In the long run, it all comes down on how YOU experienced a show... in deciding which anime you like and consider a masterpiece
| I personally consider Steins;Gate to be perfect and a masterpiece. I haven't found any plot holes in the series or anything that is just out of context. Every character is relevant and everything that happens is well done and necessary to the plot. Well, but that's all IMO, though. romagia said: Kimi no Pico Wa is literally the best anime ever created, and a critical success (almost as big as Bananya) Bananya is not a masterpiece, it's THE anime itself. Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button. |
ShockedDec 18, 2016 12:52 PM
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| I like to analyze shows when I watch, but it goes hand in hand with how I experience the show as a whole. Things add up, and great stuff is great stuff. But people have different interests, and the greatest animu ever for me isn't necessarily that for others. But I do think in general you can say whether a show is of great quality or not based on several "check points". Even if you didn't love it yourself. The thing I hate most though is people bashing a show simply because it doesn't cater to their specific interests. I love lots of shitty quality shows with poorly developed characters and plot holes, and that's okay. Having to justify why you love something is stupid anyway. Sometimes it's just about how it makes you feel. |
| "In this world, evil can arise from the best of intentions. And there is good which can come from evil intentions" |
zal said: CapitalistGod said: Ok but I still think it is quite an egocentric way to view it. If the only thing that matters to you is your experience or opinion you shouldn't visit anime forums or never talk about anime with anyone. If the only thing that should matter to you is your experience then what's the point of communities? (Assuming your intention is not to impose your experience/opinion on others)@zal It's just a question of semantics then? I'm sorry I can't express myself very well in English that well. Anyways, for yourself alone, it is what matters. No matter what changes your tastes had undergone, at the moment it is the only thing that matters. That's why I used "long run". Your experience with an anime(and how you absolutely love it or whatnot) is the only thing that should matter to YOU in the end(or in the long run). Critical consensus or any other external matters should really matter a little or become irrelevant. If no one cares about other people opinion or critical view on something there's basically no discussion. You are just avoiding confrontation with others. Of course you can discuss it but in the end that's the only thing that (ought to) matter. No one can talk you out of your experience of a show, it is yours alone. If you absolutely love it and call it perfect(or a masterpiece) for whatever reason then no matter what people say about said show doesn't really matter. truisms said: CapitalistGod said: Critical analysis that make it a point to point out how they we're personally affected by a show, sure... It still is entirely personal. no it isn't. lol. and again, what YOU or any one individual thinks of a show DOES NOT MATTER IN THE LONG RUN. period. in the long run it matters less than what you had for breakfast this morning. nobody gives a shit whatsoever what you thought of a show. what matters in the long run is whether the objective elements of a show resonate with a number of people to the degree that they feel it deserves to be discussed. not whether or not you enjoyed it. you're not arguing your point at all, you're just changing your argument to become broader and broader every time i challenge one of your points What matters to an individual in the long run(or in the end cause semantics) is his/her experience of a show. Everything you said doesn't matter. Me loving Fairy Tail and considering it a masterpiece because of my own personal reasons is the only thing that matters to me even if the whole worlds says that it is a flawed show. @NihilLoli_Gasan As far as I am concerned, I only analyze shows I love or really liked. Even after doing that, if a show doesn't hold up... it really doesn't diminish the fact that I love it and still consider it perfect. Also, you can't devalue the value of emotional resonance in discussions concerning this medium. Appreciation starts with it for christ sake. I mean, I can't for good conscience call something a masterpiece if I find it lacking in that department. Clebardman said: That title reached new levels of Captain Obviousness. Like, huh, that's great and all, but there gotta be reasons why you liked X o Y show, and the validity of these reasons is what makes your opinion interesting or not. Yeah, enjoying something is a key part of enjoying it (!), but if you got no reason, or if your reason is "The MC has blue hair and I like blue/cool superpowers/the girls had nice tattas", I'm going to take you less seriously than someone who gives me... more intellectually stimulating answers. Sure, if they can do that.... Nice. I actually agree with that but for the people holding those opinions, they really have no reason to care if we take them seriously or not, are there? Their reasons is theirs alone and ours are ours alone... |
ethotDec 17, 2016 7:58 PM
| Ultimately yes that's true, when it comes to deciding what you consider a masterpiece by your own standards, but I wouldn't go as far to say that all the technicalities of analyzing a show thoroughly doesn't matter. I mean no matter what, scores and ratings will never be objective, but it doesn't hurt to try and objectively rate as much as you can imo. I honestly feel like you're only doing yourself and others a disservice by not trying to observe things from multiple perspectives. With that being said as long as you personally are happy with the ratings you give a show and think its fair game, then that's that. Others may drastically disagree with that opinion as well, it's two sides of the same coin. Yin & Yang you know? they just co-exist with some gray in the middle. Realistically nothing will ever be universally perfect, we can only attribute a 10 to something personally considered one of the best within anime, aka a masterpiece. Doesn't mean it's a perfect show though. |
| I just want to add popular doesn't mean great and the majority doesn't determine greatness either. We're all unique individuals with unique individual tastes. Some of those tastes flow along similar lines, but not all. Just because 99% of anime fans hated your favorite anime and loved your most hated anime, doesn't make either side right or wrong. |
That's the problem with eternal damnation, you get used to it after a while |
