Bernrika said: I see no argument here. Moving along.mimiiria said: So you're calling some writers bigots then? Nice job covering your own ass after you got busted for being biased. And you're free to believe Victor is gay, just like I'm free to believe he's not. We can agree to disagree on that ^^ I know you are trying to pull the "She's actually the TRUE bigot" card, but it really falls flat. (I can tell because with the use of "triggered", "tumblr" and "did it hurt your feeling" you are posting like a youtube commenter reject) Sorry, I deal with shitposting everyday, so you'll have to try harder. The only thing you are accomplishing is looking like a lunatic because you can't tell real life people from characters being written by a person. |
mimiiria said: I see no argument here. Moving along. *yawn* gave the impression that you think certain types of behavior automatically make a person a homosexual. Certain behaviors do make a character homosexual. Because, believe or not, homosexual 1) exist 2) some people like to write about them. The most obvious example is that a dude showing attraction or flirting with another dude is most likely homosexual. Don't you agree? Or do you simply believe it is not possible for them to exist? I mean, ironically, you seem to pretty bigot yourself: If they date a person of the same sex, or kiss/have sex with one and it's not some drunken accident or tripping on the other's face. Or if they just state that they're gay. Otherwise I don't care, and automatically assume them to be straight because heterosexuality is more common than homosexuality. Literally unable to accept some people could be gay. Literally unable to accept some characters could be written as gay. You could never accept Yuuri is gay because he doesn't perform any explicit homosexual acts on screen (that fit your standards, because Yuuri is either bi or straight up gay). It doesn't matter how much the narrative tells you he's in love with Victor or frame them as romantic. Simply speaking, you don't seem to think gay people could possibly exist or that anyone could enjoy writing about them in a non-BL story. But hey, enjoy calling other people bigots while you don't even understand what they are trying to tell you and (pretend to?) misinterpret facts. Yet I'm supposedly the "lunatic" here. Well, only one of us would accidentally marry their best friend, and that it's not me. You also seem to think anime characters are real? Or can't tell the difference between a character being written and a real person. I'm not the one who started bitching at a person who dared to have a different opinion. I never told you not to ship Yuuri and Victor, all I did was defend my viewpoint that their ship is not canon, and that it is all up to the interpretation of the viewer Welcome to the Internet. You post stuff, people will challenge your viewpoint. |
BernrikaJun 5, 2017 5:10 PM
| Anime guys could be legit sucking each other's balls and people would still be like "they're not gay! Uh,.. power of friendship!!" See No. 6 where they literally make out on screen multiple times and people somehow find it capable to say "it's not shounen ai". And the best irony is every time a new show is announced that has a dude (or, heaven forbid, multiple dudes) on the cover art instead of some girl attached to a pair of breasts, the cries of "yaoi!!!" are nonstop. |
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Bernrika said: You should've said from the start that you're an expert on homosexuality. What are your qualifications? Watching a handful of fujobait series?gave the impression that you think certain types of behavior automatically make a person a homosexual. Certain behaviors do make a character homosexual. Because, believe or not, homosexual 1) exist 2) some people like to write about them.The most obvious example is that a dude showing attraction or flirting with another dude is most likely homosexual. Don't you agree? Or do you simply believe it is not possible for them to exist? I mean, ironically, you seem to pretty bigot yourself: If they date a person of the same sex, or kiss/have sex with one and it's not some drunken accident or tripping on the other's face. Or if they just state that they're gay. Otherwise I don't care, and automatically assume them to be straight because heterosexuality is more common than homosexuality. Literally unable to accept some people could be gay. Literally unable to accept some characters could be written as gay. You could never accept Yuuri is gay because he doesn't perform any explicit homosexual acts on screen (that fit your standards, because Yuuri is either bi or straight up gay). It doesn't matter how much the narrative tells you he's in love with Victor or frame them as romantic. Simply speaking, you don't seem to think gay people could possibly exist or that anyone could enjoy writing about them in a non-BL story. But hey, enjoy calling other people bigots while you don't even understand what they are trying to tell you and (pretend to?) misinterpret facts. Yet I'm supposedly the "lunatic" here. Well, only one of us would accidentally marry their best friend, and that it's not me. You also seem to think anime characters are real? Or can't tell the difference between a character being written and a real person. You just said in a previous paragraph that I supposedly misinterpret others, yet you claim that I think fictional characters are real. I recommend some self-reflection on that. All I have said that fictional characters are made to behave like real-life people, so that they're easier to relate to. I'm sorry if I worded that in a way that's too complicated for you to understand. |
| LOL Yuuri in love with Yuuko? That's funny. He literally called her cute once and she's married. Their future is over, however, Yuuri and Victor share intimate moments together and they're just "friends". Funny shit. It doesn't matter though, because the director has said that their relationship is "ai" and that Yuuri literally fell in love with Victor, but cool I guess her words don't matter because its ""bait""". By the way, Yuuri could've returned the rings if he wanted to, the reciept said wedding rings in English and he's pretty fluent. |
scarredfiendJun 5, 2017 6:20 PM
mimiiria said: you should've said from the start that you're an expert on homosexuality. That's actually is called having a basic understanding of human behaviors. Which isn't even related to homosexuality in particular, here, I'll show you: Certain behaviors do make a character heterosexual. Because, believe or not, heterosexual 1) exist 2) some people like to write about them. The most obvious example is that a dude showing attraction or flirting with a girl is most likely heterosexual. Don't you agree? Or do you simply believe it is not possible for them to exist? Today we learned: When a person likes another person, he or she will act differently toward him or her and you will be able to tell his or her sexual orientation. It's even easier with anime because the characters are not real and exist in a narrative, therefor they are often written in a way that tells you stuff about them. It's like when you start Toradora and you immediately know Taiga is going to end up with Ryuuji because she's a shitty tsundere voiced by teh Rie in a romantic comedy. |
BernrikaJun 5, 2017 6:42 PM
Bernrika said: So if I act differently around Friend A than around Friend B, that means that I must have the hots for one of them? And you're telling me that I don't supposedly understand human behavior, when you yourself make such bizarre claims.Certain behaviors do make a character heterosexual. Because, believe or not, heterosexual 1) exist 2) some people like to write about them. The most obvious example is that a dude showing attraction or flirting with a girl is most likely heterosexual. Don't you agree? Or do you simply believe it is not possible for them to exist? Today we learned: When a person likes another person, he or she will act differently toward him or her and you will be able to tell his or her sexual orientation. It's even easier with anime because the characters are not real and exist in a narrative, therefor they are often written in a way that tells you stuff about them. Maneki-Mew said: You're free to think that Yuuri knew he was buying a romantic gift instead of a friendly gift. I'm free to see it the other way. Yamamoto and Kubo haven't stated anything about the rings that'd confirm them to be romantic engagement rings, so every fan is free to make their own judgement.mimiiria said: Yuuri didn't realize he purchased wedding rings, he just saw a pair of nice-looking jewellery and bought them. It's not weird at all to make a mistake like that in a foreign country where they speak a language you don't understand. Also they didn't "give an impression" of anything, they just wore rings. Is the act of wearing a ring suddenly equal to fooling people into thinking you're married? Can I not wear rings if I'm not married/engaged? No, no, no. XD As I said, he's not a child. Japanese people do also know the concept of wedding rings as far as I know and no grown-up man is THAT dense to make such a mistake like "Oooh, it's shiny. I want to give Victor a beautiful, shiny thing!" XD Nothing in the story shows us that he's mentally ... backward? ^^", nor is he an alien, who never had seen how people marry their s/o. So he knows what expensive rings are for. Even IF he feels platonic love for Victor, he should know about the symbol of rings. I mean, your theory gets ad absurdum. Like I have mentioned before, people aren't that unique. You suppose that adult human brains (of people with an average to high intelligence) are on the same basic level. And, like I said before, wearing rings or even gifting them isn't the same thing as getting engaged/married. Marriage requires a mutual agreement on paper, and engagement requires at least a verbal agreement. No such thing happened in YOI, just Victor making a joke when people misunderstood the meaning of their rings. |
