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Poll: Fate/Apocrypha Episode 3 Discussion


Jul 21, 2:20 AM

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alstreim14 said:
I was really hyped for Apocrypha, but so far, from the point of someone who reads the novel, isn't what i was expecting. Everything is so rushed to the point that it doesn't pass the right feeling that you should get. I'm not expecting by any means to be match the novel, but it could be way better.

This is surprising because 25 episodes are planned to fit 5 volumes, I think?

 
Jul 21, 3:06 AM
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Those fresh born homunculi sure act alot more humanlike than those of the Einzeberns. (Shouldn't they act more like dolls/machines?)
 
Jul 21, 3:18 AM
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Out of all the black faction Celen has to be the strangest one lol. Seeing your fellow's being dumped like garbage must be a scary sight. So an artificial human eh. This guy has a hell of a determination to wake up though which i guess is normal after seeing what happened to those that didn't. At least he was found by Rider who's one of the kindest servants on this side. Its nice that Rider realizes what's going on and hides him though. Rider really has a kind and caring personality though thats for sure and its nice that she's willing to take care of the guy until he recovers. To think that Ruler was seen as a threat and red lancer was sent to deal with her though. As expected of ruler to know the names and identities of her opponents. So thats rulers real identity eh. The appearance of black saber was a surprise. It looks like both sides are trying to use Ruler in their ways then. Gordes is mistaken if Ruler would fight alongside him though lol. Lancer as ever loves a straight up fight. Its nice that we get to see the backstory and origin of Black saber aka Siegfried. I guess as a knight Siegfried lived to serve and protect the people but the amount of wishes that he has to fulfill sure are large.

It is sad that his role as a knight ensured that Siegfried did not have a personality or indeed wish of his own though as his life ended though. Using the battle between lancer and saber to explain sabers motivations and beliefs was a nice move. Still the fight between the two was really good and both are evenly matched. Ruler is very dutiful towards her given rules i see. As judge and moderator she has to stay neutral in this fight. Gordes really gets angry way too easily. Its surprising how short the life span for artificial humans are though. Though i guess they are classed as tools i guess. Beserker has a surprisingly cute side to her though. Its nice seeing Caules try and get to know Beserker though. Beserker's origin story was pretty sad actually. The relationship between the two is pretty cute. Caules has a pretty close bond with his sister then eh. Its nice to see not just the servants but the masters are being expanded upon and fleshed out here. In a way both Fiore's and her servants wishes are pretty similar in that they center on healing and recovery. So red saber and her master decided to set up a base in a tomb eh. The red beserker though looks like a deranged lunatic. Interesting plan Darnic had in mind though.
 
Jul 21, 3:38 AM

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frenze12 said:
Those fresh born homunculi sure act alot more humanlike than those of the Einzeberns. (Shouldn't they act more like dolls/machines?)
The Einzebern homunculi showed a lot of emotion as well.Iri(because of Kiritsugu),Ilya's maids and the homunculi that Ilya met in that pool all of them had humanlike emotions when their masters werent around.
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Jul 21, 4:21 AM

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I'm so fucking done with this shit.
Bloated cast with almost no likable characters, way too mcuh boring exposition and probbaly the most atrocious fight scenes I have ever seen.
 
Jul 21, 6:21 AM

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TuyNOM said:
This is surprising because 25 episodes are planned to fit 5 volumes, I think?


I guess you wanted to say that it's not surprising? Well, i know that 25 episodes to fit 5 volumes of content isn't even close to ideal, but Fate/Zero was 25 to fit 4 volumes and turned out to be really good.

First of all, the first episode should have been 48 minutes long, like happened in Fate/Zero. That episode was something brilliant, cutting the opening/ending and using every single minute to "start the war", summoning all servants, introducing all masters, showing a bit of the trama, etc...
 
Jul 21, 1:03 PM

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alstreim14 said:
TuyNOM said:
This is surprising because 25 episodes are planned to fit 5 volumes, I think?


I guess you wanted to say that it's not surprising? Well, i know that 25 episodes to fit 5 volumes of content isn't even close to ideal, but Fate/Zero was 25 to fit 4 volumes and turned out to be really good.

First of all, the first episode should have been 48 minutes long, like happened in Fate/Zero. That episode was something brilliant, cutting the opening/ending and using every single minute to "start the war", summoning all servants, introducing all masters, showing a bit of the trama, etc...

