TheBrainintheJar said: Zefyris said: I already partially explained why above, and explained it many time before, but okay, why not. Also Taiga is a very well built character, you liking her or not is a different problem. She's very violent, sure, so I can understand why peoples may not like her, but she has reasons to be violent, so putting aside you liking her or not, she's better built than most anime character. So saying she's "bad" is hilariously wrong. 1) A tsundere can be violent (it's not a requirement though) towards the person she's in loves with, but that violence (with words or physical) comes from the embarrassent/being dishonest about her own feelings. Taiga never used violence for such reason. Taiga is violent towards EVERYONE BUT THE PERSON SHE'S IN LOVE WITH. That's because physical violence is the only way Taiga ever learned to defends herself and the persons she cares about (she uses for example violence to help other peoples in the story, by turning the attention towards her immediate violence and so on). ->That's not a tsundere trait. Someone who is violent with everyone doesn't hit the MC because of being a tsundere. In fact, that's even more radical here, because at the beginning of the story, she's in love with Yuusuke, and she is NEVER violent towards yuusuke, she's always nice with him. Later, she becomes in love with the MC, sure, but after realizing it, she never acts violently out of tsundere-ish behaviour towards him. Quite the contrary, in fact. 2) A character that can quickly confess her/his love without being dishonest is NOT a tsundere. Taiga confessed her love to yuusuke in the FIRST volume. Further in, as soon as the MC tells Taiga that he's okay with going out with her (until then she was keeping it secret to not betray her best friend, again, not a tsundere behaviour at all), she literally JUMP IN HIS ARMS. Talk about a tsundere.... Kind of the exact contrary once again here :/. 3) There's two main reasons for peoples calling Taiga a tsundere. The first is that at the beginning she hits the MC and at the end she 's lovey dovey with him; "so tsun then dere", right? Well no. Tsundere is a personality trait, not a succession of happenings. If a woman slap you for whatever when she doesn't like you and then 1 years later is going out with you, that doesn't make her a tsundere lol. Succession of events=/= personality trait. The second is that she's voiced by the "tsundere queen". Little did you know, the director first refused to have kugimiya rie voices Taiga because he was afraid that Taiga would be perceived as a tsundere by mistake due to that voice actor being usually associated with that at that time. But after listening to her audition, he changed his mind due to the voice acting being particularly good. Could go on and on, but as a general rules, characters who quickly confesses aren't tsundere, and characters who are violent for either good reasons or violent because they are violent with everyone aren't "acting like tsundere" just because they hit the MC. If a woman slaps the man she loves because he did something that deserved the slap (recent example : the slap at the end of sukasuka episode 4), that's not being a tsundere, either. Point taken. Taiga is not a tsundere. I stand corrected. I do think she's a horrible character. She's an abusive person who treats everyone like crap, yet her actions are often framed as cute and funny. Her actions and personality are dark, she makes everyone's reality more horrible. Framing it as funny is just lacking taste. TBH I would argue back that her violence being framed as funny isn't a feature from the character "Aisaka Taiga" but from the show "toradora" itself. She herself doesn't do violence in order to be funny, she's serious about it, since as I said above, that's simply her defence mechanism. It being wrong or not is beyond the point, since she isn't especially happy about being like that herself either. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: Zefyris said: I already partially explained why above, and explained it many time before, but okay, why not. Also Taiga is a very well built character, you liking her or not is a different problem. She's very violent, sure, so I can understand why peoples may not like her, but she has reasons to be violent, so putting aside you liking her or not, she's better built than most anime character. So saying she's "bad" is hilariously wrong. 1) A tsundere can be violent (it's not a requirement though) towards the person she's in loves with, but that violence (with words or physical) comes from the embarrassent/being dishonest about her own feelings. Taiga never used violence for such reason. Taiga is violent towards EVERYONE BUT THE PERSON SHE'S IN LOVE WITH. That's because physical violence is the only way Taiga ever learned to defends herself and the persons she cares about (she uses for example violence to help other peoples in the story, by turning the attention towards her immediate violence and so on). ->That's not a tsundere trait. Someone who is violent with everyone doesn't hit the MC because of being a tsundere. In fact, that's even more radical here, because at the beginning of the story, she's in love with Yuusuke, and she is NEVER violent towards yuusuke, she's always nice with him. Later, she becomes in love with the MC, sure, but after realizing it, she never acts violently out of tsundere-ish behaviour towards him. Quite the contrary, in fact. 2) A character that can quickly confess her/his love without being dishonest is NOT a tsundere. Taiga confessed her love to yuusuke in the FIRST volume. Further in, as soon as the MC tells Taiga that he's okay with going out with her (until then she was keeping it secret to not betray her best friend, again, not a tsundere behaviour at all), she literally JUMP IN HIS ARMS. Talk about a tsundere.... Kind of the exact contrary once again here :/. 3) There's two main reasons for peoples calling Taiga a tsundere. The first is that at the beginning she hits the MC and at the end she 's lovey dovey with him; "so tsun then dere", right? Well no. Tsundere is a personality trait, not a succession of happenings. If a woman slap you for whatever when she doesn't like you and then 1 years later is going out with you, that doesn't make her a tsundere lol. Succession of events=/= personality trait. The second is that she's voiced by the "tsundere queen". Little did you know, the director first refused to have kugimiya rie voices Taiga because he was afraid that Taiga would be perceived as a tsundere by mistake due to that voice actor being usually associated with that at that time. But after listening to her audition, he changed his mind due to the voice acting being particularly good. Could go on and on, but as a general rules, characters who quickly confesses aren't tsundere, and characters who are violent for either good reasons or violent because they are violent with everyone aren't "acting like tsundere" just because they hit the MC. If a woman slaps the man she loves because he did something that deserved the slap (recent example : the slap at the end of sukasuka episode 4), that's not being a tsundere, either. Point taken. Taiga is not a tsundere. I stand corrected. I do think she's a horrible character. She's an abusive person who treats everyone like crap, yet her actions are often framed as cute and funny. Her actions and personality are dark, she makes everyone's reality more horrible. Framing it as funny is just lacking taste. Taiga does not "treat everyone like crap" at all. The only characters she acts negatively towards are Ami and Ryuuji (Ami constantly eggs her on) and she gradually accepts that she loves Ryuuji and stops treating him that way. When it comes to Ryuuji, she's absolutely tsundere though so I disagree with Zefyris. |
