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Dec 10, 2016 11:15 AM

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I have my own rating criteria written in my blog. But thanks to everyone here there is some interesting posts to read.
 
Dec 10, 2016 11:31 AM

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@Kurniawan_Ktr

Nah, no problem if its hard! I love to train my mind :)

Well, basically it's just impossible to compare a CGDCT anime (for example, Lucky Star) with a "normal" anime (such as Psycho-Pass). They are completely different and they rating depends on many factors they don't share.

But, anyway, I agree with you, its right that in CGDCT anime, the characters have to be believable and consistent about their actions. I also agree they don't need a backstory, because it's not the focus of the show.

So, the answer will be no. You don't have to eliminate all points of characterization because there are some that are very important for every fictional narrative. It's mainly because of characterization that I like anime than most of the american movies since in movies usually the characters are very typical and can't be differentiated from others (also is the fact that I can't "be in love" with real actors, but that's not the topic here). But it's important to remark that, since this kind of anime's objective is not to tell a plot, they're motivations, objectives and frustations don't need to be "deep", or they don't need any at all (although, is much funnier that they have one, it's really funny to see how they effort to accomplish their desires).

What do you refer by "thoughts"? I don't understand if it's the MC thoughts during the story or another thing... (Sorry if I'm just being silly)

P.D.2: Thanks you :)
 
Dec 10, 2016 11:54 AM

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Kurniawan_Ktr said:
@anonypc
Most of CGDCT slice of life comedy are like that. The characters in them are basically the same, and only the hair and accessories that make them different one another.

So, uniqueness that can make them stand outs and background story that can explain their actions and motives. I also consider character that has no rationale behind their actions as poorly written. This is basically why I consider dere-dere types as a poor characterization. Most of the time they are yandere, tsundere or other dere because the author make it so without any detail explanation (look at Taiga and Yuno).

By the way, this is a good chance for me to ask :D. What do you see in comedy anime such as Nichijou? Most of shows like that doesn't have a well written character or realistic. Most of them are dumb that can be "funny". Do you think characterization needn't in comedy?

For me personally, it's 50:50. Because there are shows like Bimbougami ga which is a comedy yet have a well written characters. The characters in it has their background story explained. But considering Bimbougami ga is not a CGDCT show while Nichijou is a CGDCT, they may different even though they have the same main genre.

@SuzuMine-chan
Yeah they do, though It's not as simple as I wrote here xD

Yeah, that's exactly what I am thinking. That's very interesting. Giving them weight based on how important those factors. For me, I don't give it a weight like that. I threat all factors the same because there are anime that only good in some factors, and it would be unfair to gives each factors a weight. But, yeah, it's depends on how people view the medium.

P.D 2: xD ..... sure, if I can find it. To be honest I am not sure if it was dub or japanese VA. But I think it was japanese VA.

Btw, I also want to hear your opinion about elements in comedy anime such as Nichijou? Most of shows like that doesn't have a well written character or realistic. Most of them are dumb that can be "funny". Do you think characterization needn't in comedy?

@TheBrainintheJar
I also see art as a a product of human creativity. I also see the meaning (or massage) behind them is the most important thing. I actually enjoy searching for symbols meaning in any medium, not only in anime, but also in books, song, music, poetry, painting and so on. Searching for it's meaning is like playing a puzzle to me and I won't stop until I got something that could answer my question even if it's artificial. But even if like that, I also see everything (including art) consists of the small parts. And yeah, they are related one another and conveys a massage all together but it's another story. I think, judging how it is and judging how it works are twoo different things.


All of these things are products of human thought just like anime.

I don't understand the difference between 'judging how it is' and 'judging how it works'. Elaborate?
WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things
 
Dec 10, 2016 11:54 AM

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@Klassical
it was very inspiring reading your criteria :)

@SuzuMine-chan
Yeah, I agreed.

yeah, uniqueness is something very important to make the characters interesting. and I think that's where anime mastered and many people watches anime because of that.

