Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.”
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:20 AM

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hazerddex said:
Nyu said:


Feminism infesting anime does make the anime less entertaining. No one wants to hear how "smart and funny" women are.


You have a problem with a female character being smart in media? are you really that shallow? Go back to the 1600 please.


It was a reference to South Park, how Cartman always goes on about "how smart and funny women are".
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:24 AM

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Nyu said:
hazerddex said:


You have a problem with a female character being smart in media? are you really that shallow? Go back to the 1600 please.


It was a reference to South Park, how Cartman always goes on about "how smart and funny women are".
please note not all of us watch south park so realize what you sound like your saying before putting it down. Just some awareness.
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types.
Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others."

“Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.”
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:27 AM

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hazerddex said:
Nyu said:


It was a reference to South Park, how Cartman always goes on about "how smart and funny women are".
please note not all of us watch south park so realize what you sound like your saying before putting it down. Just some awareness.


Well, I don't reference things often. Also, how come you don't watch South Park.
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:30 AM

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I don't understand why you hate feminism when you have a military anime girl as avatar.
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:33 AM

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Nyu said:
hazerddex said:
please note not all of us watch south park so realize what you sound like your saying before putting it down. Just some awareness.


Well, I don't reference things often. Also, how come you don't watch South Park.
because I am a busy person and it does not fit my intress mostly. I don't hate or like it. Its just there are shows I'm more interested like touhou or anime or dc comics or warhammer 40k or starwars etc.

To put it simply here's a quote

"I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skillful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."

Can you tell me what this is from? I already know I'm just making a point
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types.
Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others."

“Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.”
 
Sep 18, 2017 2:46 AM

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@LoneWolf
Here comes Clebardcuck riding in on his white horse to save the asian m'ladies. Do you ever get tired of vilifying your own gender and pushing the women as victims narrative?
How is @Clebardman vilifying his own gender here?

The implication I got from his post was that Japanese men are more sexist overall than French men and that the weeaboo was ridiculous for trying to paint French men as the literal scum of Earth while simultaneously praising Japan as if it were some kind of magical feminist paradise. That is not the same thing as vilifying the whole male sex. If anything, I would argue that some ideological nutcases would label him a "cultural racist" because he criticized a different culture.
Also have you even fucking been to Asia? Or do you have any Asian ancestry? Do you realize how retarded it looks like when you're telling someone from Asia about his/her country and don't even live there and are not part of the culture?
"If you're not part of this or that culture, then you have no right to criticize it", hmmm, where have I heard this before?

Oh wait, it's the exact same argument multiculturalists tend to use when someone criticizes the highly misogynistic cultures of the Middle East or Islamic conservatism.
Do you think they teach men that it's okay to rape girls in Japan? Wtf kind of alternate reality do you live in? Last time I checked rape was illegal in every fucking country no matter what the culture is. Unless the victims happen to be male prison inmates. People know that stealing is wrong too, it doesn't mean they're not going to steal shit. Teaching men not to rape is such a redundant thing to do and only feeds into their own retard ideology and assumptions about men as a whole.
Maybe not rape, no, and I don't really believe in the concept of "teaching men not to rape" either. However, Japan does have big issues with sexual harassment, more so than the West, so it's definitely not all fine and dandy. Why do you think Japan has women-only passenger cars? They exist for the same reasons that women-only train cars exist in countries like Egypt and India, and I don't think I need to lay it out for you how women are treated there.

Also, rape isn't illegal in "every fucking country", Saudi Arabia being a primary example of this (it's treated as "adultery" and both parties tend to be punished).
Modified by Comic_Sans, Sep 18, 2017 3:07 AM
Nico- said:
@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite
Salman bin Abdul Aziz said:
@Comic_Sans I hate to insult you on forums but you are just a troll so just go kill yourself already bitch
 
Sep 18, 2017 3:01 AM

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@Comic_Sans Thanks for proving he just sucks at understanding posts (and what law is), I was starting to worry about my ability to express myself.

