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Dec 15, 2016 10:01 AM

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Zelkiiro said:
Jacksworld said:
Popular strong female characters from anime I have seen
Saber- Fate/Zero

Unfortunately, Saber is popular for all the wrong reasons. As horribly-written as Fate/Stay Night is, the entire point of her character was supposed to be that she's above mere humanity and her gender is irrelevant (which also served to make her an unrelatable alien to her contemporaries)...until Nasu decided to make her a love interest in the Fate route like a fucking moron.

So no, people don't like Fate/Zero!Saber because of her badass personality and her complex personal dilemmas--they want a shitty waifu from the shittiest route of an already-of-questionable-quality visual novel.
who wouldnt want to fuck king artur tho
 
Dec 15, 2016 10:05 AM

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romagia said:
Zelkiiro said:

Unfortunately, Saber is popular for all the wrong reasons. As horribly-written as Fate/Stay Night is, the entire point of her character was supposed to be that she's above mere humanity and her gender is irrelevant (which also served to make her an unrelatable alien to her contemporaries)...until Nasu decided to make her a love interest in the Fate route like a fucking moron.

So no, people don't like Fate/Zero!Saber because of her badass personality and her complex personal dilemmas--they want a shitty waifu from the shittiest route of an already-of-questionable-quality visual novel.
who wouldnt want to fuck king artur tho

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Dec 15, 2016 10:18 AM

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i absolutely love strong female characters. if we're disregarding gender demographics, i'd say the lack of demand is simply due to personal preferences. let's admit it, most anime fans love the moe, so the creators will cater to that interest by making those kind of helpless or innocent female characters, the ones that'll make you go "OMG SO KAWAII!!!! XDDDD I WANT TO TAKE CARE OF HER!!!!". plus the idea that men is stronger than women is deeply ingrained in japanese culture, so that's probably one reason too. i'll be waiting for the time when there'll be loads of anime with badass girls that aren't over-sexualized.
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Dec 15, 2016 10:20 AM

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Zelkiiro said:
Jacksworld said:
Popular strong female characters from anime I have seen
Saber- Fate/Zero

Unfortunately, Saber is popular for all the wrong reasons. As horribly-written as Fate/Stay Night is, the entire point of her character was supposed to be that she's above mere humanity and her gender is irrelevant (which also served to make her an unrelatable alien to her contemporaries)...until Nasu decided to make her a love interest in the Fate route like a fucking moron.

So no, people don't like Fate/Zero!Saber because of her badass personality and her complex personal dilemmas--they want a shitty waifu from the shittiest route of an already-of-questionable-quality visual novel.


I'm not talking about her character in Stay/Night. I specifically said Fate/Zero, because her character is treated completely different in that series. In Fate/Zero she is a character with incredible depth and personality flaws who i VERY human. SHe may be a warrior of legend in Fate/Zero but her human side is explored immensely through her conflicts with Kiritsugu and Rider. She is a character who is a badass with the sword, but a human who has the desire to change her past. And when told that maybe that isn't what her people want, she struggles with it greatly. Fate/Zero, although a prequel to Stay/Night, is a completely different tone, and story. The characters have incredible depth and development. So Saber, in the series I listed, is in fact a badass fighter, and a human character.
 
Dec 15, 2016 10:25 AM

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Erg_Orgy said:
YouTube is no real point of comparison but generally I don't think that's really the case anyway.

Who doesn't love a badass chick every now and then, or even just a badass character in general?


I wonder how many mind blown will cause the fact that Michiko to Hatchin and Mine Fujiko to Iu Onna are from the same director of Yuri on Ice.

Based Sayo Yamamoto.
Modified by Johnnyd3rp, Dec 15, 2016 10:46 AM
 
Dec 15, 2016 10:25 AM

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Faederwulf said:
The most important questions are as follows - why does there need to be change to gender roles that stem from biology? Moreover, if gender roles in society are a result of biology (you agree'd that society started off this way), why would we change that? Biology hasn't changed, males are still males and are born with male brains, females are still females and born with female brains. Even if you deny that male and female brains are inherently different (which I can easily disprove with biologically accurate studies), why would society begin with gender roles if we weren't inherently different? Gender roles didn't just come from nowhere, they came from the natural differences in our sexual biology - male preference to object oriented tasks, female preference to people oriented tasks - men are like the Sun, females are like the Moon - both are important.

Your entire reasoning rests on taking coincidences of biology and interpreting them as philosophical and ethical norms. Furthermore you completely neglect inconvenient facts such as the plasticity of human brains and the enormous role of learning. Instead, you just offer up what's the most seemingly convenient explanation, without regard to glaringly obvious mistakes like confusing correlation with causation, or presuming that people are happy merely because fewer anecdotes exist of them being sad.

Let us also observe that humans seek pleasure, as part of their biology, and that various psychoactive substances provide pleasure, and thus that same reasoning leads us to conclude that drugs are good.