Maneki-Mew said: Why? Because I'm not interested in the Victor/Yuuri ship, that's all there is to it. I can appreciate them as interesting characters, but because it's not my type of ship I don't see what you want to see. If there are characters that I don't enjoy as a ship, then I see them as just friends, and that goes for every anime I watch and not just YOI. Unless they're canonically made to be a couple, like by having them agree on dating, or starting a family, or if the creator states that they're into each other etc. Then I'm just like "okay, they're together, good for them" and that's that.So uhm... no. ^^" It's kind of "I just don't see, want I don't want to see", if you want mutual agreement on papers to make some obvious things real. Of course you are free to see everything like you wish to see. I just can't understand why. I'm not really a "shipper". I do have a few ships that I really like, and I read doujins of them and search for fanart etc. However, what I would never do is tell other people to see the characters my way and that they're wrong if they disagree. I may not like their point of view, but I'm adult enough to respect people's different views and tastes. Because, after all, it's just fictional characters in a Japanese cartoon. And why do you need to think that people, who are saying "Hey, those things are a clear sign of love between two same-sex people" some crazy Fujoshis or uhm like other LGBT-persons, who are unable to see heterosexual things anywhere. There are plenty of heterosexual ships I love, like or just accept, because it's obvious and (nearly) canon and there are some homosexual canon / mostly canon ships, which are meeh to me, because ... different reasons like characters or dynamics. and I don't know what gave you the impression that I do. Where did I say anything like that? Btw, you asked me about Ymir and Christa, especially for Ymir's feeling towards Christa, as far as I can remember. I honestly don't know, I haven't given SnK ships much thought. Isn't the most important thing that they're all happy, whether the relationship is brotherly/sisterly or platonic or romantic?So, because Mikasa acts almost the same towards Eren as Ymir acts towards Christa: Don't you think, it could be just friendship from Mikasa's side, too? I mean, she didn't even say she fell for him, she didn't confess, she isn't even a person, who blushes around him and not the girl to act all cute. How could you know...? XD Maybe he could be like a brother to her and she is a over-protetective and loving adoptive sister ...? No, before you mention I can't see heterosexual things: I'm not blind. I can see this - and like this btw. Addentionally, I can also see that Eren cares, but not in that way (yet? I don't know). So, yes, there is a big playground to differentiate. And if something seems obvious in a straight couple, surprise, homosexual people act the same way and those signs aren't more difficult to read. Just look how people still ship Naruto and Sakura even though Naruto and Hinata are already canon according to the manga. Uhm let's see another pair I love (Yeeeeah I see heterosexual things, it's one of my OTPs actually tho xD): What series is that from? Doesn't ring a bell.I mean, it's absolutely normal to think that your close (male) friend smells so good more than once and all and then you blush a little and get nervous and... They never confirmed that Hiyori... who actually believes that? :X |
Maneki-Mew said: When it's confirmed canon, then I'll regard it as canon. Before that, I don't mind people shipping it but they're just not a couple to me. We can just agree to disagree on that.mimiiria said: Why? Because I'm not interested in the Victor/Yuuri ship, that's all there is to it. I can appreciate them as interesting characters, but because it's not my type of ship I don't see what you want to see. If there are characters that I don't enjoy as a ship, then I see them as just friends, and that goes for every anime I watch and not just YOI. Unless they're canonically made to be a couple, like by having them agree on dating, or starting a family, or if the creator states that they're into each other etc. Then I'm just like "okay, they're together, good for them" and that's that. I'm not really a "shipper". I do have a few ships that I really like, and I read doujins of them and search for fanart etc. However, what I would never do is tell other people to see the characters my way and that they're wrong if they disagree. I may not like their point of view, but I'm adult enough to respect people's different views and tastes. Because, after all, it's just fictional characters in a Japanese cartoon. It's perfectly okay to not be "a shipper", but well... you can be not fond of a ship and still see what's going on there. ^^" mimiiria said: I somewhat agree, however since the majority of people are heterosexuals, people are more eager to assume that a close girl and boy are a couple, than a boy and a boy or a girl and a girl. It's just a matter of likeliness. I don't view it that way. Many times, it really has some vibes of "I don't have anything against gay people BUT ... I don't want them in my anime / other fictional work", you know. That's even fine with me, if the whole thing is a romance in the main genre and nothing else. But not with a character with the romance as (maybe very important) subplot just happens to be gay and maybe gets in same-sex relationship ... and people say: Naaaah, I'm blind, sorry. XD Okay, maybe it's not you, I can't decide it for you, but it gets very suspicious when people see those guys even kissing and are still saying: they are just bros. XD They just don't want to see, because they wanna get things straight (bad pun intended). And romances begin long before a kiss with more subtle, or not subtle from my point of view, hints. |
mimiiria said: You're assuming that everyone who doesn't have the same taste as you are bigoted again. But even if they prefer straight couples, is that bad? Many fujos prefer homo couples, but nobody calls them bigoted for ignoring straight couples. So why is it somehow think it's bigoted the other way around? Read what that poster said. He's not talking about liking or disliking (Or rather preference), but denying. Most fujos don't deny straight couples, so the comparison falls flat. They may dislike Naruto and Hinata (And that's not only fujos), but they don't argue Naruto and Hinata are not straight and secretly into other people (Except some morons I guess). If Naruto and Hinata don't work for you, think of another pair in a romantic setup. (I don't know, Hak and Yona) Or think visual novel couples. I prefer Okabe (Male) with Christina (Female) and not with Mayuri (Also Female), but I don't deny Mayuri's ending frame them as romantic. Or deny they are capable of feeling attraction toward each other. With gay couples is always "They are not a couple and also t-totally not gay. Can't two guys just be friends these days?". Can you guess why? All fujobait series are full of "hints", but hints do not equal canon. Otherwise no series aimed at girls would have straight men, and they'd all be "canonically" gay for each other. YoI doesn't have "hints". It has another dude declaring his love for another dude multiple times, it has a dude reaching the sexual awakening through another dude, it has two dudes who are touchy in ways not even most straight couples are. It has the produces and the director using the romantic word for "love" for them. The show even puts official marriage art for them. The ending is two dude skating together at an Italian romantic song. There is hardly any reason to assume they are straight. People don't call "homophobe" and "bigot" random people, they do it when people like you see stuff blatantly gay and deny what's happening on screen because they are uncomfortable with it. Do you know homophobia is a thing and people don't want to be associated with gay stuff, right? There has been no confirmed kiss in YOI, as it may have been only a hug. Also, Naruto and Sasuke kissed yet people generally consider them to be straight and not a couple. You suck at false equivalence. Naruto and Sasuke fell on the top of each other by mistake and looked disgusted. You are supposed to find it funny. Yuuri and Victor shocked and embarrassed the audience and gazed into each other's eyes. So even a kiss doesn't make two people into a couple. Of course. Even if Victor and Yuri had kissed explicitly, people would just do this:  "They are not gayyyyy. Lalala, I'm not listening" |
BernrikaJun 6, 2017 10:49 AM
