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huge lack of respectable female protagonists or heroines in anime?

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May 12, 2017 9:55 AM

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Geez, I don't agree with OP, but a part of the forum really has a small problem with being defensive in an ''aggresive/annoyed'' way.

I mean isn't it good that this stuff is discussed in a forum instead of being stated as a fact in some article?
 
May 12, 2017 10:09 AM
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It all depends on what kind of shows you're watching, OP. If you watch moe shows, you're gonna find a lot of moeblobs.
 
May 12, 2017 10:18 AM

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Azurblau said:
Geez, I don't agree with OP, but a part of the forum really has a small problem with being defensive in an ''aggresive/annoyed'' way.

I mean isn't it good that this stuff is discussed in a forum instead of being stated as a fact in some article?

MAL tends to do this a lot when OPs are troll-ish. Which is kind of like this case.

I'd gladly discuss the representation of women in anime but it's impossible under the basis that these characters have to earn some kind of "respect" from the viewer. Much less when this respect is conditioned to whatever random unrelated situation like not following archetypes or not being (sigh) otaku bait.
Modified by jal90, May 12, 2017 2:22 PM
 
May 12, 2017 12:27 PM
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there are a lot, they just are not as popular.
You seem to be arguing for two different things. If you want to watch the specific anime, then I can recommend you them.
But if you want them to be popular, well Im afraid that isnt going to happen anytime soon. Only time will tell

Also it is important to note that most people do not like anime for emotional depth in male or female characters, which is what it seems like you are referring to. Whereas most archetypes revolve around shallow perception of a personality type. Which can have its own merits. Im not gonna say any way is better, but I can sort of get your mind set.
Modified by metem_psychosis, May 12, 2017 12:35 PM
 
May 12, 2017 2:18 PM

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Male characters are pretty hit-or-miss too.

I personally favor female characters in anime because I find them more relatable, so I'm pretty quick to defend female characters since I doubt they would be criticized as much if they were male and has the same characterization.
 
May 12, 2017 6:00 PM

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ArtIsAnExplosion said:
Onyx-Sentinel said:


Lots of shows that push a strong women protagonist can be bad, that's bias.

It also gets tiring of shows forcing strong/independent women in them, it happens all the time in Western TV, it would ruin anime if the same thing happened.


I believe it, but from my experience that hasn't happened yet. Maybe with Black Lagoon, which I found a bit boring, but I'm not sure we can consider Revy a protagonist.

Agree 100% about the second paragraph, but it's not what this is about though. They shouldn't be forced in the shows, they should just be a part of it. I'm not advocating that anime should get rid of the helpless kind of girls, but it should be even. Not to fill some bs quota, but because it would make the shows better.



"They shouldn't be forced in the shows, they should just be a part of it."
" I'm not advocating that anime should get rid of the helpless kind of girls, but it should be even. "

Do you see the contradiction?
~ They shouldn't be forced in the shows, But they should be even...

I say we shouldn't trample on the creator's vision for the sake of social views.

"but because it would make the shows better."
I disagree with this, Women should stay women.
Modified by Nyu, May 12, 2017 6:11 PM
 
May 12, 2017 6:09 PM

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flannan said:


Onyx-Sentinel said:


So in Claymore women aren't women? Everything you said about the show is completely unrealistic. So Suspension of disbelief is non-existent.

Claymores are scary magically engineered weapons of destruction in the shape of women. They aren't "realistic" in any way, nor they are meant to be.
Next time, will you be complaining about realism of Kantai Collection?


I'm not asking for the show to be ultra realistic, but if it can't even manage essentials like Suspension of disbelief... It's objectively a bad show.
 
May 12, 2017 6:12 PM

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In fairness, the majority of anime otakus are male. I think the ratio for males to females is something like 7:3? I would love more characters like Shirayuki or Rem, though. Then again, gotta love those cute dere girls. #WaifuMaterial
 
May 12, 2017 6:37 PM
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Onyx-Sentinel said:
imbricator said:

The Claymore women basically don't engage in any performative activity relating to "traditional" female gender roles - maternal, romantic, sexual, physical weakness (the strongest female warriors are categorically stronger than the males).


So in Claymore women aren't women? Everything you said about the show is completely unrealistic. So Suspension of disbelief is non-existent.


What century do you live in again?

It's extremely offensive and ignorant for you to say that a woman needs to perform traditional gender roles to be a woman. A woman does not need to love kids to be a woman. A man does not need to love sports to be a man. A woman does not need to be obsessed with romantic stuff to be a woman. A man does not need to be aggressive and strong to be a man. It's very saddening to see your intolerance.

As for Claymore women being physically more powerful than the men, Claymore is a fantasy story featuring human-eating monsters. It's a fictional story in a fantasy universe. Claymore is not unrealistic because the women do not display maternal or romantic feelings (especially since they're not relevant to the plot because - shockingly - stories with female leads are sometimes not romances!). Claymore is unrealistic because it's about fighting giant monsters, just as Attack on Titan is unrealistic because it's about fighting giant monsters, just as Naruto is unrealistic because it's about breathing fire and making electricity come out of your body, just as Sword Art Online is unrealistic because it's about living in a video game, just as Harry Potter is unrealistic because magic exists in that universe...

 
May 12, 2017 7:02 PM

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imbricator said:
Onyx-Sentinel said:


So in Claymore women aren't women? Everything you said about the show is completely unrealistic. So Suspension of disbelief is non-existent.


What century do you live in again?

It's extremely offensive and ignorant for you to say that a woman needs to perform traditional gender roles to be a woman. A woman does not need to love kids to be a woman. A man does not need to love sports to be a man. A woman does not need to be obsessed with romantic stuff to be a woman. A man does not need to be aggressive and strong to be a man. It's very saddening to see your intolerance.