Also there's no holy grail that says that society has to stay any particular way, nor that any particular part of society is even a wise idea.
Modified by GlennMagusHarvey, Dec 15, 2016 10:44 AM
 
Dec 15, 2016 10:27 AM

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Jacksworld said:
Zelkiiro said:

Unfortunately, Saber is popular for all the wrong reasons. As horribly-written as Fate/Stay Night is, the entire point of her character was supposed to be that she's above mere humanity and her gender is irrelevant (which also served to make her an unrelatable alien to her contemporaries)...until Nasu decided to make her a love interest in the Fate route like a fucking moron.

So no, people don't like Fate/Zero!Saber because of her badass personality and her complex personal dilemmas--they want a shitty waifu from the shittiest route of an already-of-questionable-quality visual novel.


I'm not talking about her character in Stay/Night. I specifically said Fate/Zero, because her character is treated completely different in that series. In Fate/Zero she is a character with incredible depth and personality flaws who i VERY human. SHe may be a warrior of legend in Fate/Zero but her human side is explored immensely through her conflicts with Kiritsugu and Rider. She is a character who is a badass with the sword, but a human who has the desire to change her past. And when told that maybe that isn't what her people want, she struggles with it greatly. Fate/Zero, although a prequel to Stay/Night, is a completely different tone, and story. The characters have incredible depth and development. So Saber, in the series I listed, is in fact a badass fighter, and a human character.

Oh, trust me, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that her excellent characterization in Fate/Zero sadly has nothing to do with her popularity.

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Dec 15, 2016 10:28 AM

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No, otherwise Nanoha wouldn't have a cult following in the West and often sell decently in Japan.


 
Dec 15, 2016 10:31 AM

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EcchiLordMamster said:
GlennMagusHarvey said:


That said, I agree with you, up to the point where you mentioned ecchi, though, since my personal taste is that I'd rather they not be ecchi'd.


looks like you need some converting then, bruh... i will teach you the beauty of the lewd camera angle


I just finished watching Hundred and I still don't like the giant boobs nor the accidental pervert scenes.

If you took those out of the show then in my opinion the show would benefit.

YMMV obviously, but my opinion ain't changing.

I watch stuff like this to see the girls doing cool things, not to see their boobs doing separately-animated things.

Hoppy said:
No, otherwise Nanoha wouldn't have a cult following in the West and often sell decently in Japan.

Nanoha is super awesome.
 
Dec 15, 2016 10:40 AM

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tragedydesu said:
no, i dont hate them
but i prefer cute ones over strong ones :3
^ This.

I like strong females - as long as they're still clearly female.
e.g. bodybuilder types that look more like a muscle-obsessed man than a lady are totally repulsive.
Females that look jacked up on testosterone are no-good.
A lady must be a lady, and be strong through skill rather than brute force.
 
Dec 15, 2016 10:42 AM
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I'm not saying that you are 100 percent on the mark OP. Far from it, I think the idea is extremely one-sided and ignoring a lot of evidence to the contrary. But I do wonder if there is a bit of simplicity in writing a male main character as opposed to a female one.

With that said, I love some badass women. All but 3 characters in my favorites list are female, and a large majority of them are fighters in some way/shape/form. Even characters that aren't fighters per-se (Senjougahara in anime, Claire Redfield from the Resident Evil games) I like more due to character complexity/depth, but can still hold their own in a chaotic situation.
Modified by InsaneLeader13, Dec 15, 2016 10:52 AM
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Dec 15, 2016 10:44 AM

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I love strong female characters. As long as they are not mary sue status I will most likely like them. I'm more likely to hate a damsel or weak female character then a strong one.

 
Dec 15, 2016 10:44 AM

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Nyaa said:
tragedydesu said:
no, i dont hate them
but i prefer cute ones over strong ones :3
^ This.

I like strong females - as long as they're still clearly female.
e.g. bodybuilder types that look more like a muscle-obsessed man than a lady are totally repulsive.
Females that look jacked up on testosterone are no-good.
A lady must be a lady, and be strong through skill rather than brute force.


I prefer it when both my ladies and my gentlemen are strong through skill rather than brute force.
 
Dec 15, 2016 10:50 AM

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GlennMagusHarvey said:
Nyaa said:
^ This.

I like strong females - as long as they're still clearly female.
e.g. bodybuilder types that look more like a muscle-obsessed man than a lady are totally repulsive.
Females that look jacked up on testosterone are no-good.
A lady must be a lady, and be strong through skill rather than brute force.


I prefer it when both my ladies and my gentlemen are strong through skill rather than brute force.

True.

It's so much cooler when someone who looks totally normal turns out to be insanely strong.
 
Dec 15, 2016 10:55 AM
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GlennMagusHarvey said:
EcchiLordMamster said:


looks like you need some converting then, bruh... i will teach you the beauty of the lewd camera angle


I just finished watching Hundred and I still don't like the giant boobs nor the accidental pervert scenes.

If you took those out of the show then in my opinion the show would benefit.

YMMV obviously, but my opinion ain't changing.

I watch stuff like this to see the girls doing cool things, not to see their boobs doing separately-animated things.

Hoppy said:
No, otherwise Nanoha wouldn't have a cult following in the West and often sell decently in Japan.