| Saying "I like this anime" and saying "I think this anime is a good piece of work or masterpiece" are different. You can considered anime you like as masterpiece even if it flawed, but not all of people has that way of thinking. Being objective doesn't mean being completely objective. In this relative world, "objective" is just a lens. Decide something is good / bad even in "objective" lens is still personal. |
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime" "Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system." "Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime" "Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit". "Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism" |
Kurniawan_Ktr said: Saying "I like this anime" and saying "I think this anime is a good piece of work or masterpiece" are different. You can considered anime you like as masterpiece even if it flawed, but not all of people has that way of thinking. Being objective doesn't mean being completely objective. In this relative world, "objective" is just a lens. Decide something is good / bad even in "objective" lens is still personal. I think both statements are similar. "I love this anime" and "This anime is a masterpiece" mean pretty much the same thing. All opinions are subjective. There is no apparatus that objectively measures anime or art in general. But, y'know, subjectivity doesn't mean we can't explain our opinion. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
CapitalistGod said: It doesn't matter when saying that you enjoyed it or whatever show is your favourite.zal said: Ok but I still think it is quite an egocentric way to view it. If the only thing that matters to you is your experience or opinion you shouldn't visit anime forums or never talk about anime with anyone. If the only thing that should matter to you is your experience then what's the point of communities? (Assuming your intention is not to impose your experience/opinion on others) If no one cares about other people opinion or critical view on something there's basically no discussion. You are just avoiding confrontation with others. Of course you can discuss it but in the end that's the only thing that (ought to) matter. No one can talk you out of your experience of a show, it is yours alone. If you absolutely love it and call it perfect(or a masterpiece) for whatever reason then no matter what people say about said show doesn't really matter. But when saying a show is good or masterpiece it does matter what other people have to say about it. You are trying to ascertain its quality and despite quality being subjective you can argue pro or against it. In the case of Kimi no na wa Gigguk says it is very emotional, others say that it has plot holes that make it less enjoyable. Depends on you what is more important to you or what impacted you more but completely ignoring any criticism is the same as haters hating on it just because it is popular. Kinda relevant to the topic until 4:45 https://youtu.be/tQtb3R1Hmxw?t=2m50s It basically says that critics are not trying to prohibit you from enjoying a show and that's not their fault you value their opinion so much that you get offended when they disagree with you. By the way mark my word, Kimi no na wa will be called critically acclaimed not long after it will become available on the internet in HD so that video will become even more pointless than now. |
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| My favourite anime is Madoka Magica and I consider it a masterpiece. I find it sometimes really hard to look at things objectively because my feelings for a series gets in the way. |
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| @CapitalistGod "everything you said doesn't matter" i mean, okay then. nothing you have said matters because you're embracing tautology - again, you're going against your original point, which is that "fun" matters more than "dry, critical stuff," by saying that any type of enjoyment of a show, including for dry technical reasons, falls under the category of "personal experience" which is a totally different argument you went from in the long run, only your enjoyment of a show matters --> to YOU only your enjoyment of a show matters --> whether or not you 'enjoy' a show in the way the video posted intended is irrelevant because all forms of consuming shows and rating them qualify as enjoyment you may be right there, but even if you are right, if you define enjoyment of a show as literally any type of positive response to it you've made your categories so broad you have no point whatsoever. so every type of enjoyment, including 'elitist' criticism, qualifies as personal enjoyment? my only response to that is okay, sure, what does that have to do with literally anything, in the end or in the long run (since 'the long run' isn't semantics anyways, it's literally the term you chose to use). whether or not you think an anime is fun or enjoyable to watch has nothing to do with that anime in the long run OR in the end. if you want to classify critical analysis as personal, that's fine. i have no issue with that. my only issue is with the idea that whether or not an anime is fun or enjoyable has any bearing on its quality whatsoever. if you want to argue with that be my guest |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Ckan said: CapitalistGod said: Quite simply, that is wrong.If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. Well, if you do, then it is. What matters is YOU. YOU do not matter. YOU are nothing. Less than a speck in the cosmos of existence. Your temporal moment, your second of experience is not even a drop in the ocean of human existence. Community matters. People matter. Lives matter. YOU the person do not matter. How YOU feel does not matter. Nobody cares what YOU like. The text matters. The anime matters. The consensus matters, but never YOU. What matters is not how YOU relate, but how YOU might affect the world. But that is not YOU, that is the world in reaction to YOU. YOU are meaningful only as a statistic. Your life exists only in the reflection of our wider consciousness, and YOU cannot exist without us. So no, YOU can like as much as you want, but YOU are as irrelevant as the grain of sand on a seashore. You're a retard and your comment makes no sense. If YOU doesn't matter than why does community matters? Community is just a bunch of those YOU that you say doesn't matter. |
themanualreader@proton.me |
| @TheBrainintheJar Well, if they are the same thing, then they would be implicate each other (1) People will like something if they think that thing is good And (2) people think something is good because they like it But for me personally, it's not usually the case. Shows that I consider as "Good" are technically well made show and gives "supposed" massage and emotional impact to the audience. I can see why people think monogatari series as a good franchise. But I don't like the idea of harem which prevent me to enjoy it. On the other hand, I think Boah is not a "good" show by my criteria, but I liked it because it has many gore scenes. Agree, opinions are subjective, But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try as fair as possible. I also agree that there's no such apparatus that objectively measures anime. "Quality" can't be measure directly after all. But we can make our own instrument, using our own criteria and be as fair as possible without too much invested our preferences, can't we? Though I still think people should rate anime however they want |