As for Claymore women being physically more powerful than the men, Claymore is a fantasy story featuring human-eating monsters. It's a fictional story in a fantasy universe. Claymore is not unrealistic because the women do not display maternal or romantic feelings (especially since they're not relevant to the plot because - shockingly - stories with female leads are sometimes not romances!). Claymore is unrealistic because it's about fighting giant monsters, just as Attack on Titan is unrealistic because it's about fighting giant monsters, just as Naruto is unrealistic because it's about breathing fire and making electricity come out of your body, just as Sword Art Online is unrealistic because it's about living in a video game, just as Harry Potter is unrealistic because magic exists in that universe...



"What century do you live in again?

It's extremely offensive and ignorant for you to say that a woman needs to perform traditional gender roles to be a woman. A woman does not need to love kids to be a woman. A man does not need to love sports to be a man. A woman does not need to be obsessed with romantic stuff to be a woman. A man does not need to be aggressive and strong to be a man. It's very saddening to see your intolerance."

I live in the same century as you. Just because someone has an opposing view from you, does not mean they are backwards and uncivilised.

I never said women have to perform to those gender roles to be women, its just that women naturally partake in those gender roles and are Biologically ingrained in them, just like aggression is biologically ingrained in men. Do those kinds of women not count as women to you? Saddening to see this kind of intolerance.

"Claymore is not unrealistic because the women do not display maternal or romantic feelings" Oh so I guess natural human emotions aren't considered realism.

"shockingly - stories with female leads are sometimes not romances!" Out of all the romances I've watched, all the leads have been Male... So target missed?

A show or work of fiction isn't just unrealistic because of extraordinary elements added into them, they can be just as unrealistic by ignoring basic biology and Society.
 
May 12, 2017 8:31 PM
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> Doesn't understand basic figures of speech
> Ignores feminism + advances a straw man argument, a logical fallacy
> Refuses to distinguish between fiction and reality, and also refuses to recognize the right of an author to craft a story, one which the above poster hasn't read
> Assumes that his personal experience is somehow representative of the entire body of work in a genre (of all the romance stories I've read, the leads have been females...check mate)
> Again tries to insert the "basic biology" argument into a fantasy story. A person growing wings isn't basic biology. Why is that tolerable when deviating from "expected" emotional displays is not?

This isn't Gender Studies 101 - that's something you intend to learn. This is the most basic stuff you should be aware of as a member of society.
 
May 12, 2017 8:33 PM

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well yeah because in every known figment of primitive humanity women are supposed to be in the kitchen and it's sinful to most traditional cultures to portray them as greater than men.

imo women are supposed to be in the kitchen and they should take care of kids/the house, as i take on a more traditional approach of life, and a lot of people are like me.

so sorry to burst your bubble.

the only things that dropped lower than my balls during puberty were my grades and my self-esteem
 
May 12, 2017 8:34 PM

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imbricator said:
> Doesn't understand basic figures of speech
> Ignores feminism + advances a straw man argument, a logical fallacy
> Refuses to distinguish between fiction and reality, and also refuses to recognize the right of an author to craft a story, one which the above poster hasn't read
> Assumes that his personal experience is somehow representative of the entire body of work in a genre (of all the romance stories I've read, the leads have been females...check mate)
> Again tries to insert the "basic biology" argument into a fantasy story. A person growing wings isn't basic biology. Why is that tolerable when deviating from "expected" emotional displays is not?

This isn't Gender Studies 101 - that's something you intend to learn. This is the most basic stuff you should be aware of as a member of society.

wohohohohhohoohHOHO CALLED THE PHUCK OUT DUDE LMAO YOU'RE SAVAGE ASF FOR BEING A SOCIAL MEDIA TEAM DUDE

the only things that dropped lower than my balls during puberty were my grades and my self-esteem
 
May 12, 2017 8:40 PM

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You my friend, is the true heroine! You're bringing the feminist side out of everybody! MAL is a much better place when it's like this.
Must I add, everything you're looking for in terms of respectable, female protagonists can be found in a very beautiful anime called HOTD or better yet, give Queens Blade a try. Thank me later ;)
 
May 12, 2017 8:41 PM
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dickkickem said:
imbricator said:
> Doesn't understand basic figures of speech
> Ignores feminism + advances a straw man argument, a logical fallacy
> Refuses to distinguish between fiction and reality, and also refuses to recognize the right of an author to craft a story, one which the above poster hasn't read
> Assumes that his personal experience is somehow representative of the entire body of work in a genre (of all the romance stories I've read, the leads have been females...check mate)
> Again tries to insert the "basic biology" argument into a fantasy story. A person growing wings isn't basic biology. Why is that tolerable when deviating from "expected" emotional displays is not?

This isn't Gender Studies 101 - that's something you intend to learn. This is the most basic stuff you should be aware of as a member of society.

wohohohohhohoohHOHO CALLED THE PHUCK OUT DUDE LMAO YOU'RE SAVAGE ASF FOR BEING A SOCIAL MEDIA TEAM DUDE


I'm legitimately trying to participate in a serious discussion too.

The lack of inspiring female characters is huge in entertainment media beyond anime/manga. It's been theorized since almost the beginning of slash fiction that the tendency for female fans to ship male characters with other male characters is a reaction to the lack of female characters they consider heroic enough to be "worthy" of a male character, while other male characters are portrayed as equally heroic, and therefore worthy.