| 'Most fujos don't deny straight ships.' ->Spent 2 and a half pages trying to deny the straight interpretation of YOI. Seems legit. I can't believe this circular argument is still continuing. I haven't seen the show so I don't care about taking sides regarding which ship is more based in reality (altho a female/fujo friend of mine who I trust says it's all up to interpretation/unconfirmed like @mimiiria even tho she strongly ships the two guys). But even without taking sides for one of the ships it's clear to see that between 'It's up to interpretation, people can ship what they want, I happen to see it that way.' and 'Everyone has to agree with my interpretation or I'll call them bigot, homophobe and worse' only one of you is making an ass out of yourself by being intolerant and unaccepting and forcing their perspective on others. I don't need to see the show to see that. There's generally no right or wrong about interpretations. Either you see it one way, or the other. You can try and make your position understood but at some point you just gotta agree to disagree. That point was 2 pages ago. And just because it's about homosexuality doesn't make you automatically be the nice and open-minded one btw. Not in this context. Like, I'm quick to call people homophobes myself but only when they say shit like a show being unwatchable garbage because it happens to have gayness or hints of gayness in it, implying that any amount of gayness ruins a show to the point of no return. Not seeing a ship has nothing to do with anything like that tho. It's just about shipping. This is even worse than when I didn't think of Hibike as a yuri show at all and dared to voice my legitimate surprise about people being disappointed and raging because it didn't go down that route since I never once thought about the show like that while watching it. Shippers in general can bring down the wrath of god upon you if you disagree with them but it seems some gay shippers are one level above everyone else when it comes to passion and the urge to have your ship be seen as canon by everyone in the world even if you have to throw out insults for 20 posts and seem like an obsessed person who gets angry at the mere existence of different perspectives. To each their own I guess. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: 'Most fujos don't deny straight ships.' ->Spent 2 and a half pages trying to deny the straight interpretation of YOI. There are no straight ships in Yuri on Ice. What am I denying? The only female character you could argue Yuuri had a romantic interest is his childhood friend who is married to his best friend, has 3 daughters and is irrelevant. And that's because he blushed and called her cute once. She's literally not a ship and she doesn't have presence in the story. Actually there isn't even much "shipping" in YoI. Yuri and Victor are attached to the hip, you can accept they love each other or don't. I haven't seen the show ... ok. Everyone has to agree with my interpretation or I'll call them bigot, homophobe and worse' Ok, you seem reasonable so I'm going to try to argue with you. We are not talking about Free or Kuroko plays with his balls, show that blatantly fujobait and ultimately don't say much about about the characters' sexualities. No one is going to call you an homophobe if you think Free is straight or ship Haru with Gou. I also think TG fangirls are fucking nuts and delusional because Touka was clearly the main heroine and Kaneki was clearly straight. We are talking about a phenomenon that happens every time a show is 1) blatantly gay 2) is not marketed as a BL 3) The "homo" is unannounced. As @Red_Keys said , every time this happens you see people going to hell and back to deny the gay. Here, let me show you again: People are not stupid, we know why people do this. You don't watch two dudes kiss and confess and think of ways they could be straight, unless you don't want gay stuff in your "normal" shows. Heck, you have Shinsekai yori among your favorites, haven't you? Remember how people reacted to Episode 7? Literally "not in my normal show!" Of course SSY was far too explicit too deny, but it does show how some people think. Ultimately, we all know that if Victor was a girl no one would dare to say the show is "ambiguous" or "baiting" even if the plot was literally the same. Shippers in general can bring down the wrath of god upon you if you disagree with them but it seems some gay shippers are one level above everyone else when it comes to passion and the urge to have your ship be seen as canon by everyone I mean... are you implying people dismiss straight ships the same way they do with gay ships? Because even though you may think I'm a fujoshi, I ship literally everything, and I can't tell you no one dismisses gay ships (Both Yuri and Yaoi) the same way they do with straight ships. |
BernrikaJun 6, 2017 12:06 PM
Bernrika said: What is there to deny exactly? The ship between Victor and Yuuri is heavily baited, but it's not canon.mimiiria said: You're assuming that everyone who doesn't have the same taste as you are bigoted again. But even if they prefer straight couples, is that bad? Many fujos prefer homo couples, but nobody calls them bigoted for ignoring straight couples. So why is it somehow think it's bigoted the other way around? Read what that poster said. He's not talking about liking or disliking (Or rather preference), but denying. With gay couples is always "They are not a couple and also t-totally not gay. Can't two guys just be friends these days?". Can you guess why? and disagreeing about a ship being canon doesn't count as homophobia to me. If it does to you then go write that angry blog about me. All fujobait series are full of "hints", but hints do not equal canon. Otherwise no series aimed at girls would have straight men, and they'd all be "canonically" gay for each other. YoI doesn't have "hints". It has another dude declaring his love for another dude multiple times, it has a dude reaching the sexual awakening through another dude, Yes, Victor helped Yuuri to get into the role. Newsflash: that's what coaches are for. it has two dudes who are touchy in ways not even most straight couples are. Yes, skinship. That's not a thing limited to romantic love. It has the produces and the director using the romantic word for "love" for them. They don't write the plot. The show even puts official marriage art for them. Guys in wedding suits is a common way to advertise fujobait shows to girls in magazines. It's fan service, nothing more. The ending is two dude skating together at an Italian romantic song. Wow, a skater skating in an anime about skating. It's not unheard of for skaters to skate to a romantic song. As long as the song fits the choreography, they can skate to almost whatever. There is hardly any reason to assume they are straight. Most people on this planet are heterosexual, so yes there is reason to assume they're straight. Statistically, only about 1 in 10 people are homosexuals.People don't call "homophobe" and "bigot" random people, they do it when people like you see stuff blatantly gay and deny what's happening on screen because they are uncomfortable with it. Do you know homophobia is a thing and people don't want to be associated with gay stuff, right? There has been no confirmed kiss in YOI, as it may have been only a hug. Also, Naruto and Sasuke kissed yet people generally consider them to be straight and not a couple. You suck at false equivalence. Naruto and Sasuke fell on the top of each other by mistake and looked disgusted. You are supposed to find it funny. Yuuri and Victor shocked and embarrassed the audience and gazed into each other's eyes. So even a kiss doesn't make two people into a couple. Of course. Even if Victor and Yuri had kissed explicitly, people would just do this: "They are not gayyyyy. Lalala, I'm not listening" Since this conversation has devolved into repeating the same points over and over again, I'm feeling like it's just impossible to get my point across to you. So could you come up with new arguments for a change? I have proven you wrong so many times though, so maybe there's nothing left for you to say. |
Maneki-Mew said: In that case, please stop generalizing all people who disagree with you as bigots. Of course there will always be jerks online, but you have to learn to see that they're just a loud minority.mimiiria said: You're assuming that everyone who doesn't have the same taste as you are bigoted again. But even if they prefer straight couples, is that bad? Many fujos prefer homo couples, but nobody calls them bigoted for ignoring straight couples. So why is it somehow think it's bigoted the other way around? I'm not assuming this of taste or small queer-pandering-hints. I assume this, because some said so and people, who act like that they ignore gay pairings as long as they can. Eh and yeah, I haven't seen a single straight thing in Yuri On Ice. XD Oh wait that girl trying to date some guy. I saw that. In my point of view YOI is like Free but taken into further extremes, or "how gay can we go without being canon gay". I see it as them teasing the audience in any way possible. I remember watching the show week by week, and being surprised by how they managed to make it more and more pandering each episode. Lewd onsen scenes and awkward blushes, one after another. YOI may have failed in some aspects like animation, but in terms of fanservice and homobaiting they are absolute kings. |
mimiiria said: They don't write the plot. Actually they do, not only the producer is the one that has the final word on anything, but Sayo, the director, closely worked with Kubo (the writer), YoI is literally their lovechild, so to speak. Even Kubo herself was surprised by some things in the anime because Sayo was the one who ultimately ended up delivering the product and directing stuff. Sayo and Otsuka have been pretty blatant about Yuri and Victor being in love, and even Kubo herself stated that "Yuri's skating was powerful enough to make Victor fall in love" and whatnot multiple times. You would have more ground if this was a manga, but alas... Again, I haven't watched No. 6 is it's no point in bringing it up over and over again. Oh, I wasn't bringing it for you, I just wanted to show people how delusional people like you are and how this is a repeating phenomenon: Wow, a skater skating in an anime about skating. It's not unheard of for skaters to skate to a romantic song. As long as the song fits the choreography, they can skate to almost whatever. Yuuri specified that it's not romantic love. Go watch that interview again if you don't believe me. Yes, skinship. That's not a thing limited to romantic love. Guys in wedding suits is a common way to advertise fujobait shows to girls in magazines. It's fan service, nothing more. Blatant misinterpretations, downplaying stuff, dismissing stuff as "fujobait", etc. How am I uncomfortable with homosexuality, when my manga list is full of BL? If I couldn't stand homos, I wouldn't be reading love stories about them. Just because you met some ignorant yuri-fan doesn't mean that every fan of BL is bigoted until proven innocent. I dunno, maybe you are fine with fetishizing them, but unconformable with the thought of someone "average" or "in a normal show" could be gay"? I'm not the one downplaying the homo, so I cannot understand you. Maybe you are like those guys who whack themselves to lesbian porn and then are against LGBT people. Happens. Most people on this planet are heterosexual, so yes there is reason to assume they're straight. Statistically, only about 1 in 10 people are homosexuals. Most people aren't into incest, and yet every LN in the last 10 years or so has incest. What are you even arguing with it? There is nothing in real life that dictates the sexuality of fictional characters. Except the writers. Not to mention I'm not sure what this post is implying. Only one character in YoI is gay? Two gay characters are unrealistic? What? I don't think you know how statics work. More so, again, those are not people, they are anime characters. If the author enjoy writing gay romance, she will write gay romance, statistics be damned. People love to bitch about how "fujoshi" are everywhere, but they cannot understand or comprehend that someone would like to write gay romance. I find it pretty mystifying, to be honest. homobaiting they are absolute kings. There is no homobait in YoI however, people are satisfied with their 12 episodes same sex romance. Some people are bitter or don't want to see it, but it doesn't mean those who enjoyed it feel "baited". I certainly don't. Please stop assuming I or YoI fans in general feel baited. |