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Chiibi said: TheBrainintheJar said: Point taken. Taiga is not a tsundere. I stand corrected. I do think she's a horrible character. She's an abusive person who treats everyone like crap, yet her actions are often framed as cute and funny. Her actions and personality are dark, she makes everyone's reality more horrible. Framing it as funny is just lacking taste. Taiga does not "treat everyone like crap" at all. The only characters she acts negatively towards are Ami and Ryuuji (Ami constantly eggs her on) and she gradually accepts that she loves Ryuuji and stops treating him that way. When it comes to Ryuuji, she's absolutely tsundere though so I disagree with Zefyris. She treats everyone badly (and have a very ill reputation due to that actually, most students are scared of her) except her closest friend minori and the person she loves. Only exception is each year one month before christmas for one month, when she isn't violent against anyone at all (the so called angel taiga). You apparently have no idea of what you're talking about here. |
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Okay, that's rude and uncalled for. -.- We don't SEE her "treating everyone badly"; yes, they are afraid of her because they've seen what she can do but nowhere in the novels does it state "she abuses everyone". |
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Chiibi said: TheBrainintheJar said: Point taken. Taiga is not a tsundere. I stand corrected. I do think she's a horrible character. She's an abusive person who treats everyone like crap, yet her actions are often framed as cute and funny. Her actions and personality are dark, she makes everyone's reality more horrible. Framing it as funny is just lacking taste. Taiga does not "treat everyone like crap" at all. The only characters she acts negatively towards are Ami and Ryuuji (Ami constantly eggs her on) and she gradually accepts that she loves Ryuuji and stops treating him that way. When it comes to Ryuuji, she's absolutely tsundere though so I disagree with Zefyris. He's right. It's not hidden affection. She simply dislikes him at first. It doesn't matter though. Her abusive actions, the perpetual violence is framed as cute whereas it should leave people scarred and broken. Zefyris said: TheBrainintheJar said: Point taken. Taiga is not a tsundere. I stand corrected. I do think she's a horrible character. She's an abusive person who treats everyone like crap, yet her actions are often framed as cute and funny. Her actions and personality are dark, she makes everyone's reality more horrible. Framing it as funny is just lacking taste. TBH I would argue back that her violence being framed as funny isn't a feature from the character "Aisaka Taiga" but from the show "toradora" itself. She herself doesn't do violence in order to be funny, she's serious about it, since as I said above, that's simply her defence mechanism. It being wrong or not is beyond the point, since she isn't especially happy about being like that herself either. The storytellers frame the violence as funny and lighthearted. My judgment still stands - it's a horrible way of treating a serious subject matter. |
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Chiibi said: Okay, that's rude and uncalled for. -.- We don't SEE her "treating everyone badly"; yes, they are afraid of her because they've seen what she can do but nowhere in the novels does it state "she abuses everyone". That wasn't intended to be rude, although it was intended to be blunt. We see her several times being extremely agressive both with words and with physical violence during the story (at the pool, before class, after the festival, and so on) furthermore, she already has that reputation to aggressively react to any word or action she doesn't like) BEFORE she meets Ryuuji and Ami. She also hits him the first second they meet, just after he says something she doesn't like. Are you telling me that she was liking him before meeting him or something? TheBrainintheJar said: The storytellers frame the violence as funny and lighthearted. My judgment still stands - it's a horrible way of treating a serious subject matter. Well my point wasn't to say you weren't right on that point (while I disagree, I can see why you don't like that). What I'm saying is that your point doesn't make a character bad, it would make the story telling itself bad, which means that this isn't a reason for calling Taiga herself a bad character. The way a character's action is seen by the story teller isn't (it being good or bad) a characteristic of the character being seen. :) |
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Zefyris said: Chiibi said: Okay, that's rude and uncalled for. -.- We don't SEE her "treating everyone badly"; yes, they are afraid of her because they've seen what she can do but nowhere in the novels does it state "she abuses everyone". That wasn't intended to be rude, although it was intended to be blunt. We see her several times being extremely agressive both with words and with physical violence during the story (at the pool, before class, after the festival, and so on) furthermore, she already has that reputation to aggressively react to any word or action she doesn't like) BEFORE she meets Ryuuji and Ami. She also hits him the first second they meet, just after he says something she doesn't like. Are you telling me that she was liking him before meeting him or something? TheBrainintheJar said: The storytellers frame the violence as funny and lighthearted. My judgment still stands - it's a horrible way of treating a serious subject matter. Well my point wasn't to say you weren't right on that point (while I disagree, I can see why you don't like that). What I'm saying is that your point doesn't make a character bad, it would make the story telling itself bad, which means that this isn't a reason for calling Taiga herself a bad character. The way a character's action is seen by the story teller isn't (it being good or bad) a characteristic of the character being seen. :) While I think you can make a distinction between a character and narrative, you can't separate them. A character cannot exist outside the narrative and the narrative cannot exist without characters. So yes, I do think the framing of a character is integral to what the character is. Taiga is a bad character because it's a violent person framed as funny. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: Taiga is a bad character because it's a violent person framed as funny. I wouldn't say she's always framed as "funny" though....told from Ryuuji's point of view, he doesn't find her violent acts "funny" at all but terrifying or mean-spirited. I think it's subjective to whether the viewer finds her "funny" or not. But I don't think she's a bad character; she is rather complex and she has many sides to her instead of being a one-note stereotype. Whether she's a "likable character", now that's a whole different matter. She's not my favorite tsundere but I do like her, even though she doesn't always do likable things. |
ChiibiMay 16, 2017 7:08 PM