Nah you aren't.. I think I chose the wrong word..
What I mean by thoughts is their inner conversations,? sometimes they are talking in their head. aren't they? I am referring "thought" to something like that

P.D.2: No problem :)
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime"
"Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system."
"Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime"
"Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit".
"Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism"
 
Dec 10, 2016 12:06 PM

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I find that trying to judge a show by its every single element is missing the point. Sure, you can judge how the art style looks but how does it look in motion(aka animation)? From there, you can judge it by their animation but how was it presented(aka the screenplay and cinematography)? Then, after that you can ask the question of how it is directed then how does the direction makes sense of the story? Then, story is a whole other beast.... Anyways(we're gonna take a while if I start rambling off about this further but I'm hoping you get the point... haha), my point is that every single element is just a cog in a machine called an anime. It's important to focus how those elements work together to create an experience rather than judging its elements exclusively.

Well, this is just if you want to be really technical about critique. I do still think that personal enjoyment is the most important thing in the long run.

(Anyways, good topic you have here.... I finally have concretized my thoughts on this subject albeit clumsily)
Modified by ethot, Dec 10, 2016 12:11 PM
 
Dec 10, 2016 12:07 PM

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@Kurniawan_Ktr

Ah, so that was! Yes, its very important in this kind of anime to have them. Because it can make a lot of funny moments or even "moe" moments (you now, that girl who looks so cute when thinking about their loved one or their worries).

I'm glad you think like me about this aspect! Uniqueness is a thing anime has normally done well: characters such as Araragi from Monogatari (you know who is?) won't be in an american show; he is so special... (of course, it's just a commentary, it's not to start a topic about American shows now xD)
 
Dec 10, 2016 12:25 PM

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TheBrainintheJar said:


All of these things are products of human thought just like anime.

I don't understand the difference between 'judging how it is' and 'judging how it works'. Elaborate?


"judging how it is" is your opinion about a thing, everything about a thing.
While "judging how it works" is your opinion about how a thing doing it's purposes.

But well, I may misunderstood the term.
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime"
"Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system."
"Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime"
"Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit".
"Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism"
 
Dec 10, 2016 12:56 PM

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@CapitalistGod
hehehe
I am sorry, I don't get what you mean by "trying to judge a show by its every single element is missing the point".

Well, even though judging anime by it's elements, it won't make them completely separated. There's something called "dimensions". Dimension basically is not only the criteria for each factors quality, but intercorrelation between each factors or elements.

I think we usually do it, subconciously. Just look at how the reviewer reviews anime. Most of them, gives a score to animation, music, artwork and so on separately. My way is basically the same, but I try to make it more detail.

Well, I dont try to be critical or something. I am just feeling bad for some shows that I judged pretty subjectively.

@SuzuMine-chan
haha... yeah...
yeah I know who Araragi is, I have watched Bakemonogatari :)
(American shows xD)
Modified by Kurniawan_Ktr, Dec 10, 2016 1:04 PM
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime"
"Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system."
"Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime"
"Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit".
"Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism"
 
Dec 10, 2016 5:49 PM

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"By the way, this is a good chance for me to ask :D. What do you see in comedy anime such as Nichijou? Most of shows like that doesn't have a well written character or realistic. Most of them are dumb that can be "funny". Do you think characterization needn't in comedy?

For me personally, it's 50:50. Because there are shows like Bimbougami ga which is a comedy yet have a well written characters. The characters in it has their background story explained. But considering Bimbougami ga is not a CGDCT show while Nichijou is a CGDCT, they may different even though they have the same main genre."


Hmm that is tough for me to answer, honestly I don't really have a black and white answer for that... I also think it's somewhat in the middle. TBH I don't do well with comedy anime shows, I can barely remember the times where I actually laughed from a scene in anime, like genuinely burst out laughing. It almost never happens to me, I just maybe giggle a little bit or smile when giving it a second thought and that's about it.

There are sometimes well set up gags that don't require characterization in order for it to be funny, but that is far and few especially in anime, at least in my eyes. I think a large part comes from editing, execution, and spontaneity tbh, or via a well written comedy skit of some sort.

