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#1
Jan 17, 2017 1:06 PM

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFZ1rSBlOAA

Just got done watching this video and thought it could be a good thread since I think anime fans can relate to trust. Especially fans of shows that get multiple seasons.

For me it varies. The show has hook me and get me to care about what is going. A show like Hunter x hunter 2011. I been watching on Toonami for example has made commit to watching it every Saturday at 12:30pm. It has promise me payoff to all the questions I have and makes sure there is always something going on.

But on the flipside, a show that lost my trust would be Show by Rock. When I saw those awful shorts. I started to question why did I think this show was good and not excited for season 2 of Show by Rock....which for lack of a better word sucked.

What are your thoughts?
Studio Trigger is like that food you always want but hate when it is sold out in the stores. That's how good Studio Trigger is.
 
#2
Jan 17, 2017 1:20 PM

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Firstly as I always do I will refuse to watch a yt link because that just means you can elaborate your point in a topic.

That being said from what I understand your topic you are talking about a kind of trust we put into producers of the shows.

Now I will start with an example too.Yes I have an anime I can trust all day and it is of course Monogatari.I love every part of the show tries to achieve.I am always sure that I will rate a season of Monogatari 10.Creating this trust however is really hard.

Reason for this exist in the first place is probably we like something and we don't want it to be suck.You adore a show and and think it is near perfection then someone announce that third season you are like "I mean the ending was so good but they probably have a plan." (Yea Code Geass)

As you pointed out losing that trust is really sucks for you.But it is what it is.
 
#3
Jan 17, 2017 1:33 PM

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Okay, I dunno but I think "trust" can only exist between my waifu and me.
 
#4
Jan 17, 2017 1:35 PM

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Interesting video.

A prime example for me would be Jormungand Perfect Order. We are promised some great plan throughout the show and in the end it just happens and that was it, creating a rather anticlimatic ending. If there would be a third season, they would have really have to deliver, since the finale of season 2 destroyed my trust.

Not an anime or other series, but another example is Mass Effect Andromeda. My interest in this game is quite low, since they betrayed my trust with Mass Effect 3.

TL;DR If you promise something, you have to deliver. Otherwise you're screwed.
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#5
Jan 17, 2017 1:46 PM

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And that is why I do my best not to create expectations when watch an anime. Expectation can really blind you and make you dislike a show when otherwise you would've liked it. Of course, not building up expectations doesn't mean that I don't have a standard, but it means that I don't create any specific anticipation...In summary, I try to go with a clean mind. Well, sometimes having some expectations can't be helped though.
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#6
Jan 17, 2017 2:00 PM

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I'm always* sceptical when a new season of something I enjoyed is announced.
Not because I want to be, but because my experiences with, for example Gatchaman CROWDS insight, DxD BorN.

But then again, I don't really trust anything anymore. With Hunter x Hunter, as much as I liked it, 3/4 of the Chimera Ant Arc was an utter disaster, and it comes only after you get really invested in this thing.

Heck, lately Flip Flappers managed to completely fall apart, so agressively, that I barely noticed when the show turned to shit.

That's why rating a show before it's done seems like a waste of time to me.

*- Monogatari series is an exception. It deserves my trust after such a ridiculous amount of consistantly great content.
 
#7
Jan 17, 2017 4:18 PM

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I don't really have anything to expand upon, but I do have an example.
Nanbaka: It set itself as a wacky comedy that you shouldn't take too seriously. About half-way through there is a shift in tone which is when it started to go down for me. What broke the camel's back was when an episode left a major cliffhanger then the next was a unrealted "filler" episode focusing on a side character. The show pokes fun at it, but pointing out something wrong doesn't make it right. I guess that was the moment where Nanbaka broke my trust. It tried something different that I was sold on, but it didn't even fully pay off. As oppose to a show like Gintama, Nanbaka build up its trust that it can do serious arcs. The irony is that the "filler" if placed eariler could've built up the trust, but instead it was jammed in the middle of something the show couldn't afford to lose.

