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#1
May 11, 2017 8:05 PM

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It's an interesting juxtaposition to see movements for socialist leaders (like Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders) gain traction while Venezuela, a government based on socialist ideology, has pretty much collapsed.

Do you guys think socialism works or is it just a fallacy young people are consumed in?
Modified by greenteaweasel, May 12, 2017 12:34 AM
 
#2
May 11, 2017 8:05 PM

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what does this have to do with CE?

well to answer it works just as much as capitalism

you should not really on to much of one or the other.
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types.
Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others."
 
#3
May 11, 2017 8:08 PM

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hazerddex said:
what does this have to do with CE?

well to answer it works just as much as capitalism

you should not really on to much of one or the other.


But isn't centrist politics the very thing most people are disillusioned with? I mean just look at France. People didn't vote Macron in because his politics was their sunfire choice; they picked him as a lessor of two evils and many voted in reluctance.
 
#4
May 11, 2017 8:17 PM

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the u.s is not a purely capitalist country.
this is just not true.
a capitalist country closer to a free market would be much more successful than outright socialism countries. without the povery too.

Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear
The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair
Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places
But we're trash, you and me
We're the litter on the breeze
We're the lovers on the streets
Just trash, me and you
It's in everything we do
It's in everything we do



 
#5
May 11, 2017 8:23 PM

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Well if Capitalism seems to work, why doesn't it?

Yomiyuki said:

a capitalist country closer to a free market would be much more successful than outright socialism countries. without the povery too.


I'd honestly want to live in a environmentally friendly Industrial Revolution or during Great Depression. Seems like I can be rich...
 
#6
May 11, 2017 8:30 PM

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_Ako_ said:
Well if Capitalism seems to work, why doesn't it?

Yomiyuki said:

a capitalist country closer to a free market would be much more successful than outright socialism countries. without the povery too.


I'd honestly want to live in a environmentally friendly Industrial Revolution or during Great Depression. Seems like I can be rich...
_Ako_ said:
Well if Capitalism seems to work, why doesn't it?

Yomiyuki said:

a capitalist country closer to a free market would be much more successful than outright socialism countries. without the povery too.


I'd honestly want to live in a environmentally friendly Industrial Revolution or during Great Depression. Seems like I can be rich...

i dont understand what youre trying to say, so im just gonna off on assumption here. im guessing you're saying capitalism doesn't work, but it did.
really well actually.
post WW2 was one of the greatest times for the economy as it related to workers and citizens.
this is a well known fact, and it was capitalism that did that.
granted, it got fucked up when ((((bankers))))) and crooked politicians went into power, regulations on wall street and corparations vanished, and power shifted disturbingly from the goverment and people, to companies. this has been going on for half a century now, and isn't capitalism at all. it's crony capitalism.
bernie's rant about DAH WUN PAHCENT isn't all that removed from what's actually going on.
we're not a free market, companies lobby constantly against bills and laws that would drastically improve quality of life, protecting the enviroment, etc..

Modified by Yomiyuki, May 11, 2017 8:35 PM

Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear
The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair
Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places
But we're trash, you and me
We're the litter on the breeze
We're the lovers on the streets
Just trash, me and you
It's in everything we do
It's in everything we do



 
#7
May 11, 2017 8:34 PM

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greenteaweasel said:
It's an interesting juxtaposition to see movements for socialist leaders (like Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders) gain traction while Venezuela, a government baaed on socialist ideology, has pretty much collapsed.

Do you guys think socialism works or is it just a fallacy young people are consumed in?


Are you really making the claim that Jeremy Corbyn or Bernie Sanders are leaders advocating for pure socialism? Question, is that not a "fallacy"? I believe that is a straw man, no?

As to answer your question, no, pure socialism doesn't work . . . Although the implication that the answer then is pure capitalism is again, a fallacy.
 
#8
May 11, 2017 8:41 PM

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Pirating_Ninja said:
greenteaweasel said:
It's an interesting juxtaposition to see movements for socialist leaders (like Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders) gain traction while Venezuela, a government baaed on socialist ideology, has pretty much collapsed.

Do you guys think socialism works or is it just a fallacy young people are consumed in?