A gross oversimplification can be seen through analyzing the fights in the Naruto manga. Out of all of the fights, there has never been a fight fitting these criteria:

>named female character wins
> without assistance from another character, male or female
> against named character, male or female

Each victory a female character has experienced has been with the assistance of others, while there are many named male characters who have won one-on-one fights against named male and female characters.
 
May 12, 2017 8:41 PM

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Look at my profile pic.
Go read Battle Angel Alita right NOW!!! If you want a strong female lead that will never be animated.

You're welcome
 
May 12, 2017 9:34 PM

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cross ange tenshi ryuu no rondo
claymore
fate/prototype
utena
FLCL

off the top of my head anyway
 
May 12, 2017 11:06 PM

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TheBrainintheJar said:
Alrighty.

Show the abundance of complex, well-written, deep and non-archetypical male characters.

... and the fans here will tell you they are neither respectable nor inspiring.
There are only a few archetypes that a man can follow to be respectable. Anything else gets no respect. Because sexism.
Sure, Oregairu's Hikigaya Hachiman is not archetypical and fresh. I don't think he gets any respect.

Azurblau said:
Geez, I don't agree with OP, but a part of the forum really has a small problem with being defensive in an ''aggresive/annoyed'' way.

I mean isn't it good that this stuff is discussed in a forum instead of being stated as a fact in some article?

Well, yeah, it's a pretty good topic to discuss, if you get your facts straight instead of writing provocations. But that almost never happens on these forums.

jal90 said:
I'd gladly discuss the representation of women in anime but it's impossible under the basis that these characters have to earn some kind of "respect" from the viewer. Much less when this respect is conditioned to whatever random unrelated situation like not following archetypes or not being (sigh) otaku bait.

This. So much this.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
I'm not asking for the show to be ultra realistic, but if it can't even manage essentials like Suspension of disbelief... It's objectively a bad show.

Have you ever seen Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann?
It breaks even the heaviest suspension of disbelief, and the finale is about galaxy-sized robots made mostly of pure passion. Tensions were so high that the team pet mole spontaneously evolved into humanoid form.
Yet, it proudly takes its place in anime hall of fame.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
A show or work of fiction isn't just unrealistic because of extraordinary elements added into them, they can be just as unrealistic by ignoring basic biology and Society.

Basic biology? Every super-powerful fighter in anime violates all that.
Now, I haven't actually seen Claymore beyond 1 episode, but from what I've heard, Claymores are some human-demon hybrid, and they have full license to violate biology and physics as much as they want.
Fantasy!
 
May 12, 2017 11:53 PM

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I really don't see how this is a problem.
 
May 13, 2017 12:06 AM

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flannan said:
TheBrainintheJar said:
Alrighty.

Show the abundance of complex, well-written, deep and non-archetypical male characters.

... and the fans here will tell you they are neither respectable nor inspiring.
There are only a few archetypes that a man can follow to be respectable. Anything else gets no respect. Because sexism.
Sure, Oregairu's Hikigaya Hachiman is not archetypical and fresh. I don't think he gets any respect.

Azurblau said:
Geez, I don't agree with OP, but a part of the forum really has a small problem with being defensive in an ''aggresive/annoyed'' way.

I mean isn't it good that this stuff is discussed in a forum instead of being stated as a fact in some article?

Well, yeah, it's a pretty good topic to discuss, if you get your facts straight instead of writing provocations. But that almost never happens on these forums.

jal90 said:
I'd gladly discuss the representation of women in anime but it's impossible under the basis that these characters have to earn some kind of "respect" from the viewer. Much less when this respect is conditioned to whatever random unrelated situation like not following archetypes or not being (sigh) otaku bait.

This. So much this.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
I'm not asking for the show to be ultra realistic, but if it can't even manage essentials like Suspension of disbelief... It's objectively a bad show.

Have you ever seen Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann?
It breaks even the heaviest suspension of disbelief, and the finale is about galaxy-sized robots made mostly of pure passion. Tensions were so high that the team pet mole spontaneously evolved into humanoid form.
Yet, it proudly takes its place in anime hall of fame.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
A show or work of fiction isn't just unrealistic because of extraordinary elements added into them, they can be just as unrealistic by ignoring basic biology and Society.

Basic biology? Every super-powerful fighter in anime violates all that.
Now, I haven't actually seen Claymore beyond 1 episode, but from what I've heard, Claymores are some human-demon hybrid, and they have full license to violate biology and physics as much as they want.
Fantasy!


I do think there is a problem of representation of females in fiction, but I can't just point out bad examples. I need examples of good characters so as a critic and a writer, I'll have something to aim for. That said, in general I found anime to be quite successful with female characters, but unlike Western cinema there are a lot of female-dominated stories.

The whole focus on 'strength' is quite creepy if you ask me. I want to see characters like Max Cohen - psychological, deep, charismatic and narrative-creating.
WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things
 
May 13, 2017 12:28 AM

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Sure, good female protagonist are lacking. But I disagree about the top 50 character thing. There is notable female characters there. Ex: Mikasa, it can't be helped that she is overprotective for eren but she is a badass to the point she didn't hesitate to cut her own fellow companion. C.C., looks like a kuudere type but she is smart enough to help Lelouch in various things. Kurisu, she is obviously a tsundere but not the type that can be found everywhere since until the time machine were really created, she believe in what she believed. And some others too..
And picking shirayuki as an example is a bad idea since she is actually pretty bland. Yona is a far better example. If you want to find a good female MC, then don't watch common type anime.


I seriously need to stop watching idol anime... The fact that I can't afford to buy their CDs yet keep making my heart broken..
(つд⊂)
 
May 13, 2017 12:46 AM

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Erin from Kemono no Souja Erin and once again, Nausicaa from Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind (manga) are two of the greatest female protagonists I've seen in all of anime and manga.
 