As for the word "filler", it doesn't really matter if that was how it was like in the source material. An adaptation is a chance for improvement. Jojo:DIU did exactly that and many manga-fans complimented that the story flowed better with the change.
Modified by TakenMalUsername, Jan 17, 2017 5:00 PM
 
#8
Jan 17, 2017 4:43 PM
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Fascinating topic. Sturgeons Law ("90% of everything is crap") comes to mind. If only 1 in 10 productions are quality and worth the viewers time, then it is very difficult to foster a sense of trust.
Does anyone else think that that trust has been violated, and how do you think that anime or media as a whole can reclaim that trust?
 
#9
Jan 17, 2017 7:03 PM
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bakagai said:
how do you think that anime or media as a whole can reclaim that trust?


Not if they make moe animes and loli waifus great again
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Jan 18, 2017 12:57 AM

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Tentology said:
bakagai said:
how do you think that anime or media as a whole can reclaim that trust?


Not if they make moe animes and loli waifus great again
They can do that by having a focus and not looking to cash in on shit because it's popular.
Studio Trigger is like that food you always want but hate when it is sold out in the stores. That's how good Studio Trigger is.
 
Jan 18, 2017 3:53 AM

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bakagai said:
Fascinating topic. Sturgeons Law ("90% of everything is crap") comes to mind. If only 1 in 10 productions are quality and worth the viewers time, then it is very difficult to foster a sense of trust.
Does anyone else think that that trust has been violated, and how do you think that anime or media as a whole can reclaim that trust?

Sturgeon's law is a state of mind, not of reality. In reality, there is a whole bunch of good anime, catering to different audiences and stuff. And only occasionally does an anime fail.

But in a elitist negatively-minded viewer's mind, most anime are bad:
* anime that are meant for other people are ruining anime.
* anime that is exactly like an anime he totally enjoyed last season sucks.
* anime that has only one feature in common with an anime he totally enjoyed last season is a clone/rip-off and sucks.
* anime that he totally enjoys sucks too, because his favorite youtuber did not give it a seal of approval because the writing does not correspond to arbitrary criterion meant for books, not anime.

bakagai said:
Does anyone else think that that trust has been violated, and how do you think that anime or media as a whole can reclaim that trust?

Anime has my trust. Even when they make an anime full of pretty boys for the girls to enjoy, I assume they know what they're doing, and they're doing it fine.
I had my doubts when they made 3rd season of Dog Days, but they did not run out of imagination.
 
Jan 18, 2017 4:09 AM

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I listened to the video till the end.
It seem the word "trust" can be interchange with the word "personal expectation"
Losing trust on particular series meaning you no longer put high expectation from it.
So.... it is subjective?


If that the case, then watching all anime with low expectation is much better than getting hyped by word of mouth.
But again, if you dont "trust" the word of mouth about certain series you didnt like, you probably gonna drop some masterpiece anime with slow start (Steins gate & HxH)
Then, you got overhyped series that only turned into "trainwreck" and lose your "trust" because it went downhill after certain point (I think SAO, Kabaneri, Guilty Crown & Erased can fit here)


*I dunno if my point fit the OP requirement, seem only personal "trust" I can do is to read more & hope about specific studio that can turn source material into anime with .... justice?
Watching style atm:

1. Mindless Gaming + Anime streaming with dual monitor
2. Focused + Anime binged watching with speed up
3. Couch / Bed Anime watching with large TV
4. Relaxing in virtual cinema with VR.
 
Jan 18, 2017 6:45 AM
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iwansquall said:
I listened to the video till the end.
It seem the word "trust" can be interchange with the word "personal expectation"
Losing trust on particular series meaning you no longer put high expectation from it.
So.... it is subjective?


If that the case, then watching all anime with low expectation is much better than getting hyped by word of mouth.
But again, if you dont "trust" the word of mouth about certain series you didnt like, you probably gonna drop some masterpiece anime with slow start (Steins gate & HxH)
Then, you got overhyped series that only turned into "trainwreck" and lose your "trust" because it went downhill after certain point (I think SAO, Kabaneri, Guilty Crown & Erased can fit here)


*I dunno if my point fit the OP requirement, seem only personal "trust" I can do is to read more & hope about specific studio that can turn source material into anime with .... justice?