Yes, I'm just here to pour oil on the flaming Lonewolf (^:

But... Cultural racism? Damn, I've been taxed of cultural and/or social marxism before, but that's a first... Nihon sugoi desu, I swear =^_^=
Modified by Deathko, Sep 18, 2017 3:06 AM
 
Sep 18, 2017 3:04 AM

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Corvus8 said:
flannan said:
Oh, now you're talking anime!
Lina Inverse. Dirty Pair. The duo from Ruin Explorers.
Every magical girl show protagonist.
Strike Witches. Protagonists of Ange Vierge. Protagonists of Coppelion. Flip Flappers.
Shakugan no Shana. Demon King from Maoyuu. Hitsugi no Chaika. Isuca. Junketsu no Maria. Tokyo ESP. Nijuu Mensou no Musume. Toaru Kagaku no Railgun.
And that's not the end.

There is quite a lot of female protagonists doing some kind of action or adventure, you know. Maybe not as many as men in male-oriented media, but a sizable number.

And in many stories of action or adventure that center around male protagonist, there are competent women around him too. Even if they're mostly love interests who only get one arc worth of plot, these days it is acceptable for a love interest to be a political activist or a demon-slaying swordswoman.


Never heard of any of those shows, but that could be exactly why, they are not that well-known. And the magical girl genre is a niche for itself.
Sure there are competent women to be found at times, but how many of them are actually relevant to the plot, interesting overall and can be compared to the main male characters?
From all the anime i've seen up to date, it's a very small amount. Many are run-of-the-mill replacable.

Never heard of any of these shows? Not even about Slayers, the archetypical 90s fantasy comedy anime? Not even Shakugan no Shana, one of Four Tsundere Wonders?
What is this world coming to!
Kids these days, you really make me feel old. Only a few of these are supposed to be obscure (Ruin Explorers, Tokyo ESP, Ange Vierge, Nijuu Mensou no Musume).

There are a lot of this kind of shows, they are both new (Ange Vierge and Flip Flappers were last year) and old (Dirty Pair was out in 1985). This season we're getting Princess Principal, which will probably earn its place in this list.
These shows have different settings and genres (but most of them are some kind of action), and this was just a small sampling of shows with prominent female protagonists. Are you taking your anime recommendations from a Jojo fan?

Magical girl anime aren't a niche, they are a well-established genre that keeps making nice money to anime studios. To the point that there are special versions of magical girl shows that appeal to men, and even more magical girl shows that attempt to subvert the genre. (I'm sure these subversions are all written by anti-feminists like that Urobutcher guy)

Nyu said:
flannan said:

I would like you to stop speaking for me. I do want smart female anime characters. Funny female anime characters are fine too.


I thought you were a technocrat, make up your mind. Or do you switch between Feminist and technocrat when it suits your argument.

1) As a technocrat, I want all smart characters I can get.
2) Please do not confuse my political views with my personal desires.
Example: As a technocrat, I want humans free from menial labor. As a person, I want a maid robot to do my menial labor and service me sexually. As a transhumanist, I wonder if it would be ethical to make a robot my personal maid.
 
Sep 18, 2017 3:11 AM

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whenever i hear the word politics i just wanna puke...and feminist in anime is fine...
 
Sep 18, 2017 3:11 AM

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@Clebardman No worries fam! I thought you were being severely misinterpreted so I set out to correct the mistakes.

You implied that Japanese men might be a bit more sexist overall than French men, so yes, in some people's eyes that would make you a cultural racist since you compared different cultural attitudes towards gender.
Nico- said:
@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite
Salman bin Abdul Aziz said:
@Comic_Sans I hate to insult you on forums but you are just a troll so just go kill yourself already bitch
 
Sep 18, 2017 3:29 AM

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Corvus8 said:
zodd0 said:
You need to look at anime beyond Shounen. Obviously the most popular trash anime won't have feminism.
Find quality anime and you will find feminism.


I think i found most of the quality anime already, and it's a small amount.

*Looks at his list* Meh, there's a lot of good stuff here, you still have shows to w- FLCL 1 and KlK 2? You can stop watching anime rn (^:

Anyway, feminism is present in anime, strong female leads too, you're just not looking at the right place, or pretending not to see it to make a point. Try to watch Rose of Versaille.
 
Sep 18, 2017 3:45 AM

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That's a complicated question, I guess...

If feminism is about to get a main female protagonist, we got some very good examples like Balsa Yonsa from Seirei no Moribito, Ghibli movies female characters or Tsukasha Hojo female casting. And we got very bad examples like Erza Scarlet from Fairy Tail and most of female characters in shonen.