BernrikaJun 6, 2017 2:00 PM
Bernrika said: Care to give me sources? It's not uncommon for fanatic fujos to interpret statements of the creators in their own way, and I don't think I trust your judgement.mimiiria said: Actually they do, not only the producer is the one that has the final word on anything, but Sayo, the director, closely worked with Kubo (the writer), YoI is literally their lovechild, so to speak. Even Kubo herself was surprised by some things in the anime because Sayo was the one who ultimately ended up delivering the product and directing stuff.They don't write the plot. Sayo and Otsuka have been pretty blatant about Yuri and Victor being in love, and even Kubo herself stated that "Yuri's skating was powerful enough to make Victor fall in love" and whatnot multiple times. Blatant misinterpretations, downplaying stuff, dismissing stuff as "fujobait", etc. and they can interpret it the way they want. It's not 1984, people are allowed to think freely. Or were you grown in some dictatorship or under an oppressive regime to make you think that way? Not once have you bothered to ask me why I don't see Yuuri and Victor as a couple. So I'll explain it to you. It is NOT because I just happen to dislike gays and all the bs that you've accused me of. I just don't see them as a couple, because to me the baiting is more enjoyable than having a canon couple. I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way about fujobait. I had a ton of fun watching YOI even though I don't think it's that good of a show. The reason I had fun was because the baiting was so over-the-top and thrilling. You never knew what they'd come up with the next episode. Maybe more nudity? Maybe they'll have their faces awkwardly close to each other? Maybe they have more nice scenes of bromance? That's all super fun to me, and that's why I watch fujobait shows. However, having a settled canon couple is the opposite of fun. I mean sure, they can look cute together, but I mostly just want them to go get a room and be happy elsewhere. In YOI you can choose to see them either as a couple or as close friends and and as a team (at least so far, season 2 might change things). I choose to see the latter, because it suits my tastes better. So why should I ruin my viewing experience by forcing myself to think that they're totally a couple? Why? Maybe you are like those guys who whack themselves to lesbian porn and then are against LGBT people. Happens. There is nothing in real life that dictates the sexuality of fictional characters. Except the writers. Not to mention I'm not sure what this post is implying. Only one character in YoI is gay? Two gay characters are unrealistic? What? I'm talking about assumptions. Most people are rational beings who use math and logic to guess things that are unknown to them. So if Yuuri and Victor are not introduced as gay characters, a normal person will make an assumption that they're likely straight characters.There is no homobait in YoI Yuuri's and Victor's relationship aside, what about that Swiss guy who squeezed Yuuri's ass? Or Yuuri smacking Minami's ass? Granted, "homobait" is not exactly a term that you'd find from an English dictionary, but at least according to how online fujoshi communities use that word, YOI is some prime homobait. |
mimiiria said: Care to give me sources? Try Aki_the_geek on twitter, she translated stuff. There are like a dozen of interviews, even the kiss scene interview isn't ambiguous at all. Personally I think it is pointless, the show was pretty explicit and hardly subtle. As Otsuka said, the scenes left very little to the imagination and he wasn't afraid to make people uncomfortable. It's not uncommon for fanatic fujos to interpret statements of the creators in their own way, and I don't think I trust your judgement. I don't even fit your definition of fujoshi, I don't ship people because they are gay, I ship them because I enjoy them. Do you want some of my straight OTP? Or would you prefer my Yuri ones? "Misinterpretations"? It's a Japanese cartoon, not some important legal document. Entertainment can be consumed the way a person themselves likes it, and they can interpret it the way they want. It's not 1984, people are allowed to think freely. Or were you grown in some dictatorship or under an oppressive regime to make you think that way? Yes, those kinds of people exist. I however am not like that, though me saying that obviously won't convince certain types of paranoid fujoshis, so I might as well just say nothing. I wonder why those paranoid fujoshi are so keen on witch-hunting people who dare to enjoy BL or GL in a different way that they do? Do you have any theory on that Bernrika? After all, it's just anime and manga, and people are normally let to enjoy those the way they please, as long as they don't cause harm to others. So you think every interpretation is correct? Do you think the fujoshi who rattled about TG 125 are right then? Do you think Naruto and Sakura shippers who think Hinata is abusive have a leg to stand on? There is a difference between "My headcanon is this" compared to "This is what happened in the show". No one cares about the first, but people are going to debate you on the second one, especially when it's the usual no-homo reaction we have seen dozen of times in many shows. I'm talking about assumptions. Most people are rational beings who use math and logic to guess things that are unknown to them. So if Yuuri and Victor are not introduced as gay characters, a normal person will make an assumption that they're likely straight characters. OK, Yeah, no. Most people don't look at Yuri and Victor and think they are straight. In the first episodes maybe (And even then some people joked that he had way too many Victor's posters), but the more the anime progressed, harder it became to deny it. YoI after all became famous for being "That show with the gay romance that stopped baiting", everyone talked about it. Was everyone on crazy pills? Famous Skaters praised it because of it. Even in Japan, preorders spiked massively when the show romance actually progressed. I know what you are going to say. "Fujobait sells." You know Free, don't you? It is a show with a massive amount fujobait, high production values and with many more ships than YoI, but it sold like half of Yuri on Like. The average fujobait sport anime sells around 10.000 copies. Even if you think Yuri and Victor are straight, I hope you at least understand you are the minority. They way they act around each other communicate only one thing to most of the audience. The audience doesn't need to hear "I'm gay" to understand the, uh, gay guys on screen are gay. Yuuri's and Victor's relationship aside, what about that Swiss guy who squeezed Yuuri's ass? Or Yuuri smacking Minami's ass? Granted, "homobait" is not exactly a term that you'd find from an English dictionary, but at least according to how online fujoshi communities use that word, YOI is some prime homobait. What about a couple of random moments? I don't know. Most people are satisfied with Victor and Yuuri's relationship and we feel like the show delivered far beyond our expectations. |
Bernrika said: So I browsed her twitter for like 30 min and couldn't find anything that you mentioned. Just something about drawing nipples, and Yamamoto's interview. It's so full of retweets that it's taking forever to scroll down. So if you wouldn't mind finding a better source, or those specific tweets if you want to make a point? Btw I liked this quote from Yamamoto, it pretty much depicts how I see YOI:mimiiria said: Care to give me sources? Try Aki_the_geek on twitter, she translated stuff. There are like a dozen of interviews, even the kiss scene interview isn't ambiguous at all. Personally I think it is pointless, the show was pretty explicit and hardly subtle. As Otsuka said, the scenes left very little to the imagination and he wasn't afraid to make people uncomfortable. "Yamamoto: Relationships labeled with words like "lovers" or "family" are stifling - so I wanted to draw a bond not bound by such names." So you think every interpretation is correct? Do you think the fujoshi who rattled about TG 125 are right then? Do you think Naruto and Sakura shippers who think Hinata is abusive have a leg to stand on? I wouldn't use the word "correct", but every interpretation of fictitious entertainment is at least allowed.Those Tokyo Ghoul fujos can continue to ship their homoship even if the MC had sex with a girl (I just wish they'd stop with the death threats). The fun thing about fandoms is that everyone can have their own view on the relationships. Of course some ships are only hinted via baiting, and some ships are crushed by canon, but even still people can make up their own stories of the original series. There is a difference between "My headcanon is this" compared to "This is what happened in the show". No one cares about the first, but people are going to debate you on the second one, especially when it's the usual no-homo reaction we have seen dozen of times in many shows. Why is it so bad to have a no-homo reaction to a series that's only bait and no canon homo? If they're rude about it, then of course it's unfortunate. However that doesn't invalidate their viewpoint.Even if you think Yuri and Victor are straight, I hope you at least understand you are the minority. I totally do, and I'm not here to convert people into discarding their opinion. I'm just here to explain why I don't count YOI as a yaoi anime.What about a couple of random moments? That's what baiting often is. Random moments.Also, you completely ignored my question in the previous post. So I'll repeat the question until you answer it. Why should I ruin my viewing experience by forcing myself to think that they're totally a couple? |
