Demi-chan wa Kataritai Episode 12 Discussion

Laionidas said:


I get that some people are not into "moe, but don't you think you're pushing it? They've proven that a dullahan kan work, but a kappa? (>.<)

Zarator said:


The good things Demi-chan has are things which you can find in a dozen other anime - do you rly need a list of anime with moe chars or heartwarming moments? The main problem is, there are many shows where these things are NOT the only thing the show is about. They play them in more original and interesting way. Demi-chan, on the other hand, is simply a moe show, nothing more, nothing else. There's basically nothing else to it than cute girls doing cute stuff with an excuse plot which follows overdone tropes (the shy girl, the girl who loves her teacher, etc.).

Also lol, if I were to write to each anime writer whose show I didn't like, that'd be quite a lot of drawing^^ Plus, as the forum discussion shows here, people like moe shows, apparently (either that, or they haven't realized/don't wanna realize what's bad or what's to be deconstructed about said shows).

As a final point, I do not intend to preach on any kind of political message whatsoever (unless you want to read my dislike of flat/shallow/monotone chars as "political", I guess)

flannan said:

I assure you - I do not need a list of moe anime. graph.anime.plus lists more SoL anime on my list that your list has completions.
What matters is - Demi-chan's characters are some of the most alive characters I've seen.
What makes it special is - Demi-chan talks about things like disabilities on an adult level. Sure, you might feel there is something wrong with the relationship dynamic, something that was done right in Katawa Shoujo. You might be right. I have not seen Katawa Shoujo yet, but I have heard it is very different from Demi-chan, with things spiraling into tragedies and madness at one wrong step. But if you ask me, Demi-chan's approach is more relevant.

Well, if the only thing you care about in a show like that is writing quality, and not here to make a political point, you really do not need to write to the author. You're just not used to SoL shows. Demi-chan stands out among them like a gem.
Deconstruction in itself is not valuable. Not until you have a trope to deconstruct. Change is only seen in comparison to status quo. Darkness can only be known once one has seen the light.

Protoz said:
How a biology teacher who spent most of his time sitting behind desk can build all of those muscles is beyond me

flannan said:
Or maybe he does work out. One does not get muscles like that without working out. Unless it's anime magic that makes everybody good-looking at work.

Zarator said:


First of all, the point about Katawa Shoujo is not tragedy lol - it's not School Days. Sure, there are also bad endings, as well as good endings, but that's sorta the reason why it's a more realistic and adult approach to the theme than Demi-chan. Katawa Shoujo actually portrays disabled people with issues which are not just reduced to their disabled condition, and also shows that if you really want to help a person, you must put trust in his/her ability to stand on his/her feet, not push on a dangerous "white-knight" attitude (as shown, and barely addressed besides ep. 11, in Demi-chan). But most importantly, unlike in Demi-chan, it's the disabled girls who call the MC out on his white-knight attitude. Unlike the girls in Demi-chan, who seem to be completely fine with being babysat like they were kids, the girls in Katawa Shoujo are actually independent beings with different personalities, some of which are simply at odds with an MC who feels he's their one and only savior. This, if you ask me, is an actually mature way to treat the theme, not Demi-chan - and I'd urge you to try it out for yourself (if you can't stand the tragedy, go for the good endings only).

As far as being used to SoL, on the other hand... have you even glanced at my anime list? I've watched dozens of SoL shows - in fact, over 50% of the anime I've watched are SoL. But the difference is that, in most of these SoL, the show actually does something beyond giving us a buncha moes to baww about. Some of these things are:

(1) distinguishing the characters, providing them with different personalities and perhaps also conflicting ones. Conflict is not necessarily a bad thing, and can be an important path towards character development.

(2) making things HAPPEN. Just because it's a SoL doesn't mean it should be completely uneventful. Even normal high school life can provide plenty of issues and problems to overcome. Dealing with classmates who misunderstand you, for example... or with school grades... or with love issues, or whatever. Demi-chan sometimes touches upon this points, but only to wrap them up incredibly fast (except the love issues, which stay the same from beginning to the end and hardly advance - because ofc they cannot advance, status quo is god in a show like this). Apparently, spending an episode to tell us what kind of metaphysical hole connects Kyouko's head to her body is more important than giving us such characterizations and events.