Kurniawan_KtrDec 18, 2016 3:43 PM
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime" "Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system." "Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime" "Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit". "Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism" |
| Yea. K-On!! was just a regular moe show. But I have good memories of watching it on my couch, with my dog, taking naps while watching. It's my napping show |
 "The sun is my enemy, but the moon has been good to me." |
| @truisms my only issue is with the idea that whether or not an anime is fun or enjoyable has any bearing on its quality whatsoever That's what I think I've been pointing out for the longest time. The quality of a show can only be ascertained by each viewer's subjective experience. Sure, I believe that there are still standards that exists when it comes to this issue but I'm just one person and no matter what I say to another person.... if they still think of a show as a masterpiece because of their own personal reasons(especially emotional reasons), I can't do anything there. It's still a quality anime to them no matter how I explain that it is not because it's their own experience and I can't take that away from them. In the end, what you and me think doesn't matter to a guy who loves an anime for some reason that we deem as bad. He'll still think of it as a masterpiece. So yeah, *fun* and enjoyment has a bearing to quality of an anime at least to those who think it is quality. It doesn't even matter if they decide to back it up and is open to discussing it, if they decide to... then it's good but if they don't, they'll still retain that love they have for their beloved anime, no matter what, and will think that it is the best anime out there. What you or I think about this show doesn't really matter there, ain't it? |
CapitalistGod said: @truisms my only issue is with the idea that whether or not an anime is fun or enjoyable has any bearing on its quality whatsoever That's what I think I've been pointing out for the longest time. The quality of a show can only be ascertained by each viewer's subjective experience. Sure, I believe that there are still standards that exists when it comes to this issue but I'm just one person and no matter what I say to another person.... if they still think of a show as a masterpiece because of their own personal reasons(especially emotional reasons), I can't do anything there. It's still a quality anime to them no matter how I explain that it is not because it's their own experience and I can't take that away from them. In the end, what you and me think doesn't matter to a guy who loves an anime for some reason that we deem as bad. He'll still think of it as a masterpiece. So yeah, *fun* and enjoyment has a bearing to quality of an anime at least to those who think it is quality. It doesn't even matter if they decide to back it up and is open to discussing it, if they decide to... then it's good but if they don't, they'll still retain that love they have for their beloved anime, no matter what, and will think that it is the best anime out there. sure? What you or I think about this show doesn't really matter there, ain't it? precisely, what matters in a work's status is critical analysis, not whether or not somebody enjoyed it |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Ckan said: RIP to your soul, may it forever rest in purgatory.CapitalistGod said: Quite simply, that is wrong.If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. Well, if you do, then it is. What matters is YOU. YOU do not matter. YOU are nothing. Less than a speck in the cosmos of existence. Your temporal moment, your second of experience is not even a drop in the ocean of human existence. Community matters. People matter. Lives matter. YOU the person do not matter. How YOU feel does not matter. Nobody cares what YOU like. The text matters. The anime matters. The consensus matters, but never YOU. What matters is not how YOU relate, but how YOU might affect the world. But that is not YOU, that is the world in reaction to YOU. YOU are meaningful only as a statistic. Your life exists only in the reflection of our wider consciousness, and YOU cannot exist without us. So no, YOU can like as much as you want, but YOU are as irrelevant as the grain of sand on a seashore. |
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| @truisms Even critical analysis don't even matter to a person who don't agree with it. Well, you're talking about the status of a work but I'm talking about every individual different opinions on it so we aren't really in the same page here. Consensus is the only thing that the "status of a work" has going for...That hardly matters for people who don't agree with it. SO, in the end, it's your own opinion that matters... |
CapitalistGod said: @truisms Even critical analysis don't even matter to a person who don't agree with it. Well, you're talking about the status of a work but I'm talking about every individual different opinions on it so we aren't really in the same page here. Consensus is the only thing that the "status of a work" has going for...That hardly matters for people who don't agree with it. SO, in the end, it's your own opinion that matters... the status of great works is challenged and recycles back to itself. i just don't see what point you're making |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
truisms said: CapitalistGod said: @truisms Even critical analysis don't even matter to a person who don't agree with it. Well, you're talking about the status of a work but I'm talking about every individual different opinions on it so we aren't really in the same page here. Consensus is the only thing that the "status of a work" has going for...That hardly matters for people who don't agree with it. SO, in the end, it's your own opinion that matters... the status of great works is challenged and recycles back to itself. i just don't see what point you're making Well, it's not my fault then.... I'm saying that people's own thoughts and experience with a work is the only thing that ultimately matters to them. It's been my point since the start. As I said, we're not on the same page here. |