Cool direction to go with the thread. I do not think that trust can be interchanged with personal expectation. Understand that it is possible not only to lose trust in a particular series, but also with genres, mediums, directors, English vs Japanese dubs, etc.
The fundamental difference is that even after trust has been violated, expectations can still remain at their original level. Consider when a person has an animated negative reaction to a piece of media. They have that reaction because their expectations were not met and trust was broken. Instead of readjusting expectations to meet the quality, they express their displeasure and attempt to explain. The person's level of trust in the production, by contrast, does not remain constant.
It is subjective in that we are discussing a person's response to a production. The objective pursuit is that when trust is broken, people tend to lose interest and become unengaged with a production.
There is also an implication that if expectations are low enough, then everything can be enjoyable which I find ludicrous.
 
Jan 18, 2017 6:57 AM
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flannan said:
bakagai said:
Fascinating topic. Sturgeons Law ("90% of everything is crap") comes to mind. If only 1 in 10 productions are quality and worth the viewers time, then it is very difficult to foster a sense of trust.
Does anyone else think that that trust has been violated, and how do you think that anime or media as a whole can reclaim that trust?

Sturgeon's law is a state of mind, not of reality. In reality, there is a whole bunch of good anime, catering to different audiences and stuff. And only occasionally does an anime fail.

But in a elitist negatively-minded viewer's mind, most anime are bad:
* anime that are meant for other people are ruining anime.
* anime that is exactly like an anime he totally enjoyed last season sucks.
* anime that has only one feature in common with an anime he totally enjoyed last season is a clone/rip-off and sucks.
* anime that he totally enjoys sucks too, because his favorite youtuber did not give it a seal of approval because the writing does not correspond to arbitrary criterion meant for books, not anime.

bakagai said:
Does anyone else think that that trust has been violated, and how do you think that anime or media as a whole can reclaim that trust?

Anime has my trust. Even when they make an anime full of pretty boys for the girls to enjoy, I assume they know what they're doing, and they're doing it fine.
I had my doubts when they made 3rd season of Dog Days, but they did not run out of imagination.


I hope that you might understand that I am critically-minded, rather than an elitist shit poster. There is objective merit to quality productions even they are not appealing to an individual viewer. There are plenty of productions that I acknowledge the quality of even if I do not enjoy them.

There is a distinction to be made between quality and enjoyment. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a low quality production. In fact, I think the bad shows a person enjoys are much more illuminating about that person. What about that bad show was attractive enough that they enjoyed it?

I disagree with Youtubers regularly.

I like Free too ;0
 
Jan 18, 2017 7:16 AM

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I don't ever hold expectations of a show before watching, though I have in cases built up trust in a show with a good start only to be lose trust later.
I swear I'm not a lolicon.

If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate.

Opinions are all relevant. I express mine freely and believe everyone should too. Unless you say "<Insert anime here> is the best! Everything else sucks", then GTFO.
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Jan 18, 2017 7:49 AM
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MasterHavik said:
Tentology said:


Not if they make moe animes and loli waifus great again
They can do that by having a focus and not looking to cash in on shit because it's popular.


Do you think that it might be the fault of the viewers that gobble up the garbage, or are you of the mind that it is on the producers? If so, how do you think it might be best to inspire confidence in producers to fund quality content that isn't currently proven to be equitable in the market?
 
Jan 18, 2017 8:02 AM

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bakagai said:
flannan said:

Sturgeon's law is a state of mind, not of reality. In reality, there is a whole bunch of good anime, catering to different audiences and stuff. And only occasionally does an anime fail.

But in a elitist negatively-minded viewer's mind, most anime are bad:
* anime that are meant for other people are ruining anime.
* anime that is exactly like an anime he totally enjoyed last season sucks.
* anime that has only one feature in common with an anime he totally enjoyed last season is a clone/rip-off and sucks.
* anime that he totally enjoys sucks too, because his favorite youtuber did not give it a seal of approval because the writing does not correspond to arbitrary criterion meant for books, not anime.


Anime has my trust. Even when they make an anime full of pretty boys for the girls to enjoy, I assume they know what they're doing, and they're doing it fine.
I had my doubts when they made 3rd season of Dog Days, but they did not run out of imagination.