I thought it would be enough. But I don't know the number of pages for each volume of Fate/Apocrypha, the story is perhaps very dense.

Completely agree with you for Fate/Zero. Ufotable did a brilliant work.

 
Jul 21, 4:10 PM

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Are people really liking this unironically?

 
Jul 21, 4:40 PM

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Terrible animation. The fights was mostly just effects and explosions, it was also way too short and the scenes just jump all over the place.

The currently inflated cast also makes it difficult to have any attachment for any of them, though I think that's natural for Fate. The cast now however is MUCH MUCH more inflated than most other Fate series, so the better start dropping quick before I lose interest.

I'm on the verge of dropping this, but the only thing keeping me here is that the Fate franchise tends to get better after characters die and the remaining ones get more focus.
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Jul 21, 8:01 PM

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lusyo said:
Are people really liking this unironically?
To be fair, so far it's still more bearable than the pretentious snoozefests that were Fate/Zero and Unlimited Boogers Works even though that's not saying much.

Then again, it's still a Type Moon series, so...

It's like expecting Key to write an earnest character driven drama that's not riddled with plot contrivances and forced/eye-rolling melodrama (aka it's not gonna happen).
 
Jul 21, 8:35 PM

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any of you having distorted sounds? explosion sounds are messed up
 
Jul 21, 11:52 PM

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BurningSpirit said:
Terrible animation. The fights was mostly just effects and explosions, it was also way too short and the scenes just jump all over the place.

The currently inflated cast also makes it difficult to have any attachment for any of them, though I think that's natural for Fate. The cast now however is MUCH MUCH more inflated than most other Fate series, so the better start dropping quick before I lose interest.

I'm on the verge of dropping this, but the only thing keeping me here is that the Fate franchise tends to get better after characters die and the remaining ones get more focus.


This is considered terrible animation to you?

https://twitter.com/o_ihs_oy/status/886264950091431937

Perhaps you should get your eyes checked.
 
Jul 21, 11:57 PM

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Karna called off the fight cause "It's morning and that could be a problem for your master so bye" What a dumb reason to end the fight lol
 
Jul 22, 12:50 AM

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Nice fight! I think the animation is great, but the explosion kinda mask some of the details. Either way, the fights are over the top compared to Fate or even UBW.

Glad to see Jeanne D' Arc having more screen time this time around!
 
Jul 22, 1:17 AM
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TiamatNM said:
Karna called off the fight cause "It's morning and that could be a problem for your master so bye" What a dumb reason to end the fight lol


Its actually a very huge problem for mages if common people know about magic and such. hence why Karna put stop the fight, tho he has no problem if siegfried's master want to continue the fight
 
Jul 22, 3:16 AM

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FlamingMangos said:
This is considered terrible animation to you?

https://twitter.com/o_ihs_oy/status/886264950091431937

Perhaps you should get your eyes checked.


It's not really amount of detail in the animation. It's the way they chose to represent the fight.

The background of the fight in this episode felt completely different from the one they were standing and talking in. I felt it not only when it transitioned into the fight scene, but also after the fight as the scene changed back to them talking again, which was incredibly immersion breaking. Where exactly was this mountain that red lancer smashed black saber though? If it was that mountain of the left in the scene just after the fight ended, then why is Ruler and black saber's master seemingly standing in the same position relative to both of them? Why is the area so undamaged compared to the over-the-top fighting that just happened? Especially the ground, considering someone was apparently smashed into it.

The entire fighting also happened in 40 seconds, which was way too quick and it jumped multiple times between the two characters, before they smashed into each other (this is starting to sound lewd lol), which is incredibly disorienting. I also don't know if their movements are supposed to be "lightning fast" or something, but their movements are so jerky that there's absolutely no fluidity in the fight scenes. Finally there's also many instances where their movements and abilities cause so much wind/dust/smoke/fire that you can see neither characters, followed by another super-quick/jerky movements, further killing the fluidity and any sense of immersion.

There's also episode 2 when red saber and her master was ambushed. Some of her fighting had the same jerking movement problem. There were scenes where all the animation was completely, then a bunch of red lightning flashes and the screen shakes around (presumably cause her slices are so fast you can't see them or something).

Tl;dr The animation is terrible. I stand by that because animation is not just about flashy details and explosion. The fight scenes were all over the place, had no fluidity, sometimes made no sense and "so quick that you can't see them move" is an bullshit excuse back in of not animating something. If flashy movements, effects and explosions in all there is to animation to you, then I've got nothing further to say.
Modified by BurningSpirit, Jul 22, 3:24 AM
I swear I'm not a lolicon.