Zarator said:
You say that deconstruction is not valuable until the original tropes which are meant to be deconstructed are actually explored. You're absolutely right. But as you mention yourself, SoLs are already rife with heartwarming shows like Demi-chan - and whether or not Demi-chan stands as a gem among them is actually debatable (I'd take Toradora, Haruhi Suzumiya, Kokoro Connect, GTO or many others over it ANY time of the day - just check the list: https://myanimelist.net/anime/genre/36/Slice_of_Life).
This is why deconstructions of the kind Katawa Shoujo does are required. How many shows have you heard a girl telling the MC something like "So you want to fix me? Wanna swoop in your white charger and save the day? Well, you can't. Nobody can. Nobody will."? Anime rarely condemn this sort of protective attitude, or show why the receiver of such an attitude could be uncomfortable with it, even when (especially when) they actually harbor feelings for the "white knight wannabe". But that's what is actually more likely to happen in real life, and we definitely need more slice of life which embrace realistic characterization, rather than provide shallow, overdone and childish escapism like Demi-chan. I strongly urge you to try Katawa Shoujo and see the difference for yourself, you might be surprised.

flannan said:

No, I did not explore your anime list. I just judged by your attitude. (I am not your personal psychologist)
Sure, a lot of shows get a SoL label. But the essence of SoL genre is seen in shows which aren't as much romance, comedy or some other genre. Shows like Non Non Biyori, Barakamon, K-On, Mikakunin de Shinkoukei, Gakkougurashi and others.
To them, Demi-chan's rate of things happening is perfectly acceptable.
I do understand that many people will find these shows boring - despite accessibility, this genre is not really for everyone.

I have no problems distinguishing the personalities of everybody in Demi-chan. A show does not have to be SHnY-level dysfunction junction to work. Especially when it tries to be realistic and serious.

First of all, you should be aware of cultural differences. Whatever the individualistic West might have told you is right, collectivist Japan is very much about helping each other. It is okay to rely on others when you need it, and help out other people when they need it. Many anime characters learn this in their stories.

Second, no, there is no baseline in for people helping each other with their internal problems in anime.
There are a number of shows about people becoming saner and more humane through friendship and knowing each other, but these relationships are relationships between equals: Kokoro Connect, Haganai.
Most of the time, when faced with a person who has any problems, like in Chuu2Koi, the characters are at a complete loss as to what to do.
The "beat them up and give them a hug" approach of Nanoha is obviously not applicable in real life. And even if it works, it can only make you the other person's friend, not magically solve any other kind of problem. Fortunately, in such shows, most other problems can be solved by beating them up too.
Shows like Kuusen Madoushi, where somebody deliberately helps another person with his/her internal problems, are rare enough that there is no baseline for that.

Zarator said:
Besides, there is a huge difference between "helping each other" and "babysitting somebody", like most moe shows encourage.

Zarator said:
In reality, many people who have such issues do not need neither. They need somebody who can treat them for what they are, regardless of their issues. Of course, I'm not saying they expect people to be insensitive to their issues. But they definitely want people to be interested in them not because of their issues.

This is a strong part of why I think Demi-chan is a bad work. Takahashi-sensei and many other characters show an interest in the demis which is generally limited to their nature as demis. And what's worse, the demis don't seem to mind it at all. They almost never call out Takahashi or others for this reason. Again, if you checked Katawa Shoujo, you'd understand this point more clearly, as you could see with your eyes what's bad with treating a broken or odd person as a broken or odd person.

I guess I can imagine that somebody, somewhere, would actually prefer to be treated like that. Maybe. But most of the people I know in real life do not. And not because they're "individualistic", as you say, but simply because they expect people to harbor feelings for them for reasons beyond their own oddities or flaws. Even when they're not equals. Perhaps, especially when they're not equals. That's the sort of mature message I expected Demi-chan to deliver at some point in the narrative, but never did. Instead, what I get was... a moe show. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe I'm biased, I dunno, but I just can't bring myself to give a decent score to a show whose basic or only premise is being, well, a moe show.

flannan said:

Give me some examples of moe shows that encourage to "babysit" anybody who isn't a baby, or at least has problems on Shiina Mashiro's level.
Demi-chan sure isn't an example. Takahashi-sensei isn't helping the girls out much more than his job as a teacher entails.

Even if Takahashi-sensei got interested in the girls at first because they were demis, it does not mean their bond is that shallow. He (and the viewers) get to know and love them as people.
Just look at this topic: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1600319 . It is written because Kyouko is such a great person, not because dullahans are fun or somebody's fetish.
Same with Hikari - we love her because she is a fun person, not because she is a vampire.
And Sakie-sensei got people to like her without any succubus powers affecting us on this side of the screen.
Maybe Yuki will shine like that too one day.