If feminism is about a female character beating the crap out of male villains, I don't know if a show like this exists but if It's just a mean, vindicative, dumb male bashing, It won't work at all. I mean, It's not a new I want to find a show about monstruous, obnoxious, beast protagonists beating loli-good-looking, Final Fantasy/RWBY-ish villlains. But even myself thinks It need to have a good world-building, developed characters, and at least a reasonable purpose for this kind of plot.

If feminism is about female character is treated like a man, then please, no "White Knight" tropes. If a female deserves to be punished, she deserves it. No "But It's a woman! I can't hit her! It's bad!". In fact, I believe It's a lack of respect for the female...

That's just my opinion...
 
Sep 18, 2017 5:28 AM

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flannan said:



_LapisLazuli said:
Feminism won't solve any of those problems. It's like saying that "human rights" will solve "murder" crimes. "Equal Income" will solve "theft".

Isn't the Rape rate is lower in Japan than the US?

1) Differences between the rich and the poor are actually a better predictor of crime (including theft) than overall wealth. Just look at USA - they're pretty wealthy overall, but they have plenty of crime.
2) We don't know if rape rate is lower in Japan, because we can assume rape is less frequently reported in Japan than in the USA. And it's not like every rape is reported in USA either. Because both countries need feminism.



What you're saying is right. Poor Countries with close wealth distribution have less crimes than Rich Countries with wide distribution (mostly).

I don't see how feminism would solve rape/sexual assault/stalking problem. Feminism will solve equal rights, but not these problems. (btw, in most developed countries, equal rights have already been solved, haven't they?)

These problems have something to do with people being an asshole, they have nothing to do with people not thinking of female as "equal" gender.

It's not I hate feminism or something but feminism without common sense is just .... weird to me, looks like an attention seeking to me.
 
Sep 18, 2017 5:29 AM

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If a political point is the core message that the author/creators had, then let them have at it. If not, don't bother forcing the narrative in.
"I'd take rampant lesbianism over nuclear armageddon or a supervolcano any day." ~nikiforova
 
Sep 18, 2017 5:31 AM
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You want feminism? Watch Prison School. Perfect example of feminazis running a school :D
 
Sep 18, 2017 5:44 AM

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_LapisLazuli said:
I don't see how feminism would solve rape/sexual assault/stalking problem. Feminism will solve equal rights, but not these problems. (btw, in most developed countries, equal rights have already been solved, haven't they?)

Feminism is teaching men not to rape, teaching men to respect women and teaching them that womens bodies belong to the women and not to men. Instead women are being taught not to get raped, through slut-shaming and victim-blaming.

_LapisLazuli said:
These problems have something to do with people being an asshole, they have nothing to do with people not thinking of female as "equal" gender.

What? Then why aren't women being "assholes" since 99% of rapists are men?
 
Sep 18, 2017 5:58 AM

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Balong said:
If feminism is about a female character beating the crap out of male villains, I don't know if a show like this exists

There sure exist plenty of those. For example, 80s Dirty Pair are usually found beating the crap out of male villains (they are not above beating genderless computers, but I can't remember any female villains).

Balong said:
If feminism is about female character is treated like a man, then please, no "White Knight" tropes. If a female deserves to be punished, she deserves it. No "But It's a woman! I can't hit her! It's bad!". In fact, I believe It's a lack of respect for the female...

Anime varies on the "treated like a man" part. But Kamijou Touma is well-known for punching female villains no less than male villains.

_LapisLazuli said:
flannan said:

1) Differences between the rich and the poor are actually a better predictor of crime (including theft) than overall wealth. Just look at USA - they're pretty wealthy overall, but they have plenty of crime.
2) We don't know if rape rate is lower in Japan, because we can assume rape is less frequently reported in Japan than in the USA. And it's not like every rape is reported in USA either. Because both countries need feminism.



What you're saying is right. Poor Countries with close wealth distribution have less crimes than Rich Countries with wide distribution (mostly).

I don't see how feminism would solve rape/sexual assault/stalking problem. Feminism will solve equal rights, but not these problems. (btw, in most developed countries, equal rights have already been solved, haven't they?)

These problems have something to do with people being an asshole, they have nothing to do with people not thinking of female as "equal" gender.

It's not I hate feminism or something but feminism without common sense is just .... weird to me, looks like an attention seeking to me.