May 13, 2017 1:01 AM
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Maybe you should stop watching harem shows like high school DXD and watch shoes that have competent female characters
 
May 13, 2017 1:11 AM

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For a start you're never gonna please everyone with one character, male or female. Some people's ideal female character might be a super cool kickass gal who does everything herself and don't need no man. But some people may prefer a more flawed character. The people who prefer the former will call the latter a "weak female character" and perhaps even "sexist" depending on what the flaws are; and the people who prefer the latter will call the former a "mary sue" or some variation. I'm speaking very generally here, and while there's middle ground you're always gonna have people complaining.

There are a metric fuck ton of shit male characters too, the % of male characters that are shit may even be higher than the % of female characters that are shit. But because there are more male characters in raw numbers maybe it's less noticeable. But I do feel like there are a lot of shit male characters no one complains about that, if they were female, would be heralded as "sexist" characters.
Faceless mook to be killed - eh. Female faceless mook to be killed - gratuitous violence against women (though I do know there are some who want mook equality).
Male butt monkey with no redeeming features everyone shits on - eh.
Female butt monkey with no redeeming features everyone shits on - sexist, weak female character, ect.
Amoral male villain who does really shitty things - par for the course.
Amoral female villain who does really shitty things - sexist negative portrayal of women.
Male character who's helplessly in love and does anything the girl wants - eh.
Female character who's helplessly in love ad does anything the guy wants - sexist portrayal of women/pandering to men.
And countless more...

I know many people are fine with all the above examples and would not call any of them sexist, but I've seen a lot of double standards in my time. In general I do want less archetypal characters though. Less stale deres, less predictable male characters and more variety in general.
 
May 13, 2017 1:24 AM

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A female character can be respectable without being strong
Cute girls are respectable in my opinion
 
May 13, 2017 1:51 AM

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That isn't true.
You've got The Major from GiTS, Casa from Berserk, Revy from Black Lagoon, Asuka Langley from Evangelion, Makise Kurisu from Seins;Gate, Joylne Cujoh from JoJo Part 6 and every single female Ghibli character, just to name a few.

A character is allowed to fit into an archetype and still have ideas and personalitites of their own. Makise Kurisu is a perfect example of this. On a basic level she would fit snuggly into a tsundere archetype, and yet she's the smartest character in the show and the only person who can really challenge the main character on an intellectual level. She even has her own personal motivations outside of the main story.
 
May 13, 2017 2:08 AM

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imbricator said:
> Doesn't understand basic figures of speech
> Ignores feminism + advances a straw man argument, a logical fallacy
> Refuses to distinguish between fiction and reality, and also refuses to recognize the right of an author to craft a story, one which the above poster hasn't read
> Assumes that his personal experience is somehow representative of the entire body of work in a genre (of all the romance stories I've read, the leads have been females...check mate)
> Again tries to insert the "basic biology" argument into a fantasy story. A person growing wings isn't basic biology. Why is that tolerable when deviating from "expected" emotional displays is not?

This isn't Gender Studies 101 - that's something you intend to learn. This is the most basic stuff you should be aware of as a member of society.


"advances a straw man argument, a logical fallacy"
> Nice counter-argument... lol
"also refuses to recognise the right of an author to craft a story"
> Here I thought the people trying to force their social views into anime were the ones ignoring the author's right to craft a story...
"Assumes that his personal experience is somehow representative of the entire body of work in a genre (of all the romance stories I've read, the leads have been females...check mate)"
> You were trying to say I thought all female leads had to be romances, hence why I stated that.
"Again tries to insert the "basic biology" argument into a fantasy story. A person growing wings isn't basic biology. Why is that tolerable when deviating from "expected" emotional displays is not?
> How dare someone use basic Science to back up their argument...
Why is someone growing wings tolerable, yet abnormal emotional displays are not? Well cause Fiction isn't completely fiction, it's grounded in Human society, in our responses and lifestyles, we come to expect some form of magic or futuristic tech or other extraordinary aspects in Fiction, but that doesn't mean we expect people pushing their social views into them, that is not why people watch/read Fiction, we watch/read fiction for Entertainment.

Gender Studies 101, Lol. As if, I'd ever give a care in my life about that nonsense, I happen to follow Science, not 50 genders.
 
May 13, 2017 2:23 AM

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imbricator said:

A gross oversimplification can be seen through analyzing the fights in the Naruto manga. Out of all of the fights, there has never been a fight fitting these criteria:

>named female character wins
> without assistance from another character, male or female
> against named character, male or female

Each victory a female character has experienced has been with the assistance of others, while there are many named male characters who have won one-on-one fights against named male and female characters.


If only there was something to explain this? ....... Like some major difference between men and women? ...... This reallllllllly is a mYstery?

I'm a genius, I've just worked it out, men are physically stronger than women. If only we had paid attention to basic Biology this would'a been solved immediately.

Men are stronger than women, so why should female characters be able to beat male characters? They shouldn't, the only way is if the female character focuses on being strong, but even then, the guys are always focusing on being stronger, so they're no match.

If only people would watch the Olympics... They would see that Men and Women are separated, cause it's not fair for women to compete against Men.
Modified by Nyu, May 13, 2017 2:27 AM
 
May 13, 2017 2:33 AM

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flannan said:

Onyx-Sentinel said:
A show or work of fiction isn't just unrealistic because of extraordinary elements added into them, they can be just as unrealistic by ignoring basic biology and Society.