Are you really making the claim that Jeremy Corbyn or Bernie Sanders are leaders advocating for pure socialism? Question, is that not a "fallacy"? I believe that is a straw man, no?

As to answer your question, no, pure socialism doesn't work . . . Although the implication that the answer then is pure capitalism is again, a fallacy.


Never did I mention pure socialism. There is no denying much of their appeal and politics is based on heavy tinges of socialism.

Centrist politics it is then? Why do we have so much disenchantment in our current political systems then?
 
#9
May 11, 2017 8:43 PM

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Yomiyuki said:
the u.s is not a purely capitalist country.
this is just not true.
a capitalist country closer to a free market would be much more successful than outright socialism countries. without the poverty too.


total capitalism would not end well as it would be capitalism without restrictions without morals,

there would be a lot of human experimentation, companies taking militaristic actions on rivals. just endless exploiting

without any government interference in a total capitalist country ti would collapse

you don't want total of ether ever.

there are a lot of dystopian novels on that subject.

but i don't think you read any of them.

but in terms of what some people will understand on the forums. think rapture from Bioshock.

that is what a Total capitalist society would end up as.


"among monsters and humans, there are only two types.
Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others."
 
May 11, 2017 8:44 PM

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Yomiyuki said:
post WW2 was one of the greatest times for the economy as it related to workers and citizens.

this is a well known fact, and it was capitalism that did that.
Actually, post WWII was an era hanging off the coat-tails of FDR, arguably one of the most socialist presidents we have ever had. Not only did he do considerable work for establishing unions but he was also the guy who passed Social Security among other extremely socialist policies. Similarly there were many public works projects funded entirely by the government.

The "capitalist" era that Ako is most likely referring to (if American history) was during the Gilded Age which could most closely represent the result of unhindered capitalism. The few elite were able to establish complete monopolies, meanwhile the standard of products (including food) were so appalling due to the lack of agencies like the FDA that you literally risked your life eating things like canned food. Not too mention this was before minimum wage or any type of worker's rights so most people worked 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week for a wage barely high enough to afford living in a ghetto and 1-2 meals a day.

Yomiyuki said:
granted, it got fucked up when ((((bankers))))) and crooked politicians went into power, regulations on wall street and corparations vanished, and power shifted disturbingly from the goverment and people, to companies.
That didn't follow WWII, arguably that type of stuff followed the Reagan years, and then was accelerated further during the Clinton years. (Ironically, again, it was FDR who passed most of the regulations on banks - and as mentioned above, in large part Reagan - Clinton who worked to get rid of them; Hence the irony in Trump the man of the people similarly removing evil banking regulations . . . It has worked great in the past, I don't see why it won't now -_-)

Modified by Pirating_Ninja, May 11, 2017 8:52 PM
 
May 11, 2017 8:48 PM

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I'm all for a free market when it comes to technology and entertainment but when it comes to peoples health, and safety that should be the governments responsibility.

that's why i want things like universal healthcare. companies first purpose for existing is to make a profit we should not expect them to actually be there to help out of the good of there hearts.
Modified by hazarddex, May 11, 2017 8:53 PM
"among monsters and humans, there are only two types.
Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others."
 
May 11, 2017 8:51 PM
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pure socialism and communism can only work once automation take over most human jobs and that includes automating innovation/inventions

thats why you will hear meme like Fully Automated Luxury Space Communism

one good thing about socialism is that you can just do parts of it so any welfare programs or government making jobs for people or even making free healthcare and free education can be considered socialist policies that are included on regular capitalistic economy, USA is a mix of capitalism and socialism for example but republican politicians are hard at work to make it pure capitalism



 
May 11, 2017 8:53 PM

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hazerddex said:
Yomiyuki said:
the u.s is not a purely capitalist country.
this is just not true.
a capitalist country closer to a free market would be much more successful than outright socialism countries. without the poverty too.


total capitalism would not end well as it would be capitalism without restrictions without morals,

there would be a lot of human experimentation, companies taking militaristic actions on rivals. just endless exploiting

without any government interference in a total capitalist country ti would collapse

you don't want total of ether ever.

there are a lot of dystopian novels on that subject.

but i don't think you read any of them.

but in terms of what some people will understand on the forums. think rapture from Bioshock.

that is what a Total capitalist society would end up as.



i didn't say total capitalism.
an actual regulated capitalist country is better off than what socialism can bring.

Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear
The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair
Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places
But we're trash, you and me
We're the litter on the breeze
We're the lovers on the streets
Just trash, me and you
It's in everything we do
It's in everything we do



 
May 11, 2017 8:55 PM

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I'm not sure. Let's take a look at Singapore. The government controls a lot over there, but they're not incompetent in their duties.

It's one of the safest places to live, has an awesome transportation system, good health care; all which are government run, but it's also a good financial hub for businesses as it allows free trade.

It's also apparently one of the least corrupt countries politically.
 
May 11, 2017 8:56 PM

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Pirating_Ninja said:
Yomiyuki said:
post WW2 was one of the greatest times for the economy as it related to workers and citizens.

this is a well known fact, and it was capitalism that did that.
Actually, post WWII was an era hanging off the coat-tails of FDR, arguably one of the most socialist presidents we have ever had. Not only did he do considerable work for establishing unions but he was also the guy who passed Social Security among other extremely socialist policies. Similarly there were many public works projects funded entirely by the government.

The "capitalist" era that Ako is most likely referring to (if American history) was during the Gilded Age which could most closely represent the result of unhindered capitalism. The few elite were able to establish complete monopolies, meanwhile the standard of products (including food) were so appalling due to the lack of agencies like the FDA that you literally risked your life eating things like canned food. Not too mention this was before minimum wage or any type of worker's rights so most people worked 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week for a wage barely high enough to afford living in a ghetto and 1-2 meals a day.

Yomiyuki said:
granted, it got fucked up when ((((bankers))))) and crooked politicians went into power, regulations on wall street and corparations vanished, and power shifted disturbingly from the goverment and people, to companies.
That didn't follow WWII, arguably that type of stuff followed the Reagan years, and then was accelerated further during the Clinton years. (Ironically, again, it was FDR who passed most of the regulations on banks - and as mentioned above, in large part Reagan - Clinton who worked to get rid of them; Hence the irony in Trump the man of the people similarly removing evil banking regulations . . . It has worked great in the past, I don't see why it won't now -_-)


fdr wasn't alive in the 50's.
the success of america in the 50's wasn't just because of his socialist policies.
and im pretty sure corruption started in the 60's. reagan was just the final shot in the head of u.s politics.

Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear
The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair
Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places
But we're trash, you and me
We're the litter on the breeze
We're the lovers on the streets
Just trash, me and you
It's in everything we do
It's in everything we do



 
May 11, 2017 8:59 PM

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Yomiyuki said:
Pirating_Ninja said:
Actually, post WWII was an era hanging off the coat-tails of FDR, arguably one of the most socialist presidents we have ever had. Not only did he do considerable work for establishing unions but he was also the guy who passed Social Security among other extremely socialist policies. Similarly there were many public works projects funded entirely by the government.

The "capitalist" era that Ako is most likely referring to (if American history) was during the Gilded Age which could most closely represent the result of unhindered capitalism. The few elite were able to establish complete monopolies, meanwhile the standard of products (including food) were so appalling due to the lack of agencies like the FDA that you literally risked your life eating things like canned food. Not too mention this was before minimum wage or any type of worker's rights so most people worked 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week for a wage barely high enough to afford living in a ghetto and 1-2 meals a day.

That didn't follow WWII, arguably that type of stuff followed the Reagan years, and then was accelerated further during the Clinton years. (Ironically, again, it was FDR who passed most of the regulations on banks - and as mentioned above, in large part Reagan - Clinton who worked to get rid of them; Hence the irony in Trump the man of the people similarly removing evil banking regulations . . . It has worked great in the past, I don't see why it won't now -_-)


fdr wasn't alive in the 50's.
the success of america in the 50's wasn't just because of his socialist policies.
and im pretty sure corruption started in the 60's. reagan was just the final shot in the head of u.s politics.
The removal of most policies (which btw would be more capitalist) started w/ Reagan (as well as the concept of chrony capitalism - i.e. trick-down economics).

