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#1
Sep 13, 8:24 AM
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Just what the title says, when have you disagreed with the moral of the story?

For example, Sakurasou's moral was that if you try hard enough you can write a shitty time skip that cures autism
 
#2
Sep 13, 8:26 AM

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Fairy Tail's moral which is "Friends will always give you strength" I mean should have made it that you need to count on yourself and abilities and not other people yah.
 
#3
Sep 13, 8:33 AM

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Chuu2 Koi for letting character bound to the past instead of letting them move on and grow.
 
#4
Sep 13, 8:35 AM

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Almost every shounen anime ever that speaks "being a hero is cool". I've been subverted enough with heroism theme by stuffs like Fate series, SukaSuka, etc that I can't see it as being cool.

Macross Do You Remember Love: That women should obey men, even when they're on higher ranks. I'm no misogynist.

Texhnolyze: That life is meaningless. To live is to life.
 
#5
Sep 13, 9:15 AM

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When Male MC didn't even both doing with with the waifus in his harem

I facepalm everytime.

 
#6
Sep 13, 9:20 AM
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I honestly can't think of anything where the moral of the anime made me even consider disagreeing
I either agree or most likely ignore and don't care
 
#7
Sep 13, 9:21 AM

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Pizzagun said:
For example, Sakurasou's moral was that if you try hard enough you can write a shitty time skip that cures autism
Well that's pretty retarded. Thanks for cleaning up a show from my PTW list.
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#8
Sep 13, 9:22 AM

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Nisekoi
this piece of shit glorify abusive/forced relationships
 
#9
Sep 13, 9:41 AM

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Accel world's moral which is " It's okay to be a fat fucking loser as long as you're good at video games and can impress hot chicks with that shit"
 
Sep 13, 9:52 AM

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Himouto! Umaru-chan: "It's okay to not develop as a person at all, remain a little shit for the rest of your life because it's funny."
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Sep 13, 9:55 AM

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Hunter x Hunter

Random characters dying don't matter as long as it move the story. Only care about death if it concern the story
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Sep 13, 9:58 AM

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Soul Eater spoiler below


 
Sep 13, 10:03 AM
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I did disagree with some Kara No Kyoukai morals. But then I rewatched it, and while I'm still against some things they say, I can't help but think the ''ideal'' pictured in that serie might solve a lot of porblems if applied correctly.

Long story short is : you can only murder once. Once you murdered, you are no longer human, hence, killing a murderer is not a murder, it's only killing something. The concept of ''murder'' is, basically, killing someone willingly and not regretting it. Problem is that I am against death penalty and for an absolutely equal justice for every crime (Don't mind if you don't agree with me, I won't explain my reasons here on a anime forum xD) ; yet, it,s true that if you consider murderers not human anymore, death penalty isn't death penalty anymore and you can then get rid of dangerous criminals despite my beliefs.
 
Sep 13, 10:12 AM

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Lord_Sithis said:
Pizzagun said:
For example, Sakurasou's moral was that if you try hard enough you can write a shitty time skip that cures autism
Well that's pretty retarded. Thanks for cleaning up a show from my PTW list.
The anime is good enough. It's the ln that you shouldn't touch.
 
Sep 13, 10:18 AM

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I pay so little attention to those sorts of elements I'm pretty sure that even if I were to say the impression I got of one, it'd miss the mark. So I don't really care.
 
Sep 13, 1:20 PM

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Shigatsu presents abuse and denial as the solution to trauma from abuse.

Hunter x Hunter (2011)'s Chimera Ant arc portrays humans as being evil for subduing the animal world.

The difference between the two is that in the former case it was directly connected to the core of the story, which made it virtually impossible for me to ignore, unlike in the latter case.
 
Sep 13, 1:25 PM

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Sep 13, 1:32 PM

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Arjuna. Screw you, humans are omnivores, and meat is delicious.

The stuff about humans being a plague upon nature and causing harmful pollution that destroys the planet is true though.
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Sep 13, 1:36 PM
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PO1SON said:
Fairy Tail's moral which is "Friends will always give you strength" I mean should have made it that you need to count on yourself and abilities and not other people yah.

Have you heard about social capital? I mean I don't mean to defend Fairy tail, but I hate when people look down on relationships.
 