Nanoha is super awesome.


i don't know what to say other than more for me lol
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Dec 15, 2016 10:58 AM

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Best example is Kagura, love her!! ♡

 
Dec 15, 2016 12:19 PM

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Zelkiiro said:
Jacksworld said:


I'm not talking about her character in Stay/Night. I specifically said Fate/Zero, because her character is treated completely different in that series. In Fate/Zero she is a character with incredible depth and personality flaws who i VERY human. SHe may be a warrior of legend in Fate/Zero but her human side is explored immensely through her conflicts with Kiritsugu and Rider. She is a character who is a badass with the sword, but a human who has the desire to change her past. And when told that maybe that isn't what her people want, she struggles with it greatly. Fate/Zero, although a prequel to Stay/Night, is a completely different tone, and story. The characters have incredible depth and development. So Saber, in the series I listed, is in fact a badass fighter, and a human character.

Oh, trust me, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that her excellent characterization in Fate/Zero sadly has nothing to do with her popularity.


Fair enough. My point wasn't the popular part as much as the badass female characters though.
 
Dec 15, 2016 12:20 PM

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Zelkiiro said:
Jacksworld said:
Popular strong female characters from anime I have seen
Saber- Fate/Zero

Unfortunately, Saber is popular for all the wrong reasons. As horribly-written as Fate/Stay Night is, the entire point of her character was supposed to be that she's above mere humanity and her gender is irrelevant (which also served to make her an unrelatable alien to her contemporaries)...until Nasu decided to make her a love interest in the Fate route like a fucking moron.

So no, people don't like Fate/Zero!Saber because of her badass personality and her complex personal dilemmas--they want a shitty waifu from the shittiest route of an already-of-questionable-quality visual novel.

1) Saber isn't some angelic being above humanity. She is a human who tries to live according to her ideals, like me, and, possibly, you. Only more successful at that.
This is what makes her awesome and inspiring. Claiming her to be inhuman would diminish her appeal.
Sure, it's funny that Saber behaves like an idealized samurai rather than like a knight, but I guess it's inevitable when the work was written by Japanese.

2) So many butthurt fans because their Saber isn't pure. Saber is an epic hero, and she can have as many romantic relationships as she wants. Leaving behind a trail of abandoned lovers is not her style, but why should she not know love and/or sex?

3) Nasu Kinoko is a great writer. Urobuchi Gen's works are pure literary edginess that has no appeal to me.

4) Yes, it's easy to fall in love with F/SN's Saber. Her idealism, her loyalty, her beauty, her strength, her moments of weakness...
Whatever that youtuber says, being an epic fighter does not take away from a character's attractiveness.
No idea how lovable she is in Fate/Zero.
 
Dec 15, 2016 12:46 PM

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flannan said:
4) Yes, it's easy to fall in love with F/SN's Saber. Her idealism, her loyalty, her beauty, her strength, her moments of weakness...

Hot dang you almost make me want to watch F/SN.
 
Dec 15, 2016 12:54 PM

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flannan said:
Zelkiiro said:

Unfortunately, Saber is popular for all the wrong reasons. As horribly-written as Fate/Stay Night is, the entire point of her character was supposed to be that she's above mere humanity and her gender is irrelevant (which also served to make her an unrelatable alien to her contemporaries)...until Nasu decided to make her a love interest in the Fate route like a fucking moron.

So no, people don't like Fate/Zero!Saber because of her badass personality and her complex personal dilemmas--they want a shitty waifu from the shittiest route of an already-of-questionable-quality visual novel.

1) Saber isn't some angelic being above humanity. She is a human who tries to live according to her ideals, like me, and, possibly, you. Only more successful at that.
This is what makes her awesome and inspiring. Claiming her to be inhuman would diminish her appeal.
Sure, it's funny that Saber behaves like an idealized samurai rather than like a knight, but I guess it's inevitable when the work was written by Japanese.

2) So many butthurt fans because their Saber isn't pure. Saber is an epic hero, and she can have as many romantic relationships as she wants. Leaving behind a trail of abandoned lovers is not her style, but why should she not know love and/or sex?

3) Nasu Kinoko is a great writer. Urobuchi Gen's works are pure literary edginess that has no appeal to me.

4) Yes, it's easy to fall in love with F/SN's Saber. Her idealism, her loyalty, her beauty, her strength, her moments of weakness...
Whatever that youtuber says, being an epic fighter does not take away from a character's attractiveness.
No idea how lovable she is in Fate/Zero.


You can love a character but you can't fall in love with a character.
 
Dec 15, 2016 1:09 PM

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Drunk_Samurai said:
You can love a character but you can't fall in love with a character.

Why do you say it's not possible to fall in love with a character?

The entire "waifu" phenomenon says otherwise.
 
Dec 15, 2016 2:12 PM

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I rather see a strong female character tbh.........why hate them tho?
 
Dec 15, 2016 2:31 PM

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GlennMagusHarvey said:
Technically, "shounen" also refers to the demographic group, and stuff like Azumanga Daioh gets counted as shounen.