Maneki-Mew said: I don't mean to sound cold, but I don't care what the LGBT people think. Apparently many people in the LGBT community see some BL clichés as problematic, and that they don't depict homosexual relations realistically. But to me they're good entertainment, so I will continue to consume them. All I'm doing is watching and reading fiction. I'm not hurting anyone by doing that.To be honest, it gets on my nerves sometimes, because that behavior gets on the nerve of LGBT-people sometimes. I hope you can understand this from my point of view. Most gay relationships are just in Girls or Boys Love manga and anime canon and most of them are Slice of Life romances, which are clearly directed to fujoshis and not to the general and more wide ranged audience. |
mimiiria said: So if you wouldn't mind finding a better source, or those specific tweets if you want to make a point? Jeez, I don't know: Right around that time, I heard that some athletes have a mentality that they “skate for the sake of their love.” In this case, it seemed that the “love” they were referring to would probably be a lover, and even if they’re not together, as long as they think about their significant other, they can do their best and would show results because of that. When I realized this, Director Yamamoto and I felt like we were struck by lightning, as we were completely shocked! Personally, I have never written such a direct story where love is the thing that drives [the character], if I want to challenge myself and create a story like that, I thought, the best chance would be with this anime. The sport of figure skating itself deals with various themes, as a work of fiction, if combining the theme of sports and love is the right choice, then it is the right choice. Yuuri Katsuki does not skate just for his own love, but with Victor in the picture, all of his love is shown with his skating, and because of that, he is able to have a strong resolve to try and get the gold medal. I think that we were able to pinpoint this in the anime. Otsuka: They completed each other and what's more, they found a new path to follow ahead of them. Yuuri said he had no name to describe this feeling and I think it captures the nature of their relationship really well. Calling it love is a wonderful way of putting it, but I think they already went above even that. It is a relationship where they push each other in the best direction. Before the Grand Prix Final, in the last episode featuring characters in their normal daily lives, we went for an episode without any skating scenes at all, just a really relaxed story, while introducing the competitors. Ultimately, though, there was a surging development, and in the end, no one wound up being able to relax whatsoever. Apparently the animators had quite a difficult time as well. The ring that Yuuri gave to Victor also serves as a symbol of their being soulmates. Yuuri said he had no name to describe this feeling and I think it captures the nature of their relationship really well. Calling it love is a wonderful way of putting it, but I think they already went above even that. It is a relationship where they push each other in the best direction Otsuka: And they kept surprising the audience each time, too. When you show scenes that leave no room for other interpretations here's a risk of it not sitting well with some people, but Kubo and Yamamoto always plunged forward with no hesitation. Inb4 hugs don't sit well with people. There is more stuff, but I cannot find it at the moment. Heck you even have Japanese friends of Yamamoto casually discuss Victor and Yuuri as a gay couple: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60x4E44Q53A Oh, and let's not forget Kubo's Nigehaji twitter in which she pretty much tells you they kissed after it aired: https://twitter.com/kubo_3260/status/798945769747120133 I wouldn't use the word "correct", but every interpretation of fictitious entertainment is at least allowed. Those Tokyo Ghoul fujos can continue to ship their homoship even if the MC had sex with a girl (I just wish they'd stop with the death threats). This doesn't quite address what I said. They are allowed to ship, but do you feel like their interpretation of the story is correct? Ultimately there is only one truth. If someone went in Tokyo Ghoul 125 chapter thread and started to argue Kaneki is secretly gay for Hide, I would assume people would tell her she's wrong even if she's allowed to think that. Which brings us to: Why is it so bad to have a no-homo reaction to a series that's only bait and no canon homo? If they're rude about it, then of course it's unfortunate. However that doesn't invalidate their viewpoint. That's the point though, you can claim anything is "bait" if you want. People really do this all the time even with canon homo couples. Even if two characters kiss, even if they confess their love for each other, people can just claim "it's bait" because the creator hasn't stated in plain text: Yes, they are gay. I'm sure you are familiar with Evangelion. When episode 24 aired, there were genuine on screen homosexual romance elements, and yet what did people do? They called it bait. Except, uh, it wasn't. (Or do people still argue Eva was bait? I honestly haven't keep with Eva fandom since I don't like the pairing) Most people who watched YoI don't agree or consider it "bait" and they don't see ambiguity. You are essentially telling them the characters are straight and they are being baited, which yes, will result in people addressing your view of it. That's what baiting often is. Random moments. I'm not sure what you are arguing. The romance has a trajectory, when people look at Victor and Yuuri they see two gay men being intimate with each other through the course of the show and gradually getting more intimate. Does Chris touching Yuri's ass count as bait? I don't know. It could, but it's largely irrelevant because I'm not sure who they are bating exactly and why? Why am I suppose to think it's bait? At most I think it's fanservice, which doesn't necessarily equate bait. Also, you completely ignored my question in the previous post. So I'll repeat the question until you answer it. Why should I ruin my viewing experience by forcing myself to think that they're totally a couple? I'm honestly not even sure what you are asking? If you are allowed to have an headcanon? If you are allowed to think Yuri is straight and you are being baited into think he's gay? You can do what you want. Just expect people to answer to you when you post an opinion they don't agree with and think it is a bad reading of the show. That's what forums are for! For safe spaces and headcanons there is, unironically, Tumblr, I suppose. |
BernrikaJun 6, 2017 6:28 PM
Bernrika said: Who's the one saying this? Is it someone more important than Yamamoto, regarding the plot? Because Yamamoto said that the relationship was not easily defined by words like "lovers" or "family".mimiiria said: Jeez, I don't know:So if you wouldn't mind finding a better source, or those specific tweets if you want to make a point? Right around that time, I heard that some athletes have a mentality that they “skate for the sake of their love.” In this case, it seemed that the “love” they were referring to would probably be a lover, and even if they’re not together, as long as they think about their significant other, they can do their best and would show results because of that. When I realized this, Director Yamamoto and I felt like we were struck by lightning, as we were completely shocked! Personally, I have never written such a direct story where love is the thing that drives [the character], if I want to challenge myself and create a story like that, I thought, the best chance would be with this anime. The sport of figure skating itself deals with various themes, as a work of fiction, if combining the theme of sports and love is the right choice, then it is the right choice. Yuuri Katsuki does not skate just for his own love, but with Victor in the picture, all of his love is shown with his skating, and because of that, he is able to have a strong resolve to try and get the gold medal. I think that we were able to pinpoint this in the anime. Otsuka: They completed each other and what's more, they found a new path to follow ahead of them. Yuuri said he had no name to describe this feeling and I think it captures the nature of their relationship really well. Calling it love is a wonderful way of putting it, but I think they already went above even that. It is a relationship where they push each other in the best direction. Before the Grand Prix Final, in the last episode featuring characters in their normal daily lives, we went for an episode without any skating scenes at all, just a really relaxed story, while introducing the competitors. Ultimately, though, there was a surging development, and in the end, no one wound up being able to relax whatsoever. Apparently the animators had quite a difficult time as well. The ring that Yuuri gave to Victor also serves as a symbol of their being soulmates. Yuuri said he had no name to describe this feeling and I think it captures the nature of their relationship really well. Calling it love is a wonderful way of putting it, but I think they already went above even that. It is a relationship where they push each other in the best direction Otsuka: And they kept surprising the audience each time, too. When you show scenes that leave no room for other interpretations here's a risk of it not sitting well with some people, but Kubo and Yamamoto always plunged forward with no hesitation. Besides, Otsuka isn't even mentioned in the staff list in the MAL page. As long as Yamamoto (who's marked as original creator/series composition/director) says that the relationship is not defined as lovers, then they're not canonically lovers. Here's a link if you don't believe me: https://twitter.com/Aki_the_geek/status/854662087733264389 Heck you even have Japanese friends of Yamamoto casually discuss Victor and Yuuri as a gay couple: Then they interpret them as a gay couple, nothing wrong with that.