I hope that you might understand that I am critically-minded, rather than an elitist shit poster. There is objective merit to quality productions even they are not appealing to an individual viewer. There are plenty of productions that I acknowledge the quality of even if I do not enjoy them.

There is a distinction to be made between quality and enjoyment. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a low quality production. In fact, I think the bad shows a person enjoys are much more illuminating about that person. What about that bad show was attractive enough that they enjoyed it?

I disagree with Youtubers regularly.

I like Free too ;0

Indeed, some anime are better than others. But where you draw the line between good enough and too bad to watch is a state of mind.
Speaking of bad-quality shows that we watch anyway, I'm going to go see the second episode of Kemono Friends now.
 
Jan 18, 2017 9:02 AM
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flannan said:
bakagai said:


I hope that you might understand that I am critically-minded, rather than an elitist shit poster. There is objective merit to quality productions even they are not appealing to an individual viewer. There are plenty of productions that I acknowledge the quality of even if I do not enjoy them.

There is a distinction to be made between quality and enjoyment. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a low quality production. In fact, I think the bad shows a person enjoys are much more illuminating about that person. What about that bad show was attractive enough that they enjoyed it?

I disagree with Youtubers regularly.

I like Free too ;0

Indeed, some anime are better than others. But where you draw the line between good enough and too bad to watch is a state of mind.
Speaking of bad-quality shows that we watch anyway, I'm going to go see the second episode of Kemono Friends now.


Agreed. I hope that you might understand though that Sturgeon's law can refer to the objective quality of content. Deciding whether or not a production is worth a viewer's time is something else entirely. Hope you have fun with Kemono :)
 
Jan 18, 2017 12:38 PM

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bakagai said:
MasterHavik said:
They can do that by having a focus and not looking to cash in on shit because it's popular.


Do you think that it might be the fault of the viewers that gobble up the garbage, or are you of the mind that it is on the producers? If so, how do you think it might be best to inspire confidence in producers to fund quality content that isn't currently proven to be equitable in the market?
If you ask me it is on the producers because if you watch shows like Girlish Number and Shirabko you can tell the producers just care about their money and bottomline and what sells. No matter how bad it looks. It hurts the growth of the media if greedy suits want to keep pushing the same shows. I have seen at least a good handful of idol shows ever since Love Live aired. It's very alarming certain genre and shit are just used as crutch.

I mean I could answer this with, "Just look at Studio Trigger." But that may be unfair.:)
Studio Trigger is like that food you always want but hate when it is sold out in the stores. That's how good Studio Trigger is.
 
Jan 18, 2017 12:50 PM
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MasterHavik said:
bakagai said:


Do you think that it might be the fault of the viewers that gobble up the garbage, or are you of the mind that it is on the producers? If so, how do you think it might be best to inspire confidence in producers to fund quality content that isn't currently proven to be equitable in the market?
If you ask me it is on the producers because if you watch shows like Girlish Number and Shirabko you can tell the producers just care about their money and bottomline and what sells. No matter how bad it looks. It hurts the growth of the media if greedy suits want to keep pushing the same shows. I have seen at least a good handful of idol shows ever since Love Live aired. It's very alarming certain genre and shit are just used as crutch.

I mean I could answer this with, "Just look at Studio Trigger." But that may be unfair.:)


Haha :D

That's a cool idea, but the problem that immediately jumps to mind is that if studios threw caution to the wind and made quality content that wasn't proven to sell, probably more than one studio would bankrupt themselves.

That means all of their future projects go away and we don't get anymore anime out of them. If studios started to go under, then it would also disincentivize future investors from putting their money into anime. This makes me sad.

Glad Trigger takes risks though!

Is there anything that we can do as a community to support them? How do we convince or interest our communities to accept or follow these strategies?
 
Jan 18, 2017 1:08 PM

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bakagai said:
MasterHavik said:
If you ask me it is on the producers because if you watch shows like Girlish Number and Shirabko you can tell the producers just care about their money and bottomline and what sells. No matter how bad it looks. It hurts the growth of the media if greedy suits want to keep pushing the same shows. I have seen at least a good handful of idol shows ever since Love Live aired. It's very alarming certain genre and shit are just used as crutch.