What's your point? When the OP refers to "shounen action" shows, we know they are talking about shows like One Piece, Naruto, Dragon Ball Z, etc., and not a slice of life comedy like Azumanga Daioh. All these shows are targeted at young boys, hence the name.
 
Dec 15, 2016 3:36 PM

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Rather clickbaity discussion here guys. And based off a youtube comment no less?


Well to put my own opinion, hell no we don't hate strong female characters. I'd say the majority of my favorite female characters happen to be strong ones. Ones that are confident and can take charge. And to the people who say strong female characters can't also be cute, Morgiana says hi.

This seems like a really dumb discussion no matter how you put it.
 
Dec 15, 2016 3:38 PM

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Oh so everytime people said STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS in this anime-forum context they actually were referring to females that fight well

Eureka
 
Dec 15, 2016 5:09 PM

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Codename_ZQ said:

Well to put my own opinion, hell no we don't hate strong female characters. I'd say the majority of my favorite female characters happen to be strong ones. Ones that are confident and can take charge. And to the people who say strong female characters can't also be cute, Morgiana says hi.

This seems like a really dumb discussion no matter how you put it.


Erk...I'm very not a fan of this kind of "strong" moment...
 
Dec 15, 2016 5:11 PM

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Blame anime studios for never making a proper GUNNM anime adaptation (that OVA was totally not enough), now Hollywood has to make it instead and the results may or may not be horrible. Imo Gally is 'stronk womyn character' done right and I would've loved a proper adaptation of at least the first manga series.
 
Dec 15, 2016 5:16 PM

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Most of my favorite shows have very strong female protagonists. I don't know if it's simply the kind of anime I gravitate to, but they usually have a lot more powerful women than men.

And I don't just mean physically strong, but also mentally. And even characters who might be frail, but are still good role models for women in general.
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Dec 15, 2016 5:52 PM

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Balong said:
Codename_ZQ said:

Well to put my own opinion, hell no we don't hate strong female characters. I'd say the majority of my favorite female characters happen to be strong ones. Ones that are confident and can take charge. And to the people who say strong female characters can't also be cute, Morgiana says hi.

This seems like a really dumb discussion no matter how you put it.


Erk...I'm very not a fan of this kind of "strong" moment...
What exactly is it you are referring to?
 
Dec 15, 2016 6:37 PM

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That comment smells of bait so much it's actually nauseous.
thread is based off one god damn youtube comment from a guy who's seen what, 10 anime?

*Sigh....

How can anybody hate balalaika or revy from black lagoon?.
please...
The girls from Black Lagoon make the show as successful as it is.

Also take a look at the fate series or even kill la kill for christ sake.
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Dec 15, 2016 6:43 PM

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Wensbane said:
Most of my favorite shows have very strong female protagonists. I don't know if it's simply the kind of anime I gravitate to, but they usually have a lot more powerful women than men.

And I don't just mean physically strong, but also mentally. And even characters who might be frail, but are still good role models for women in general.

I like your post and now I want some recs from you. :D
 
Dec 15, 2016 6:53 PM

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No I just hate females in general. 3D or 2D
 
Dec 15, 2016 6:54 PM

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I never know how to respond to these threads; one of the big reasons I got into anime was how many more interesting, intelligent/strong female characters there are compared to what I got in Western media. Maybe our definition of strong is a bit different, but I'd consider characters like Tohsaka Rin (Fate/Stay Night: UBW), Senjougahara Hitagi/Hanekwawa Tsubasa (Monogatari Series), Revy (Black Lagoon), Chihaya (Chihayafuru), etc. to all be strong in their own way.

Not all of them are necessarily physically kicking ass, but their willpower, intelligence, and go-get-em personalities are what make them strong characters in my eyes. I think there are quite a few of these female characters in anime.
 
Dec 15, 2016 7:29 PM
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GlennMagusHarvey said:
Faederwulf said:
The most important questions are as follows - why does there need to be change to gender roles that stem from biology? Moreover, if gender roles in society are a result of biology (you agree'd that society started off this way), why would we change that? Biology hasn't changed, males are still males and are born with male brains, females are still females and born with female brains. Even if you deny that male and female brains are inherently different (which I can easily disprove with biologically accurate studies), why would society begin with gender roles if we weren't inherently different? Gender roles didn't just come from nowhere, they came from the natural differences in our sexual biology - male preference to object oriented tasks, female preference to people oriented tasks - men are like the Sun, females are like the Moon - both are important.

Your entire reasoning rests on taking coincidences of biology and interpreting them as philosophical and ethical norms. Furthermore you completely neglect inconvenient facts such as the plasticity of human brains and the enormous role of learning. Instead, you just offer up what's the most seemingly convenient explanation, without regard to glaringly obvious mistakes like confusing correlation with causation, or presuming that people are happy merely because fewer anecdotes exist of them being sad.

Let us also observe that humans seek pleasure, as part of their biology, and that various psychoactive substances provide pleasure, and thus that same reasoning leads us to conclude that drugs are good.

Also there's no holy grail that says that society has to stay any particular way, nor that any particular part of society is even a wise idea.