Sep 13, 1:59 PM
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I'm not sure if it was a moral or not, but Griffith did nothing wrong. Yeah, the Band of the Hawk had issues of being over-dependent on him, and should have followed Guts instead (Go your own way, make your own --more simple-- dream), but I still hate Griffith, even if I think he's a well written character.

I just dont like his vague ambition, which parallels to real life royalty and nationalism. Everything about his moral supports egoism, opportunism, imperialism, and other stuff I hate. I wish he could just enjoy the simple things in life like close friendship.
 
Sep 13, 2:09 PM

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Death note is based on the premise that, at least for a while, Kira's approach to justice can be considered valid for discussion. I would have got him in jail from minute one.

Hunter x Hunter has tons of morals I'd disagree with, but to be honest a lot of those stem from the characters and the series does not necessarily support their morality. Gon's attitude is beyond toxic.

Parasyte has good intentions but its pro-vegan morals are terribly inserted, to the point I can't take them seriously. It also suffers from confirmation bias in this regard, not even setting a proper debate.
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Sep 13, 2:11 PM

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Looks like people see morals even in stories who didn't look like they ever intended to show you the right way.

I would nominate Chirin no Suzu but it's either because I'm not japanese or because I misunderstood its aim.
Rei366 said:
Great tale about trying to break away from its condition.
"Try to fight your fate/condition/origin and it will set you apart from the others", ouch. To stay in society, conformity is the key? Written like that, it makes sense this originated from Japan.

It's not that I consider it entirely false, but I xould be against promoting this kind of ideas to (very) young persons.
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Sep 13, 2:26 PM

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I mean, ReLife is pretty dubious. I don't care what the experiment is, it's a bit morally ambiguous to secretly insert a random fully grown man into the lives of high schoolers.

Also, Itazura Na Kiss. It seems cool with the idea of having to literally beg for a scrap of affection before you're worthy of it.
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Sep 13, 3:41 PM

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Toradora - If you beat him hard enough, he will fall in love with you

_Ako_ said:
When Male MC didn't even both doing with with the waifus in his harem

I facepalm everytime.

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Sep 13, 3:49 PM
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Every theme and moral msg is interesting to see if its well delivered. However, some of them are very annoying if they are not very well executed, like the classic ''Friendship is magic'' thing from some shonen shows. No good show is really going to have a ''wrong moral msg'', shit like ''pedofilia/sexism/racism is good'' i mean, those things dont get made into anime and they shouldnt lol.
 
Sep 13, 4:13 PM

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Elfen Lied: Humans are the true monsters. Killing tons of people is okay if someone killed your dog when you were a kid.
 
Sep 13, 4:15 PM

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School Days, I know the average harem isn't realistic, but the way the anime attempts to subvert rom-com tropes is toxic and sends even more sexist messages about both men and women.
FMmatron said:
The actual problem is,that ecchi is the cause for many shitty threads.


 
Sep 13, 4:22 PM
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Zeruk said:
Hunter x Hunter

Random characters dying don't matter as long as it move the story. Only care about death if it concern the story
That isn't a moral of the story...
C
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Sep 13, 4:27 PM
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TripleSRank said:
Shigatsu presents abuse and denial as the solution to trauma from abuse.

Hunter x Hunter (2011)'s Chimera Ant arc portrays humans as being evil for subduing the animal world.

The difference between the two is that in the former case it was directly connected to the core of the story, which made it virtually impossible for me to ignore, unlike in the latter case.
The moral to the Crimera Ant arc is that human's are not evil, but that they can do evil things. They showed both humans and Crimera ants doing evil things, even Gon, because the moral is that in the right situations, anyone can be good or evil.
 
Sep 13, 4:32 PM
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hypocrite_tenma said:
I'm not sure if it was a moral or not, but Griffith did nothing wrong. Yeah, the Band of the Hawk had issues of being over-dependent on him, and should have followed Guts instead (Go your own way, make your own --more simple-- dream), but I still hate Griffith, even if I think he's a well written character.

I just dont like his vague ambition, which parallels to real life royalty and nationalism. Everything about his moral supports egoism, opportunism, imperialism, and other stuff I hate. I wish he could just enjoy the simple things in life like close friendship.
You are mixing up morals and memes good sir. Also YOU CAN'T MAKE PROGRESS WITHOUT SACRIFICE
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Sep 13, 5:46 PM

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Mostly every morals about "Never give up!" and "Believe in yourself" because the main protagonist tend to have the "plot ressource" (something like plot armor but defined in the beginning.)