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| @Zefyris probably has some of the best comments on this thread describing the tsundere archetype. I would also note that while Asuka does fit the tsundere archetype, she is actually a fairly complex character with lots of psychological issues that cause her erratic behavior toward Shinji. Another character I can think of that is a good prototype tsundere is Akane from Ranma. It is apparent that her and Ranma do develop feelings for one-another but their personality clashes (often because Ranma is a bore but occasionally because Akane can be pretty nasty herself) cause a lot of the "tsun, tsun" in the relationship. Tsundere characters often can be very annoying and cliche. However, well-developed characters who have psychological reasons for being "tsun, tsun" toward the main character (like Asuka) are more interesting. |
Fvlminatvs said: Tsundere characters often can be very annoying and cliche. However, well-developed characters who have psychological reasons for being "tsun, tsun" toward the main character (like Asuka) are more interesting. That is why I love tsunderes. It is interesting, that conflict in behaviour and feelings and it is adorable in my opinion. Also they are lively caracters with strong opinions, not jelly-like people. It takes a strong caracter to deal with them, to put a crack in their wall and I like the development of relationships with tsundere types. |
Fvlminatvs said: Another character I can think of that is a good prototype tsundere is Akane from Ranma. It is apparent that her and Ranma do develop feelings for one-another but their personality clashes (often because Ranma is a bore but occasionally because Akane can be pretty nasty herself) cause a lot of the "tsun, tsun" in the relationship. Lol I hate that bitch. Quit the show because of her. Thank God Kagome was a vast improvement.... |
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Saji_Genpou said: That is why I love tsunderes. It is interesting, that conflict in behaviour and feelings and it is adorable in my opinion. Some of this is why I hate most tsundere characters. Too many of them have no real psychological, emotional, or social reasons for being conflicted over their feelings for their romantic interest. They are often used as boring cliches, cardboard cutouts, stock characters. Creators can just shortcut all attempts at character depth by lazily utilizing archetypes. I don't hate the tsundere archetype. I just hate how often it is used as a quick-and-dirty substitute for actual character psychology. A lot of creators don't use it as an archetype but as a ready-made character. Also they are lively caracters with strong opinions, not jelly-like people. If the creator is good, they can seem to be. The two best and most archetypal tsunderes I can think of that I already mentioned (Asuka and Akane) had strong outer personas but in reality were actually quite vulnerable. I find that intriguing. Their conflicting emotions regarding their romantic interest generates internal dilemmas and drama, which are the fuel for good storytelling. If the tsundere is simply as deep as the apparent archetype, I think they're not very interesting and actually quite annoying. Especially if they're violent, too. It's been done to death. It takes a strong caracter to deal with them, to put a crack in their wall and I like the development of relationships with tsundere types. Or a stupid character. Some tsundere characters (the flat, overly simplistic cliche kind) would, realistically, be eternally single and eternally blaming the men around them for not seeing how much of a catch they are (when in reality, nobody would want to put up with their crap). Give me (and the romantic subject) a reason to sympathize with her, a reason to look beyond the tough exterior and understand why she's conflicted and where the dilemma comes from and I'll be able to emotionally and intellectually invest more into not just her character but also the narrative as a whole. Too few creators do that with the tsundere and it is a shame. |
Fvlminatvs said: Too many of them have no real psychological, emotional, or social reasons for being conflicted over their feelings for their romantic interest. They are often used as boring cliches, cardboard cutouts, stock characters. Creators can just shortcut all attempts at character depth by lazily utilizing archetypes. I don't hate the tsundere archetype. I just hate how often it is used as a quick-and-dirty substitute for actual character psychology. A lot of creators don't use it as an archetype but as a ready-made character. I agree on that, it depends on execution and if used the way you described they can be annoying or at least dissappointing and I hate it too that we do not get many good tsunderes today. The two best and most archetypal tsunderes I can think of that I already mentioned (Asuka and Akane) had strong outer personas but in reality were actually quite vulnerable. I find that intriguing. Their conflicting emotions regarding their romantic interest generates internal dilemmas and drama, which are the fuel for good storytelling. You said it yourself, so if done correctly this archetype is intriguing and that is what I meant in my post. Asuka is my favourite caracter from Evangelion and one of the best examples of this archetype. There is another - and yes throw stones at me but hell - Chitoge from Nisekoi. Despite the series itself and all that can be said about it (like opinions how much it suck and the characters suck and everything suck). Even if this show isn't very good (personally I liked it) it has a potential, if done a bit better it would have been very good. But Chitoge...she has a reason for the conflict of feelings and she has good background to be complex tsundere although execution of her character is not so brilliant and thought through. However she is not far from being a really well designed character actually. I find her interesting anyway and she is my favourite caracter of Nisekoi :P Or a stupid character. Some tsundere characters (the flat, overly simplistic cliche kind) would, realistically, be eternally single and eternally blaming the men around them for not seeing how much of a catch they are (when in reality, nobody would want to put up with their crap). True, you're right, when I watch a story where tsundere is shallow brat I think: Why does he put up with this crap and only two reasons come to my mind, whether it is strength or stupidity. So as an archetype tsundere is the most interesting and entertaining type for me - if done and designed well witch caution and logic. Otherwise they can be just annying brats. Give me (and the romantic subject) a reason to sympathize with her, a reason to look beyond the tough exterior and understand why she's conflicted and where the dilemma comes from and I'll be able to emotionally and intellectually invest more into not just her character but also the narrative as a whole. Too few creators do that with the tsundere and it is a shame. Again I agree on that we need more good characters and it is a shame we do not get them often. |
| Tfw this thread is making me want to rewatch Toradora!. I never thought I'd see the day. @TheBrainintheJar From what I recall Taiga's actions do get treated seriously long-term. I can't say I distinctly recall the comedy in the early half, but all the students were scared of her and she was widely disliked by a lot of people. Iirc later on it was revealed that she was abused herself by her father while growing up, which is what led to her inappropriate behavior and gives a fairly realistic reason for said behavior. She manages to work past that by the end of the show. For that reason I take issue with calling Taiga a bad character. I wouldn't even consider her an unlikeable character by the end of the show even though her actions early on were clearly wrong. The ability to change, grow, and improve one's self is a highly admirable trait that multiple of my favorite characters possess. I would rather the schoolyard bully change themself than be condemned without a chance for doing the only thing they've ever known-- wrong as it may be. Toradora! ain't no Shigatsu. |