"Coincidences of biology"? All I'm saying is that the base of good thinking is rooted in nature. You mention philosophical and ethical norms, but these too stem from biology (and also spirituality, but that doesn't seem to be the focus of this conversation). You mention plasticity of human brains and the enormous role of learning, but what are you getting at? Just because something can be corrupted does not mean it should. You claim that I presume people were happier in certain times past merely because fewer anecdotes exist of them being sad, but countless anecdotes add up to form a bigger picture. History has four stages: Strong men create easy times, easy times create weak men, weak men create hard times, hard times create strong men.

Humans seek pleasure as a part of biology to motivate certain biological functions. Drugs provide the pleasure, but will not lead to the goal that pleasure was intended for (exercise, sex, etc.)
 
Dec 15, 2016 7:47 PM

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Fuck no! I absolutely love strong female leads, I practically rant and bitch all the time over these weak ass beta females that make me want to spit on them and quit anime.

Reflection of women in real life japan maybe?


ur opinion = shit
 
Dec 15, 2016 7:58 PM

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GlennMagusHarvey said:
I like your post and now I want some recs from you. :D


If you want to laugh: Non Non Biyori, Sabagebu, Yuru Yuri, Excel Saga, New Game.

If you don't: Ghost in the Shell SAC, Ergo Proxy, Witch Hunter Robin, Fate/Zero, Claymore.

All have super charismatic female characters.
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Dec 15, 2016 8:15 PM
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Got no problem with strong female leads, but most of the animes who has female leads as the "Savior", there are so much fan-service and shit. That is my main problem and I hate that it keeps happening over and over again.

Tip to the animu creators... Make dem hentai series with strong female leads instead of some softporn(no nipples so maybe softer softporn). Yeah... never really liked ecchi series either
 
Dec 15, 2016 8:18 PM
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I like strong female characters, even moreso when they aren't hypersexualized.
 
Dec 15, 2016 8:39 PM

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Wensbane said:
Witch Hunter Robin [...] super charismatic female characters.

Eeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. Witch Hunter Robin was boring as shit, and the characters are chiefly to blame, especially Robin herself. The whole thing was a tragic waste of beautiful (for its time) animation.

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superior reviews! Most Recent: Mirai of the Future!

I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom:

"Isekai peaked in the 90s. The genre has sucked ever since.
There is nothing wrong with liking shounen action anime.
There is no 'Golden Age.' There is always top-shelf anime.
You should be watching Ghost in the Shell SAC 2nd GIG."
 
Dec 15, 2016 8:48 PM

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Drunk_Samurai said:
flannan said:

1) Saber isn't some angelic being above humanity. She is a human who tries to live according to her ideals, like me, and, possibly, you. Only more successful at that.
This is what makes her awesome and inspiring. Claiming her to be inhuman would diminish her appeal.
Sure, it's funny that Saber behaves like an idealized samurai rather than like a knight, but I guess it's inevitable when the work was written by Japanese.

2) So many butthurt fans because their Saber isn't pure. Saber is an epic hero, and she can have as many romantic relationships as she wants. Leaving behind a trail of abandoned lovers is not her style, but why should she not know love and/or sex?

3) Nasu Kinoko is a great writer. Urobuchi Gen's works are pure literary edginess that has no appeal to me.

4) Yes, it's easy to fall in love with F/SN's Saber. Her idealism, her loyalty, her beauty, her strength, her moments of weakness...
Whatever that youtuber says, being an epic fighter does not take away from a character's attractiveness.
No idea how lovable she is in Fate/Zero.


You can love a character but you can't fall in love with a character.

From my limited experience in falling in love, no, falling in love with a character is not much different from falling in love with a person. Except characters are even less likely to love you back (unless you associate yourself with one of the show's characters).

Lordwen said:
Oh so everytime people said STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS in this anime-forum context they actually were referring to females that fight well

Eureka

Actually, "strong female characters" can mean a number of different things. "Good in a fight" is one of the possibilities, and that is the one that is primarily discussed in this thread.
But there are others: "characters with lots of willpower and force of personality that overcome difficulties and make things go their own way" is an important meaning. And sometimes is just means "well-defined and believable characters" (that is, strong as a character, but not as a person). And maybe I'm missing something important.
Note that it is possible for a single character to have all three qualities. In fact, it isn't hard to do or particularly rare.

Faederwulf said:
flannan said:

1) Humans are not a part of nature. At least since we've invented agriculture.
We shape the world around us. My environment is not the savannah where we evolved, it is a building of stone, metal and concrete. When I go outside, it's too cold there (because I'm far to the north of my biological niche), and I wrap myself in many layers of protective technology. It is so bulky that some people suggest we can adapt spacesuits for this role.

2) "Natural" does not mean "best possible". We do not hit our enemies with natural sticks and stones, we attack them with tanks, planes, bombs and guns.

3) Very little of our society is determined by our biology. Most ideas that shape modern society would apply to any sapient creature as we understand sapience. Things like democracy, capitalism, mass-production and anime have no basis in nature. The only thing we still have is family, because we're extreme K-strategists. But modern "nuclear" family is not much like extended families of the past.

