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#1
Jan 14, 2017 2:05 PM
Mugiwara-sensei

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What do you think? High budget animes like Fate/Zero or like ONE PIECE FILM GOLD cost a lot for studios. So does 2D/3D hybrid cost less? This method of animation might gave bad experience to those who watched Berserk (2016), but what about Guilty Gear Xrd? Just look at it from anime perspective instead of a game. I always wonder if this kind of animation method is the best solution for remake of old TV-series such as Rurouni Kenshin, One Piece, Dragon Ball Z, Hukto no Ken, etc.

What's your thoughts on 2D/3D hybrid animation?
 
#2
Jan 14, 2017 2:10 PM

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3D sucks. Always. I hate 3D animation.
But it's only my opinion.
I don't mind CG post-processing, but 3D animation sucks.
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Yeah, Comet Lucifer is the only exception where I didn't mind 3D mechas. But it costs a lot of money to do something which is imitating 2D and looks good enough.
Dub = fake crap. Always.
 
#3
Jan 14, 2017 2:10 PM

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If it's done as well as in Comet Lucifer, sure
If it's as eyerapingly bad as in Rewrite, I'd slit my wrists
 
#4
Jan 14, 2017 2:10 PM

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yeah, hand shakers is a really good anime (lulz)
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#5
Jan 14, 2017 2:19 PM

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It's already being done a lot (to varying degrees of success).

I'd say the less 3D characters, the better.
 
#6
Jan 14, 2017 2:55 PM

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There are some things that don't really translate well to 2D, and 3D is the only sensible way to do it. I'd say that it's a good option.
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#7
Jan 14, 2017 3:04 PM

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It's been done more times than we think.
The thing is, we only notice bad cgi. When done well, it can really fit in with the 2D animation, even tho if you focus you can tell it's CGI.
I can only think of two examples now, but with pretty noticeable CGI: Tales OF Zestiria the X and God Eater, but i'm certain there are more shows that do it well without it being as obvious.
Tell me that those two shows don't look good.
 
#8
Jan 14, 2017 8:21 PM

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2D/3D Hybrid Animation is some πŸ‘ŒπŸ‘€πŸ‘ŒπŸ‘€πŸ‘ŒπŸ‘€πŸ‘ŒπŸ‘€πŸ‘ŒπŸ‘€ good shit go౦ԁ sHitπŸ‘Œ
 
#9
Jan 14, 2017 8:22 PM

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Well whatever sells. 3D animation rarely does.
 
Jan 14, 2017 8:38 PM

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Denpai said:
Well whatever sells. 3D animation rarely does.

But there's 3D in like everything though.

Even Erased had like a metric fuck ton of it.
 
Jan 14, 2017 8:46 PM

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TitanAnteus said:
Denpai said:
Well whatever sells. 3D animation rarely does.

But there's 3D in like everything though.

Even Erased had like a metric fuck ton of it.

Er I wasn't talking about hybrids, I was giving an example: there aren't many full on 3D shows out there.
 
Jan 14, 2017 9:00 PM
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3d is better, but they don't have the budget to make it look as good as a western cartoon. I am not sure if its just bad directing or budget but the reason 3d CG looks awful in anime is they are using the same animation shortcuts they do in 2d animation. When you transition those shortcuts to 3d animation it looks pretty jarring and awful most of the time which is why they should out source their stuff to talented 3d animators instead of doing it in house.
 
Jan 14, 2017 10:04 PM

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Well as typical as this might sound I firmly believe that it all depends on how high the budget is. 3D in anime usually looks apalling but given a high amount òf budget then it can produce high quality work like Final Fantasy and the Resident Evil CGI movies. People were complaining of the 3D backgrounds in Tales of Zestiria but I personally loved it and thought it was well done and though the dragons might need some more work, they're still better than most especially since it's actually moving violently and the movements were pretty fluid in my eyes.
 
Jan 14, 2017 10:19 PM

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I've answered on this topic a lot of times, but anime is already combining those two, the characters, as well as the world are in 3D, but it uses an illusion to trick the viewer and makes the characters look like they're 2D.

Now, how they'll blend, depends on how much resources they're having in order to blend it more nicely, so it doesn't feel artificial or out of place.
 
Jan 14, 2017 10:22 PM

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Sure. Just do it correctly, like Fate/Zero, Attack on Titan, and Sword of the Stranger, as these anime know when the time is right to use it.

If your studio doesn't have the budget and/or competence to pull it off, then don't bother.
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Jan 14, 2017 10:57 PM

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I believe most of the anime community prefers 2D animation over 3D animation, though I don't have any proof or reference of that, it's just what I see. But, as the technology evolved, the introduction of more and more 3D elements in anime has become simpler, cheaper and, therefore, more popular.