CapitalistGod said: truisms said: the status of great works is challenged and recycles back to itself. i just don't see what point you're making Well, it's not my fault then.... I'm saying that people's own thoughts and experience with a work is the only thing that ultimately matters to them. It's been my point since the start. As I said, we're not on the same page here. but are there not plenty of people who can dislike a work and respect its reputation in weighing it anyways? ie, not enjoying nge and still respecting it as an important work? i think people weigh their impressions of a show before watching it by what they've heard about it or their implicit perceptions and those color the experience. there's no such thing as a pure "own thought." humans aren't that autonomous. |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
truisms said: CapitalistGod said: Well, it's not my fault then.... I'm saying that people's own thoughts and experience with a work is the only thing that ultimately matters to them. It's been my point since the start. As I said, we're not on the same page here. but are there not plenty of people who can dislike a work and respect its reputation in weighing it anyways? ie, not enjoying nge and still respecting it as an important work? i think people weigh their impressions of a show before watching it by what they've heard about it or their implicit perceptions and those color the experience. there's no such thing as a pure "own thought." humans aren't that autonomous. Yeah, of course.... at the very least, it's still their OWN thoughts and experiences. |
CapitalistGod said: but their own thoughts are colored at every level through the groups they know watch and enjoy the show, the individuals they know that watch and enjoy the show, critical reception, genre, etc. even if you're arguing it's their own thought and experience, how 'you' experience a show is also in large part how others experience a show and your own knowledge of who enjoys a show and how they enjoy it and why. the 'own' is always contaminated by and contains the other as welltruisms said: but are there not plenty of people who can dislike a work and respect its reputation in weighing it anyways? ie, not enjoying nge and still respecting it as an important work? i think people weigh their impressions of a show before watching it by what they've heard about it or their implicit perceptions and those color the experience. there's no such thing as a pure "own thought." humans aren't that autonomous. Yeah, of course.... at the very least, it's still their OWN thoughts and experiences. |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
truisms said: CapitalistGod said: but their own thoughts are colored at every level through the groups they know watch and enjoy the show, the individuals they know that watch and enjoy the show, critical reception, genre, etc. even if you're arguing it's their own thought and experience, how 'you' experience a show is also in large part how others experience a show and your own knowledge of who enjoys a show and how they enjoy it and why. the 'own' is always contaminated by and contains the other as wellYeah, of course.... at the very least, it's still their OWN thoughts and experiences. What's important is a person's volition. It still makes it their own. |
| I think the a masterpiece it's the anime that make you feel difent when you watched it, like sad, happy, furious, ashamed and make you see again, again and again of course the designe is important but that one that makes you feel a child again when you are not , this is amazing. |
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CapitalistGod said: truisms said: but their own thoughts are colored at every level through the groups they know watch and enjoy the show, the individuals they know that watch and enjoy the show, critical reception, genre, etc. even if you're arguing it's their own thought and experience, how 'you' experience a show is also in large part how others experience a show and your own knowledge of who enjoys a show and how they enjoy it and why. the 'own' is always contaminated by and contains the other as well What's important is a person's volition. It still makes it their own. enjoyment isn't a choice made under one's own volition, it's a reaction |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Sure, but the choice to let others affect your viewing experience is a choice. |
no, because it doesn't happen at the conscious level. awareness isn't something you turn on and off. |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
truisms said: no, because it doesn't happen at the conscious level. awareness isn't something you turn on and off. Well, in some cases, you can. But even in those you can't.... it doesn't diminish the fact that it's yours and yours alone. No matter how others affected your viewing experience. It's still you who are doing the viewing and experiencing. |
CapitalistGod said: truisms said: no, because it doesn't happen at the conscious level. awareness isn't something you turn on and off. Well, in some cases, you can. But even in those you can't.... it doesn't diminish the fact that it's yours and yours alone. No matter how others affected your viewing experience. It's still you who are doing the viewing and experiencing. my point is the axis of 'you' is not as important as you say it is, nor is your own experience unrelated to the outside consensus or divergence |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
truisms said: CapitalistGod said: Well, in some cases, you can. But even in those you can't.... it doesn't diminish the fact that it's yours and yours alone. No matter how others affected your viewing experience. It's still you who are doing the viewing and experiencing. my point is the axis of 'you' is not as important as you say it is, nor is your own experience unrelated to the outside consensus or divergence Whatever you say man, You lost me at "'you' is not as important as you say it is". There's no point in exchanging words with a man who can say something like that. , anyways. Bye. |
CapitalistGod said: truisms said: my point is the axis of 'you' is not as important as you say it is, nor is your own experience unrelated to the outside consensus or divergence Whatever you say man, You lost me at "'you' is not as important as you say it is". There's no point in exchanging words with a man who can say something like that. , anyways. Bye. lol what? I mean 'your' opinion is not as singular or directly reflective of your judgment as you say it is. i don't know what you think that says about me |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