Ericonator said: Here's a good way to check if a character is a tsundere. Go to the character's info page, and if their voice actor is Rie Kugimiya there's a 99% chance that they're a tsundere. Well, if you actually see her page on MAL, you can see she has a lot of non-tsundere roles. https://myanimelist.net/people/8/Rie_Kugimiya?q=Rie%20Kugimiya For example, she is that slime girl in Queen's Blade, or that AI girl in Robotics;Notes, or the male lead in Zettai Karen Children. It's just that she is famous for her loli tsundere characters. kamalashki said: asuka is a better tsundere than tora or dora(i forgot which one was which) "tora" means "tiger" (an animal that is like a big striped cat), just like the female lead's name, "Taiga". "dora" stands for "dragon" (a mythical creature), which is related to the male lead's name "Ryuuji". _Ako_ said: I mean, a lifeless "baka onii-chan!" just wouldn't cut it, so there should be a "something" in the voice that just clicks it... A lifeless "baka onii-chan" is a sign of a Rei clone using meta-humor. Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou's resident Rei clone does it well. TheBrainintheJar said: I do think she's a horrible character. She's an abusive person who treats everyone like crap, yet her actions are often framed as cute and funny. Her actions and personality are dark, she makes everyone's reality more horrible. Framing it as funny is just lacking taste. I would say it's played for moe. Her current state is the result of parental neglect and general need to protect herself when she doesn't have much height or strength. And it's obvious it is possible and desirable for her to grow out of it. Fvlminatvs said: Some of this is why I hate most tsundere characters. Too many of them have no real psychological, emotional, or social reasons for being conflicted over their feelings for their romantic interest. They are often used as boring cliches, cardboard cutouts, stock characters. Creators can just shortcut all attempts at character depth by lazily utilizing archetypes. Well, in most anime, there are two staple reasons for being conflicted over the romantic interest. 1) Because the love interest is an Ordinary School Boy who is kind of pathetic and isn't the tsundere's equal in pretty much anything. 2) Because the first impression was bad. And subsequent circumstances conspire to convince the tsundere the guy is a total pervert. But really, isn't it pretty normal to be uncomfortable with one's sexuality as a teenager? |
flannan said: Ericonator said: Here's a good way to check if a character is a tsundere. Go to the character's info page, and if their voice actor is Rie Kugimiya there's a 99% chance that they're a tsundere. Well, if you actually see her page on MAL, you can see she has a lot of non-tsundere roles. https://myanimelist.net/people/8/Rie_Kugimiya?q=Rie%20Kugimiya For example, she is that slime girl in Queen's Blade, or that AI girl in Robotics;Notes, or the male lead in Zettai Karen Children. It's just that she is famous for her loli tsundere characters. kamalashki said: asuka is a better tsundere than tora or dora(i forgot which one was which) "tora" means "tiger" (an animal that is like a big striped cat), just like the female lead's name, "Taiga". "dora" stands for "dragon" (a mythical creature), which is related to the male lead's name "Ryuuji". _Ako_ said: I mean, a lifeless "baka onii-chan!" just wouldn't cut it, so there should be a "something" in the voice that just clicks it... A lifeless "baka onii-chan" is a sign of a Rei clone using meta-humor. Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou's resident Rei clone does it well. TheBrainintheJar said: I do think she's a horrible character. She's an abusive person who treats everyone like crap, yet her actions are often framed as cute and funny. Her actions and personality are dark, she makes everyone's reality more horrible. Framing it as funny is just lacking taste. I would say it's played for moe. Her current state is the result of parental neglect and general need to protect herself when she doesn't have much height or strength. And it's obvious it is possible and desirable for her to grow out of it. Fvlminatvs said: Some of this is why I hate most tsundere characters. Too many of them have no real psychological, emotional, or social reasons for being conflicted over their feelings for their romantic interest. They are often used as boring cliches, cardboard cutouts, stock characters. Creators can just shortcut all attempts at character depth by lazily utilizing archetypes. Well, in most anime, there are two staple reasons for being conflicted over the romantic interest. 1) Because the love interest is an Ordinary School Boy who is kind of pathetic and isn't the tsundere's equal in pretty much anything. 2) Because the first impression was bad. And subsequent circumstances conspire to convince the tsundere the guy is a total pervert. But really, isn't it pretty normal to be uncomfortable with one's sexuality as a teenager? You offer an alternate frame that's already included in mine - her violence is portrayed as cute and lighthearted. The thing is, I see nothing lighthearted about constantly beating up people. Without acknowledging the darkness, it comes off as taking a serious subject too lightly. I love humor about violence. Just look to Borderlands - at least it didn't ignore the darkness but responded to it. TripleSRank said: Tfw this thread is making me want to rewatch Toradora!. I never thought I'd see the day. @TheBrainintheJar From what I recall Taiga's actions do get treated seriously long-term. I can't say I distinctly recall the comedy in the early half, but all the students were scared of her and she was widely disliked by a lot of people. Iirc later on it was revealed that she was abused herself by her father while growing up, which is what led to her inappropriate behavior and gives a fairly realistic reason for said behavior. She manages to work past that by the end of the show. For that reason I take issue with calling Taiga a bad character. I wouldn't even consider her an unlikeable character by the end of the show even though her actions early on were clearly wrong. The ability to change, grow, and improve one's self is a highly admirable trait that multiple of my favorite characters possess. I would rather the schoolyard bully change themself than be condemned without a chance for doing the only thing they've ever known-- wrong as it may be. Toradora! ain't no Shigatsu. For at least half of the show - 14 episodes - her violence is portrayed as cute or funny. Also, no one really acknowledges Taiga is being abusive to her partner and would most likely be detained according to the law. There is a dissonance between tone and content. Chiibi said: TheBrainintheJar said: Taiga is a bad character because it's a violent person framed as funny. I wouldn't say she's always framed as "funny" though....told from Ryuuji's point of view, he doesn't find her violent acts "funny" at all but terrifying or mean-spirited. I think it's subjective to whether the viewer finds her "funny" or not. But I don't think she's a bad character; she is rather complex and she has many sides to her instead of being a one-note stereotype. Whether she's a "likable character", now that's a whole different matter. She's not my favorite tsundere but I do like her, even though she doesn't always do likable things. I don't see the darkness, the trauma, the anxiety of being constantly beaten. Actually, Ryuji takes it in his stride, bites the bullet - as if it's normal to be constantly under attack. I waited for Ryuji to do something about her abuse except just letting it slide. |
