So why people consider Fate/Zero as the real Fate serie and other works beside that a fail of the franchise?

I never said you called someone retarded. I said you called their logic retarded. However, you did call me "slow," which is basically the equivalent of calling me retarded on a lesser scale. Or are you going to say that never happened now lol?

...You answered this already. Other people answered this. And you called their logic retarded. And yes, you are expressing yourself terribly.

Aardwolf94 said:

Shirou is basically just a "faker" and naive as hell, his personality is annoying. Also his power ups are ridiculous and unlike Kiritsugu he never suffers for his ideals.

Wasshio said:

Well I meant more in UBW's route but it also shows from HF as well (as far as I'm aware of). Thing is, I can't really care for Kiritsugu by comparison when it came to his actions and the ideals either, it didn't really felt anything with the series at all.

And it's not really because compared to Shirou I can at least understand the situation, at least in my opinion, the biggest gripe for me for Fate/Zero was clearly its own writing, especially the execution. I don't like how that series executed that part and that mainly affected the appreciation I COULD have to Zero which affected the characters and their actions, components etc.

It affected most things the series was trying to deliver, and failed to deliver it properly where it can make me really appreciate what make those characters good, or even make me like those characters (I prefer characters than story but if a story affects my enjoyment towards the characters then its a big minus for me).

In Fate/stay Night I really didn't felt or had that issue since at that point I got more so the idea of the war in lesser time Zero took, and I thought the relationship between Rin/Shirou was nice. Not saying that for Kiritsugu and Irisviel's chemistry (iirc) was bad... but I couldn't really give two damns in the end by comparison.

I believe Zero has as much fault to be honest and well I don't neccesarily even think Zero is good by comparison to stay/Night (not saying that S/N is amazing, but I thought it was more satisfying) though I prefer other entries from the Fate anime available compared to these two. So.

Veromaye said:


"He never suffers for his ideals."

Uhh yeah right. What do you think Archer is?
What about when Illya is killed by Gilgamesh? Apparently you think he didn't suffered because he was unable to do anything to save her?
What about when Fuji was kidnapped and he was giving his own arm to save her? Not only this but he used his own body to protect Rin against Saber attack? Isn't this suffering?
Isn't being unable to do anything considering that your ideals are to help someone no matter what a way of suffering?

Veromaye said:
@SaigoKensei

Sorry, did you confused this thread with the ep 17 one?

Besides that, I think you're right, but as it also happened in Zero, they were trying to stop Guiles and Ryuunosuke because they discovered they were killing people just like Jack and Reika did.

So is not completely wrong that they're trying to stop this threat. About the trying to know who the masters are, well.. There's no master left to know or discover about.
The only thing that is stopping Shirou from using the Grail is killing the other servants that are left ¿?

But yeah I can't say is weird to get disappoint by Apo.

Aardwolf94 said:


Never said F/Z was perfect and I obviously exaggerated the post since the other user was doing the same.

Also what do you mean its understandable by F/SN's later parts?

Anyway it being intentional doesn't make it any better and no I don't think Shirou is realistic at all. Most people wouldn't suddenly be so obsessed with someone's ideals, that he suffers PTSD of sorts from the fire event is understandable but the other part isn't. His stubborn "I know better and I'm 100% nice no matter what" personality feels like its taken straight out of the Shounen archtype

And Kiritsugu isn't exactly realistic but he is compelling and thats the difference between the two. His ideals are much more realistic (no shit you cant save everyone..) and his backstory makes me feel more invested in his character. Also like I said the ruthless and morally ambigious personality is refreshing to watch, there aren't many anime MC's like him.

Shirou is basically just a "faker" and naive as hell, his personality is annoying. Also his power ups are ridiculous and unlike Kiritsugu he never suffers for his ideals.

Veromaye said:
Archer doesn't count at all

WEW LOL okay.

SwiftKilla said:


He's 100% nice because helping others in need makes him happy. Why wouldn't you do things that make you happy? But that's the issue with his character, people normally find happiness in doing things for the sake of themselves, Shirou doesn't. When he practices magecraft he doesn't feel happiness in honing the skills for himself, he practices magecraft to be of use to other people. Rin pointed that out during episode 11 or 12.