The main hero, as weak and miserable as you want, always has or find something (a legacy, a power, a weapon, a prophecy) he will makes him "unique" and stronger than most of people. He won't be strong or special by himself but because by luck or destiny.

For instance : Naruto, Boku No Hero, TTGL...

And I can't help myself rolling my eyes everytime I got "humanity is hopeful" moral. It mostly show how much humans are such a great race by our ability to beat the crap out of anything standing in our ways than finding compromises and doing compassionate acts...
 
Sep 13, 5:49 PM

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Fate/Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works.

"Becoming a hero out of guilt makes you fake!"
Bullshit. There are plenty of people in real life who decide to save other people out of guilt. That doesn't make them any less of a hero.

Fate/Stay Night is always up its own ass.
"You don't need a reason to live, you just live"
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Sep 13, 5:53 PM

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MagicalBiche said:
I did disagree with some Kara No Kyoukai morals. But then I rewatched it, and while I'm still against some things they say, I can't help but think the ''ideal'' pictured in that serie might solve a lot of porblems if applied correctly.

Long story short is : you can only murder once. Once you murdered, you are no longer human, hence, killing a murderer is not a murder, it's only killing something. The concept of ''murder'' is, basically, killing someone willingly and not regretting it. Problem is that I am against death penalty and for an absolutely equal justice for every crime (Don't mind if you don't agree with me, I won't explain my reasons here on a anime forum xD) ; yet, it,s true that if you consider murderers not human anymore, death penalty isn't death penalty anymore and you can then get rid of dangerous criminals despite my beliefs.


Yeah, Garden of Sinners I remember was also kind of up its own ass.
I mean what the hell does, "killing more than once makes you no longer human" mean? If you kill someone...you kill them.
"You don't need a reason to live, you just live"
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Sep 13, 6:01 PM

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ThatCynicalOtaku said:
Fate/Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works.

"Becoming a hero out of guilt makes you fake!"
Bullshit. There are plenty of people in real life who decide to save other people out of guilt. That doesn't make them any less of a hero.

Fate/Stay Night is always up its own ass.


I'm pretty sure one of the messages of the Fate VN is:

"Fake or real, it doesn't matter, I will continue on my path because it's beautiful."
FMmatron said:
The actual problem is,that ecchi is the cause for many shitty threads.


 
Sep 13, 6:09 PM

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ThatCynicalOtaku said:
Fate/Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works.

"Becoming a hero out of guilt makes you fake!"
Bullshit. There are plenty of people in real life who decide to save other people out of guilt. That doesn't make them any less of a hero.

Fate/Stay Night is always up its own ass.


Prett sure the anime was supporting Shirou when he tried to "prove" that his ideal was still real even if he started following it out of guilt.
 
Sep 13, 6:28 PM

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SuperRed said:
ThatCynicalOtaku said:
Fate/Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works.

"Becoming a hero out of guilt makes you fake!"
Bullshit. There are plenty of people in real life who decide to save other people out of guilt. That doesn't make them any less of a hero.

Fate/Stay Night is always up its own ass.


I'm pretty sure one of the messages of the Fate VN is:

"Fake or real, it doesn't matter, I will continue on my path because it's beautiful."


But...that's the thing. Nothing about Shirou, is fake, to begin with. He was the sole survivor of a big-ass fire. So he decides, "Ya know what? I don't want this to happen to anyone else". So he dedicated his life helping people with even dumb things like cleaning.
And he enjoys it. He loves it.
So he's a true hero. That simple.
"You don't need a reason to live, you just live"
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Sep 13, 6:29 PM

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Any anime that advances any of the following variations of the same essential idea:

  • "You're not allowed to get over your mistakes."
  • "You're not allowed to move on."
  • "If you hurt/kill someone, you're obligated to remember it and spend the rest of your life trying to make up for it."
  • "Those who have killed aren't allowed to ever be happy again."
  • "You owe the rest of your life to the dead."