4) There is not much reason to assume male and female brains are very different. But if they are - we should use female brain potential to the fullest, and encourage them to bring their unique perspective and insight into science and engineering. Because these fields are fuelled by diversity, not homogeneity.

1) Humans are a part of nature, because anything that lives is natural. You say you're far to the north of your biological niche, but that's only true if you're not a European - Europeans have light skin and are thus suited to environments that are cold/have little sunlight, and our skin can also act as camouflage against snow. Whether you believe in the theory of evolution or not (at the very least, the out-of-Africa theory has been debunked), we are none-the-less a product of nature.

2) Natural is simply a word used to describe living things. Advancing in technology (using tanks, planes, etc.) is a natural desire, as the desire to improve is present in all life (although we are the only living things to create such high technology). Technology is created by humans, who are living things and a part of nature, therefore while technology isn't a part of nature, it doesn't always harm human nature - although some technology such as automatically opening doors simply weaken humans by encouraging us to avoid simple physical tasks.

3) Democracy, capitalism, and mass-production are ways of organising humans and our resources - although misguided, the intended goal of these things is to increase prosperity - to further ourselves as humans within the physical realm - the material realm, which includes biology/nature. Even anime is a reflection of nature, is it not? Most anime depict life, particularly human life, and our functions (talking, eating, movement, etc.)

4) As I say, female brains are geared towards people-oriented tasks. Hence, they should use this ability that most males are lacking in to the best of their ability. Females are typically better than males at reading emotions (this can be used to keep steady relations between groups/individuals, and in raising children who can not yet talk well). Females influence (in a subtle manner) the environment around them - not just in the sense of former duties which are now viewed as antiquated (such as cooking and cleaning), but in the sense of the emotional and subconscious environment also.

Contrary to popular modern belief, the females of the past (for most of history, at least) haven't been miserable in comparison to today. Females, when honest with themselves, are quite happy to do as a man tells them to do, to cook, clean, and look after their children. On the contrary, I know women who follow what society expects them to do, and act like "liberated women" - but what are they liberated from? Happiness? Family? A loving environment? I've seen countless of them, that whore themselves around, excessively drink alcohol and do drugs - and they're continuously pained with sadness. But what does society tell them? "Do what you want with your own body", and "purity is quaint and old-fashioned".

As society grows worse and worse, simpler and stupider, driven only by base desires and selfishness - as it all crumbles, the majority inevitably search for more personal freedom as if it is the solution to their problems - in reality, it is the cause. But don't misunderstand, I support the exploration of individual self and the potential of all individuals. My problem isn't with all personal freedom, just with the freedom to do things that can only cause harm. Of course, I understand that ranting on some anime forum probably won't make a difference, and that it'll all come crumbling down shortly anyway. I can only hope to influence even one person into understanding what steps are necessary to rebuild an ideal civilisation.

1) I am far from my biological niche. Otherwise, I would have had a nice coat of fur of my own to keep me warm, like most animals around these parts do. Or at least I would hibernate when it gets too cold, like snakes and lizards. Or impressive amount of insulating fat, like the dolphins.
Instead, my life depends on technology to keep me warm.
Yes, I believe in evolution. I also use "savannah ape" theory for defining the ecological niche I'm actually meant to have. And I see that my real life is nothing like that.

2) If so, than reshaping society to work better is more natural than your desire to keep it the way it is.

3) Indeed. So is feminism.

4) You know, I am from the West, and so I am an individualist. I do not care about statistics much. It doesn't matter if an average man is stronger than an average women, I still will not bother entering an arm-wrestling contest with a woman weightlifting champion, because I know she's far stronger.
I work in engineering, and every one of my colleagues, male and female, is an unusually intelligent individual, at least 1 out of 1000 level exceptional.
This is why I want society to treat every woman as an individual with her personal strengths and weaknesses.

5) Yes, personal freedom is very necessary. I've seen no end to people who think I'm wrong for watching anime. But I have my personal freedom, and I can make my personal choice.
And I value it, because I, too, am an exceptionally intelligent individual, and I understand what anime is better than most people on Earth.

6) No, ranting about the world being wrong will not help you build an ideal civilization. First, you actually need to think of ways to correct the flaws of democracy and capitalism. And of ways to fill people's lives with meaning without reducing Earth to a handful of people Gilgamesh-style.
 
Dec 15, 2016 8:54 PM

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Faederwulf said:
GlennMagusHarvey said:

Your entire reasoning rests on taking coincidences of biology and interpreting them as philosophical and ethical norms. Furthermore you completely neglect inconvenient facts such as the plasticity of human brains and the enormous role of learning. Instead, you just offer up what's the most seemingly convenient explanation, without regard to glaringly obvious mistakes like confusing correlation with causation, or presuming that people are happy merely because fewer anecdotes exist of them being sad.

Let us also observe that humans seek pleasure, as part of their biology, and that various psychoactive substances provide pleasure, and thus that same reasoning leads us to conclude that drugs are good.

Also there's no holy grail that says that society has to stay any particular way, nor that any particular part of society is even a wise idea.