Ckan said: CapitalistGod said: Quite simply, that is wrong.If YOU didn't personally enjoy an anime, no matter how great it technically and critically holds up then those things become irrelevant. Well, if you do, then it is. What matters is YOU. YOU do not matter. YOU are nothing. Less than a speck in the cosmos of existence. Your temporal moment, your second of experience is not even a drop in the ocean of human existence. Community matters. People matter. Lives matter. YOU the person do not matter. How YOU feel does not matter. Nobody cares what YOU like. The text matters. The anime matters. The consensus matters, but never YOU. What matters is not how YOU relate, but how YOU might affect the world. But that is not YOU, that is the world in reaction to YOU. YOU are meaningful only as a statistic. Your life exists only in the reflection of our wider consciousness, and YOU cannot exist without us. So no, YOU can like as much as you want, but YOU are as irrelevant as the grain of sand on a seashore. How pitiful. You're nothing more than a sheep who can't think for themselves. You're the type of person who rates their anime based on the weighted score. Putting others above you is an incredibly stupid thing to do. How anyone wants to reduce themselves by blending in with society is beyond me. What other people think doesn't matter to me unless I agree with them. You say nobody cares what YOU like. So why would you care about THEM? And, while we are incredibly small compared to the universe, we have a consciousness. That by default makes us more valuable than a grain of sand or any other type of object that has none. Not a good comparison. |
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CapitalistGod said: Even critical analysis don't even matter to a person who don't agree with it. Well, you're talking about the status of a work but I'm talking about every individual different opinions on it so we aren't really in the same page here. Consensus is the only thing that the "status of a work" has going for...That hardly matters for people who don't agree with it. SO, in the end, it's your own opinion that matters... Your biggest problem in this argument is that you extend your initial point too far. It is all well and good that you should value your own enjoyment of a show above what other people tell you is good, but it is completely different to say that other people's perspectives are "irrelevant" or that they don't matter at all. When I see someone say that they hate a show that I love, or love a show that I hate, I always want to talk to them about it. If the person I'm talking to has a well thought out opinion and presents the reasons for their opinion well, I may enjoy the discussion even if neither person's mind changes. Engaging with other people and their ideas is a great way to learn more about your own tastes and theirs as well. If you truly find no value in this kind of discussion, fine, but the very existence of forums like these proves that people do enjoy these arguments. And if they didn't, it would be a lot more boring to be an anime fan. |
Kurniawan_Ktr said: @TheBrainintheJar Well, if they are the same thing, then they would be implicate each other (1) People will like something if they think that thing is good And (2) people think something is good because they like it But for me personally, it's not usually the case. Shows that I consider as "Good" are technically well made show and gives "supposed" massage and emotional impact to the audience. I can see why people think monogatari series as a good franchise. But I don't like the idea of harem which prevent me to enjoy it. On the other hand, I think Boah is not a "good" show by my criteria, but I liked it because it has many gore scenes. Agree, opinions are subjective, But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try as fair as possible. I also agree that there's no such apparatus that objectively measures anime. "Quality" can't be measure directly after all. But we can make our own instrument, using our own criteria and be as fair as possible without too much invested our preferences, can't we? Though I still think people should rate anime however they want What does it mean to be 'fair' and how is it any different than 'being objective'? What do you mean 'technically'? What does it mean? I know in music it means whether it's difficult to play, and no interesting music critic cares about that. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| @TheBrainintheJar well, in judgement, being fair and being "objective" are not entirely the same thing. Objective is just a lens, while fairness is the judgement itself. So that, Fairness is always to some degree of subjective. Being objective can be means looking from many different point of views, while judgment from those point of views is subjective. What I meant by trying as fair as possible is when we make judgement. I am not sure if I picked the right term when I said "technically well made" (I think I was wrong). I was referring it to "well crafted" show judged by how well all of elements in an anime and how well those elements work together. |
Kurniawan_KtrDec 19, 2016 6:17 AM
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime" "Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system." "Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime" "Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit". "Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism" |
Kurniawan_Ktr said: @TheBrainintheJar well, in judgement, being fair and being "objective" are not entirely the same thing. Objective is just a lens, while fairness is the judgement itself. So that, Fairness is always to some degree of subjective. Being objective can be means looking from many different point of views, while judgment from those point of views is subjective. What I meant by trying as fair as possible is when we make judgement. I am not sure if I picked the right term when I said "technically well made" (I think I was wrong). I was referring it to "well crafted" show judged by how well all of elements in an anime and how well those elements work together. You're dealing with value judgement, which is always subjective and always personal. I'll demonstrate using the Squid of Subjectivity. Are the depths of the oceans a good place to live? It's a value judgment, like 'is this anime good or not'. The problem is, the answers change depend on who you ask. It's bad for us but good for the squid. So is it good or not? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| @TheBrainintheJar Well, to sum up my previous posts, I judges anime from how well it was made ("technically well made"), how well it conveys it's massage, and it's emotional impact on "the audience" (edit : to make it clear, I am referring "the audience" to myself, it's impossible to know the feeling of all people who watch a certain anime anyways). And I judges "how well it made" by "how well all of elements in an anime" and "how well those elements work together". I think I will explain it in more detail by making an example. Yes, "how well it made" might be a value judgment. In the end, it will be "is it a good anime or not". But it's not as simple as that. For example, I will judge K-On. From it's character design. Character design of it can be clasified as "moe" with a middle level of normal body proportion. It's simplistic and using minimalist shading. From the "how well all of element in an anime" judgement. It's "good looking" but nothing is special about it. It seems there's no special technique that the character designer put into it. But, from a different view, this type of character design is good for slice of life to gives refreshing feel which this anime intended to, and so on. . . So on. . . (It's just a brief example from one of element in an anime.) Yes, it's subjective. Judgement is always personal anyways, based on man's experiences. So, it will always be subjective. But it's not as simple as is it good or bad, but also is it fits it's purpose or not. I don't think it's as simple as asking "are the depth of the oceans a good place to lives or not?". I even don't think that question can be compared to "is this a good anime or not". Those words I bolded (if it even a word) make it different. "are the depth of the oceans a good place to lives or not?" can be compared to "is this anime a good anime to [insert anything here] or not ?" instead |
Kurniawan_KtrDec 19, 2016 8:06 PM
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime" "Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system." "Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime" "Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit". "Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism" |
CapitalistGod said: I know that you people here are allergic to Youtube videos and especially from Anime related content creators but Gigguk has just recently made a video that I think what people who are passionate about anime should always be reminded about. I myself think that you can really look at an anime in a purely technical(critical) lens but looking at it with only those is missing the point. Even if you classify several shows as art or as just a product.... YOUR own experience with it is the only thing that matters, in the long run. If you loved so much despite noticing that it doesn't hold up when examined critically.... that shouldn't matter. Dry, technical stuff shouldn't matter in the long run in a medium that can sometimes be art or that can be sometimes just a product for entertainment. Well, enough rambling, thoughts? Well, it appears that this is one time that watching a YouTuber's commentary about anime was actually worth my time. :) I agree with it. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Kurniawan_Ktr said: @TheBrainintheJar Well, to sum up my previous posts, I judges anime from how well it was made ("technically well made"), how well it conveys it's massage, and it's emotional impact on "the audience" (edit : to make it clear, I am referring "the audience" to myself, it's impossible to know the feeling of all people who watch a certain anime anyways). And I judges "how well it made" by "how well all of elements in an anime" and "how well those elements work together". I think I will explain it in more detail by making an example. Yes, "how well it made" might be a value judgment. In the end, it will be "is it a good anime or not". But it's not as simple as that. For example, I will judge K-On. From it's character design. Character design of it can be clasified as "moe" with a middle level of normal body proportion. It's simplistic and using minimalist shading. From the "how well all of element in an anime" judgement. It's "good looking" but nothing is special about it. It seems there's no special technique that the character designer put into it. But, from a different view, this type of character design is good for slice of life to gives refreshing feel which this anime intended to, and so on. . . So on. . . (It's just a brief example from one of element in an anime.) Yes, it's subjective. Judgement is always personal anyways, based on man's experiences. So, it will always be subjective. But it's not as simple as is it good or bad, but also is it fits it's purpose or not. I don't think it's as simple as asking "are the depth of the oceans a good place to lives or not?". I even don't think that question can be compared to "is this a good anime or not". Those words I bolded (if it even a word) make it different. "are the depth of the oceans a good place to lives or not?" can be compared to "is this anime a good anime to [insert anything here] or not ?" instead You just displayed why anime criticism is subjective. Your opinion about K-ON! is your opinion. You did not use an objective apparatus, or some kind of research method that definitely proves your thoughts about K-ON! are a rock-solid fact. And yes, the Squid of Subjectivity fits. Because all anime is made for watching, so I just switched between 'good' and 'good to live in'. I displayed how, in and of itself, the depths aren't good or bad. They exist independently of the squid and humans. It's humans that decide if the depths are good or not based on their experience. What's interesting is why we think what we do, why we find the design in K-ON! brilliant or horrible. We can back it up by argument and theory, critique ourselves and other ideas. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| @TheBrainintheJar Yes, my opinion is always subjective. Judgement is always subjective. Critical analysis is subjective (it contains judgement). I never said my opinion or judgement is objective. Saying facts about a show is not a judgement. As I stated before, objective is just a lens, and not judgement itself. Being objective means looking from many different point of views. At least, that's how I see "objectivity". Btw, my judgement about K-On that I presented here is a "collection" of my judgements in "statement form". I actually make an instrument (on progress) using an approaches that similar to psychometric analysis. It contains some items regarding "my opinions" about technical aspects of an anime, how it conveys it massage, and emotional impact on the audience (me) using one to ten likert scale. Where likert scale is level of agreement/disagreement regarding each item. I don't know if it can be considered as research method or not though. But I know that it can't definitely proves my thoughts about a show are a rock solid facts. Yes, we can make "objective criterion" (fact), but it's not a "fair" game considering anime has variety of genre, purpose, artstyle, and so on. Well, what if I change the statement to be like this. "is Serial Experiments Lain a good anime?" and "is Serial Experiments Lain a good anime to make you laugh?" edit: adding, "is Serial Experiments Lain a good anime to make you think?" They might be a value judgements. But, are the three comparable? Yes, those are interesting. Though I am not really into critiquing things or other ideas, I am more interested in analyzing things instead. That's why I am more interested in rating judgement by detail technical aspects, shows massages and interpretations. Though I also interested in why one think a thing (anime) is good or bad, since people (including me) seems tend to typologize things as good or bad. |