Seriously, what kind of tripe is this? There's no reason to torment oneself for the rest of one's life over something that can no longer be changed. It helps nobody: not the person suffering, and certainly not the dead. The dead are out of your reach. You can't do anything for them.

When you make a mistake, even a grave mistake, you learn from it and do your best to do better in the future. You don't torture yourself with regret and misery; you don't "live for the dead;" you just try do the same thing you should be doing even if you didn't make the mistake: keep trying to be a better person. That may involve trying to clean up after your mistake, or it may not.

Oh, and then there's the infernal "killing is always evil" bit. Utter nonsense. What is truly evil is allowing a monstrous individual to massacre others just because of such a ludicrous ideal.

As you can imagine, I had quite a bone to pick with SAO's Phantom Bullet arc.

ThatCynicalOtaku said:
If you kill someone...you kill them.

So I guess what you're saying is...

I pursue my own path, just like you.
My path is not intrinsically “better” than yours. There is no natural law which makes one action objectively “right” and another “wrong.”
However, just like you, there are things I consider good and things I abhor as evil. I will protect that which I cherish and fight that which I despise, not because of some natural "law," but by my own choice. Should our paths align, I will fight for you, too. Should you oppose me, I have no qualms about opposing you.
Perhaps our encounter will even help us to "improve" our paths.
See you on the battlefield, friend.
 
Sep 13, 6:46 PM

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ThatCynicalOtaku said:
SuperRed said:


I'm pretty sure one of the messages of the Fate VN is:

"Fake or real, it doesn't matter, I will continue on my path because it's beautiful."


But...that's the thing. Nothing about Shirou, is fake, to begin with. He was the sole survivor of a big-ass fire. So he decides, "Ya know what? I don't want this to happen to anyone else". So he dedicated his life helping people with even dumb things like cleaning.
And he enjoys it. He loves it.
So he's a true hero. That simple.


Well in UBW Archer argues that Shirou is fake because he didn't really come to that specific ideal on his own, he basically saw that Kiritsugu had ideals of what a hero should be and because he just happened to be the one who saved him from the fire he decided to fulfill Kiritsugu's dream in his place after he left him.

Also, he doesn't mean Shirou is not a hero at all, he was talking about his ultimate ideal hero that can save everyone, which is very idealistic and not possible for someone who isn't a god.
FMmatron said:
The actual problem is,that ecchi is the cause for many shitty threads.


 
Sep 13, 6:55 PM

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Pizzagun said:
Just what the title says, when have you disagreed with the moral of the story?

For example, Sakurasou's moral was that if you try hard enough you can write a shitty time skip that cures autism


Like another person said, the anime was fine enough and I'm assuming you're talking about the LN anyway. I just wanna clarify, though, that the biggest themes that Sakurasou seemed to convey were those of failure. The message or moral of the story was basically, "Hard work doesn't always pay off" or "Just because you don't give up doesn't mean you will succeed."

Now, I don't want this to turn into whether or not the anime was good, I just wanted to say that the moral of Sakurasou is by far the most interesting part and something I really appreciated for taking a more realistic approach, opposed to the overly idealistic conclusions of other shows.
 
Sep 13, 7:09 PM

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SuperRed said:
ThatCynicalOtaku said:


But...that's the thing. Nothing about Shirou, is fake, to begin with. He was the sole survivor of a big-ass fire. So he decides, "Ya know what? I don't want this to happen to anyone else". So he dedicated his life helping people with even dumb things like cleaning.
And he enjoys it. He loves it.
So he's a true hero. That simple.


Well in UBW Archer argues that Shirou is fake because he didn't really come to that specific ideal on his own, he basically saw that Kiritsugu had ideals of what a hero should be and because he just happened to be the one who saved him from the fire he decided to fulfill Kiritsugu's dream in his place after he left him.

Also, he doesn't mean Shirou is not a hero at all, he was talking about his ultimate ideal hero that can save everyone, which is very idealistic and not possible for someone who isn't a god.


That's how many people, in real life, develop a heroic ideal. They learn it from their parents, so they decide to follow in their footsteps.
That's doesn't make them any less of a hero.

Of course Shirou's ideal, "Save every person" is impossible.
But that's how actual people are. We all have an impossible dream. We all dream of a world where everyone's happy. But it's not possible.
But does that mean actual people give up on it?
A rational person in real life would not say, "it's futile trying to make people happy, because not everybody can be happy".
Ghandhi knew this. But did he mope? No. He moved, he started a protest movement, he got jailed, he worked endlessly to free India from British control. He did everything he could to ensure as many people could be happy.