I mean I could answer this with, "Just look at Studio Trigger." But that may be unfair.:)


Haha :D

That's a cool idea, but the problem that immediately jumps to mind is that if studios threw caution to the wind and made quality content that wasn't proven to sell, probably more than one studio would bankrupt themselves.

That means all of their future projects go away and we don't get anymore anime out of them. If studios started to go under, then it would also disincentivize future investors from putting their money into anime. This makes me sad.

Glad Trigger takes risks though!

Is there anything that we can do as a community to support them? How do we convince or interest our communities to accept or follow these strategies?
Oh yeah but this is business and you gotta take risk sometimes. I mean Ed, Edd'n, Eddy was very risky and made on by a dare. But look at that show it is still the highest rated cartoon on CN.

I think if you can't do those super risky original IPs. I would invest in doing research on titles worth adapting. Far too many times I think a lot of these adaptions are made with throwing shit at the wall and not thinking so much.

And for us fans well support the official releases and get our stuff legally. People give places like Viz and Funi shit when they are one of our ways to support these people. The money we spend here has a better chance going into their pockets than their native country. We gotta put our money where our mouth is.
Studio Trigger is like that food you always want but hate when it is sold out in the stores. That's how good Studio Trigger is.
 
Jan 18, 2017 1:12 PM

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I never ever go into anything with pre-existing notions including exceptions any more. Not because I am some pessimistic narcissist that gets off on hating everything. But, simply because I do not want to be in a situation where I am in a dump or bad mood just because I had high expectations for something and it lets me down. fortunately I usually can find at least two enjoyable things about a show. But, that's not the point. Now, I will say if the show is having a second or third season and you enjoyed the previous seasons I would suspect that the average viewer would be excited and have some form of high expectation I mean, why not? the previous seasons were great so this one should be to right!? wrong! (psycho pass comes to mind).

People have to remember as viewers we are never guaranteed anything(same with life. Sad, I know.) its wishful thinking which is nothing wrong with. But, any narrative can have a tone swift at any given moment sometimes it works sometimes it don't. I can understand if something or someone is consistent in their deliver surely their efforts and achievements will warrant them the benefit of the doubt (as they should) from the audience. But, even then you have to be careful.

This is why I dislike when someone jumps on something just because of the names and or studio behind it. Occultic; Nine comes to mind. I am not saying don't get excited about things just go in with a level head. it is perfectly fine to have some sort of expectation especially if it is from a direct or mangaka that you like
 
Jan 18, 2017 11:40 PM

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bakagai said:
Is there anything that we can do as a community to support them? How do we convince or interest our communities to accept or follow these strategies?

Well, Kickstarter and other crowdfunding schemes are a good way to fund things that have trouble paying off (for example anything subject to piracy, or anything intended to be distributed for free). It has its downsides, but it is a better reflection of demand than some producer's (un)educated guesses. As a bonus, it has differential pricing, which means not only people who can pay 60$+ per disk get a say.

Malformation said:
This is why I dislike when someone jumps on something just because of the names and or studio behind it. Occultic; Nine comes to mind. I am not saying don't get excited about things just go in with a level head. it is perfectly fine to have some sort of expectation especially if it is from a direct or mangaka that you like

People who were disappointed by Occultic;Nine did not do their research. Steins;Gate is really popular, but Other;Titles are not. In my opinion, Occultic;Nine is a lot like Chaos;Head, so there was no fraud on the part of the authors. It's the viewers that were expecting something else.
 
Jan 18, 2017 11:47 PM

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flannan said:
People who were disappointed by Occultic;Nine did not do their research. Steins;Gate is really popular, but Other;Titles are not. In my opinion, Occultic;Nine is a lot like Chaos;Head, so there was no fraud on the part of the authors. It's the viewers that were expecting something else.


People always expecting something out of these Other;Titles need to stop. Steins;Gate was more an exception than a standard we should expect.

Viewers often build an expectation before a series even starts, which is why I find they either don't enjoy these series or delude themselves into thinking it's good. Personally I hate hype, or at least pre-season hype, I only build expectations from how serious the show takes itself and how well executed the initial episodes are.
I swear I'm not a lolicon.