TheBrainintheJarMay 18, 2017 12:21 PM
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flannan said: Well, in most anime, there are two staple reasons for being conflicted over the romantic interest. 1) Because the love interest is an Ordinary School Boy who is kind of pathetic and isn't the tsundere's equal in pretty much anything. And this makes it totally unrealistic and unbelievable. Asuka may have acted superior, but the reality was that Shinji was already an accomplished pilot and Asuka wanted to impress him and surpass him. In comparison a lot of other tsundere characters are cheap knock-offs. #1 is your basic empowerment fantasy for some viewers. It may be enjoyable for them but it is about as nutritious emotionally, psychologically, and intellectually as your typical junk food. 2) Because the first impression was bad. And subsequent circumstances conspire to convince the tsundere the guy is a total pervert. Again, totally unrealistic. Unless he is "like, totally hot," these circumstances (which are usually overly contrived) pretty much make little sense. But really, isn't it pretty normal to be uncomfortable with one's sexuality as a teenager? Comfort with sexuality (and the lack thereof) during teenage years and discomfort with being attracted to a member of the opposite sex are not necessarily synonymous. And tsundere characters are not always teenagers but occasionally can be in their early 20s. If you like that stuff, though, it's fine. You do not have to defend your taste to me. If you think the tsundere trope is wonderful, that's fine. If you think every tsundere character is awesome, even the obviously cliched, paint-by-numbers, cookie-cutter prefab tsundere characters, good for you. Heck, I like some really poor B-grade science fiction films and if anybody tells me, "Dude, Ice Pirates is crap," I'm not going to get offended. But yeah, I do think a lot of creators pretty-much assign assembly-line prefab personalities to characters and tsundere is one of the most overused and cliched of the bunch. Saji_Genpou said: I agree on that, it depends on execution and if used the way you described they can be annoying or at least dissappointing and I hate it too that we do not get many good tsunderes today. You grok me. There is another - and yes throw stones at me but hell - Chitoge from Nisekoi. Never saw it so I'm in no position to throw stones. (Besides, I'm not sure I'd be all that interested in Nisekoi. I can take only so many high school settings. And besides, you really didn't sell the show to me, let's be honest.) But Chitoge...she has a reason for the conflict of feelings and she has good background to be complex tsundere although execution of her character is not so brilliant and thought through. However she is not far from being a really well designed character actually. I find her interesting anyway and she is my favourite caracter of Nisekoi :P Well, you've piqued my curiosity. In which way does this Chitose character's behavior fail to demonstrate her psychology well? True, you're right, when I watch a story where tsundere is shallow brat I think: Why does he put up with this crap and only two reasons come to my mind, whether it is strength or stupidity. If you drop the lightheartedness it could be a cautionary sort of tale in which a guy with low self-esteem ends up in an abusive relationship. However, that would bring in far too much realism and your standard tsundere-protagonist interaction is supposed to be comedic Bugs Bunny vs. Elmer Fudd slapstick. Again I agree on that we need more good characters and it is a shame we do not get them often. Sturgeon's Law strikes again. |
| Tsundere in animes : Adorable Tsundere in real life: detestable |
Fvlminatvs said: flannan said: Well, in most anime, there are two staple reasons for being conflicted over the romantic interest. 1) Because the love interest is an Ordinary School Boy who is kind of pathetic and isn't the tsundere's equal in pretty much anything. And this makes it totally unrealistic and unbelievable. Asuka may have acted superior, but the reality was that Shinji was already an accomplished pilot and Asuka wanted to impress him and surpass him. In comparison a lot of other tsundere characters are cheap knock-offs. #1 is your basic empowerment fantasy for some viewers. It may be enjoyable for them but it is about as nutritious emotionally, psychologically, and intellectually as your typical junk food. 2) Because the first impression was bad. And subsequent circumstances conspire to convince the tsundere the guy is a total pervert. Again, totally unrealistic. Unless he is "like, totally hot," these circumstances (which are usually overly contrived) pretty much make little sense. A romantic comedy is inherently unrealistic - it's all about improbable things happening leading to funny/romantic/erotic results. The question is - are things that happen improbable or impossible? Fvlminatvs said: If you like that stuff, though, it's fine. You do not have to defend your taste to me. If you think the tsundere trope is wonderful, that's fine. If you think every tsundere character is awesome, even the obviously cliched, paint-by-numbers, cookie-cutter prefab tsundere characters, good for you. Heck, I like some really poor B-grade science fiction films and if anybody tells me, "Dude, Ice Pirates is crap," I'm not going to get offended. But yeah, I do think a lot of creators pretty-much assign assembly-line prefab personalities to characters and tsundere is one of the most overused and cliched of the bunch. I would not say every tsundere is a literary masterpiece. After all, Louise "The Zero" Françoise Le Blanc de La Vallière exists. By I think most of them make workable characters, and some are pretty good. |
Chiibi said: This is correct. While many assume violence is a key trait of a Tsundere, the "Tsun" is closer to "harshness" than "violence". HaXXspetten said: Someone who hides a deep-rooted romantic affection by acting excessively violent towards the person they like. That is incorrect. "Violence" has nothing to do with being tsundere. Some of them are but some of them are not. While we're on the subject of Tsundere, it is important to distinguish between Tsundere Classic Vs. Modern. Classic tsundere are characterized by a gradual transition from "tsun" to "dere" over the course of the series and once this transition is made it is mostly permanent. Modern tsundere on the other hand will frequently alternate between "tsun" and "dere" throughout the course of the series. Tsundere which only react with violence to hide embarrassment, or aren't really "tsun" at all are actually an entirely separate personality type called Bodere, which are characterized by their use of violence in response to characters they care for. Helpful chart for anybody who's feeling Tl;dr about this post. http://imgur.com/gallery/yCJO1zx |
| tsun tsun (ツンツン?), meaning to turn away in disgust, and dere dere (デレデレ?) meaning to become lovely. |