Guilt, copying, none of that shit matters in real life. What matters in real life, is wanting to help people, and actually doing it. If that happens, there's no such thing as a, "pointless ideal".

All of this is something everybody knows by the time they're 10. Hell, Shirou's 18, and he knew all this from the start. So Archer's lecture, their conflict, is pointless, and so is them message, because everybody knows the message.
"You don't need a reason to live, you just live"
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Sep 13, 7:10 PM

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CatSoul said:
Himouto! Umaru-chan: "It's okay to not develop as a person at all, remain a little shit for the rest of your life because it's funny."

except it's wrong...

umaru redeeming herself a lot after anime... it's not about being a brat, but honest and accepting yourself, also trust...

ladamesansmerci said:
I mean, ReLife is pretty dubious. I don't care what the experiment is, it's a bit morally ambiguous to secretly insert a random fully grown man into the lives of high schoolers.

to searching what an adult lost that make them fail as an adult so feflecting their youth to get it back...

OT:
too many times, but i prefer to ignore it TBH... morality is socialy inter-subjective anyways...
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on."
 
Sep 13, 7:32 PM

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ThatCynicalOtaku said:
SuperRed said:


Well in UBW Archer argues that Shirou is fake because he didn't really come to that specific ideal on his own, he basically saw that Kiritsugu had ideals of what a hero should be and because he just happened to be the one who saved him from the fire he decided to fulfill Kiritsugu's dream in his place after he left him.

Also, he doesn't mean Shirou is not a hero at all, he was talking about his ultimate ideal hero that can save everyone, which is very idealistic and not possible for someone who isn't a god.


That's how many people, in real life, develop a heroic ideal. They learn it from their parents, so they decide to follow in their footsteps.
That's doesn't make them any less of a hero.

Of course Shirou's ideal, "Save every person" is impossible.
But that's how actual people are. We all have an impossible dream. We all dream of a world where everyone's happy. But it's not possible.
But does that mean actual people give up on it?
A rational person in real life would not say, "it's futile trying to make people happy, because not everybody can be happy".
Ghandhi knew this. But did he mope? No. He moved, he started a protest movement, he got jailed, he worked endlessly to free India from British control. He did everything he could to ensure as many people could be happy.

Guilt, copying, none of that shit matters in real life. What matters in real life, is wanting to help people, and actually doing it. If that happens, there's no such thing as a, "pointless ideal".

All of this is something everybody knows by the time they're 10. Hell, Shirou's 18, and he knew all this from the start. So Archer's lecture, their conflict, is pointless, and so is them message, because everybody knows the message.
Just want to give a little correction on what shirou ideal meant to himself.
I'll need to talk about Shirou character now.

So you see, Shirou ideal is not inherited in a normal sense like other people but just a fake-illusion to fill his hollow self (or at least that's how it starts out). That's why archer calls it fake.
Modified by Cactii, Sep 13, 7:36 PM
 
Sep 13, 7:44 PM

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There are certain morals and ideals which I disagree but I can see why people would agree.

Often the point in which I start to find it going extreme is where the anime loses it for me, it becomes a form of perversion of the ideal. Anime tend to do that with ideals of friendship and justice, but I can see why they choose to do it because it paints characters with a very strong sense of direction in a series.
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Sep 13, 7:46 PM

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Tales of Zestiria the X, how killing is wrong, no matter what and even if the person deserves it or not. I understand why that's the case in the world of Zestiria, because of malevolence, however I generally can't agree to that.
 
Sep 13, 7:47 PM

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Cactii said:
ThatCynicalOtaku said:


That's how many people, in real life, develop a heroic ideal. They learn it from their parents, so they decide to follow in their footsteps.
That's doesn't make them any less of a hero.

Of course Shirou's ideal, "Save every person" is impossible.
But that's how actual people are. We all have an impossible dream. We all dream of a world where everyone's happy. But it's not possible.
But does that mean actual people give up on it?
A rational person in real life would not say, "it's futile trying to make people happy, because not everybody can be happy".
Ghandhi knew this. But did he mope? No. He moved, he started a protest movement, he got jailed, he worked endlessly to free India from British control. He did everything he could to ensure as many people could be happy.