You don't seem to understand Kerry and Shirou's ideals, they're the same, Shirou basically inherited his dream, they simply used different approaches and different methods of handling the approaches. Kerry killed his emotions during his killings, Shirou became clouded by his thoughts of powerlessness, coupled with his own selflessness, he sold his soul to the counter force in exchange for a miracle.

lequack said:
I haven't played the game but I thought the anime for Fate: Stay Night was garbage. The main character - Shirou was annoying and made me want to drop the show and I ended up dropping it. Fate Zero on the other hand was more interesting for me.

I don't care about Nasu or whatever he wanted to create. I am only interested on what entertained me. Fate Zero entertained me however Fate Stay Night made me feel like I wasted my time. It it was not the same as the author's vision I really don't care because I thought it was better.

Aardwolf94 said:


Well he doesn't..he made different experiences along the way and changed completely. He is very different from the Shirou who is our MC. Counting him feels cheap to me, like it shows that Shirou isn't good enough to stand on his own so we have to count some future alternate version lol

Veromaye said:


Archer IS Shirou, no matter how you say he's not, no matter that you reject it. EMIYA is Shirou. That they have different experiences? Yes. But he's still Emiya Shirou that had the same ideal. The only different is that one is going to suffer less than another. If Shirou discovered a way to become something like Archer, he wouldn't hesitate of accepting the deal as long as he's able to protect or prevent people from suffering. The only thing that prevent this is their experiences from FSN. Heck I bet after all routes he still will suffer by his ideals.

The fact that you don't accept his suffering as real it's just because you hate the character.
Shirou could be suffering to the same level of Kiritsugu and you wouldn't accept it.
Who are you to say that the character not experienced a lot of suffering seeing those people dying and him being able to do nothing? Him believing that he shouldn't have survived?

Just because Kiritsugu had to kill his own father this means his suffering is more important, relevant or special?

But yeahhh whatever you say sir. As long as you're happy.

Aardwolf94 said:


He is not the Shirou we follow, he isn't the MC. He is an alternate future self who is basically a very different character because of the experiences he made.

No its because apart from the fire (which I accept 100%) his "suffering" is a joke. Kiritsugu's whole home town was destroyed because he didn't have what it takes, he killed his father, he killed his "mother", he caused 500 innocent people to die, his wife died, he never saw his daughter again, the grail cursed him so he died early and became weak etc.

Its not even close. And I'm not saying every character needs to suffer but to even compare these two and call Shirou's fine life suffering sounds a like bullshit to me. So hell yes Kiritsugu's suffering is more relevant and special.

Shirou never had to make any hard choices and apart from Illya dying (who he didnt even know unlike in the Deen adaptation) nothing bad happened to him in both anime, despite how reckless and naive he was. He almost lost Saber, Taiga etc. but it was just almost.

Veromaye said:

The only thing that prevent this is their experiences from FSN. Heck I bet after all routes he still will suffer by his ideals.

lazypigz said:

So... if Archer is an entirely different character than Shirou why does he want to prevent Shirou from repeating the same mistakes? If you're basing this “Archer isn't Shirou” thing based on personality then sure of course he's going to be a very different character ffs.

You might have gotten Fate Extra Archer Emiya mixed up with FSN Archer Emiya. Extra Archer is a different character because he doesn't remember shit, but FSN Archer is the same because he knows he's Emiya Shirou. So tell me, how is Archer not Shirou, how is Emiya Shirou not Emiya Shirou?

Aardwolf94 said:

I'm basing it on the personality and the difference in experiences. I think counting him to the shirou we know is cheap. They aren't exactly the same..not anymore

Aardwolf94 said:
Well he doesn't..he made different experiences along the way and changed completely. He is very different from the Shirou who is our MC. Counting him feels cheap to me, like it shows that Shirou isn't good enough to stand on his own so we have to count some future alternate version lol

NekO_RelliK said:
ive watched zero, fsn, and ubw and a bit of prisma illya.

honestly loved all but prisma illya.

prisma illya, take moon, hallow atraxia, and colosseum seem to veer wildly away from anything related to fate apart from the reuse of some characters from what i've heard and seen for my self.

lazypigz said:
Can't comment on Hollow Ataraxia and Colosseum because i haven't read them, but isn't Fate Kaleid and Carnival Phantasm just Fate by name only? They wern't supposed to be anything remotely Fate except for Fate Kaleid after a few seasons

Aardwolf94 said:


Archer doesn't count at all, he is just just future alternate self who is basically completely different.