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60x4E44Q53A However they're not the ones making this anime. I wouldn't use the word "correct", but every interpretation of fictitious entertainment is at least allowed. Those Tokyo Ghoul fujos can continue to ship their homoship even if the MC had sex with a girl (I just wish they'd stop with the death threats). This doesn't quite address what I said. They are allowed to ship, but do you feel like their interpretation of the story is correct? Ultimately there is only one truth. Some ships will obviously have more bait than others, but bait doesn't equal canon. Why is it so bad to have a no-homo reaction to a series that's only bait and no canon homo? If they're rude about it, then of course it's unfortunate. However that doesn't invalidate their viewpoint. That's the point though, you can claim anything is "bait" if you want. People really do this all the time even with canon homo couples. Even if two characters kiss, even if they confess their love for each other, people can just claim "it's bait" because the creator hasn't stated in plain text: Yes, they are gay. I'm sure you are familiar with Evangelion. When episode 24 aired, there were genuine on screen homosexual romance elements, and yet what did people do? They called it bait. Except, uh, it wasn't.Those people clearly don't share the same taste as you, so why even bother caring about their opinions? Again, if they're rude, then it's a problem, but only because of their bad behavior and not because of their opinion. Most people who watched YoI don't agree or consider it "bait" and they don't see ambiguity. You are essentially telling them the characters are straight and they are being baited, which yes, will result in people addressing your view of it. I'm telling what to who? I wasn't telling anyone anything else on this forum except that I don't consider YOI to be yaoi. After that I've only tried to explain my viewpoint to you, but it's not like I go around the YOI fan community, declaring my opinion to them.Also, you completely ignored my question in the previous post. So I'll repeat the question until you answer it. Why should I ruin my viewing experience by forcing myself to think that they're totally a couple? I'm honestly not even sure what you are asking? If you are allowed to have an headcanon? If you are allowed to think Yuri is straight and you are being baited into think he's gay? You can do what you want. Just expect people to answer to you when you post an opinions they don't agree of and think it's a bad reading of the show. |
mimiiria said: Maneki-Mew said: I don't mean to sound cold, but I don't care what the LGBT people think. Apparently many people in the LGBT community see some BL clichés as problematic, and that they don't depict homosexual relations realistically. But to me they're good entertainment, so I will continue to consume them. All I'm doing is watching and reading fiction. I'm not hurting anyone by doing that.To be honest, it gets on my nerves sometimes, because that behavior gets on the nerve of LGBT-people sometimes. I hope you can understand this from my point of view. Most gay relationships are just in Girls or Boys Love manga and anime canon and most of them are Slice of Life romances, which are clearly directed to fujoshis and not to the general and more wide ranged audience. Yes, certain cliches, but that's why people are extra-touched, if a gay couple without cliches is very obvious. The most important part is liking them as characters and their dynamics of course, but a good almost-canon gay couple with fleshed out personalities, who aren't treated as Seme and Uke or just the gay walking stereotype and don't look like it and have a deeper bonding to each other, they are extra-touching, I guess? ^^" When they are more realistic and you get really attached to them, but they still don't make it canon (I mean to SAY: that's the case, guys) while throwing it in your face:  It's annoying with straight pairs too, but with gay pairs, it's because they just don't dare and are afraid to take it a step further. No you're not hurting someone and nobody will hinder you doing so. ^^" |
removed-userJun 6, 2017 7:22 PM
mimiiria said: Who's the one saying this? Kubo. How are any of those quotes contrasting my personal interpretation of YOI? And that last quote is very vague, Otsuka might as well be referring to the scene where the Swiss guy jizzes on ice. Nothing in that sentence implies that it's specifically about Victor's and Yuuri's supposed "gay" relationship. Err, it's one sentence. He's talking about the scenes which surprised the audience and could be considering "ambiguous", telling you they are they are not ambiguous at all and he doesn't care if they make the audience uncomfortable. Besides, Otsuka isn't even mentioned in the staff list in the MAL page. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1601017 Complain to them. Why do you think they are interviewing this dude? He's literally the person who can say what he wants about YoI. I think Kubo has less freedom than him because she's just a freelancer writer in the end. As long as Yamamoto (who's marked as original creator/series composition/director) If you want to play that card Yamamoto also said that the first thing she see when looks at Victor and Yuri is "love", and she specifically used the Japanese word used for romantic love. says that the relationship is not defined as lovers She just said it's a bond that goes beyond lovers or family and cannot be defined by that: Relationships labeled with words like "lovers" or "family" are stifling - so I wanted to draw a bond not bound by such names. Which makes sense, there is more to Victor and Yuuri's relationship, they are in love, they are teacher and students, partners on the rink and best friends. However they're not the ones making this anime. Oh, of course. I was just showing your about the public perception in Japan. People don't feel "baited". They like YoI because it is canon for them. If two characters share a (non-accidental) kiss, then I'll personally consider them a couple, but that's just me. Some may still want to think of it as bait, like you said. But why does it matter? Why do you care? OK, I'm not even talking about YoI now Because this is a forum and we are here to discuss about Japanese cartoons and their 2D boys and girls. I'm not so sure what's so weird about it? If "you" misinterpret a fact people will try to correct "you". Think any series with two canon characters. Would you find weird if shippers told people "lel, they are canon, what are you saying?" and then argued for it when they are factually canon? I'm telling what to who? I wasn't telling anyone anything else on this forum except that I don't consider YOI to be yaoi. Yes. People don't agree about it (Or rather, people don't agree it is bait). They are going to address your posts. There's a difference between simply disagreeing and calling the person homophobic/delusional, you know. You know what? I could even apologize for it but, please, understand there is a (significant) segment of the population uncomfortable with homosexuality that will deny it because they are against it and don't want to be associated with it. They don't care about characterization or anything that is happening on screen and will reject any romantic notion automatically (When between two dudes). Do you find anything wrong with this statement? |
BernrikaJun 6, 2017 7:35 PM