Fvlminatvs said: Some of this is why I hate most tsundere characters. Too many of them have no real psychological, emotional, or social reasons for being conflicted over their feelings for their romantic interest. They are often used as boring cliches, cardboard cutouts, stock characters. Creators can just shortcut all attempts at character depth by lazily utilizing archetypes. This is still my favorite character archtype (for male characters at least but I like a lot of the female ones as well) so I'd like to take an in-depth look at a tsundere's behavior. Why is a character tsun to begin with? The reasons vary but from my anime and manga experiences, these few are the most common: *Defense. The tsundere normally comes from an unhappy family background; whether it's parental neglect, being abused, being bullied, or having their heart broken before. This makes it difficult for the character to trust others; ESPECIALLY a love interest (because falling in love puts you at your most vulnerable) Basically "If I close off my heart, nobody else will hurt me". It's kinda like...........trying to tame a feral cat. XD It might scratch and bite you at first but it's really quite sweet once it gets to know you. *Ignorance of Affection "Nobody was ever kind to me before so I don't know how to be nice." It's like the first reason.....but it's even more tragic. *Pride After keeping a front up for so long, the tsundere may feel embarrassed to show their true colors. They may be embarrassed that they fell for "such a loser"....or they are still struggling to understand what they are feeling. It's because of this, they have trouble being honest because they may not like this part of themselves. So they have to learn to accept "Ok, I love this person" first, before letting anybody ELSE know about it, especially the one they love. *Fear of Rejection To me, this seems like the biggest reason the tsundere will not confess their love (ESPECIALLY for male tsundere) They already think it's hopeless because their beloved is looking at someone else and they've already been shoved into "The Friend Zone". They normally continue to hide their feelings and support the MC from the shadows. (I will always always ALWAYS side with such characters. They just break my heart ;_;) |
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TheDarkLordOtaku said: Chiibi said: This is correct. While many assume violence is a key trait of a Tsundere, the "Tsun" is closer to "harshness" than "violence". That is incorrect. "Violence" has nothing to do with being tsundere. Some of them are but some of them are not. While we're on the subject of Tsundere, it is important to distinguish between Tsundere Classic Vs. Modern. Classic tsundere are characterized by a gradual transition from "tsun" to "dere" over the course of the series and once this transition is made it is mostly permanent. Modern tsundere on the other hand will frequently alternate between "tsun" and "dere" throughout the course of the series. Tsundere which only react with violence to hide embarrassment, or aren't really "tsun" at all are actually an entirely separate personality type called Bodere, which are characterized by their use of violence in response to characters they care for. Helpful chart for anybody who's feeling Tl;dr about this post. http://imgur.com/gallery/yCJO1zx Would you say that Taiga fits more the Bodere archetype? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
I think she fits into both because aside from being violent, she is also very tsun. Tsun defined as giving Ryuuji the cold shoulder/harsh words while hiding that he is actually very important to her. Like one really good example: But it's pretty easy to see that claim is BS from how upset she was earlier. :D |
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Chiibi said: Taiga is usually given as an example of a Modern Tsundere. While her progression is not totally unlike a Classic Tsundere towards the end of the series, many feel that her back and forth put her in that category. I wouldn't necessarily classify her as a Bodere, as she definitely uses words as well as fists. Additionally, the way she treats the protagonist is almost textbook "tsun" behavior. Many Bodere aren't even trying to be harsh to the protagonist, they basically can't help themselves. I think she fits into both because aside from being violent, she is also very tsun. Tsun defined as giving Ryuuji the cold shoulder/harsh words while hiding that he is actually very important to her. Like one really good example: But it's pretty easy to see that claim is BS from how upset she was earlier. :D |
TheDarkLordOtaku said: Chiibi said: Taiga is usually given as an example of a Modern Tsundere. While her progression is not totally unlike a Classic Tsundere towards the end of the series, many feel that her back and forth put her in that category. I wouldn't necessarily classify her as a Bodere, as she definitely uses words as well as fists. Additionally, the way she treats the protagonist is almost textbook "tsun" behavior. Many Bodere aren't even trying to be harsh to the protagonist, they basically can't help themselves. I think she fits into both because aside from being violent, she is also very tsun. Tsun defined as giving Ryuuji the cold shoulder/harsh words while hiding that he is actually very important to her. Like one really good example: But it's pretty easy to see that claim is BS from how upset she was earlier. :D Someone here argued, and I agreed, that tsundere is about covering up. It's about the Presentation of Self and how the Presentation stands in contrast to the character's inner worlds. Taiga's main behavior is just plain abuse. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: There are other personality types which deal more exclusively with abuse. Tsuntsun, for example, is always harsh. Tsundere doesn't have to be about covering up. For example, Classic Tsundere are harsh to the protagonist early in the series, because "Tsun" is their default behavior towards people they don't know. The story progression, and character interactions are what eventually change their behavior towards the protagonist to "Dere". TheDarkLordOtaku said: Taiga is usually given as an example of a Modern Tsundere. While her progression is not totally unlike a Classic Tsundere towards the end of the series, many feel that her back and forth put her in that category. I wouldn't necessarily classify her as a Bodere, as she definitely uses words as well as fists. Additionally, the way she treats the protagonist is almost textbook "tsun" behavior. Many Bodere aren't even trying to be harsh to the protagonist, they basically can't help themselves. Someone here argued, and I agreed, that tsundere is about covering up. It's about the Presentation of Self and how the Presentation stands in contrast to the character's inner worlds. Taiga's main behavior is just plain abuse. |
Swagernator said: You either love them or hate them. (if you hate them then sorry my friend you are just another random casual). ^ Gonna put this in a spoiler because it is quite long THANK FUCKING GOD SOMEONE ELSE UNDERSTANDS! I can die peacefully knowing at least one other person knows that Taiga is not a tsundere. |
SomeEdgeLord said: I WILL report you from this forum if this continues. In real life, I am one of the coldest, unsympathetic, people you'll ever know, who's grown up in an even colder household, you really don't want me to break my persona, I know how to make people feel bad. YearnsforAttention said: hm who has 1656 friends on MAL that's right me bye bye YearnsforAttention said: I don't want your approval how many damn times do I need to say it I enjoy irritating you I am gonna do things MY way |