Kurniawan_KtrDec 21, 2016 4:10 AM
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime" "Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system." "Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime" "Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit". "Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism" |
Kurniawan_Ktr said: @TheBrainintheJar Yes, my opinion is always subjective. Judgement is always subjective. Critical analysis is subjective (it contains judgement). I never said my opinion or judgement is objective. Saying facts about a show is not a judgement. As I stated before, objective is just a lens, and not judgement itself. Being objective means looking from many different point of views. At least, that's how I see "objectivity". Btw, my judgement about K-On that I presented here is a "collection" of my judgements in "statement form". I actually make an instrument (on progress) using an approaches that similar to psychometric analysis. It contains some items regarding "my opinions" about technical aspects of an anime, how it conveys it massage, and emotional impact on the audience (me) using one to ten likert scale. Where likert scale is level of agreement/disagreement regarding each item. I don't know if it can be considered as research method or not though. But I know that it can't definitely proves my thoughts about a show are a rock solid facts. Yes, we can make "objective criterion" (fact), but it's not a "fair" game considering anime has variety of genre, purpose, artstyle, and so on. Well, what if I change the statement to be like this. "is Serial Experiments Lain a good anime?" and "is Serial Experiments Lain a good anime to make you laugh?" edit: adding, "is Serial Experiments Lain a good anime to make you think?" They might be a value judgements. But, are the three comparable? Yes, those are interesting. Though I am not really into critiquing things or other ideas, I am more interested in analyzing things instead. That's why I am more interested in rating judgement by detail technical aspects, shows massages and interpretations. Though I also interested in why one think a thing (anime) is good or bad, since people (including me) seems tend to typologize things as good or bad. Looking at a show from many points of view stops it from being a judgment. Instead, it turns the piece of writing into a general summary of opinion. There's a difference between a summary of opinions of other people on the show, and writing your own opinion - with the arguments you think back them up. Someone can argue that SEL is a good anime to make you laugh. Literary criticism is a field with no stable ground. If you're not ready for odd ideas, it's not for you. What you do is exactly what I do. You analyze the anime, its aspects and ideas. By doing this, you gain an understanding of why you liked that anime. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| @TheBrainintheJar why "view a thing from different perspective" stopped it from being my own judgement? I can look at the same thing by moved from my first place where I see it the first time. It's still "what I see" and not others. It's not others who told me their opinions. It's me who moved to different perspective - different place. Maybe I move to different perspective and still see it as the same as it is in the first perspective where I was stand. And maybe it became different. Yes, someone can argue SEL is a good anime for laugh. But asking "is SEL a good anime" is not comparable to asking "is SEL a good anime to make you think" and asking "is SEL a good anime to make you laugh". Specification (based on it purposes) make them different. Yes, I do agree, we basiccally do the same thing. Our approaches seems different though. To be honest, I don't know anything about literary critism. |
Kurniawan_KtrDec 21, 2016 5:10 PM
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime" "Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system." "Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime" "Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit". "Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism" |
Kurniawan_Ktr said: @TheBrainintheJar why "view a thing from different perspective" stopped it from being my own judgement? I can look at the same thing by moved from my first place where I see it the first time. It's still "what I see" and not others. It's not others who told me their opinions. It's me who moved to different perspective - different place. Maybe I move to different perspective and still see it as the same as it is in the first perspective where I was stand. And maybe it became different. Yes, someone can argue SEL is a good anime for laugh. But asking "is SEL a good anime" is not comparable to asking "is SEL a good anime to make you think" and asking "is SEL a good anime to make you laugh". Specification (based on it purposes) make them different. Yes, I do agree, we basiccally do the same thing. Our approaches seems different though. To be honest, I don't know anything about literary critism. If you do a summary of various opinions that you held, then it's somewhere between a 'summary of opinions' and 'value judgment'. I thought you meant something along the lines of, various arguements why SEL is bad and then various arguments why SEL is good. I agree these are different questions because they are different value judgments. NHK is a good anime to understand horrid fiction, but overall it's a shitty anime. You're judging different values by these point and different values demand different arguments. It sounds to me like what you're doing is literary criticism. Maybe you just haven't been doing it enough to realize it. It's not like an I'm expert, either. I'm just a layman who reads a lot of reviews. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Pretty much. I've been saying this for a while but at the end of the day people don't experience 'the show itself' in some kind of platon-esque way. Everyone creates their own, unique experience and their interpretation of that experience and while the show always remains the same, everything else can differ depending on time, place, person, mood, values and a hundred other factors that are not unchangeable. That's why discussions shouldn't be about the show itself for the most part, or at least discussions like that will rarely lead anywhere. Sometimes differences in opinions or misunderstandings will be based on someone missing a crucial part of the show, or not understanding everything, but most of the time the difference is in how people react to the same input. People don't necessarily miss or misunderstand things all the time, but they do get emotional or annoyed by totally different things, find different attributes likable in a character and their values will find different actions and personalities agreeable. The bottomline is that whatever rating you give your anime is much less dependent on the anime itself than most people would like to admit. It's at least 70% based on inner processes completely independent from what you're actually seeing. Even you yourself might have gotten a compeltely different opinion under other circumstances. Maybe if your expectations weren't that high or low your enjoyment would have been very different, maybe if you watched a certain show half a year earlier or later you would have loved it because you were just tired of a particular trope that day you picked it up. Or the other way round. If people were more aware of that instead of always insisting on discussing 'the show' as this kind of unchangeable thing with people just giving their input in hindsight, a lot of misunderstandings and arguments could be avoided. When one person loves a show and another one hates it, it should be clear that it's not the show which is mainly responsible for these feelings. The show doesn't change, if people react differently from others to it and they want to know why they need to look inside themselves and not towards the show. But it's much easier to look at the show and then construct insulting theories from there as to why someone else would love/hate it when you feel the opposite. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: Pretty much. I've been saying this for a while but at the end of the day people don't experience 'the show itself' in some kind of platon-esque way. Everyone creates their own, unique experience and their interpretation of that experience and while the show always remains the same, everything else can differ depending on time, place, person, mood, values and a hundred other factors that are not unchangeable. That's why discussions shouldn't be about the show itself for the most part, or at least discussions like that will rarely lead anywhere. Sometimes differences in opinions or misunderstandings will be based on someone missing a crucial part of the show, or not understanding everything, but most of the time the difference is in how people react to the same input. People don't necessarily miss or misunderstand things all the time, but they do get emotional or annoyed by totally different things, find different attributes likable in a character and their values will find different actions and personalities agreeable. The bottomline is that whatever rating you give your anime is much less dependent on the anime itself than most people would like to admit. It's at least 70% based on inner processes completely independent from what you're actually seeing. Even you yourself might have gotten a compeltely different opinion under other circumstances. Maybe if your expectations weren't that high or low your enjoyment would have been very different, maybe if you watched a certain show half a year earlier or later you would have loved it because you were just tired of a particular trope that day you picked it up. Or the other way round. If people were more aware of that instead of always insisting on discussing 'the show' as this kind of unchangeable thing with people just giving their input in hindsight, a lot of misunderstandings and arguments could be avoided. When one person loves a show and another one hates it, it should be clear that it's not the show which is mainly responsible for these feelings. The show doesn't change, if people react differently from others to it and they want to know why they need to look inside themselves and not towards the show. But it's much easier to look at the show and then construct insulting theories from there as to why someone else would love/hate it when you feel the opposite. How the show isn't responsible, if it is the source of the opinion and the experience? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: Pullman said: Pretty much. I've been saying this for a while but at the end of the day people don't experience 'the show itself' in some kind of platon-esque way. Everyone creates their own, unique experience and their interpretation of that experience and while the show always remains the same, everything else can differ depending on time, place, person, mood, values and a hundred other factors that are not unchangeable. That's why discussions shouldn't be about the show itself for the most part, or at least discussions like that will rarely lead anywhere. Sometimes differences in opinions or misunderstandings will be based on someone missing a crucial part of the show, or not understanding everything, but most of the time the difference is in how people react to the same input. People don't necessarily miss or misunderstand things all the time, but they do get emotional or annoyed by totally different things, find different attributes likable in a character and their values will find different actions and personalities agreeable. The bottomline is that whatever rating you give your anime is much less dependent on the anime itself than most people would like to admit. It's at least 70% based on inner processes completely independent from what you're actually seeing. Even you yourself might have gotten a compeltely different opinion under other circumstances. Maybe if your expectations weren't that high or low your enjoyment would have been very different, maybe if you watched a certain show half a year earlier or later you would have loved it because you were just tired of a particular trope that day you picked it up. Or the other way round. If people were more aware of that instead of always insisting on discussing 'the show' as this kind of unchangeable thing with people just giving their input in hindsight, a lot of misunderstandings and arguments could be avoided. When one person loves a show and another one hates it, it should be clear that it's not the show which is mainly responsible for these feelings. The show doesn't change, if people react differently from others to it and they want to know why they need to look inside themselves and not towards the show. But it's much easier to look at the show and then construct insulting theories from there as to why someone else would love/hate it when you feel the opposite. How the show isn't responsible, if it is the source of the opinion and the experience? Anime is an arbitrary system of images and sound arranged into symbols; their existence as a "show" can only be realised through its exposure and subsequent interpretation by the mind. Therefore, the source of the opinion and experience is the person of reality, not the fiction of the anime. The show cannot be responsible for the reaction. All is borne by the responder: the true show. |
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