3D animation can be user primarily, as we can see in the fully 3D animated anime (Ajin, Bubuki Buranki, Sidonia no Kishi, Berserk), or in supporting/backgroung elements (monsters, a wide variety of objects, or as a substitute to scenes with a lot of moving things, such as some Love Live dancing scenes).

By what I usually see, many people dislike both cases, but mostly the first case. It's not unusual to see people looking down on a show in the moment they know that it'll be fully 3D animated. If you look in some of the "expectations/PV/Trailer" threads of these 3D anime, it may become clear to you.

Now to the real thing.
I think that 3D animation usually is not as beautiful as 2D animation, not even close. Though I know it'd need a lot of effort and budget to do something 3D animated that can be called beautiful, but that's my opinion. However, even if it's not good looking, it's not that bad either, if used well.

Even so, I guess its use makes the show easier to animate. It's a lot easier to animate a 3D model than to draw a scene frame by frame, specially on scenes with a lot of motion. I've already heard of the problems about producing anime (overwork, lack of human resources, tight schedule), so it's probably a big help.

I wouldn't be happy if all anime were 3D animated, but it's not like I hate it. I liked Ajin a lot, and the animation didn't even bothered me much. So, yeah... nothing against it, but I hope it doesn't become a standard.
Modified by KuuhakuDesu, Jan 14, 2017 11:01 PM




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Jan 15, 2017 10:12 AM

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It depends if the studio is actually good at it. In my opinion, Ufotable is the master of 2D/3D hybrid animation.

If you look at studio GoHands with their shitty animation for Hand Shakers, then it might not be a good option for them. Hand Shakers' animation is a real shithole, I'm telling you.
 
Jan 15, 2017 10:13 AM

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nope the only animes i accept are made in MS paint.
 
Jan 15, 2017 10:53 AM

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I don't believe Ufotable is making TV anime with movie budgets.
Canipa Effect video on Ufotable (I don't know how to post a video)

I know for 3D mechs that 2D is acutally cheaper, but having good looking 2D mechs requires experienced animators. The reason for 3D is because there are (relatively) few people in the industry who can do 2D. The only studio really doing 2D mecha anime is Sunrise. When they do use 3D CG, it looks good and blends well, ex. Gundam Unicorn.
Modified by TakenMalUsername, Jan 15, 2017 11:03 AM
 
Jan 15, 2017 1:05 PM

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I liked Ajin animation alot.
It was 3D but not so striking.
On the contrary, I hated the animation on Garo and Karas.
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Jan 15, 2017 1:26 PM

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GangsterCat said:
yeah, hand shakers is a really good anime (lulz)


2D/3D animation is far from being Handshaker's problem. First, the 3D used was just way worse than what some anime studios can accomplish today (those chains looked so bad). Second, It wouldn't be so bad if the image movement and angles didn't look like they were made by an amateur cameramen on his first attempt at filming.
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Jan 15, 2017 1:52 PM

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When it is done right, and it isn't even noticeable, I think it is great, but if it sticks out like a sore thumb, it can fuck off immediately.
 
Jan 15, 2017 2:02 PM

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I love 2D/3D hybrids! No question about it. Many old shows that don't use any 3D look a lot worse in comparison in my opinion. Of course, bad animation looks bad, regardless of the number of dimensions. When these hybrids are done well, they without a question look better than well made pure 2D in my opinion.

If you ask me, make all geometric objects (buildings, furniture, cars) 3D and all organic ones (people, animals, trees, foliage) 2D and you're on the right track. Or I suppose trees and foliage can look great as hybrids, too.

When cars and cities are created in 3D, it makes panning shots look so much more dynamic and nice looking. Changing perspective is really difficult to do in 2D, but when done right in 3D, it looks very stunning. One of my biggest pet peeves is cars drawn in 2D: they nearly always look absolutely hideous, especially if they turn around a corner or the camera angle shifts and they warp out of shape.

Btw, I don't understand the praise of Tales of Zestiria the X. The animation was very mediocre, both the 2D and the 3D. They had just slapped some pretty post-processing onto it to make it look flashier, but things just ended up looking very out of place most of the time. For me personally, Hibike is a great example of well integrated and executed use of 3D and post-processing: compare it to animes in its genre with 2D instruments, where you get slide-show animation during musical performances or strategically hiding fingers and moving components in the instruments.

rsc-pl said:
3D sucks. Always. I hate 3D animation.
But it's only my opinion.
I don't mind CG post-processing, but 3D animation sucks.