Basic biology? Every super-powerful fighter in anime violates all that.
Now, I haven't actually seen Claymore beyond 1 episode, but from what I've heard, Claymores are some human-demon hybrid, and they have full license to violate biology and physics as much as they want.
Fantasy!


Actually you're wrong, in a show/anime, if a character gets stabbed in the heart, and they die because of a fatal wound, That's basic biology.
That is the basics, foundations of any work of fiction, they follow some kind of logic.
 
May 13, 2017 3:03 AM

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Onyx-Sentinel said:
flannan said:


Basic biology? Every super-powerful fighter in anime violates all that.
Now, I haven't actually seen Claymore beyond 1 episode, but from what I've heard, Claymores are some human-demon hybrid, and they have full license to violate biology and physics as much as they want.
Fantasy!


Actually you're wrong, in a show/anime, if a character gets stabbed in the heart, and they die because of a fatal wound, That's basic biology.
That is the basics, foundations of any work of fiction, they follow some kind of logic.


But in Claymore they are half demon half women and it's explained why half man half demon wasn't a good choice.
The author made a set of rules for his own universe so his characters work based on that set of rules.

A show can be realistic without being based on our universe but just by respecting the laws that rule that universe.
Modified by Johnnyd3rp, May 13, 2017 3:14 AM
 
May 13, 2017 6:17 AM

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Onyx-Sentinel said:
flannan said:


Basic biology? Every super-powerful fighter in anime violates all that.
Now, I haven't actually seen Claymore beyond 1 episode, but from what I've heard, Claymores are some human-demon hybrid, and they have full license to violate biology and physics as much as they want.
Fantasy!


Actually you're wrong, in a show/anime, if a character gets stabbed in the heart, and they die because of a fatal wound, That's basic biology.
That is the basics, foundations of any work of fiction, they follow some kind of logic.

Do you hear that sound? It's all shounen protagonists ever laughing at you. The one in front is Alucard, he has more holes in him than a swiss cheese, and that doesn't even stop him from laughing.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
Gender Studies 101, Lol. As if, I'd ever give a care in my life about that nonsense, I happen to follow Science, not 50 genders.

You aren't following science. You're following "evolutionary psychology" liars who have stolen their lab coats somewhere.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
Men are stronger than women, so why should female characters be able to beat male characters? They shouldn't, the only way is if the female character focuses on being strong, but even then, the guys are always focusing on being stronger, so they're no match.

Hear that laughter again, even louder? Yes, it's all the anime action characters ever. Each of them is stronger than several Olympic athletes combined, they walk on water and jump on air, shoot lightning and black holes, run faster than the eye can see and dodge bullets. Anything you might know about abilities of real humans has no relation to action anime.
 
May 13, 2017 6:22 AM
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flannan said:
Onyx-Sentinel said:


Actually you're wrong, in a show/anime, if a character gets stabbed in the heart, and they die because of a fatal wound, That's basic biology.
That is the basics, foundations of any work of fiction, they follow some kind of logic.

Do you hear that sound? It's all shounen protagonists ever laughing at you. The one in front is Alucard, he has more holes in him than a swiss cheese, and that doesn't even stop him from laughing.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
Gender Studies 101, Lol. As if, I'd ever give a care in my life about that nonsense, I happen to follow Science, not 50 genders.

You aren't following science. You're following "evolutionary psychology" liars who have stolen their lab coats somewhere.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
Men are stronger than women, so why should female characters be able to beat male characters? They shouldn't, the only way is if the female character focuses on being strong, but even then, the guys are always focusing on being stronger, so they're no match.

Hear that laughter again, even louder? Yes, it's all the anime action characters ever. Each of them is stronger than several Olympic athletes combined, they walk on water and jump on air, shoot lightning and black holes, run faster than the eye can see and dodge bullets. Anything you might know about abilities of real humans has no relation to action anime.


For some reason he thinks it's acceptable to ignore basic biology when characters can move at the speed of sound and grow blue hair but when it's a woman "defying" her "biology" by not being outwardly concerned with family matters or being better at FLYING than a man, it's the end of science.
 
May 13, 2017 6:27 AM
senpai
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well there are integra from hellsing, balalaika from black lagoon true alpha females but yeah in shounen anime most of them are for fanservice.
 
May 13, 2017 6:30 AM

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Kenna_Pyralis said:

It really saddens me when the top 50 most popular anime on MAL does not have a single main female lead that isn't otaku bait, bland love interest, female archetype or just a fanservice female model(I challenge you on that btw).

okay then
mikasa from snk
olivia mira armstrong from fmab
faye valentine from bebop
saber from fate
homura from madoka
and then there are characters like touko aozaki, shiki ryougi, or integra hellsing that aren't in top 50 most popular

so why don't you stop regurgitating a point you prolly found on some far left post somewhere
"I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says.
I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby".
"She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other."
 
May 13, 2017 7:26 AM
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Kenna_Pyralis said:
There is a HUGE amount of female characters who are just archetypes (anything that ends in "dere" these days), Moe blobs, cute for the sake of being cute, very generic, bland, needs to be "protected" and only there for fan service induced cancer instead of actual respectable mentally strong/have their own ideals which isn't something like "Kirito-sama!". (btw the list goes on) basically anything otaku bait. I am no feminist by today's definition but can we have someone like Shirayuki(snow white with red hair), Caska during gold age arc(berserk) or in non-animemovie some like Katniss Everdeen(from hunger games) or Beatrice Prior(from divergant).