I have my doubts about "common sense", but thinking things through is necessary to do anything right.

Feminism would not necessarily solve rape/sexual assault/stalking problem, but it would help with properly reporting these crimes, and allow us to know the actual magnitude of the problem. I expect that with rape more frequently reported and prosecuted, we might see a decrease in the incidence of rape, but that's not a guarantee.
 
Sep 18, 2017 6:07 AM

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Clebardman said:
@Lonewolf zzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzzzz. You wouldn't understand a simple post even if it came with an explicative manual anyway. Keep venting your frustration on me, I don't care about you enough to give you any serious answer.


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_LapisLazuli said:
It's Asia, not the Middle East (I know Middle East is part of the Asia). We respect women a lot and women respect men, as individuals not because of gender.


The things you wrote has nothing to do with feminism, they are about morality.

Those individuals stalkers are assholes, not "All men are assholes".

Feminism won't solve any of those problems. It's like saying that "human rights" will solve "murder" crimes. "Equal Income" will solve "theft".

Isn't the Rape rate is lower in Japan than the US?


Japan and malaysia are middle east countries? (There are actucally more countries with those women-only cars.) It's funny because Asia and the middle east are actually the only places with those cars, as far as I'm aware. So, it's not the middle east, but maybe not that far?

oh, so feminism is only about things that bother you, while real subjects "have nothing with feminism"? Show me the men-only cars because they get gropped in regular ones, please.

Never said every man was an asshole, and I seriously wonder if you people can't read, or if you're just so fucking insecure and obsessed by gender you take everything as an insult toward your penis.

I generally assume feminism=equal rights for men and women. I know, I know, that's not what 4chan taught you about feminism. Now in that case, women being able to walk in a normal car without getting raped by Indian or japanese boys, or me being able to sit in every car of the fucking train would be a nice step toward equality. Tell me again how it has nothing with feminism?

Dunno about the US, but their cops are shooting blacks on sight, I wouldn't be surprised if they raped women too (^:



From your response, it seems you didn't understand my point. Maybe it's because English is not my main language. I apologise.

Let me reword:

Feminism is a good thing but it has nothing to do with rape/sexual assault/stalking. People being an asshole can't be solved by just saying "Genders are equal" to their face. There are laws to deal with these assholes, and it's not about feminism, it's about knowing right and wrong.

Feminism would solve problems with equal rights, which has already been solved in most developed countries. (That's why I mentioned "Middle East", those area needs feminism, but here in Asia, women are not discriminated because of "gender")

I don't hate Feminism, but I find it weird (not feeling insulted, but more like a feeling of curiosity/confused) when westerners bring the word up while living in such a developed countries that have no problem with gender discrimination.
 
Sep 18, 2017 6:13 AM

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Balong said:
If feminism is about female character is treated like a man, then please, no "White Knight" tropes. If a female deserves to be punished, she deserves it. No "But It's a woman! I can't hit her! It's bad!". In fact, I believe It's a lack of respect for the female...


has you watch aho girl? really recomended BTW...
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on."
 
Sep 18, 2017 6:25 AM
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There's tons of feminism in anime, but it's done horribly. This is because anime always tries to fit into a male empowerment and self insert fantasy. He's the hero. It'd be blasphemous to have more than one character that doesn't look like a chump, especially a girl. To compensate, the girls are given power over the dude almost like a gag. Not romantically. I mean physically and socially.

Women being able to beat male MC into the air
Women being able to kick the shonen protag's ass even though they're basically a god
Women berating the man in any way possible even though they'd be completely fucked without him. Constantly calling him an idiot/loser/whatever even though most people wouldn't have a surviving friendship
Etc, etc, etc

This shit is just a symptom of garbage writing. The only remedy to this problem is to drop the narrative-fantasy bullshit and write a good story. This might sound counter intuitive, but I believe Asuna in SAO did this aspect pretty well (don't get me wrong though, almost the entirety of SAO is still terrible).
 
Sep 18, 2017 6:28 AM

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Taifood said:
There's tons of feminism in anime, but it's done horribly. This is because anime always tries to fit into a male empowerment and self insert fantasy. He's the hero. It'd be blasphemous to have more than one character that doesn't look like a chump, especially a girl. To compensate, the girls are given power over the dude almost like a gag. Not romantically. I mean physically and socially.