NoobAsian said: Hey, so just going to hop in here to clear up a few things.Swagernator said: You either love them or hate them. (if you hate them then sorry my friend you are just another random casual). ^ Gonna put this in a spoiler because it is quite long THANK FUCKING GOD SOMEONE ELSE UNDERSTANDS! I can die peacefully knowing at least one other person knows that Taiga is not a tsundere. I think that one potential hang up with this argument is the concept of "dishonesty." This isn't a requirement for the personality type. Tsundere can be harsh to other characters w/o having feelings for them. While I can appreciate the argument that Taiga is not a Tsundere. I think you are pursuing the wrong argument for that case. Your argument hinges on the fact that her character progression eventually leads to her romantically involved with the MC. Therefore, because she's stopped (or at least eased up on) her "Tsun" tendencies, she must not be "Tsundere." Unfortunately, this is a common misunderstanding between Modern Tsundere and Classic Tsundere, the latter being an archetype very uncommon in modern series. Classic Tsundere are, by definition of the type, influenced by the succession of events. Classic Tsundere often have NO feelings for the protagonist to begin with. Many people would disagree with the argument that she's not a tsundere (mostly given the fact that she does some real cliche tsundere behavior e.g Insulting the MC after he cleaned her apartment, then blushing when she ate the food he prepared). A better argument would be to push against the popular belief that she's a Modern Tsundere, based on her character progression. |
TheDarkLordOtaku said: The word Tsun and Dere have to be in hand and hand dude I think that one potential hang up with this argument is the concept of "dishonesty." This isn't a requirement for the personality type. Tsundere can be harsh to other characters w/o having feelings for them thats why we don't call every crazy anime character a yandere just because they're crazy TheDarkLordOtaku said: the problem with calling Taiga a tsundere is that people always seem to forget she is rude to everyone except the guy she is in love with like KitamuraWhile I can appreciate the argument that Taiga is not a Tsundere. I think you are pursuing the wrong argument for that case. Your argument hinges on the fact that her character progression eventually leads to her romantically involved with the MC. Therefore, because she's stopped (or at least eased up on) her "Tsun" tendencies, she must not be "Tsundere." Unfortunately, this is a common misunderstanding between Modern Tsundere and Classic Tsundere, the latter being an archetype very uncommon in modern series. Classic Tsundere are, by definition of the type, influenced by the succession of events. Classic Tsundere often have NO feelings for the protagonist to begin with. if you want a true tsundere who didn't love the main character from the start Louise is the right pick TheDarkLordOtaku said: classic or modern does not matter here Many people would disagree with the argument that she's not a tsundere (mostly given the fact that she does some real cliche tsundere behavior e.g Insulting the MC after he cleaned her apartment, then blushing when she ate the food he prepared). A better argument would be to push against the popular belief that she's a Modern Tsundere, based on her character progression. she isn't a tsundere and calling her one would be like calling Ayase a yandere honestly  |
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TheDarkLordOtaku said: NoobAsian said: Hey, so just going to hop in here to clear up a few things.^ Gonna put this in a spoiler because it is quite long THANK FUCKING GOD SOMEONE ELSE UNDERSTANDS! I can die peacefully knowing at least one other person knows that Taiga is not a tsundere. I think that one potential hang up with this argument is the concept of "dishonesty." This isn't a requirement for the personality type. Tsundere can be harsh to other characters w/o having feelings for them. While I can appreciate the argument that Taiga is not a Tsundere. I think you are pursuing the wrong argument for that case. Your argument hinges on the fact that her character progression eventually leads to her romantically involved with the MC. Therefore, because she's stopped (or at least eased up on) her "Tsun" tendencies, she must not be "Tsundere." Unfortunately, this is a common misunderstanding between Modern Tsundere and Classic Tsundere, the latter being an archetype very uncommon in modern series. Classic Tsundere are, by definition of the type, influenced by the succession of events. Classic Tsundere often have NO feelings for the protagonist to begin with. Many people would disagree with the argument that she's not a tsundere (mostly given the fact that she does some real cliche tsundere behavior e.g Insulting the MC after he cleaned her apartment, then blushing when she ate the food he prepared). A better argument would be to push against the popular belief that she's a Modern Tsundere, based on her character progression. I don't really know what to say to someone who (claims he) has watched over 2000 titles and still doesn't understand what a tsundere is. |
SomeEdgeLord said: I WILL report you from this forum if this continues. In real life, I am one of the coldest, unsympathetic, people you'll ever know, who's grown up in an even colder household, you really don't want me to break my persona, I know how to make people feel bad. YearnsforAttention said: hm who has 1656 friends on MAL that's right me bye bye YearnsforAttention said: I don't want your approval how many damn times do I need to say it I enjoy irritating you I am gonna do things MY way |
NoobAsian said: What exactly are you disagreeing with? It'd be helpful to give the OP the most accurate description of tsundere, both modern and classic.TheDarkLordOtaku said: Hey, so just going to hop in here to clear up a few things. I think that one potential hang up with this argument is the concept of "dishonesty." This isn't a requirement for the personality type. Tsundere can be harsh to other characters w/o having feelings for them. While I can appreciate the argument that Taiga is not a Tsundere. I think you are pursuing the wrong argument for that case. Your argument hinges on the fact that her character progression eventually leads to her romantically involved with the MC. Therefore, because she's stopped (or at least eased up on) her "Tsun" tendencies, she must not be "Tsundere." Unfortunately, this is a common misunderstanding between Modern Tsundere and Classic Tsundere, the latter being an archetype very uncommon in modern series. Classic Tsundere are, by definition of the type, influenced by the succession of events. Classic Tsundere often have NO feelings for the protagonist to begin with. Many people would disagree with the argument that she's not a tsundere (mostly given the fact that she does some real cliche tsundere behavior e.g Insulting the MC after he cleaned her apartment, then blushing when she ate the food he prepared). A better argument would be to push against the popular belief that she's a Modern Tsundere, based on her character progression. I don't really know what to say to someone who (claims he) has watched over 2000 titles and still doesn't understand what a tsundere is. P.S. Completion list is legit. People forget that OVAs are usually 1~2 episodes, and hentai series rarely exceed 3 episodes. Watch enough of those, and anybody's list numbers go up quickly. ; ) |