So, could you clarify, did you favourite Clannad After Story and Steins;Gate despite their awful animation? Or were you able to overlook the hideous 3D because its use wasn't so abundant? Or is it perhaps, that the 3D was integrated so well that you mistook it for 2D? Or were you just sitting there thinking, "Damn, I love Steins;Gate, but I just wish those darn bananas weren't 3D..."?
Modified by 0kku, Jan 15, 2017 2:07 PM
 
Jan 15, 2017 11:19 PM

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0kku said:


So, could you clarify, did you favourite Clannad After Story and Steins;Gate despite their awful animation? Or were you able to overlook the hideous 3D because its use wasn't so abundant? Or is it perhaps, that the 3D was integrated so well that you mistook it for 2D? Or were you just sitting there thinking, "Damn, I love Steins;Gate, but I just wish those darn bananas weren't 3D..."?

Sorry, but it's your opinion.
For me Clannad has beautiful art (tbh it's one of the best looking series for me) and good animation. Show me where KyoAni used 3D in Clannad.
Same goes to Steins;Gate. Show me where White Fox used 3D there except small things in background and bananas that you mentioned.
I'm talking about 3D like characters in main town in ReZero, mecha in Aldnoah.Zero, almost all Ufotable series and movies, all GoHands series and movies, using full 3d backgrounds, crappy 3DCG monsters and characters in Rewrite, all 3D vehicles or even full 3d shit like Sidonia or Ajin.

PS, sorry it is bugging me. If you think that Clannad looks bad, then you are literally blind, sorry.
Modified by rsc-pl, Jan 15, 2017 11:41 PM
Dub = fake crap. Always.
 
Jan 15, 2017 11:27 PM

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It could be a good option if 2D and 3D were indistinguishable. That way, it could save the anime money, and the animation for important scenes could be better. Unfortunately, 99% of the time, nobody can use 3D right, so the 3D looks like crap and is distracting.
 
Jan 15, 2017 11:30 PM

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Tbh I don't care as long as I don't notice how trippy it is. They can use it to animate the not so important shit, but make sure they bloody draw my attention away to somewhere else so I'm not looking directly at a 3D animated thing for a prolonged period of time and noticing the stiffness.

I'm sure 3D will improve over time, but at the moment it breaks my immersion most of the time.
Modified by BurningSpirit, Jan 16, 2017 12:48 AM
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Jan 15, 2017 11:31 PM

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CG or 3D, I cant guess the difference, does anyone know?.

I hate CG in 2d anime, they are not fit together.
western 3D animation is great. But I like anime more.

Budget? I think it depends on the talented crew who does the project.


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Jan 15, 2017 11:33 PM
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its the future since there is lack of new animators right now while more and more anime are being produce so computer animation is the likely solution to the problem of animator scarcity

you will hear news like only 1 out of 10 animators remain on the job
http://goboiano.com/news/5597-anime-creators-speak-out-saying-%2522a-slave-revolt-will-come%2522

9 out of 10 (90%) new workers (like animators) leave the anime industry after 3 years of working there ο»Ώ http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703819904574551834260925714

plus you already heard that animators salary is low paying

that 2D/3D hybrid actually has a word called 2.5D animation and its not a new term but a word adapted by the anime industry from the gaming world http://yattatachi.com/japanese-animation-post-miyazaki
 
Jan 15, 2017 11:52 PM

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rsc-pl said:
0kku said:


So, could you clarify, did you favourite Clannad After Story and Steins;Gate despite their awful animation? Or were you able to overlook the hideous 3D because its use wasn't so abundant? Or is it perhaps, that the 3D was integrated so well that you mistook it for 2D? Or were you just sitting there thinking, "Damn, I love Steins;Gate, but I just wish those darn bananas weren't 3D..."?

Sorry, but it's your opinion.
For me Clannad has beautiful art (tbh it's one of the best looking series for me) and good animation. Show me where KyoAni used 3D in Clannad.
Same goes to Steins;Gate. Show me where White Fox used 3D there except small things in background and bananas that you mentioned.
I'm talking about 3D like characters in main town in ReZero, mecha in Aldnoah.Zero, almost all Ufotable series and movies, all GoHands series, using full 3d backgrounds, shitty 3DCG monsters and characters in Rewrite, or even full 3d shit like Sidonia or Ajin.

Well you said 3D is garbage. And since this thread is about 2D/3D hybrids, it made me assume, that you meant all 3D is garbage, including those bananas. I also took the liberty of reading your thoughts on CG on your profile, which to me only reassured this assessment. So, for this reason, in my opinion bringing your opinion of the art in above-mentioned shows into question was warranted.