| And no source again so I just have to take your word for it? Also that "love" is never defined as romantic love, so it's not contradictory to what Yamamoto said. How are any of those quotes contrasting my personal interpretation of YOI? And that last quote is very vague, Otsuka might as well be referring to the scene where the Swiss guy jizzes on ice. Nothing in that sentence implies that it's specifically about Victor's and Yuuri's supposed "gay" relationship. Err, it's one sentence. He's talking about the scenes which surprised the audience and could be considering "ambiguous", telling you they are they are not ambiguous at all and he doesn't care if they make the audience uncomfortable. "And they kept surprising the audience each time, too. When you show scenes that leave no room for other interpretations here's a risk of it not sitting well with some people, but Kubo and Yamamoto always plunged forward with no hesitation." No, he's not talking about scenes that are ambiguous in the series, he's talking about scenes that leave no room for other interpretations. That kiss/hug scene is clearly very vague and can be interpreted in many ways, so he's not talking about scenes like that. He's talking about obvious but risque scenes that are usually left vague in other series except YOI. He says that Kubo and Yamamoto had the courage to add scenes that other creators wouldn't. That jizz scene is one good example. Besides, Otsuka isn't even mentioned in the staff list in the MAL page. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1601017 Complain to them. Why do you think they are interviewing this dude? He's literally the person who can say what he wants about YoI. I think Kubo has less freedom than him because she's just a freelancer writer in the end. And even if he does have more say in YOI than Yamamoto, that still changes nothing, because those quotes of his that you posted don't contradict my personal interpretation of the anime. So you're wasting time talking about him anyway. As long as Yamamoto (who's marked as original creator/series composition/director) If you want to play that card Yamamoto also said that the first thing she see when looks at Victor and Yuri is "love", and she specifically used the Japanese word used for romantic love. Relationships labeled with words like "lovers" or "family" are stifling - so I wanted to draw a bond not bound by such names. Which makes sense, there is more to Victor and Yuuri's relationship, they are in love, they are teacher and students, partners on the rink and best friends. Because this is a forum and we are here to discuss about Japanese cartoons and their 2D boys and girls. I'm not so sure what's so weird about it? If "you" misinterpret a fact people will try to correct "you". Think any series with two canon characters. Would you find weird if shippers told people "lel, they are canon, what are you saying?" and then argued for it when they are factually canon? Maybe, because they don't share my point of view. But why should I care? If I would try to discuss it with them and they'd have their own stern opinion of the ships (that I'd think is just headcanon), then I'd just say that they have the right to think that way. That's it. What else should I be saying to them?I'm telling what to who? I wasn't telling anyone anything else on this forum except that I don't consider YOI to be yaoi. Yes. People don't agree about it (Or rather, people don't agree it is bait). They are going to address your posts.There's a difference between simply disagreeing and calling the person homophobic/delusional, you know. You know what? I could even apologize for it but, please, understand there is a (significant) segment of the population uncomfortable with homosexuality that will deny it because they are against it and don't want to be associated with it. They don't care about characterization or anything that is happening on screen and will reject any romantic notion automatically (When between two dudes). Do you find anything wrong with this statement? |
mimiiria said: And no source again so I just have to take your word for it? Yes, I lie about interviews you can find with google. These are not top secret documents. That kiss/hug scene is clearly very vague and can be interpreted in many ways, so he's not talking about scenes like that. This doesn't make any sense. The scenes that surprised the audience are episode 7 and 10 and some minor scenes. The kiss isn't ambiguous (Kubo literally told people after the ep aired: https://twitter.com/kubo_3260/status/798945769747120133). It takes a significant amount of courage to have and push for two canon gay men in a non BL show. https://twitter.com/i/moments/819868285474742272 Heck, he even compare them to Victor. I feft that Kubo and Yamamoto both wanted to surprise the audience each time, which is something they have in common with Viktor. Does Yamamoto have less freedom than him? Because he's the producer and works at Mappa. You know, the one that puts the money and actually pushed for the show (And other Mappa's shows) to get made. Do you mean "ai"? The same word that Yuuri used in that press interview when he talked about his non-romantic love for Victor? Actually he doesn't' say it's not romantic love, he only says that he doesn't know the name on that feeling. (Which makes sense, Yuri on Ice is about Yuuri realizing is love and erotic feelings for Victor. It's a sexual awakening story.) The speech is badly translated. Actually, you know what? It's clear this is pointless. I truly cannot understand why anyone would look at Yuri on Ice, look at these interviews and think Sayo and Kubo wanted to write a story about two best friends in a straight friendship. It literally takes away half of the story, completely erases Yuuri's development and the layers to Yuuri and Victor's relationship. Maybe, because they don't share my point of view. But why should I care? Because this is a forum and we are to discuss facts about anime and manga. There is a difference between "this is my headcanon" and "this is what I think happened in the manga", by the way. They can choose not to read my comments, so it's not like I'm guilty of any kind of harassment here I'm not telling you are harassing anyone. I'm telling you if you post an opinion on a forum people will comment and share their view. It's an excuse to be biased about people with different opinions. One should always treat people as individuals, and not as some horde of potential bigots. Just a tip for the next time you come across someone like me. Can I ask you a question? Why do you think Yuuri is in love with Yuuko? I mean, he didn't confess, did he? He was interrupted. Doesn't that fall under ambiguity, using your own words? The official Japanese site uses the world "admire" for her. He doesn't seem to think about her much after that moment. She's also... married. Sure, he blushes and calls her cute, but he also blushes at Victor and also get way more filtry with Victor than he does with anyone. I find that "Most people are straight" is a weird argument, you read BL so you should know that ultimately, in a manga or anime, most people can be gay or bi. Heck, even in real life I don't think you'll have hard time find two gay athletes, and YoI world doesn't have homophobia. |
BernrikaJun 7, 2017 9:05 AM
Bernrika said: Yet you're unable to provide a direct link.mimiiria said: And no source again so I just have to take your word for it? Yes, I lie about interviews you can find with google. These are not top secret documents. That kiss/hug scene is clearly very vague and can be interpreted in many ways, so he's not talking about scenes like that. This doesn't make any sense. The scenes that surprised the audience are episode 7 and 10 and some minor scenes. The kiss isn't ambiguous (Kubo literally told people after the ep aired: https://twitter.com/kubo_3260/status/798945769747120133). It takes a significant amount of courage to have and push for two canon gay men in a non BL show. https://twitter.com/i/moments/819868285474742272 Again, nothing that contrasts my point of view, nor Yamamoto's. Keep trying though, if it's so important to you to force Yuuri's and Victor's relationship into a stiff mold.Heck, he even compare them to Victor. I feft that Kubo and Yamamoto both wanted to surprise the audience each time, which is something they have in common with Viktor. Does Yamamoto have less freedom than him? Because he's the producer and works at Mappa. You know, the one that puts the money and actually pushed for the show (And other Mappa's shows) to get made.Do you mean "ai"? The same word that Yuuri used in that press interview when he talked about his non-romantic love for Victor? Actually he doesn't' say it's not romantic love, he only says that he doesn't know the name on that feeling. (Which makes sense, Yuri on Ice is about Yuuri realizing is love and erotic feelings for Victor. It's a sexual awakening story.) The speech is badly translated. Actually, you know what? It's clear this is pointless. I truly cannot understand why anyone would look at Yuri on Ice, look at these interviews and think Sayo and Kubo wanted to write a story about two best friends in a straight friendship. It literally takes away half of the story, completely erases Yuuri's development and the layers to Yuuri and Victor's relationship. Maybe, because they don't share my point of view. But why should I care? Because this is a forum and we are to discuss facts about anime and manga. There is a difference between "this is my headcanon" and "this is what I think happened in the manga", by the way. It's an excuse to be biased about people with different opinions. One should always treat people as individuals, and not as some horde of potential bigots. Just a tip for the next time you come across someone like me. Can I ask you a question? Why do you think Yuuri is in love with Yuuko? I mean, he didn't confess, did he? He was interrupted. Doesn't that fall under ambiguity, using your own words? The official Japanese site uses the world "admire" for her. He doesn't seem to think about her much after that moment. She's also... married. |