Zarator said:


If saying that Hikari is "fun" is enough for you to see her as a well-rounded person, good for you! Frankly, I've seen supporting characters in other SoL with more depth than she has. Same for Sakie-sensei... all we learn about her is that (1) she's a succubus; (2) she's in love with Takahashi-sensei; (3) She has issues with her succubus nature which she might eventually overcome. The end. Again, compare it with many other examples of female chars (even teachers!) falling in love with a male char, and see how much deeper a char can be. Azusa Fuyutsuki from the aforementioned GTO, for example, starts mostly as just a teacher who's in love with the teacher MC (Onizuka), just like Sakie. But as the story goes on, we learn of her issues with students, she has to deal with another (quite troublesome) love interest, she has to question her own ideals as a teacher, and she's often involved to various degrees into Onizuka's own stunts and adventures, sometimes helping the latter with timely advice or action. And many of these points come up within the first 12 episodes, as well, proving that you don't need a 2-4-coeur anime to give depth to a char. Ofc, this all worked because much less airtime was dedicated to raise Azusa's moe points with repetitive heartwarming scenes but hey! If you like them that's good for you. To me, it came down as repetitive and overdone in this respect - as if the show expected me to care just 'cause they're moe.

Overall, what this tells me is that as long as a char is moe, people will get on board even with minimal characterization. Just ask yourself: were these char not looking/behaving in a "moe" way, would this anime be as popular? Sadly, I'm pretty sure it would not.

Varete7 said:
Any chances of a S2?
Are enough material to adapt?

Zarator said:


It might not be that bad (I did try to watch that other anime but dropped it very soon exactly because of the character you linked), but if you can't be honestly tell me that Takahashi-sensei is helping the girls within the boundaries of his teaching role.

Of course, there is not necessarily wrong with this - generally in shows involving teachers as main characters we do expect them to help/interact with their students beyond their teaching duties. But the problem is that the way Takahashi-sensei helps these girls beyond his duties sounds overly attentive and questionably helping in terms of making a person stand up for himself/herself (whether the girls say so or not is another matter - if anything, it calls into question the realism of their portrayal). Heck, it's one of the few things he is (rightfully so) called out for in the anime itself. Ofc the anime quickly backpedals within a ten minutes or so on it, after the girls rise to Takahashi-sensei's defense... but again, how much does this tell us about the correctness of Takahashi-sensei's behaviour in a RL scenario, and how much does it tell us about how unrealistic the behaviour of these girls is from a RL standard? Again, I can see why you'd endorse the former, but experience brought me to endorse the latter.

Also, if I were to make an example, I'd say Eikichi Onizuka from GTO is much better at actually teaching his own (heavily burdened by issues) students to grow up and stand up by themselves. He also does way more than he would have to as a teacher, just like Takahashi-sensei. But unlike Takahashi-sensei, Onizuka actually spurs his students to be men and women (and work together), rather than just treat them with silk hands at every turn.



If saying that Hikari is "fun" is enough for you to see her as a well-rounded person, good for you! Frankly, I've seen supporting characters in other SoL with more depth than she has. Same for Sakie-sensei... all we learn about her is that (1) she's a succubus; (2) she's in love with Takahashi-sensei; (3) She has issues with her succubus nature which she might eventually overcome. The end. Again, compare it with many other examples of female chars (even teachers!) falling in love with a male char, and see how much deeper a char can be. Azusa Fuyutsuki from the aforementioned GTO, for example, starts mostly as just a teacher who's in love with the teacher MC (Onizuka), just like Sakie. But as the story goes on, we learn of her issues with students, she has to deal with another (quite troublesome) love interest, she has to question her own ideals as a teacher, and she's often involved to various degrees into Onizuka's own stunts and adventures, sometimes helping the latter with timely advice or action. And many of these points come up within the first 12 episodes, as well, proving that you don't need a 2-4-coeur anime to give depth to a char. Ofc, this all worked because much less airtime was dedicated to raise Azusa's moe points with repetitive heartwarming scenes but hey! If you like them that's good for you. To me, it came down as repetitive and overdone in this respect - as if the show expected me to care just 'cause they're moe.

Overall, what this tells me is that as long as a char is moe, people will get on board even with minimal characterization. Just ask yourself: were these char not looking/behaving in a "moe" way, would this anime be as popular? Sadly, I'm pretty sure it would not.

SuperRed said:

1. A character doesn't need to be "deep" to be good, sometimes simple but likable personalities are effective as well.

2. Your premise is wrong, this characters aren't just "moe" and the show doesn't expect you to care only for that aspect.

Your extremely low rating is unwarranted.

Zarator said:


You can find "simple but likeable" personalities almost everywhere in anime. Demi-chan is nothing special in this respect. Just pick any SoL and, 90% of the time it'll have overall "simple but likeable" (depending on your notion of "likeable" ofc, which is prolly broader than mine) characters.