Guilt, copying, none of that shit matters in real life. What matters in real life, is wanting to help people, and actually doing it. If that happens, there's no such thing as a, "pointless ideal".

All of this is something everybody knows by the time they're 10. Hell, Shirou's 18, and he knew all this from the start. So Archer's lecture, their conflict, is pointless, and so is them message, because everybody knows the message.
Just want to give a little correction on what shirou ideal meant to himself.
I'll need to talk about Shirou character now.

So you see, Shirou ideal is not inherited in a normal sense like other people but just a fake-illusion to fill his hollow self (or at least that's how it starts out). That's why archer calls it fake.


Okay...why does that matter?
Shiriou still wants to actually save people. He doesn't get brainwashed, or anything.
There are plenty of people who lost everything they held dear, who went through hell, lost all their sense-of-self, and so they decide to pursue a dream to be whole again.
That's great.
There are 100s of actual people who decided to become attorneys, doctors, etc, to help people, because they felt like shit, and wanted to gain self-worth.
Hell, I bet plenty of shut-ins with no sense of self-worth, decide to get a career where they help people.
See, this is the problem, with anime like Fate/Stay Night and Nisemonogatari: the writers want to make an original message. But the problem is, they focus so much on making the message original, out-there, not-cliche, that they forget why messages in storytelling, have any value to begin with:
Because messages, are meant to make a statement. A statement, that is actually relevant, to our reality.
Nobody in real life, gives a shit if you decide to become a hero, because you feel like shit. Because that doesn't matter. What matters is, you decide to be a great person, and help others.
Sure, is Shirou losing his sense of self-worth bad? Hell yeah, it's bad. But that doesn't make him, "fake". He doesn't save people for money, glory, fame.
So he's a real hero.
"You don't need a reason to live, you just live"
-Nero Vanetti, 91 Days
 
Sep 13, 7:50 PM

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To begin with, is there any morals to disagree with in Kuroinu?
 
Sep 13, 8:03 PM

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I think things like questionable and ambiguous morality are the crux of a series like Death Note
Immahnoob said:
They say Jesus walked on water.
People are made out of 79% water.
I can walk on people.
So I am 79% Jesus.
Sourire said:
I once fucked an apple pie.
 
Sep 13, 8:05 PM
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i disagree with nakama power but its still entertaining anyway

im conflicted with the end justify the means morals like Madara from Naruto is doing but i do think in reality necessary evil needs to happen until humanity comes up with better solutions with the help of science and technology for example
 
Sep 13, 8:08 PM
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quite a lot of time
but i'm not really disagree with it, I just think about it
who know, it might changes my point of view
 
Sep 13, 8:09 PM

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ThatCynicalOtaku said:
Cactii said:
Just want to give a little correction on what shirou ideal meant to himself.
I'll need to talk about Shirou character now.

So you see, Shirou ideal is not inherited in a normal sense like other people but just a fake-illusion to fill his hollow self (or at least that's how it starts out). That's why archer calls it fake.


Okay...why does that matter?
Shiriou still wants to actually save people. He doesn't get brainwashed, or anything.
There are plenty of people who lost everything they held dear, who went through hell, lost all their sense-of-self, and so they decide to pursue a dream to be whole again.
That's great.
The thing is, he's not pursuing a dream to be whole again, but just find "something" to fill the hole. This make the rest of your reply become irrelevant.
That's the reason Archer call his idea to be fake.

Secondly, you're are confusing between Archer's provocation or maybe his ideology and the message of the route as whole.
what you're proposing, A hallow unclear ideal is a fake ideal, is Archer's argument to Shirou, a provocation or his personal ideology at worst for argument sake. It's not the message of the route. And then we need to discuss if Archer really feel that way.

Archer is actually just wanted Shirou to show him that pursuing his ideal never wrong in the first place. That's why he forge shirou rather than killing him instantly.

So claiming that "Becoming a hero out of guilt makes you fake!" is merely you failing in giving a distinguish in what is theme, what is message, what is character ideology and what is provoking statement. What Shirou show us is actually the opposite of what you claim.
Modified by Cactii, Sep 14, 6:05 PM
 
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