Oh lordy, here you go: http://aitaikimochi.tumblr.com/post/157193243576/yuri-on-ice-febri-magazine-translation-aitaikimochi https://katsudononice.tumblr.com/post/157279964269/yuri-on-ice-febri-magazine-translation-aitaikimochi You could have find it yourself by copy-pasting it into google. Do you think I spend my free days making fake speeches on the Internet? If you are asking for the for initial person who translated this, I'm afraid I can't recall. Maybe Aki? It was like 6 months ago now. That tweet says nothing about the "kiss". Google translate says it's something along the lines of "It is my imagination that I felt something to synchronize with this week's escape shame". Nothing about a kiss being canon. She's talking about Nigehaji. It's a Japanese show in which the main couple finally kissed after a long wait. She also says YoI and Nigehaji are oddly synchronized this week immediately after episode 7 aired. So he can force a vague relationship into being gay? No one see it as "vague", so he can't force anything. He's the producer, he worked with Kubo and Sayo and he works at Mappa so he can say what he wants. If anything the "straight" "interpretation" is forced. Japanese people don't see it or perceive as it "bait", that's why you get people like Gengoroh Tagame mangaka discussing the impact YoI had with the LGBT people of Japan. "Yuuri and Victor are straight" is basically equivalent to thinking ""Kaneki and Hide are secretly in love" for most people. Most people look at them and see two gay men in love. Of course, now the translation is to blame ;) Err, what? YoI is notoriously mistranslated. It's a well documented fact, there were even blogs about it. For example, Victor mentions having a "girlfriend" in episode 3 (or 4?), but in the in the Japanese text he always uses the gender-neutral term. This TOTALLY changes the tone of their conversation and implications, as you can guess. I think someone even resubbed the whole show with a more correct translation. Exactly, it's a fucking forum. It's not some courtroom or a police investigation. People can and do write bullshit just because they can. If you're not completely new to the Internet, then you'll know better than to be triggered by provocations and idiots. My, my. As you said, this is a forum, if you post something people will comment on it. We are having a discussions. Blog posts are for those who wish to express their opinion without being challenge. Why does my opinion on Yuuri and Yuuko matter? Honestly I never gave the two much thought. Curiosity? I find weird that you think he's in love with her and not with Victor given that his feelings for her are not ever put in plain text and she's oddly.. absent from the anime or his thoughts past episode 1. |
BernrikaJun 7, 2017 1:58 PM
Bernrika said: Thank you. Not that Kubo's words change anything though, as she doesn't define the "love" any more than Yamamoto did.Oh lordy, here you go: http://aitaikimochi.tumblr.com/post/157193243576/yuri-on-ice-febri-magazine-translation-aitaikimochi https://katsudononice.tumblr.com/post/157279964269/yuri-on-ice-febri-magazine-translation-aitaikimochi You could have find it yourself by copy-pasting it into google. Do you think I spend my free days making fake speeches on the Internet? If you are asking for the for initial person who translated this, I'm afraid I can't recall. Maybe Aki? It was like 6 months ago now. That tweet says nothing about the "kiss". Google translate says it's something along the lines of "It is my imagination that I felt something to synchronize with this week's escape shame". Nothing about a kiss being canon. She's talking about Nigehaji. It's a Japanese show in which the main couple finally kissed after a long wait. She also says YoI and Nigehaji are oddly synchronized this week immediately after episode 7 aired.If anything the "straight" "interpretation" is forced. Japanese people don't see it or perceive as it "bait", that's why you get people like Gengoroh Tagame mangaka discussing the impact YoI had with the LGBT people of Japan. Please, understand "Yuuri and Victor are straight" is basically equivalent to thinking ""Kaneki and Hide are secretly in love" for most people. Most people look at them and see two gay men in love. Yeah, most. But not all, because there is room for interpretation.Exactly, it's a fucking forum. It's not some courtroom or a police investigation. People can and do write bullshit just because they can. If you're not completely new to the Internet, then you'll know better than to be triggered by provocations and idiots. My, my. As you said, this is a forum, if you post something people will comment on it. We are having a discussions. Blog posts are for those who wish to express their opinion without being challenge. Why does my opinion on Yuuri and Yuuko matter? Honestly I never gave the two much thought. Curiosity? I find weird that you think he's in love with her and not with Victor given that his feelings for her are not ever put in plain text and she's oddly.. absent from the anime or his thoughts past episode 1. |
| lol i wonder if the original post person ever thought his or her question would derail into a many pages long argument haha... |
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DeKuGOD said: SkyFullOfStars said: lol i wonder if the original post person ever thought his or her question would derail into a many pages long argument haha... Nope lol , someone should make a book with this arguments yes haha, that would be interesting |
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| guys guys, doesnt really matter. doesnt change the fact that Yuri on Ice is a shit anime that fails as a sport anime and also fails in showing a healthy homosexual relationship if it even is one. |
| no |
Maneki-Mew said: SkyFullOfStars said: yes haha, that would be interesting Imagine a person will find this book in 1000 years and wonder who those Yuri-and Victor-guys were and what happened to them. :D true! or maybe the future changes so much that yaoi and yuri don't even exist as terms anymore. |
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Roronoa said: guys guys, doesnt really matter. doesnt change the fact that Yuri on Ice is a shit anime that fails as a sport anime and also fails in showing a healthy homosexual relationship if it even is one. bro you're gonna trigger a bunch of hardcore YOI fans |
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SkyFullOfStars said: Roronoa said: guys guys, doesnt really matter. doesnt change the fact that Yuri on Ice is a shit anime that fails as a sport anime and also fails in showing a healthy homosexual relationship if it even is one. bro you're gonna trigger a bunch of hardcore YOI fans it was directed by a woman who probably doesnt know shit about how a man would actually feel, she wrote it in the way perfect for fujos, thats why its highly praised by them. |
| no |
Roronoa said: it was directed by a woman who probably doesnt know shit about how a man would actually feel, she wrote it in the way perfect for fujos, thats why its highly praised by them. lol maybe, idk. I like it more for its use of instagram haha |
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LAPX said: As a straight male, I have absolutely no interest in yaoi and avoid it whenever I can and absolutely hate when two straight characters are put in a yaoi ship, but that's more out of a lack of interest than homophobia because I'll tolerate yaoi ships if the characters are actually gay and it is not the focus of the show while I enjoy shipping characters of the same gender together, I'm free game as long as they don't officially have a BF or GF and it's not incest. Even if the guy is a womanizer, who knows, he might be bi or something. But if he goes out wih a girl in the future (cough naruto cough bleach cough tokyo ghoul cough) while i would still ship them, I won't diss the anime for the straight ship. |
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mimiiria said: hat's just how people can be, assuming heterosexuality because of greater odds in real life. How many people do you know who assume every character to be homosexual, if they know nothing of the show beforehand? Which it's a find and sound logic. However, when I'm watching a show, if a character show clear signs of being gay (Like, I don't know, he's show pinning for another dude, he's uncomfortable with homophobia, shows no interest in women, flirts with men, etc ) I start to revaluate my view of him. "Show don't tell" is an effective storytelling device as well subtly. You can communicate a character's interest for another character through a lot of things. People do it with female characters all the time! Heck, some author definitely like to play on the ambiguity and they don't mention a character's sexuality. In short, most people are straight, but it's not like gay characters don't exist. Yeah, most. But not all, because there is room for interpretation. Yeah, I'm not seeing many straight "interpretation" for YoI that make sense. Regardless, I know people would claim "there is room for interpretation" if Yuri and Victor kissed on screen with visible lips. Thank you. Not that Kubo's words change anything though, as she doesn't define the "love" any more than Yamamoto did. So Yuuri and Victor kissed in her imagination? Okay, good for her I guess. Why do I bother? DeKuGOD said: SkyFullOfStars said: lol i wonder if the original post person ever thought his or her question would derail into a many pages long argument haha... Nope lol , someone should make a book with this arguments Lol, this was last one, I promise. :P Roronoa said: it was directed by a woman who probably doesnt know shit about how a man would actually feel, she wrote it in the way perfect for fujos, thats why its highly praised by them. It is know that no gay men ever praised YoI. Especially not Johnny Weir. |
BernrikaJun 7, 2017 2:49 PM
Roronoa said: it was directed by a woman who probably doesnt know shit about how a man would actually feel, she wrote it in the way perfect for fujos, thats why its highly praised by them. Her resume sure gives her much experience with catering to fujoshi with anime like Samurai Champloo, Arakawa under the Bridge, Lupin the Third: Mine Fujiko to Iu Onna, Panty & Stocking, Redline, Ergo Proxy etc... I'm sure that was the only thing on her mind, what her career was building up to... |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Maneki-Mew said: SkyFullOfStars said: true! or maybe the future changes so much that yaoi and yuri don't even exist as terms anymore. Of course, it won't. I guess. And anime as well. BUT the reader would read it like a mystery thriller, trying to find the answer (are they going to marry? What did the signs mean?) and waiting for the conclusion. :D hahahahahahahaha honestly, we can go a step further and wonder if humans would exist 1000 years in the future and maybe an alien would see this post. |
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