"Coincidences of biology"? All I'm saying is that the base of good thinking is rooted in nature. You mention philosophical and ethical norms, but these too stem from biology (and also spirituality, but that doesn't seem to be the focus of this conversation). You mention plasticity of human brains and the enormous role of learning, but what are you getting at? Just because something can be corrupted does not mean it should. You claim that I presume people were happier in certain times past merely because fewer anecdotes exist of them being sad, but countless anecdotes add up to form a bigger picture. History has four stages: Strong men create easy times, easy times create weak men, weak men create hard times, hard times create strong men.

Humans seek pleasure as a part of biology to motivate certain biological functions. Drugs provide the pleasure, but will not lead to the goal that pleasure was intended for (exercise, sex, etc.)

So you have your view of how the world should work, and are just finding ways to justify it by jumping through hoops to claim that nature supports your particular choices of norms, cherry-picking anecdotes that support your worldview, and claiming that those things that don't fit your choice of norms are "corrupting".

Well, if you have to insist that you're right, then go ahead and keep on going with it. Meanwhile, those of us who've actually seen how the world works and recognize that men and women are equally capable at almost everything (good and bad) will be doing something more useful with our lives.

(PS: Exercise isn't even a biological norm; it's a modern invention to fix a problem created by other biological functions. No, not all features of biological "nature" are necessarily good. Oops, there goes your entire argument.)
Modified by GlennMagusHarvey, Dec 15, 2016 9:20 PM
 
Dec 15, 2016 8:54 PM

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Wensbane said:
GlennMagusHarvey said:
I like your post and now I want some recs from you. :D


If you want to laugh: Non Non Biyori, Sabagebu, Yuru Yuri, Excel Saga, New Game.

If you don't: Ghost in the Shell SAC, Ergo Proxy, Witch Hunter Robin, Fate/Zero, Claymore.

All have super charismatic female characters.


I think you just bumped up Claymore.

For Fate/Zero are you referring to Saber I presume?
If so, someone unintentionally recced F/SN just earlier this evening. Should I check that out first? Because I know people make a big deal of F/Zero being a Gen Urobuchi series, but it happens that I didn't enjoy Madoka Magica's storyline (specifically its resolution).
 
Dec 15, 2016 9:14 PM

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GlennMagusHarvey said:
Wensbane said:


If you want to laugh: Non Non Biyori, Sabagebu, Yuru Yuri, Excel Saga, New Game.

If you don't: Ghost in the Shell SAC, Ergo Proxy, Witch Hunter Robin, Fate/Zero, Claymore.

All have super charismatic female characters.


I think you just bumped up Claymore.

For Fate/Zero are you referring to Saber I presume?
If so, someone unintentionally recced F/SN just earlier this evening. Should I check that out first? Because I know people make a big deal of F/Zero being a Gen Urobuchi series, but it happens that I didn't enjoy Madoka Magica's storyline (specifically its resolution).


Zero is a Urobuchi work through and through. It's pretty dark.

Stay Night... not as much. It has a lot of good female characters though, not just Saber. I didn't play the VN so if there are deviations from the source material, I don't really care. No sex scenes I guess, lol.

The animation is pretty bad compared to other Fate works, but the soundtrack is superb.
I'm in the minority here but I actually like the F/SN anime, to be honest. I'd give it a try.
1 hour = 10,000 yen.
2 hours = 20,000 yen.
3 hours = 3 loaves of French bread.
4 hours = 4 loaves of French bread.
 
Dec 15, 2016 9:24 PM

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Wensbane said:
GlennMagusHarvey said:


I think you just bumped up Claymore.

For Fate/Zero are you referring to Saber I presume?
If so, someone unintentionally recced F/SN just earlier this evening. Should I check that out first? Because I know people make a big deal of F/Zero being a Gen Urobuchi series, but it happens that I didn't enjoy Madoka Magica's storyline (specifically its resolution).


Zero is a Urobuchi work through and through. It's pretty dark.

Stay Night... not as much. It has a lot of good female characters though, not just Saber. I didn't play the VN so if there are deviations from the source material, I don't really care. No sex scenes I guess, lol.

The animation is pretty bad compared to other Fate works, but the soundtrack is superb.
I'm in the minority here but I actually like the F/SN anime, to be honest. I'd give it a try.

Y'know what's funny? I've known about the Fate/ series for years, but I've never seen it and it never really seemed to appeal to me until now. My usual reason for objecting to it was that it seemed like a pointless magical dick-waving contest. Oh well. I guess I'll give it a try sometime. *puts it on p2w*

I don't care much whether the animation is subpar, while the soundtrack being superb gives it a plus.

Besides I've also been in the minority enough times regarding opinions on shows. (Nice conversation-piece to have, when I have to talk anime, lol.)

On the other hand I did see one ep of Prisma Illya and dropped it promptly. Found it pretty irritating.
Modified by GlennMagusHarvey, Dec 15, 2016 9:27 PM
 
Dec 15, 2016 9:26 PM

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GlennMagusHarvey said:
My usual reason for objecting to it was that it seemed like a pointless magical dick-waving contest.