As for the America, America was far more capitalist leading up to and during the Great Depression than in the 50's.
 
May 11, 2017 9:08 PM
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lets be real fully realizing capitalism means maximizing profit while minimizing cost like labor so the end goal of capitalism will always be full automation too (human workers are not needed at all since robots and artificial intelligence will become more cheaper sooner or later)
 
May 11, 2017 9:12 PM

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Pirating_Ninja said:
Yomiyuki said:

fdr wasn't alive in the 50's.
the success of america in the 50's wasn't just because of his socialist policies.
and im pretty sure corruption started in the 60's. reagan was just the final shot in the head of u.s politics.
The removal of most policies (which btw would be more capitalist) started w/ Reagan (as well as the concept of chrony capitalism - i.e. trick-down economics).

As for the America, America was far more capitalist leading up to and during the Great Depression than in the 50's.

corruption and deregulation lobbying started before reagan mate. im 100% sure of this.
im not defending more capitalism.
america in the 50's was just fine.

Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear
The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair
Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places
But we're trash, you and me
We're the litter on the breeze
We're the lovers on the streets
Just trash, me and you
It's in everything we do
It's in everything we do



 
May 11, 2017 9:12 PM

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j0x said:
lets be real fully realizing capitalism means maximizing profit while minimizing cost like labor so the end goal of capitalism will always be full automation too (human workers are not needed at all since robots and artificial intelligence will become more cheaper sooner or later)

i don't believe so, but the way our government is now, yes that would be their goal.

Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear
The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair
Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places
But we're trash, you and me
We're the litter on the breeze
We're the lovers on the streets
Just trash, me and you
It's in everything we do
It's in everything we do



 
May 11, 2017 9:17 PM

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Yomiyuki said:
Pirating_Ninja said:
The removal of most policies (which btw would be more capitalist) started w/ Reagan (as well as the concept of chrony capitalism - i.e. trick-down economics).

As for the America, America was far more capitalist leading up to and during the Great Depression than in the 50's.

corruption and deregulation lobbying started before reagan mate. im 100% sure of this.
im not defending more capitalism.
america in the 50's was just fine.
No, you literally are:
Yomiyuki said:
post WW2 was one of the greatest times for the economy as it related to workers and citizens.

this is a well known fact, and it was capitalism that did that.



However here is the thing - If America was at its greatest post-WWII, in a time where between its "worst time" (i.e. Great Depression) and "best time" (i.e. 50's according to you), when what had changed was an increase in socialism (and thus decrease in capitalism), how can you then say it was a result of capitalism? Now, I'm not so short-sighted as to claim it was a result of socialism, but you get the problem here? "Capitalism" decreased in the period after WWII so . . .
 
May 11, 2017 9:31 PM

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Pirating_Ninja said:
Yomiyuki said:

corruption and deregulation lobbying started before reagan mate. im 100% sure of this.
im not defending more capitalism.
america in the 50's was just fine.
No, you literally are:
Yomiyuki said:
post WW2 was one of the greatest times for the economy as it related to workers and citizens.

this is a well known fact, and it was capitalism that did that.



However here is the thing - If America was at its greatest post-WWII, in a time where between its "worst time" (i.e. Great Depression) and "best time" (i.e. 50's according to you), when what had changed was an increase in socialism (and thus decrease in capitalism), how can you then say it was a result of capitalism? Now, I'm not so short-sighted as to claim it was a result of socialism, but you get the problem here? "Capitalism" decreased in the period after WWII so . . .

that's not me defending total capitalism....
i said it was one of the best times for the economy, capitalism did that.
not me wanting total crony capitalism, or more capitalism, just regulated capitalism. like in the 50's. im not sure what's hard to understand about that.
granted, some of the stuff from the 50's was a little too socialist/communist, but that's preferable to what we have now.
im not sure of the correlation between capitalism and socialism.
just because it was less capitalistic doesn't mean it was socialism. and vice versa like you said.
america was at it's best in the 50's, when it was for the most part capitalistic. that's what i've been saying.

Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear
The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair
Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places
But we're trash, you and me
We're the litter on the breeze
We're the lovers on the streets
Just trash, me and you
It's in everything we do
It's in everything we do



 
May 11, 2017 9:52 PM

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It depends on what form of socialism it is but generally it works so long as the CIA doesn't try to shut it down from their attempt to put dying capitalism on life support.

 
May 12, 2017 2:38 AM

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Well, as the Godfather of thug life always says:
 
May 12, 2017 3:03 AM

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Of course it works, in theory. But the problem is people.

Personally, I'd prefer socialism over capitalism any day.

I respect your opinion as long as you respect mine.
 
May 12, 2017 4:36 AM

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Ratohnhaketon said:
Well, as the Godfather of thug life always says:

His conception of consent is questionable. He also has the common wrongful claim of what is Socialism.
Modified by traed, May 12, 2017 4:47 AM
 
May 12, 2017 4:44 AM

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It works as long as the kings and clergy get their bribes. Just like any other system really.
 
May 12, 2017 4:50 AM

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This thread is a mess. What does "pure" socialism even mean? What's "pure" or "total" capitalism? Laisezz faire? Is Hong Kong a free market? Milton Friedman during his life considered Hong Kong to be free market. I don't think Anarcho-capitalists would consider Hong Kong, free market. Provide historical examples if you want meaningful discussion.

SpamuraiSensei said:
I'm not sure. Let's take a look at Singapore. The government controls a lot over there
Singapore is number 2 in IEF. Singapore is considered to be the most free economically only surpassed by Hong Kong. Singapore however is socially authoritarian. You are mixing up social issues and economic issues.
incisorr said:
i love it when people start acting like some neutral almighty unbiased godly judge and they even believe their own shit, suddenly its not their thoughts and opinions anymore but the righteous justice god way, they are unbiased, non-subjective, they just are! To be honest, everyone is like this quite often, me included, but i don't forget myself and i still post a lot of personal shit which is what forums are made for , if they didn't want us to have our own style and posts it would be an article instead a forum thread.
 
May 12, 2017 5:40 AM

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traed said:
Ratohnhaketon said:
Well, as the Godfather of thug life always says:

His conception of consent is questionable. He also has the common wrongful claim of what is Socialism.
Certainly capitalism is not without fault. I also advise skepticism towards Ben Shapiro's enthusiasm for it as he's shown contempt towards the regulating the meatpacking industry in the 1900's. Additionally, I don't believe capitalism is the end all be all and I'm sure that better systems will arise in the future.

However, I'm a firm believer that our current system of capitalism is the closest towards individual freedom that humanity has ever seen. If there's a better system, I want it to be one that continues to preserve and empower free will & individual liberty.

And so I ask, does socialism provide that? Does socialism provide an incentive for innovation and a promotion of individuals being able to control and pioneer their own lives?
 
May 12, 2017 6:29 AM

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"solcialism HAS worked"
"here. have list of failed/short-lived micro states"







 
May 12, 2017 6:45 AM
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greenteaweasel said:
It's an interesting juxtaposition to see movements for socialist leaders (like Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders) gain traction while Venezuela, a government based on socialist ideology, has pretty much collapsed.


I mean, it's interesting until you dig deeper and realize JC and BS don't hold the same ideology as past Venezuelan governments.

Not to say that Venezuela wasn't socialist or JC/BS aren't socialist, but framing it as an interesting juxtaposition is strange. Socialists disagree with each other all the time and end up with wildly different ethical, economic and political demands.

 
May 12, 2017 7:01 AM

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Yomiyuki said:
_Ako_ said:
Well if Capitalism seems to work, why doesn't it?



I'd honestly want to live in a environmentally friendly Industrial Revolution or during Great Depression. Seems like I can be rich...
_Ako_ said:
Well if Capitalism seems to work, why doesn't it?