Thats not suffering...he couldn't even try to save her since Rin held him back. If he tried and then was owned by Gil then that would have been satisfying and shown him how stupid his worldview/ideals are. But the next time they seriously meet (before that Gil just lets him go.. for weak ass reasons) he has already gotten such a ridiculous power up that he can defeat him..lol

No it isn't..Saber after some weird S&M shit from Casca was unharmed. There were literally no bad consequences from that. Him being a dumbass and constantly protecting people even though he wasn't capable was just stupid

lazypigz said:


After all 3 routes of FSN Shirou has a next to nothing chance of being Archer

lazypigz said:

Only after FSN is Shirou not the same anymore though. But during FSN both Shirous should be the same because they have experienced the same things, holding the same ideals during the HGW?
If they're not the same then why does Shirou know Unlimited Blade Works, albeit with a different chant.

Basing it on personality seems like a weak point to argue about too.


But he did hold his own against Archer and Gil in UBW, and if he was able to recreate Caliburn (or Excalibur, don't remember i'm mixing up with Fate Kaleid) in Saber route then he would be able to hold his own too

SwiftKilla said:


So you mean selling your soul to damnation for eternity isn't suffering?

Suffering from his own powerlessness of saving Illya from Gil counts. You have no idea how much Shirou wanted to jump in there and help Illya, Rin held him back because she's worried about his self destructive nature. Also did you not hear why Gil let them go? The heart was gonna go to shit, not that any of them were threats to him (no one was a threat to him even in Fate/Zero.) Oh man not this shit again about Shirou vs Gil later on.

Wow are you serious? If that's not suffering then what is?

Aardwolf94 said:


So? That doesn't make him more interesting to me instead its annoying since he is so naive. He acts reckless and stupid because of it...I'll take a compelling anti hero (with far more understandable motivations and goals) over that any day. Not to mention F/Z actually had a great ensemble cast, F/SN shafts most characters to focus on the MC and the latter still sucks.

Both wanted to be heroes of justice but Kerry realized soon that its not possible so he became ruthless and killed the minority to save the majority. Shirou is just nice and thinks he can save everyone and unlike Kerry he never had to make any hard choices so it feels hollow and doesn't have the same impact. I'm pretty sure if Shirou had to basically kill his loved one's to save innocents he would break and that would be it for his whole "hero of justice" bs.

Its a weak excuse, Gil could have easily killed them on his way out considering how powerful he is.

And no its not really suffering..he didn't go down and he barely knew her. Also what do you mean with this "So you mean selling your soul to damnation for eternity isn't suffering?"? I thought only Archer did that, not the Shirou we know

SigmaticDoc said:
Mainly cause Zero, unlike the rest, has actual care put into it's writing.
The most interesting cast by far as well.

The rest are borderline terrible when it comes to writing, the same goes for the visual novel.

I think I will pick up the Fate anime again, cause it's been like 4 years since I've last watched them. I don't think they're on my MAL actually, since I made it in 2015...
Anyways.

AzurealX said:
Mainly cause Zero, unlike the rest, has actual care put into it's writing.
The most interesting cast by far as well.

The rest are borderline terrible when it comes to writing, the same goes for the visual novel.

I think I will pick up the Fate anime again, cause it's been like 4 years since I've last watched them. I don't think they're on my MAL actually, since I made it in 2015...
Anyways.

Aardwolf94 said:


Nope. The argument was that Shirou is a compelling character who has suffered through a lot. One user showed Archer as an example but my point was that its not the main Shirou we follow through F/SN so it shouldn't count.

I never said that Archer wouldn't have been the same during this time in his life. But when talking about the characters there should be a clear distinction between them. Call him Archer Shirou and I would agree that he is an interesting character, the Shirou we follow though is annoying and generic as fuck.

I mean standing on his own as a character. Of course via cheap power ups/excuses he could somehow stand against Archer and Gil in UBW and even defeat the latter which was awful.