It really saddens me when the top 50 most popular anime on MAL does not have a single main female lead that isn't otaku bait, bland love interest, female archetype or just a fanservice female model(I challenge you on that btw). even though its not in the top 50 most popular look at seven deadly sins as an example. Elizabeth is a bland fan service model who pretends to have her own ideals but in reality gathering the sins is an excuse to be with meliodas-sama(at least she does not take the goal seriously imo) and a 1 dimensional love interest. nothing respectable in the least. the same with diane "Meliodas-sama" and fanservice model love interest with no real ideals of her own.

What I am trying to say is that I can like these characters but I cannot respect these characters. Is there any prevalent respectable female characters in anime with their own ideals and why is this a very unpopular trend in anime fans?



It's called reality.Women in real life are generally never that strong nor idealistic.They rather virtue signal and call men basement dwellers/virgins if they are of no benefit to them,so there is no suspension of disbelef.

Women only do stuff if if it benefits them,idealism and integrity are not female traits.






Modified by genesic123, May 13, 2017 7:43 AM


 
May 13, 2017 8:26 AM

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Respectable females huh. Yeah, I must admit there are few if any (Can not come up with any characters yet.) I guess it has something to do with Japanese culture and how female characters are portraited in anime.

But it can also have something to do with how Japanese people feel about having respectable female protagonists instead of male. Now when I think about it Kobayashi from Dragon Maid is definitely one of the few female characters I utmostly have respect for. But the sales aren't looking well for them though. So there might be a lack in the drive forces to creating respectable female protagonists if the sales will be hurt (Most buyers are male, I think). But obviously, I do not have any data or statistic to back this claim up. So take it with a grain of salt.

There are also other aspects like how normal it is nowadays to over sexualize female characters in anime. Not only in the physical appearance but also the psychology or thinking of one. If a change were to be introduced to a male dominated country and group-society like Japan then it may be met with strong negative reaction.

Well, this text was more in-depth than I initially thought but yea...... Cute anime girls for the win!

Edit: Sentence structure and spelling.

 
May 13, 2017 11:32 AM

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i feel like there are a lot more males itt concerned about the representation of females in anime than females actually concerned about it
 
May 13, 2017 8:55 PM
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Impressions might also be biased from viewers who mostly watch shounen (including me).

Sailor Moon's main female characters are all heroic, badass, and inspiring. And Sailor Moon herself could curbstomp Saitama and Madara and Goku and Yhwach and basically anyone else in battle.

Sailor Moon's plot progression is very similar to the plot progression in Bleach (teenager lives normal life, becomes supernatural because they are somehow special, fights evil in secret, meets others in the same general organization of fighters of evil, learns about another world they are somehow part - all while people around them keep information from them about just how important they are, culminating in a final battle of huge power-ups).

Shounen and shoujo have become genres when they originated as demographics for marketing. Using them as genres is often convenient but sometimes it falls short, such as in cases like Sailor Moon which are really similar to many battle shounens.
 
May 13, 2017 9:12 PM

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Johnnyd3rp said:
Onyx-Sentinel said:


Actually you're wrong, in a show/anime, if a character gets stabbed in the heart, and they die because of a fatal wound, That's basic biology.
That is the basics, foundations of any work of fiction, they follow some kind of logic.


But in Claymore they are half demon half women and it's explained why half man half demon wasn't a good choice.
The author made a set of rules for his own universe so his characters work based on that set of rules.

A show can be realistic without being based on our universe but just by respecting the laws that rule that universe.


It seems this has kinda dragged, my main objective was to discuss female characters in anime, I haven't watched Claymore, and don't intend to. So I don't really have any part in discussing it this in-depth without having seen it.
 
May 13, 2017 9:28 PM

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flannan said:
Onyx-Sentinel said:


Actually you're wrong, in a show/anime, if a character gets stabbed in the heart, and they die because of a fatal wound, That's basic biology.
That is the basics, foundations of any work of fiction, they follow some kind of logic.

Do you hear that sound? It's all shounen protagonists ever laughing at you. The one in front is Alucard, he has more holes in him than a swiss cheese, and that doesn't even stop him from laughing.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
Gender Studies 101, Lol. As if, I'd ever give a care in my life about that nonsense, I happen to follow Science, not 50 genders.

You aren't following science. You're following "evolutionary psychology" liars who have stolen their lab coats somewhere.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
Men are stronger than women, so why should female characters be able to beat male characters? They shouldn't, the only way is if the female character focuses on being strong, but even then, the guys are always focusing on being stronger, so they're no match.

Hear that laughter again, even louder? Yes, it's all the anime action characters ever. Each of them is stronger than several Olympic athletes combined, they walk on water and jump on air, shoot lightning and black holes, run faster than the eye can see and dodge bullets. Anything you might know about abilities of real humans has no relation to action anime.


"You aren't following science. You're following "evolutionary psychology" liars who have stolen their lab coats somewhere."
I don't even know what to say. It's baffling, how am I supposed to argue with a guy who says the Earth is flat, and refuses to look up basic facts.
I have much better things to do than argue about basic Biology I learned in High School.

" Anything you might know about abilities of real humans has no relation to action anime."
Oh, so in anime, women are the strong ones, and men are weaker? Oh wait, most animes actually take into account basic realism for the sake of suspension of disbelief.
 
May 13, 2017 9:43 PM

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MrWanderer said:
Respectable females huh. Yeah, I must admit there are few if any (Can not come up with any characters yet.) I guess it has something to do with Japanese culture and how female characters are portraited in anime.

But it can also have something to do with how Japanese people feel about having respectable female protagonists instead of male. Now when I think about it Kobayashi from Dragon Maid is definitely one of the few female characters I utmostly have respect for. But the sales aren't looking well for them though. So there might be a lack in the drive forces to creating respectable female protagonists if the sales will be hurt (Most buyers are male, I think). But obviously, I do not have any data or statistic to back this claim up. So take it with a grain of salt.