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If you like my opinions, consider my YouTube channel , which would be better than me posting a 2000 word forum post.

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Jul 22, 12:13 PM

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xenovibe said:
lusyo said:
Are people really liking this unironically?
To be fair, so far it's still more bearable than the pretentious snoozefests that were Fate/Zero and Unlimited Boogers Works even though that's not saying much.

Then again, it's still a Type Moon series, so...

It's like expecting Key to write an earnest character driven drama that's not riddled with plot contrivances and forced/eye-rolling melodrama (aka it's not gonna happen).



Well yeah UBW is very much shiny pountless garbage.
Fate/Zero on the otherhand had a pulse, theme, great composition soundtrack and animation and have some really greatly written scenes and characters (Not Kiritsugu obv), not perfect but far from being bad.
And Key show aren't all like that but here it's just a matter of taste and how much melodrama is too much for you, if you like melo you'll love it, if you hate it then you'll hate em all. Most of key shows have at least one great moment if you can stomach heavy melodrama (Charlotte is either the best because it's so shit or the worse if you really cant handle to watch show ironically)

But all of these, at least, have, at least, a tiny bit of heart, character or a pulse, it might not be the kind of heart you're looking for but it is present.
Here it's just cash-grabbing lifeless exploitative otaku bullshit with awful direction animation writing charadesign and shot composition, it's just that awful

 
Jul 22, 4:22 PM

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lusyo said:
xenovibe said:
To be fair, so far it's still more bearable than the pretentious snoozefests that were Fate/Zero and Unlimited Boogers Works even though that's not saying much.

Then again, it's still a Type Moon series, so...

It's like expecting Key to write an earnest character driven drama that's not riddled with plot contrivances and forced/eye-rolling melodrama (aka it's not gonna happen).



Well yeah UBW is very much shiny pountless garbage.
Fate/Zero on the otherhand had a pulse, theme, great composition soundtrack and animation and have some really greatly written scenes and characters (Not Kiritsugu obv), not perfect but far from being bad.

They were both meaningless garbage that tried to pretend they had a deeper message than what they actually delivered. Apo at least is honest with what it is and isn't afraid to have some fun and show off its otaku pandering elements which is what Fate is all about anyway. Even the OST was boring, being your run-of-the-mill Kajiura composition that's filled with generic dramatic choirs.

lusyo said:

And Key show aren't all like that but here it's just a matter of taste and how much melodrama is too much for you, if you like melo you'll love it, if you hate it then you'll hate em all. Most of key shows have at least one great moment if you can stomach heavy melodrama (Charlotte is either the best because it's so shit or the worse if you really cant handle to watch show ironically)

Except that melodrama as a whole is terrible since it feels forced and exaggerated instead of coming off as genuine and this is heavily present in pretty much all of Key's works that I have come across. They're stories that serve no other purpose than to make you cry by virtue of the plot instead of being heartbreaking as a result of the human failings of the characters themselves (which is more realistic as a result). With a character like Nagisa, you can’t help but feel being arm-twisted into liking her as a result of who she is rather than being a character that has actually earned her status within the story.

An example of a slice of life/drama series that is actually decently crafted and appealing is Chika Umino's Honey & Clover since the story (and drama) came about as a result of the characters interacting among themselves, which comes off a lot more naturally than Key's horribly contrived plot driven tales.
Modified by xenovibe, Jul 22, 4:26 PM
 
Jul 22, 5:53 PM

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xenovibe said:
lusyo said:



Well yeah UBW is very much shiny pountless garbage.
Fate/Zero on the otherhand had a pulse, theme, great composition soundtrack and animation and have some really greatly written scenes and characters (Not Kiritsugu obv), not perfect but far from being bad.

They were both meaningless garbage that tried to pretend they had a deeper message than what they actually delivered. Apo at least is honest with what it is and isn't afraid to have some fun and show off its otaku pandering elements which is what Fate is all about anyway. Even the OST was boring, being your run-of-the-mill Kajiura composition that's filled with generic dramatic choirs.

lusyo said:

And Key show aren't all like that but here it's just a matter of taste and how much melodrama is too much for you, if you like melo you'll love it, if you hate it then you'll hate em all. Most of key shows have at least one great moment if you can stomach heavy melodrama (Charlotte is either the best because it's so shit or the worse if you really cant handle to watch show ironically)

Except that melodrama as a whole is terrible since it feels forced and exaggerated instead of coming off as genuine and this is heavily present in pretty much all of Key's works that I have come across. They're stories that serve no other purpose than to make you cry by virtue of the plot instead of being heartbreaking as a result of the human failings of the characters themselves (which is more realistic as a result). With a character like Nagisa, you can’t help but feel being arm-twisted into liking her as a result of who she is rather than being a character that has actually earned her status within the story.