Women being able to beat male MC into the air
Women being able to kick the shonen protag's ass even though they're basically a god
Women berating the man in any way possible even though they'd be completely fucked without him. Constantly calling him an idiot/loser/whatever even though most people wouldn't have a surviving friendship
Etc, etc, etc

This shit is just a symptom of garbage writing. The only remedy to this problem is to drop the narrative-fantasy bullshit and write a good story. This might sound counter intuitive, but I believe Asuna in SAO did this aspect pretty well (don't get me wrong though, almost the entirety of SAO is still terrible).


pretty sure you will find them mostly in male targetted series so it was an male fetish rather than feminism it self... have you ever tried shoujo? it's definitely not something like that...
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on."
 
Sep 18, 2017 6:41 AM
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Kuma said:
pretty sure you will find them mostly in male targetted series so it was an male fetish rather than feminism it self... have you ever tried shoujo? it's definitely not something like that...
Well yeah not every single anime has this premise but the most popular ones sure do. Sure there are popular Shoujo but I don't think they're as popular as Shonen.

All I'm saying is that it's feminism done terribly, since it also has to adhere to a male audience. A female audience doesn't have to worry about this at all. Of course, poorly written Shoujos will have the opposite of this, making men obsolete. Equality is equality after all.
 
Sep 18, 2017 6:48 AM

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flannan said:
Never heard of any of these shows? Not even about Slayers, the archetypical 90s fantasy comedy anime? Not even Shakugan no Shana, one of Four Tsundere Wonders?
What is this world coming to!
Kids these days, you really make me feel old. Only a few of these are supposed to be obscure (Ruin Explorers, Tokyo ESP, Ange Vierge, Nijuu Mensou no Musume).

There are a lot of this kind of shows, they are both new (Ange Vierge and Flip Flappers were last year) and old (Dirty Pair was out in 1985). This season we're getting Princess Principal, which will probably earn its place in this list.
These shows have different settings and genres (but most of them are some kind of action), and this was just a small sampling of shows with prominent female protagonists. Are you taking your anime recommendations from a Jojo fan?

Magical girl anime aren't a niche, they are a well-established genre that keeps making nice money to anime studios. To the point that there are special versions of magical girl shows that appeal to men, and even more magical girl shows that attempt to subvert the genre. (I'm sure these subversions are all written by anti-feminists like that Urobutcher guy)


Nope, never heard of any of them, although i think i have Tokyo ESP in my dropped list.
I'm an anime watcher since ~2012, i try to watch the good old ones, but it's hard to find some that will actually interest me.
And also, animes with an female lead are lesser known.

With Magical Girls being a niche, i meant that it really is a genre that ALWAYS has girls as main characters in them, just like the name says. It can't exist with a male protagonist.

"Are you taking your anime recommendations from a Jojo fan?"
Not sure what you mean by that.

Clebardman said:
*Looks at his list* Meh, there's a lot of good stuff here, you still have shows to w- FLCL 1 and KlK 2? You can stop watching anime rn (^:

Anyway, feminism is present in anime, strong female leads too, you're just not looking at the right place, or pretending not to see it to make a point. Try to watch Rose of Versaille.


*googles KlK*
Sorry, but the over the top comedy of those 2 made me cringe too hard. Couldn't continue.

Maybe i am not looking at the right place, i'm pretty picky about what i should watch next.
I do have Rose of Versaille in my PTW list tho, heard good things about it.
 
Sep 18, 2017 6:49 AM

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zodd0 said:
_LapisLazuli said:
I don't see how feminism would solve rape/sexual assault/stalking problem. Feminism will solve equal rights, but not these problems. (btw, in most developed countries, equal rights have already been solved, haven't they?)

Feminism is teaching men not to rape, teaching men to respect women and teaching them that womens bodies belong to the women and not to men. Instead women are being taught not to get raped, through slut-shaming and victim-blaming.

_LapisLazuli said:
These problems have something to do with people being an asshole, they have nothing to do with people not thinking of female as "equal" gender.

What? Then why aren't women being "assholes" since 99% of rapists are men?



In my country, men are taught to respect women since childhood. And it's not called "feminism", it's called "being a human".

Maybe it's cultural difference but I do get your point.
 
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