That's exactly what it felt like to me tbh.

Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is.
 
Dec 15, 2016 9:32 PM

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Lmao legit nitpicking. Both you and original commenter.
I don't know and I don't really care tbh. It never bugs me and had it not been because of this topic I wouldn't realize this is such a 'problem'.
But I can only think that female is indeed born weaker than the male so male protect female, that's the way of life. It's just inherent tradition that female is feminime (even tomboy is feminime too).
But I don't care tbh.

"Wielding one's blade out of duty alone is what it means to be a captain. Wielding one's blade out of hatred is nothing more than petty violence. That is not what we would consider battle."
 
Dec 15, 2016 9:33 PM

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LifeAlpha said:
Lmao legit nitpicking. Both you and original commenter.
I don't know and I don't really care tbh. It never bugs me and had it not been because of this topic I wouldn't realize this is such a 'problem'.
But I can only think that female is indeed born weaker than the male so male protect female, that's the way of life. It's just inherent tradition that female is feminime (even tomboy is feminime too).
But I don't care tbh.

Actually you can barely tell the difference between babies anyway. The differences only come about later in life.
 
Dec 15, 2016 9:46 PM

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I think we need more strong female characters. Honestly, I get bored of male protagonists because, as a male, it's something I understand all too well. I don't care about relatability, I care more about being invested in new, interesting perspectives. However, there's definitely a trend in anime production where males are given those roles. I'm not sure whose fault that is. I don't know if it's the source material/studios interpreting what they think will sell. Or if it really is the fans themselves who put that in demand.

It's only inevitable, though, when we're talking about "fighting" and actions roles, especially in shonen action series. It's just a Japanese way of thinking when Japanese creators put strong male characters on a pedestal to pander to a target audience. Again, I love strong female characters. Off the top of my head, Balsa from Sierei no Moribito, Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai, the Major from Ghost in the Shell... Not to mention the strong female side characters.

Edit: After looking at OP's anime list, I'm not surprised they had this thought. Shonen series are like that. Again, I'm not sure if it's the fans or the creators' fault. But OP would not be worrying about this if they diversified their taste more. After all, the more you watch shows with strong male characters, the more you perpetuate the notion creators have that their target audience wants more of that.
Modified by astroneet, Dec 15, 2016 10:01 PM
 
Dec 15, 2016 10:03 PM

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I'm kinda speaking more for anime when I type this.

You know why it doesn't usually work? Because creators don't know what to do with their strong female characters. They just make a female strong and that's it. Every now and then, they'll throw in a little backstory to make them seem a little less boring, but they're usually just really lackluster. And that's the better part of the strong female characters. The other bit are strong female characters who are often caught in fanservice moments. So what's the point? And then we have the "strong" female characters who almost always seem to end up as a damsel or defeated so a male character can come in and save them (or not/just watch them get beaten or violated).

Creators seriously need to rethink their female characters and what that means to them. I'd love to look at my favorite character list and see more female characters, but most female characters are just handled so poorly that it's hard to find any you like unless you're seriously like, "Wow, this character is me lol".

When you look at the top male characters just here on MAL... who do you see? Lelouch? Quickly off the top of your head, can you think of too many female characters like Lelouch who were handled well? How about for L? You might be able to find one for Luffy, but more often than not, those female characters end up being straight up obnoxious. My point with the first two though is that female characters are often made with the fact that they're a "female" in mind, but this is a limiter. It limits a creator to what a creator thinks a female is like instead what a female can be or often is. That or the female character will turn out just lifeless or bat shit crazy-- or temperamental.

Like female character creation has started to consist of picking a trope and that's it. Genki. Quiet loli. Hyper loli. Tsundere. Yandere. Perverted. Strong Silent. Weak silent. Emotionless except sometimes. Troubled Silent. Yadda yadda yadda. And there are a LOT of tropes and ya know what I'm not even going to say it's bad to pick one (even though I'd avoid it), but you can't just pick one and stop there then expect your character to be good. If you're going to pick one, you need to expand so much that the trope only served as point A in your final result of point Z.

So I don't blame the Youtube commenter for their comment, because beneath it is a whole other point that even they probably didn't consider. They think strong female characters don't work, but the reality is that creators just make bad strong female characters sometimes.

Man, I'm watching Izetta right now and it's like, yeah of course no one is going to take these "strong" female leads seriously if every time there's a chance they're going to be used for fanservice.

All that being said, there are strong female characters who do work really well in anime and I definitely don't want it to seem like there are absolutely no strong female characters-- or good female characters in general.
Modified by Swiggy, Dec 15, 2016 10:11 PM

Enjoy your anime!
 
Dec 15, 2016 10:42 PM

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Swiggy said:
it's hard to find any you like unless you're seriously like, "Wow, this character is me lol".


For all the characters on my faves list, there's something about them that I feel is a reflection of me personally or is a trait I want to have / someone I want to be. So yeah, it's important to find someone that one feels one can really connect to and/or look up to.

(My faves list is also all female, but that's not really related to the point I'm trying to make in this particular post.)
 
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