An example of a slice of life/drama series that is actually decently crafted and appealing is Chika Umino's Honey & Clover since the story (and drama) came about as a result of the characters interacting among themselves, which comes off a lot more naturally than Key's horribly contrived plot driven tales.


I'm pleasantly surprised to have a respectful argument with someone on this website it's nice for a change so thanks for not being an asshole!

For UBW I totally agree, Zero, even if it is pointless for some, at least is decently written for the most part and has impact and stakes on top of great visuals, It tried to push the Fate franchise in another direction that does bot pander to otaku bs, I would argue that it is one of the best Yuki Kajiura soundtrack but i totally understand the dislikes for her craft that is almost always the same thing over and over again, probably because it was my firt time hearing a Kajiura soundtrack aha

For Clannad, It simply is for people who accept to be manipulated into feeling sad, that's the point of melodrama, to make you cry, and sometimes, often, very cheaply, and Key is definitely guilty of that no way around it, But at least, most key shows have a pulse, even if it's always more or less the same, it has a bit or a lot of heart, the visuals and soundtrack for example are really good in Clannad, The melodramatic scenes, even if they are guilty of being melodramatic and all that, are great AT being melodramatic, You just need to be someone who likes stuff like that and accept to be emotionally manipulated, Of course a greatly crafted human story has more impact, it is just the more over the top version of it, meant usually for entertainment and not deep storytelling, it's just a matter of different taste imo.

The real problem with Apo is that it is meaningless in every way possible and badly produced, Anyone can dislike Zero and Clannad but they atleast tried, they had ideas and themes, efforts and character even if it is not of the taste of everyone and if they failed to deliver for some people.
Apo just feel lifeless to me, Every scene, shot, chara design and directing choice feels like an attempt at making money, not making a good anime.
It just feels hollow and cynical to me, and not in a good way.
I prefer a bad show that tried than a bad show that is honest and blunt about being a cash-in.

 
Jul 22, 5:54 PM

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xenovibe said:
lusyo said:



Well yeah UBW is very much shiny pountless garbage.
Fate/Zero on the otherhand had a pulse, theme, great composition soundtrack and animation and have some really greatly written scenes and characters (Not Kiritsugu obv), not perfect but far from being bad.

They were both meaningless garbage that tried to pretend they had a deeper message than what they actually delivered. Apo at least is honest with what it is and isn't afraid to have some fun and show off its otaku pandering elements which is what Fate is all about anyway. Even the OST was boring, being your run-of-the-mill Kajiura composition that's filled with generic dramatic choirs.

lusyo said:

And Key show aren't all like that but here it's just a matter of taste and how much melodrama is too much for you, if you like melo you'll love it, if you hate it then you'll hate em all. Most of key shows have at least one great moment if you can stomach heavy melodrama (Charlotte is either the best because it's so shit or the worse if you really cant handle to watch show ironically)

Except that melodrama as a whole is terrible since it feels forced and exaggerated instead of coming off as genuine and this is heavily present in pretty much all of Key's works that I have come across. They're stories that serve no other purpose than to make you cry by virtue of the plot instead of being heartbreaking as a result of the human failings of the characters themselves (which is more realistic as a result). With a character like Nagisa, you can’t help but feel being arm-twisted into liking her as a result of who she is rather than being a character that has actually earned her status within the story.

An example of a slice of life/drama series that is actually decently crafted and appealing is Chika Umino's Honey & Clover since the story (and drama) came about as a result of the characters interacting among themselves, which comes off a lot more naturally than Key's horribly contrived plot driven tales.


Also thanks for the recommendation!

 
Jul 22, 10:18 PM

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@lusyo

I have absolutely no problem with shows that are over the top in nature, hell I thoroughly enjoyed my time Gurren Lagann. The series had its problems, sure but underneath all the ridiculous mecha action, old school homages and loud, manly speeches lies a heart that felt very genuine and human.