I'd honestly want to live in a environmentally friendly Industrial Revolution or during Great Depression. Seems like I can be rich...

i dont understand what youre trying to say, so im just gonna off on assumption here. im guessing you're saying capitalism doesn't work, but it did.
really well actually.
post WW2 was one of the greatest times for the economy as it related to workers and citizens.
this is a well known fact, and it was capitalism that did that.
granted, it got fucked up when ((((bankers))))) and crooked politicians went into power, regulations on wall street and corparations vanished, and power shifted disturbingly from the goverment and people, to companies. this has been going on for half a century now, and isn't capitalism at all. it's crony capitalism.
bernie's rant about DAH WUN PAHCENT isn't all that removed from what's actually going on.
we're not a free market, companies lobby constantly against bills and laws that would drastically improve quality of life, protecting the enviroment, etc..



I guess, if WWII were to happen earlier then America would have gotten out of Great Depression huh... Yeah, that still doesn't change my perspective that I want to go to that era and make money of it...

You are ranting about the cooked people that somehow made the system go ashtray... although I wonder who put them into power... That's quite interesting wouldn't you agree? Crony Capitalism... I've heard of such term before... Wait... Ohh yeah, it works because Trump will make America Great Again... :/

If Bernie's rant about the stuff you made... Yeah, I guess you're right, Socialism just kills the environment and corrupts people's mind, on the other hand, Capitalism saves earth, and saves people from oppression... Indeed, you've awaken me... Time to move to America and start earning bucks...
 
May 12, 2017 7:15 AM
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. No system will work to it's maximum potential if humans are supposed to be the main component. Humans vary to widely from one to another, and any large yet undefined percentage of them will likely be interested in further personal interests at the sake of sabotaging/loophole-abusing the system.
"I'd take rampant lesbianism over nuclear armageddon or a supervolcano any day." ~nikiforova
 
May 12, 2017 7:22 AM

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NekkoArc said:
This thread is a mess. What does "pure" socialism even mean? What's "pure" or "total" capitalism? Laisezz faire? Is Hong Kong a free market? Milton Friedman during his life considered Hong Kong to be free market. I don't think Anarcho-capitalists would consider Hong Kong, free market. Provide historical examples if you want meaningful discussion.

SpamuraiSensei said:
I'm not sure. Let's take a look at Singapore. The government controls a lot over there
Singapore is number 2 in IEF. Singapore is considered to be the most free economically only surpassed by Hong Kong. Singapore however is socially authoritarian. You are mixing up social issues and economic issues.


Um.. what? I don't know how you took that leap. I suggest you reread my post.
 
May 12, 2017 7:28 AM

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Here in south america we have a specie called ''Bolivarianism'', that's a mix of civic-humanist republicanism and the propely socialism, though Marx had criticized the venezuelans in the beginning. Anyway, the current bolivarianism, started with Hugo Chávez, has a lot of similarities with the socialism advocated by Heinz Dieterich, that proposes an economy based in the LTV.

It didn't work. The countries where the bolivarianism was used are, today, the most poor and violent of south America, specially Venezuela and Bolivia. I don't know if a closed economy demands a strongly morality and ethic, but in all cases the leaders rose to power talking about democracy, exaulting the nationalism and critizing the american imperialism. That strategy works because the free education, the shit free education, does everything to put a fake idea that bolivarianism just doesn't work because capitalism exists. These people grow up hating capitalism and loving their good leaders. Resuming, it's a north korea with a little more democracy.

I hate to tell this, but... Almost everyone who lived in a socialism system has a lot of bad stories to tell about it. Living in a first world country which always had a stable economy and talk about how brilliant is the socialism looks very weird here. Of course, a ''full-capitalism'' country maybe isn't the synonym of quality. I know that, but it's strongly necessary its presence. It's a very convenient excuse put the guilt of their failure in the CIA, in the industries or in the karma.
 
May 12, 2017 9:17 AM

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Has anyone proved that Venezula corresponds to socialism as its described by those who work with it?
WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things
 
May 12, 2017 9:17 AM

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SpamuraiSensei said:
NekkoArc said:
This thread is a mess. What does "pure" socialism even mean? What's "pure" or "total" capitalism? Laisezz faire? Is Hong Kong a free market? Milton Friedman during his life considered Hong Kong to be free market. I don't think Anarcho-capitalists would consider Hong Kong, free market. Provide historical examples if you want meaningful discussion.

Singapore is number 2 in IEF. Singapore is considered to be the most free economically only surpassed by Hong Kong. Singapore however is socially authoritarian. You are mixing up social issues and economic issues.