If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate.

Opinions are all relevant. I express mine freely and believe everyone should too. Unless you say "<Insert anime here> is the best! Everything else sucks", then GTFO.
My MAL Interview
 
Jan 19, 2017 4:06 AM

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Malformation said:
I never ever go into anything with pre-existing notions including exceptions any more. Not because I am some pessimistic narcissist that gets off on hating everything. But, simply because I do not want to be in a situation where I am in a dump or bad mood just because I had high expectations for something and it lets me down. fortunately I usually can find at least two enjoyable things about a show. But, that's not the point. Now, I will say if the show is having a second or third season and you enjoyed the previous seasons I would suspect that the average viewer would be excited and have some form of high expectation I mean, why not? the previous seasons were great so this one should be to right!? wrong! (psycho pass comes to mind).

People have to remember as viewers we are never guaranteed anything(same with life. Sad, I know.) its wishful thinking which is nothing wrong with. But, any narrative can have a tone swift at any given moment sometimes it works sometimes it don't. I can understand if something or someone is consistent in their deliver surely their efforts and achievements will warrant them the benefit of the doubt (as they should) from the audience. But, even then you have to be careful.

This is why I dislike when someone jumps on something just because of the names and or studio behind it. Occultic; Nine comes to mind. I am not saying don't get excited about things just go in with a level head. it is perfectly fine to have some sort of expectation especially if it is from a direct or mangaka that you like
That is why I don't bother taking the time to know names behind shows because I have seen bad shows from studios and people I like in the anime business. Though in anime's case, I feel people learn their names so they can try and sound smart when talking about the shows.
Studio Trigger is like that food you always want but hate when it is sold out in the stores. That's how good Studio Trigger is.
 
Jan 19, 2017 4:51 AM

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MasterHavik said:
Malformation said:
I never ever go into anything with pre-existing notions including exceptions any more. Not because I am some pessimistic narcissist that gets off on hating everything. But, simply because I do not want to be in a situation where I am in a dump or bad mood just because I had high expectations for something and it lets me down. fortunately I usually can find at least two enjoyable things about a show. But, that's not the point. Now, I will say if the show is having a second or third season and you enjoyed the previous seasons I would suspect that the average viewer would be excited and have some form of high expectation I mean, why not? the previous seasons were great so this one should be to right!? wrong! (psycho pass comes to mind).

People have to remember as viewers we are never guaranteed anything(same with life. Sad, I know.) its wishful thinking which is nothing wrong with. But, any narrative can have a tone swift at any given moment sometimes it works sometimes it don't. I can understand if something or someone is consistent in their deliver surely their efforts and achievements will warrant them the benefit of the doubt (as they should) from the audience. But, even then you have to be careful.

This is why I dislike when someone jumps on something just because of the names and or studio behind it. Occultic; Nine comes to mind. I am not saying don't get excited about things just go in with a level head. it is perfectly fine to have some sort of expectation especially if it is from a direct or mangaka that you like
That is why I don't bother taking the time to know names behind shows because I have seen bad shows from studios and people I like in the anime business. Though in anime's case, I feel people learn their names so they can try and sound smart when talking about the shows.

Quality might not be very consistent, but many authors have a distinctive style that makes you think "ooh, this one was really drawn by Urushihara Satoshi!" or "This one is written by Urobuchi Gen. I'd better avoid it, even though it's part of my favorite Nasuverse".
 
Jan 19, 2017 10:06 AM

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flannan said:
MasterHavik said:
That is why I don't bother taking the time to know names behind shows because I have seen bad shows from studios and people I like in the anime business. Though in anime's case, I feel people learn their names so they can try and sound smart when talking about the shows.

Quality might not be very consistent, but many authors have a distinctive style that makes you think "ooh, this one was really drawn by Urushihara Satoshi!" or "This one is written by Urobuchi Gen. I'd better avoid it, even though it's part of my favorite Nasuverse".
Yeah but since 90% percent of anime is just adaptions. That style they have is cripple.
Studio Trigger is like that food you always want but hate when it is sold out in the stores. That's how good Studio Trigger is.
 
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