Deknijff said: I'm having some trouble with this counter point. I never said they needed to be apart. That's why the "Tsuntsun" and "Deredere" exist as separate personality types from Tsunderes Modern and Classic. Are you having trouble with "dishonesty" if so, I think there is a potential misunderstanding of the translations of "Tsuntsun" and "Deredere." Tsuntsun refers to a general stand-offish disposition. You might think of "prickly" or "irritable" as reasonable translations. Thus, they often react harshly to those who interact with them. If you've ever interacted with someone and they blew up at you for no reason, and you thought to yourself "Geez, what's their deal?" that's basically the Tsuntsun part of the personality type. The "Deredere" is pretty easy, and most people don't have an issue understanding this one, but it obviously refers to a lovey dovey kind of affection. i.e blushing, growing romantically closer.The word Tsun and Dere have to be in hand and hand dude thats why we don't call every crazy anime character a yandere just because they're crazy Deknijff said: The fact that Taiga has a crush on someone else at the beginning of the series is mostly irrelevant. The point is that she has a general "tsuntsun" disposition to those around her. For the protagonist, this attitude occasionally fluctuates to "deredere" more frequently as the story progresses. the problem with calling Taiga a tsundere is that people always seem to forget she is rude to everyone except the guy she is in love with like Kitamura if you want a true tsundere who didn't love the main character from the start Louise is the right pick Deknijff said: I wouldn't disagree with that. Ayase's probably on a spectrum between Ojousama or Cool Beauty and Mayadere.classic or modern does not matter here she isn't a tsundere and calling her one would be like calling Ayase a yandere honestly |
TheDarkLordOtakuMay 24, 2017 6:11 PM
TheDarkLordOtaku said: you need to stop mentioning classic and modern please dude I'm having some trouble with this counter point. I never said they needed to be apart. That's why the "Tsuntsun" and "Deredere" exist as separate personality types from Tsunderes Modern and Classic. a tsundere is a tsundere and sure things can change with the progress of time but the core element still has to be there to count as one and as it stands Taiga is not a tsundere regardless of time period She doesn't pretend to dislike the person she loves. She praises him and thinks of him greatly regardless if people can see or not while treating a person she just met who she has no romantic feelings for like shit and to calls him a dog like Louise does towards her love interest if you want argue she is a tsuntsun and both deredere thats fine but they are not aimed towards the same person then at the same point in time so she is not a tsundere TheDarkLordOtaku said: I know what the words mean so no worries Are you having trouble with "dishonesty" if so, I think there is a potential misunderstanding of the translations of "Tsuntsun" and "Deredere." Tsuntsun refers to a general stand-offish disposition. You might think of "prickly" or "irritable" as reasonable translations. Thus, they often react harshly to those who interact with them. If you've ever interacted with someone and they blew up at you for no reason, and you thought to yourself "Geez, what's their deal?" that's basically the Tsuntsun part of the personality type. The "Deredere" is pretty easy, and most people don't have an issue understanding this one, but it obviously refers to a lovey dovey kind of affection. i.e blushing, growing romantically closer. TheDarkLordOtaku said: it is very relevant as this topic is about discussion what a tsundere is not tsuntsun since she treats him very kindly and gets embarrassed like a deredere might get.The fact that Taiga has a crush on someone else at the beginning of the series is mostly irrelevant. The point is that she has a general "tsuntsun" disposition to those around her. For the protagonist, this attitude occasionally fluctuates to "deredere" more frequently as the story progresses. and yes she stops being rude and bitchy towards Ryuuji later that is true but that is only normal progress since she is realising she has feelings for him if she had stayed tsun while finally knowing she loved him and then after that started acting dere after a certain amount of time then yeah she is a tsundere but she treats him nicely after realising her feelings have changed and seeing he is someone she is in love with so she is not a tsundere |
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Deknijff said: Look. I hear what you're saying. But it seems weird that this argument is so heavily reliant upon whether or not Classic vs Modern are really different things. They are. I'm pretty sure a significant amount of the anime community would agree. If you haven't already, perhaps you'll look into it, since the distinction was made to prevent these discussions which arise from Tsundere casting an overly broad umbrella without subtypes. The argument you gave is almost a word for word description of a Classic Tsundere, so it feels weird to argue against that, when I personally don't entirely disagree. I've also felt that Taiga might be better classified as classic.TheDarkLordOtaku said: you need to stop mentioning classic and modern please dude I'm having some trouble with this counter point. I never said they needed to be apart. That's why the "Tsuntsun" and "Deredere" exist as separate personality types from Tsunderes Modern and Classic. a tsundere is a tsundere and sure things can change with the progress of time but the core element still has to be there to count as one and as it stands Taiga is not a tsundere regardless of time period She doesn't pretend to dislike the person she loves. She praises him and thinks of him greatly regardless if people can see or not while treating a person she just met who she has no romantic feelings for like shit and to calls him a dog like Louise does towards her love interest if you want argue she is a tsuntsun and both deredere thats fine but they are not aimed towards the same person then at the same point in time so she is not a tsundere TheDarkLordOtaku said: I know what the words mean so no worries Are you having trouble with "dishonesty" if so, I think there is a potential misunderstanding of the translations of "Tsuntsun" and "Deredere." Tsuntsun refers to a general stand-offish disposition. You might think of "prickly" or "irritable" as reasonable translations. Thus, they often react harshly to those who interact with them. If you've ever interacted with someone and they blew up at you for no reason, and you thought to yourself "Geez, what's their deal?" that's basically the Tsuntsun part of the personality type. The "Deredere" is pretty easy, and most people don't have an issue understanding this one, but it obviously refers to a lovey dovey kind of affection. i.e blushing, growing romantically closer. TheDarkLordOtaku said: it is very relevant as this topic is about discussion what a tsundere is not tsuntsun since she treats him very kindly and gets embarrassed like a deredere might get.The fact that Taiga has a crush on someone else at the beginning of the series is mostly irrelevant. The point is that she has a general "tsuntsun" disposition to those around her. For the protagonist, this attitude occasionally fluctuates to "deredere" more frequently as the story progresses. and yes she stops being rude and bitchy towards Ryuuji later that is true but that is only normal progress since she is realising she has feelings for him if she had stayed tsun while finally knowing she loved him and then after that started acting dere after a certain amount of time then yeah she is a tsundere but she treats him nicely after realising her feelings have changed and seeing he is someone she is in love with so she is not a tsundere P.S. Taiga calls Ryuji a dog in the first two episodes if memory serves ; ) |
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