Um.. what? I don't know how you took that leap. I suggest you reread my post.
Are you not saying that socialism works(or at least partially) by citing Singapore as an example?

Not only is Singapore one of the world's freest economies, it only comes in close second to Hong Kong in Index of Economic Freedom. Hence, I thought citing Singapore as an example of "functioning" socialism was inappropriate.

This goes back to my original statement that words like "vaue" and "total" are vague to the point of meaninglessness.

Singapore while the government doesn't interfere much in the economy(at least compared to the rest of the world), the country is infamous for restricting people's freedom in their private lives(banning chewing gums, sedition act, etc). So, I thought you were mixing them up.
incisorr said:
i love it when people start acting like some neutral almighty unbiased godly judge and they even believe their own shit, suddenly its not their thoughts and opinions anymore but the righteous justice god way, they are unbiased, non-subjective, they just are! To be honest, everyone is like this quite often, me included, but i don't forget myself and i still post a lot of personal shit which is what forums are made for , if they didn't want us to have our own style and posts it would be an article instead a forum thread.
 
May 12, 2017 10:19 AM

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Yeah it does. We've been told how capitalism 'works' because of how it keeps feeding the rich, and told socialism does not because it feeds the poor and needy.

Jesus was a socialist and Pope Francis seem to be one too, by the way.

 
May 12, 2017 10:26 AM

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Oh I'm sure socialism works if you like hundreds of thousands of people dying under every regime, widespread starvation, punishment and repression for dissenters/individuality so much that they are deemed public enemies to the political and social realms of their societies, and a line of hereditary dictators. Try reading Thomas More's Utopia, it explains why the utopian society is bound to be a dystopia.

inb4butreelsozializmhasntbeentriedyet
Modified by Rinshan-san, May 12, 2017 10:31 AM
"If you died, would anyone care? Would they really care? Maybe, they'd cry for a day. But, let's be honest no one would give a shit. They wouldn't. The few people that would feel obligated to go to your funeral would probably be annoyed and leave as early as possible. That's who you are. That's what you are. You are nothing to anyone. To everyone."
-Mr. Robot

"I can take another name, and build a new life.. But on the inside I'll always have that instinct, no matter how much I hate it. I'm yakuza through and through. Guile only gets you so far in this game. Remember that. You won't get another chance."
-Kiryu Kazuma
 
May 12, 2017 11:06 AM

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Socialism might be a bit much, but I'm surely not opposed to social welfare.

To me a little bit more of a communist spirit would do wonders for America ^_^ Not that we actually have to do anything more than have social welfare policies.
 
May 12, 2017 11:06 AM

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Jeremy Corbyn is a socilaist, but Bernie Sanders really isn't. Bernie Sanders is in favor of capitalism. Keynesian capitalism to be more specific.

 
May 12, 2017 1:37 PM
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NekkoArc said:
This thread is a mess. What does "pure" socialism even mean? What's "pure" or "total" capitalism? Laisezz faire? Is Hong Kong a free market? Milton Friedman during his life considered Hong Kong to be free market. I don't think Anarcho-capitalists would consider Hong Kong, free market. Provide historical examples if you want meaningful discussion.


there is no real socialism and communism done yet in history
you can read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy
 
May 12, 2017 4:32 PM

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Would everyone on the right agree to stop claiming MLK as an ally in spirit against "reverse racism" if everyone on the left agreed to stop claiming Jesus as a socialist?
~To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their waifus~
 
May 12, 2017 6:21 PM

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All modern Western developed countries have some socialist policies. But since OP didn't define what socialism is for the topic, I've no idea what kind of discussion you're really looking for.
 
May 12, 2017 6:25 PM

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Tachii said:
All modern Western developed countries have some socialist policies. But since OP didn't define what socialism is for the topic, I've no idea what kind of discussion you're really looking for.

agreed
for conflict theorists, socialism is the overthrow of capitalism and transition to communism, probably way different than what op meant
op needs moar to be pacific
 
May 12, 2017 6:35 PM
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j0x said:
there is no real socialism and communism done yet in history


While I agree that in a post-scarcity world something "similar" to socialism could exist, the idea that communism or socialism has not been attempted is blatantly false. No socialist or communist ever said "well we have to wait until science makes replicators so support capitalism until then!" The history of communism and socialism is one of unmitigated disaster - even Nordic "Socialism" relies on private property capitalism to generate the profits that it then "shares" a portion of. Any attempt of collective property - the fundamental difference between capitalism and socialism, has never succeed and never will , even in a post scarcity world.