There are also other aspects like how normal it is nowadays to over sexualize female characters in anime. Not only in the physical appearance but also the psychology or thinking of one. If a change were to be introduced to a male dominated country and group-society like Japan then it may be met with strong negative reaction.

Well, this text was more in-depth than I initially thought but yea...... Cute anime girls for the win!

Edit: Sentence structure and spelling.


"So there might be a lack in the drive forces"
Good, trying to force people's select social views into every work of fiction is wrong. What about the creator's vision? You're just throwing away what the creator wanted to do, for the sake of your politics.

"Now when I think about it Kobayashi from Dragon Maid is definitely one of the few female characters I utmostly have respect for."
I liked Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid as well, but Kobayashi was pretty dull, she just acted like any other kind person would, nothing really interesting. She is pretty much a copy of Segawa Yuuta from Papa no Iukoto wo Kikinasai!, execpt she doesn't have an interesting backstory, trying to survive in hard times or a distinct personality.
So do you only consider a female character respectable if they aren't sexualized?

How is it acceptable to slut-shame in fiction, yet in real life yous are against it.
 
May 13, 2017 9:51 PM

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you clearly haven't watched enough anime. there are tons of great, badass female characters. yoko littner from gurren, noriko and a couple others from gunbuster, nono, lal'c and every other chick from diebuster, birdy from tetsuwan birdy, pretty much all the female cast from evangelion, haruko from flcl, komugi from nurse witch komugi-chan and soultaker, koto and koto from kyousou giga, yotsugi ononoki, suruga kanbaru, even hanekawa and senjougahara from the monogatari series, the puella magi from madoka magica, lots of the girls from the first three nanoha seasons, cocona and papika from flip flappers, ryuko matoi, satsuki, nonon, mako from kill la kill, akko and sucy from lta, emi and even the little witch from concrete revolutio, panty & stocking anarchy, yuki nagato from the haruhi suzumiya franchise, tohru and kobayashi from kobayashi's dragon maid, even the ever so whiny mirai kuriyama from beyond the boundary is actually pretty badass when she wants to, hajime and utsutsu from gatchaman crowds, lyuze from casshern sins, little luluco from space patrol luluco, the major from the gits franchise, casca from berserk, rinne from hells etc.

there are so many more. how can there not be great female characters in anime?
"I came here to sniff Madoka panties and kick witch ass and I am all out 'doka panties" - Homora Akemi
 
May 13, 2017 9:54 PM

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imbricator said:
flannan said:

Do you hear that sound? It's all shounen protagonists ever laughing at you. The one in front is Alucard, he has more holes in him than a swiss cheese, and that doesn't even stop him from laughing.


You aren't following science. You're following "evolutionary psychology" liars who have stolen their lab coats somewhere.


Hear that laughter again, even louder? Yes, it's all the anime action characters ever. Each of them is stronger than several Olympic athletes combined, they walk on water and jump on air, shoot lightning and black holes, run faster than the eye can see and dodge bullets. Anything you might know about abilities of real humans has no relation to action anime.


For some reason he thinks it's acceptable to ignore basic biology when characters can move at the speed of sound and grow blue hair but when it's a woman "defying" her "biology" by not being outwardly concerned with family matters or being better at FLYING than a man, it's the end of science.


"For some reason he thinks it's acceptable to ignore basic biology when characters can move at the speed of sound and grow blue hair but when it's a woman "defying" her "biology" by not being outwardly concerned with family matters or being better at FLYING than a man, it's the end of science."

Suspension of disbelief, believe it or not, anime, shows are grounded in basic realism. How can people just blatantly ignore that?
We can ignore the magic and powers cause that's obvious thing that separates it from reality, however the rest of the show is trying to say everything is pretty much the same as real life, just with magic.
Yeah, so when they try to push their obscure social views into the background, whilst still maintaining "hey everything is the same as real life, except with Magic", it's deceptive, misleading. That's how society is influenced, through media.
 
May 13, 2017 9:57 PM

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Aure0lin said:
Kenna_Pyralis said:

It really saddens me when the top 50 most popular anime on MAL does not have a single main female lead that isn't otaku bait, bland love interest, female archetype or just a fanservice female model(I challenge you on that btw).

okay then
mikasa from snk
olivia mira armstrong from fmab
faye valentine from bebop
saber from fate
homura from madoka
and then there are characters like touko aozaki, shiki ryougi, or integra hellsing that aren't in top 50 most popular

so why don't you stop regurgitating a point you prolly found on some far left post somewhere


You're completely right, people are just trying to force their social views on others as usual.
 
May 13, 2017 10:00 PM

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vvickie said:
well there are integra from hellsing, balalaika from black lagoon true alpha females but yeah in shounen anime most of them are for fanservice.


You seem to be forgetting a lot of other characters:
Mikasa and Hange Zoe from Attack on Titan
Akame from Akame ga Kill
Benio from Twin Star Exorcists
Saber and Rin from fate/Stay Night

It seems, people are just assuming there aren't enough respectable female characters in anime, cause they haven't watched enough anime.
Modified by Nyu, May 13, 2017 10:09 PM
 
May 13, 2017 10:16 PM

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imbricator said:
Impressions might also be biased from viewers who mostly watch shounen (including me).

Sailor Moon's main female characters are all heroic, badass, and inspiring. And Sailor Moon herself could curbstomp Saitama and Madara and Goku and Yhwach and basically anyone else in battle.