Obviously neither Steins;Gate nor Clannad has anything close to the level of 3D use as in Ajin or Ufotable productions. However, both of those did use some 3D, and you made it sound like it was a bad thing, so I asked for clarification. To me, the different was very obvious in both of these examples, but it was for the better.

In Clannad it was very minor, but I distinctively remember some stuff that stood out, like a 3D baseball at the end of ep1 or the blades of grass in the field where the robot toy walked in her story. Same deal with S;G: they didn't do people in 3D, but a lot of the objects and background stuff was definitely done in 3D, and imo it was better for it.

Ufotable generally does 3D pretty poorly, in my opinion anyway. And people in the background of R:Z were undeniably hideous. But I think it's an unfair comparison to compare good 2D to bad 3D. After all, the discussion was about whether anime is better for 3D, not about whether bad 3D exists. Of course, the industry has been taking baby steps with 3D, trying to figure out what works and what doesn't, so there has been a lot of examples of bad 3D.

When doing a hybrid, I think the most important metric of execution is how little the mix stands out. The key is not making the 3D stand out, but to instead make it look like a natural part of the world. A common mistake that's made is, if the shadows are a lot more realistic on the 3D models than on the 2D ones, then they look out of place and that's bad. So, good 3D is 3D that you don't notice. When you notice it, it's usually because it's done poorly, and I think this is the reason 3D gets a bad rep.

There are very obvious benefits to using 3D and CG (which I already discussed). I think as the studios iron out their expertise with the use of CG, we're in for more and more stunning looking animes. So, dismissing all 3D as "garbage" is really unwarranted in my opinion. Especially, when you've clearly enjoyed the art in shows that have made use of it.
Modified by 0kku, Jan 15, 2017 11:57 PM
 
Jan 16, 2017 12:12 AM

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Luuji222 said:
CG or 3D, I cant guess the difference, does anyone know?.

CG means computer generated, not necessarily 3D. Non-3D examples are lens flares, depth of field boké, reflections, atmospheric effects, computer generated textures, shaders, motion blur, lighting effects, etc. Much of this falls under the umbrella of post-production effects.
 
Jan 16, 2017 12:21 AM

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0kku said:


There are very obvious benefits to using 3D and CG (which I already discussed). I think as the studios iron out their expertise with the use of CG, we're in for more and more stunning looking animes. So, dismissing all 3D as "garbage" is really unwarranted in my opinion. Especially, when you've clearly enjoyed the art in shows that have made use of it.

So let me correct myself.
As long as 3D is unrecognizable, I'm ok with it.
Dub = fake crap. Always.
 
Jan 16, 2017 12:31 AM

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0kku said:
Luuji222 said:
CG or 3D, I cant guess the difference, does anyone know?.

CG means computer generated, not necessarily 3D. Non-3D examples are lens flares, depth of field boké, reflections, atmospheric effects, computer generated textures, shaders, motion blur, lighting effects, etc. Much of this falls under the umbrella of post-production effects.
ahhh I see.
now it's clear to me. thanks m8.


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Jan 16, 2017 12:32 AM

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I always fascinated with 3D stuff in 2D anime since early gonzo era, despite they are usually not that great. But it gave sense of scale if it done for grand space / air battles (Last exile, space yamato 2199)

There was hybrid animation in the past (cant remember if gonzo anime got it or not) but when I saw Studio UFO showcase, Im surprised how neat now the hybrid with moving camera angle in Kyoukai.. (I forgot the title 7 movies thingy). I think recent 2 season of pokemon also have hybrid for their gym battle.

Then you factor in couple of them from high budget movie (mononoke have it, steamboy also have awesome one), it look pretty when it done properly.

Only Im not really a fan of is the current low frame per second (8 or 24?) of 3D that seem try to seem mimic anime low frames without interlace.
*Thankfully I dun have much problem with them now because of my signature lol


As for Clannad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOuEVrpbg3U

I think most of the character are 3D animation, but it still have awesome animation because of the visual and it looked smooth (more frame per second)

Edited because apparently @ sign with make link to particular person
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Jan 16, 2017 12:42 AM

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I guess, YES. The key of success is the story development. I guess, good or bad the score of an anime is depend on the story. That's it.
Modified by captb3664, Jan 16, 2017 1:22 AM
 
Jan 16, 2017 1:22 AM

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The less 3D they use the better.....
 
Jan 16, 2017 9:12 PM
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If they didn't put out crap that looked like a cut scene from a PS2 game, sure, but I doubt they will ever have the budget to make a series look as great as Kingsglaive.
 
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