The difference, here, is that many of those SoL give those characters something more than simple "likeability". They make them do something. They make them change. They put them in different, sometimes even conflictual situations. They don't wrap up any issues they have in one episode and call it a day.



It still was their main draw and - for chars like Hikari - almost the only thing you can tell about them other than very generic and not unique comments ("she's funny").

Again, I understand that some of you may not like me comparing this show with Katawa Shoujo, as many of you in this thread have not played it (understandably so, otherwise you wouldn't be here probably). But the comparison on this point is particularly compelling. KS also has somewhat "moe" and "cute" girls, but unlike Demi-chan, these girls are defined by more than just this, or their basic quirks, etc. They have complex sets of reasons, and they don't always behave like you'd expect them to.

But most importantly, they actually do not like being treated as "moe" or "cute"... just like most IRL people would react in a similar situation. The girls who fall in love for the male lead do not want the male lead to see them as "things" to protect, but as people in their own rights. The male lead's "white-knight" attitude (which is quite similar to Takahashi-sensei's) actually brings many of these girls to lose self-esteem and eventually distance (more or less abruptly) themselves from the MC, unless the MC makes the right decision to change his habits and starts treat them better. Again, if it does not make sense to you, you should play that game (or go out there and check out on IRL girls... that would prolly open your eyes as well).

Now, you could tell me "I don't give a damn about them acting realistically or not". Well, good for you. There's plenty of anime out there like this. And personally, I'm tired of them. Hence the low rating.



My "extremely low rating" is simply based on the consideration that every other show I've seen and rated so far was better in some way than this one. Maybe there are shows out there I'd rate even lower than this one (Glasslip maybe?), but I just don't watch those shows. And even then, this could at most result in me bumping Demi-chan to a 2 or 3 out of 10. I don't see myself giving it 4/10 or more, unless I bump all the other shows I've rated accordingly (which I don't see a reason to do, as I believe one should not be afraid of using all scores from 1 to 10).

Zarator said:


You can find "simple but likeable" personalities almost everywhere in anime. Demi-chan is nothing special in this respect. Just pick any SoL and, 90% of the time it'll have overall "simple but likeable" (depending on your notion of "likeable" ofc, which is prolly broader than mine) characters.

The difference, here, is that many of those SoL give those characters something more than simple "likeability". They make them do something. They make them change. They put them in different, sometimes even conflictual situations. They don't wrap up any issues they have in one episode and call it a day.



It still was their main draw and - for chars like Hikari - almost the only thing you can tell about them other than very generic and not unique comments ("she's funny").

Again, I understand that some of you may not like me comparing this show with Katawa Shoujo, as many of you in this thread have not played it (understandably so, otherwise you wouldn't be here probably). But the comparison on this point is particularly compelling. KS also has somewhat "moe" and "cute" girls, but unlike Demi-chan, these girls are defined by more than just this, or their basic quirks, etc. They have complex sets of reasons, and they don't always behave like you'd expect them to.

But most importantly, they actually do not like being treated as "moe" or "cute"... just like most IRL people would react in a similar situation. The girls who fall in love for the male lead do not want the male lead to see them as "things" to protect, but as people in their own rights. The male lead's "white-knight" attitude (which is quite similar to Takahashi-sensei's) actually brings many of these girls to lose self-esteem and eventually distance (more or less abruptly) themselves from the MC, unless the MC makes the right decision to change his habits and starts treat them better. Again, if it does not make sense to you, you should play that game (or go out there and check out on IRL girls... that would prolly open your eyes as well).

Now, you could tell me "I don't give a damn about them acting realistically or not". Well, good for you. There's plenty of anime out there like this. And personally, I'm tired of them. Hence the low rating.



My "extremely low rating" is simply based on the consideration that every other show I've seen and rated so far was better in some way than this one. Maybe there are shows out there I'd rate even lower than this one (Glasslip maybe?), but I just don't watch those shows. And even then, this could at most result in me bumping Demi-chan to a 2 or 3 out of 10. I don't see myself giving it 4/10 or more, unless I bump all the other shows I've rated accordingly (which I don't see a reason to do, as I believe one should not be afraid of using all scores from 1 to 10).

SuperRed said:

"(understandably so, otherwise you wouldn't be here probably)"

What does this even mean?

I personally did not find anything about the characters behavior to be illogical or unrealistic, and I don't need to read Katawa Shoujo or whatever.

You seem to be overreacting, the teacher doesn't mistreat or disrespect his students in any way. Does he treat them like children that need to be supervised in every aspect of their lives?

In my opinion, a 1/10 should be reserved for the absolute lowest a show can be in all aspects.