Sailor Moon's plot progression is very similar to the plot progression in Bleach (teenager lives normal life, becomes supernatural because they are somehow special, fights evil in secret, meets others in the same general organization of fighters of evil, learns about another world they are somehow part - all while people around them keep information from them about just how important they are, culminating in a final battle of huge power-ups).

Shounen and shoujo have become genres when they originated as demographics for marketing. Using them as genres is often convenient but sometimes it falls short, such as in cases like Sailor Moon which are really similar to many battle shounens.


So you're used to shows where the main cast are all overpowered women, that makes sense now.
See most animes actually have both men and women in them, ya know, diversity.
And most animes are grounded in basic realism, that men are stronger than women.

Which results in more animes having both men and women as the main cast, in which the men are more powerful.
 
May 13, 2017 10:59 PM

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Onyx-Sentinel said:
"You aren't following science. You're following "evolutionary psychology" liars who have stolen their lab coats somewhere."
I don't even know what to say. It's baffling, how am I supposed to argue with a guy who says the Earth is flat, and refuses to look up basic facts.
I have much better things to do than argue about basic Biology I learned in High School.

" Anything you might know about abilities of real humans has no relation to action anime."
Oh, so in anime, women are the strong ones, and men are weaker? Oh wait, most animes actually take into account basic realism for the sake of suspension of disbelief.

Realism? Realism should die in a ditch somewhere. I like my anime with galaxy-sized robots, girls all over the universe rushing to be loved by the protagonist, impossible inventions being made overnight, ordinary schoolchildren saving the world and other cool stuff.

I have no idea what garbage did you learn in high school. I went learning physics after school, and I had to forget most of what I learned in school because it was all kid-friendly simplifications that have little to do with the actual workings of the universe.
And yes, in most anime an angered female can punch a guy into the stratosphere or do some other impossible feat of destruction. Men can't do that.
Only anime about fighting are likely to have strong male characters, everywhere else men are realistic japanese men - rather weak and pathetic.

carpaccio said:
i feel like there are a lot more males itt concerned about the representation of females in anime than females actually concerned about it

Well, basically the OP lacks understanding of what makes a good main character and what makes an inspiring/respectable character. There is not much space for discussion.

Also yes, we men like female characters. It's expected that we would have opinions on this topic and talk about them.
Whatever the standards in feminist circles are, in this forum, men do not restrain themselves from participating in gender-related discussions, and are likely to dominate the discussion simply though enthusiasm and numbers. Only if the OP specifies that he/she wants female opinions that the situation changes.

MrWanderer said:
Now when I think about it Kobayashi from Dragon Maid is definitely one of the few female characters I utmostly have respect for. But the sales aren't looking well for them though. So there might be a lack in the drive forces to creating respectable female protagonists if the sales will be hurt (Most buyers are male, I think). But obviously, I do not have any data or statistic to back this claim up. So take it with a grain of salt.

On the other hand, Kemono Friends, with their clever female protagonist Kaban-chan, had an impressive commercial success.
Is Kaban-chan respectable enough for you?

MrWanderer said:
There are also other aspects like how normal it is nowadays to over sexualize female characters in anime. Not only in the physical appearance but also the psychology or thinking of one.

I would like to discuss this part more in-depth. Can you expand what you meant here?
 
May 13, 2017 11:10 PM

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flannan said:
Onyx-Sentinel said:
"You aren't following science. You're following "evolutionary psychology" liars who have stolen their lab coats somewhere."
I don't even know what to say. It's baffling, how am I supposed to argue with a guy who says the Earth is flat, and refuses to look up basic facts.
I have much better things to do than argue about basic Biology I learned in High School.

" Anything you might know about abilities of real humans has no relation to action anime."
Oh, so in anime, women are the strong ones, and men are weaker? Oh wait, most animes actually take into account basic realism for the sake of suspension of disbelief.


I have no idea what garbage did you learn in high school. I went learning physics after school, and I had to forget most of what I learned in school because it was all kid-friendly simplifications that have little to do with the actual workings of the universe.


That's physics, here I thought we were talking about Biology. And by the way, British High schools have a higher standard than american High schools, the course I studied (Higher Biology) is a College level qualification, so it's not simplified. The course above that? Advanced Higher Biology, which is Year 1 University work.
So yeah, there are only 2 genders, and men are physically stronger than women.
 
May 13, 2017 11:17 PM

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Onyx-Sentinel said:
flannan said:


I have no idea what garbage did you learn in high school. I went learning physics after school, and I had to forget most of what I learned in school because it was all kid-friendly simplifications that have little to do with the actual workings of the universe.


That's physics, here I thought we were talking about Biology. And by the way, British High schools have a higher standard than american High schools, the course I studied (Higher Biology) is a College level qualification, so it's not simplified. The course above that? Advanced Higher Biology, which is Year 1 University work.
So yeah, there are only 2 genders, and men are physically stronger than women.

Yeah, your course was garbage. Even I know it's not really like that, and I'm a physicist.
[evil]Also, you should watch Futabu.[/evil]
 
May 13, 2017 11:18 PM

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Target audience, target audience, target audience

A lot of characters aren't all that compelling, male or female. Being attractive adds something to a show that allow those not so compelling characters/shows to stand out and be entertaining sometimes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the feeling I get from these types of threads is "The author thinks he can use tits to get away with bad writing." I think there are just a lot of people who aren't very good at writing shows or characters and if you take fanservice away, you just end up with a show that's poorly written and boring to look at, which isn't exactly an improvement.

Pretty sure something in the monogatari series is in the top 50 and it has a lot of good female characters. Most of them are sexy or otaku bait or whatever you want to call it which shouldn't matter but people like to target sex appeal as if it removes other qualities.
 
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