Can't say the same about any of the Key stuff though. Granted, like you said there were probably one or two scenes that some might consider as touching but you have to push through so much shit to get to it that it's simply not worth it in the end. It's kind of the same thing with the Fate series really, there are a few scenes within them that are decently done but the rest of it is complete and poorly executed tedium with a cast of uninteresting cannon fodder characters that you couldn't give less of a shit about.

Take Fate/Zero for example, the whole cast suffers from your typical Urobuchi syndrome of making them feel more like devices that act as mouthpieces for the message that it’s trying to convey rather than making them feel like living and breathing human beings (which the vast majority of greatly written characters consist of). It's a typical case of the plot forcing the author's own opinions on the audience. A good story wouldn't do that but rather allow both sides of the message to surface, and give room for the viewer to come to a decision about it. The visuals are also nothing really all that interesting or impressive when you look past the initial shine and flashiness. The characters move and act like lifeless robots and beneath the seldom action, there really isn't all that much to it in terms of merit.

lusyo said:
Every scene, shot, chara design and directing choice feels like an attempt at making money, not making a good anime.
That comment perfectly describes just about every Fate related anime adaptation I have seen so far, Zero included. Granted, a lot of it probably has to with the decisions of the production company and animation studio behind them rather than being a problem of its source material but hey, I don't have the time to read a 50 hours long convoluted fantasy dating sim and I simply don't care.
 
Jul 23, 6:19 AM

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xenovibe said:
@lusyo

I have absolutely no problem with shows that are over the top in nature, hell I thoroughly enjoyed my time Gurren Lagann. The series had its problems, sure but underneath all the ridiculous mecha action, old school homages and loud, manly speeches lies a heart that felt very genuine and human.

Can't say the same about any of the Key stuff though. Granted, like you said there were probably one or two scenes that some might consider as touching but you have to push through so much shit to get to it that it's simply not worth it in the end. It's kind of the same thing with the Fate series really, there are a few scenes within them that are decently done but the rest of it is complete and poorly executed tedium with a cast of uninteresting cannon fodder characters that you couldn't give less of a shit about.

Take Fate/Zero for example, the whole cast suffers from your typical Urobuchi syndrome of making them feel more like devices that act as mouthpieces for the message that it’s trying to convey rather than making them feel like living and breathing human beings (which the vast majority of greatly written characters consist of). It's a typical case of the plot forcing the author's own opinions on the audience. A good story wouldn't do that but rather allow both sides of the message to surface, and give room for the viewer to come to a decision about it. The visuals are also nothing really all that interesting or impressive when you look past the initial shine and flashiness. The characters move and act like lifeless robots and beneath the seldom action, there really isn't all that much to it in terms of merit.

lusyo said:
Every scene, shot, chara design and directing choice feels like an attempt at making money, not making a good anime.
That comment perfectly describes just about every Fate related anime adaptation I have seen so far, Zero included. Granted, a lot of it probably has to with the decisions of the production company and animation studio behind them rather than being a problem of its source material but hey, I don't have the time to read a 50 hours long convoluted fantasy dating sim and I simply don't care.


Yeah, key shows usually takes to much time to get good, Clannad is great mostly only for the Second part of After Story so yeah totally agree

I didn' t feel like all characters were guilty of that in Zero, Waver and Iskandar were probably the best written characters imo, This is mostly true for Archer, Kiritsugu and Kirei i Think.

And for the visuals sure they're not perfect but they have flare and some great animation pieces (Saber's first Excalibur moment or Kirei vs Kiritsugu, i also remember very expressive animation for the psycho guy) It's mostly that it's an almost 5 years old Fate anime and it looks stellar compared to the uglyness of Apo

I'm definitely not reading the VN too aha

 
Jul 23, 6:29 PM

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My gosh that sounded terrible. They overdid the distortion trying to make it sound "loud".

Boring except for the bits of action. I'm getting closer to dropping this.
 
Aug 30, 1:53 AM

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nice prelude battle between the red lancer against Black Saber, short, but intense!!!
Hello, my litte boy!



 
Sep 25, 2:20 PM

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So that's the homunculus who will turn to be the MC...why? It was so good like it was...
 
Oct 5, 12:45 PM

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The narrative scheme is quite unpredictable, this makes the vision of the episode much more interesting, but the atmosphere is somewhat overwhelming. The characters, unfortunately, do not enjoy the same characterization, but for now it is not a fundamental problem. Drawings and animations, good.
 
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