 
May 12, 2017 6:52 PM
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Takuan_Soho said:
j0x said:
there is no real socialism and communism done yet in history


While I agree that in a post-scarcity world something "similar" to socialism could exist, the idea that communism or socialism has not been attempted is blatantly false. No socialist or communist ever said "well we have to wait until science makes replicators so support capitalism until then!" The history of communism and socialism is one of unmitigated disaster - even Nordic "Socialism" relies on private property capitalism to generate the profits that it then "shares" a portion of. Any attempt of collective property - the fundamental difference between capitalism and socialism, has never succeed and never will , even in a post scarcity world.



the so called communism in history still have governments or state

there is a reason the meme Fully Automated Luxury Space Communism is spreading because in this futuristic society where everybody can be self-sustaining with abundant resources in space and that humanity can even reach transhumanism and only need like solar energy to live, this is the ultimate dream of technological progressives out there unless super artificial intelligence decides that humanity needs to die
 
May 12, 2017 7:01 PM

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Ratohnhaketon said:
traed said:

His conception of consent is questionable. He also has the common wrongful claim of what is Socialism.
Certainly capitalism is not without fault. I also advise skepticism towards Ben Shapiro's enthusiasm for it as he's shown contempt towards the regulating the meatpacking industry in the 1900's. Additionally, I don't believe capitalism is the end all be all and I'm sure that better systems will arise in the future.

However, I'm a firm believer that our current system of capitalism is the closest towards individual freedom that humanity has ever seen. If there's a better system, I want it to be one that continues to preserve and empower free will & individual liberty.

And so I ask, does socialism provide that? Does socialism provide an incentive for innovation and a promotion of individuals being able to control and pioneer their own lives?


Yes, it does but it depends on what implementation of socialism though. You don't have as much choice in some authoritarian state-capitalist system which only the biggest LARPing tankie idiots would even count as socialism while most reject it. In capitalism your ability to make decisions of what career you pick is limited by how much the job pays and your ability to pay for the training to obtain such a job. From class immobility you have quite few choices of what you work and what kind of life you live from how much money you have. To think people choose poverty is a farce created by the elites. The incentive for innovation would be better because instead of a profit driven mindset you have better focus on benefit for ones self or people in general or for a bit of fame and praise over it.

Salvatia said:

"solcialism HAS worked"
"here. have list of failed/short-lived micro states"

You didn't watch it did you? It clearly explains how it ending wasn't by their own hands and how much it improved living conditions. Also no it wasn't just a few micro-states.

Arent you from India or something?

 
May 12, 2017 7:06 PM
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j0x said:
the so called communism in history still have governments or state


And there will always be a government or a state if only to enforce criminal laws.

As for the rest, don't mind discussing the SF possibility of Communism, but the actual outcome has already been predicted over 120 years ago. I give you this: the first dystopian work (and damn funny still and even better only 4 pages long).

http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/cultn/cultn014.pdf
 
May 12, 2017 7:16 PM
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Takuan_Soho said:
j0x said:
the so called communism in history still have governments or state


And there will always be a government or a state if only to enforce criminal laws.


sure but a self-sustaining transhuman can just move away from a big society that have dangerously high crime

and besides you are forgetting virtual reality that can evolve to simulated reality so people in those future can avoid conflicts plus with advance science and technology like that there is no reason to not regulate if not remove all irrational criminal tendencies like violence/sadism
 
May 12, 2017 7:19 PM
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j0x said:
there is no reason to regulate if not remove all irrational criminal tendencies like violence/sadism


Seriously, read the story, it may do you some good.

So basically, we will have complete freedom as long as we use this freedom to completely accept what society tells us is the truth.

Don't quite see that working out as well as you think....
 
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