Hehe, all in all it's tough. I like nichijou for its quirkiness, it's just different but it has a certain atmosphere presented that is appealing (like running through the hall scene, or the principal fighting the deer scene, or like... when the policeman catches her DJ in her bag, the shrine scene). Its just interesting and fun to watch because it also has amazing animation quality.

So it's either on or off for me, sometimes it doesn't work for me AT all. For example kill la kill, although I love the production and art (reminded me of TTGL and some gainax stuff at times), the quirkiness just didn't get to me and it was boring for me, I even tried re-watching it maybe like a year later when I had free time and was willing to give it another shot but I just couldn't stomach through it. I can't really explain it, maybe it's just the lack of direction or just the over excessive fanservice, I don't really know, but honestly I don't put too much thought into it. It just simply came down to, me rather doing something else than wanting to continue.

Im actually a really happy going guy IRL but comedy in anime, and manga for that matter, doesn't really get me, and that's actually why for the longest time I put off iconic shows that were known to be funny like Slam Dunk and GTO on the backburner in my mind, until eventually too much time passed where I'm pretty much not interested at all despite knowing those shows are super well known to be good quality.
 
Dec 10, 2016 6:31 PM

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@anonypc
hehe
I see I see. I understand how hard judges a humor is, since it's very subjective. I also somehow feel the same for comedy anime, though there are some exceptions that I still enjoyed(like Gintama and bimbougami ga, not all of their jokes funny though). Seems like Japanese has a different sense of humor. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :D
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime"
"Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system."
"Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime"
"Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit".
"Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism"
 
Dec 10, 2016 6:49 PM

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Kurniawan_Ktr said:
@anonypc
hehe
I see I see. I understand how hard judges a humor is, since it's very subjective. I also somehow feel the same for comedy anime, though there are some exceptions that I still enjoyed(like Gintama and bimbougami ga, not all of their jokes funny though). Seems like Japanese has a different sense of humor. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :D


NP, thanks for asking.

That's true, I think ethnicity and culture plays a huge role in the comedy too...and that goes for many other things in life obviously. Like I'm korean american, but I can still understand some of the "asian" humor (not all of it though), even though I'm not japanese, also being exposed to the medium early in my life. But it's very possible (and likely) for that matter that someone who is not accustomed to japanese culture, or even anime/manga culture, is just gonna look at some of the stuff being shown as just bizarre and creepy, and frankly psychotic even. Although I've never felt that way, I kind of don't mind if someone else does, I can get it. Realistically.. a lot of anime is dumb, but thankfully not every anime is bad. Ofc this is just my opinion :).
 
Dec 10, 2016 11:29 PM

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Kurniawan_Ktr said:
TheBrainintheJar said:


All of these things are products of human thought just like anime.

I don't understand the difference between 'judging how it is' and 'judging how it works'. Elaborate?


"judging how it is" is your opinion about a thing, everything about a thing.
While "judging how it works" is your opinion about how a thing doing it's purposes.

But well, I may misunderstood the term.


Sounds to me like they're synonyms. I don't see a reason to judge something other than by what it tries to do and how good it does it.
WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things
 
Dec 10, 2016 11:50 PM

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TheBrainintheJar said:
Kurniawan_Ktr said:


"judging how it is" is your opinion about a thing, everything about a thing.
While "judging how it works" is your opinion about how a thing doing it's purposes.

But well, I may misunderstood the term.


Sounds to me like they're synonyms. I don't see a reason to judge something other than by what it tries to do and how good it does it.


"Judging how it is" is wider
"Judging how it works" is a subset of "judging how it is"
"Everything about a thing" also includes "how a thing doing it purposes", but "how a thing doing it purposes" doesn't mean/equals/includes "everything about a thing"

Well, judge something by what it tries to do and how good it does it is subjective (edit: maybe "relative" is a better term) in my opinion (sorry, not trying to be rude). Maybe for one, the anime doing it's goal perfectly because he/she understand the anime, while the other one may, see the anime as failed because he/she couldn't understand the anime.

I do believe everything has an "absolute value" (including anime quality). But those values are vague and can't be seen or measure directly, and parts of it still relied on people perspective. I see the values of anime are like that. And I try to judge them based on that views of mine.
Modified by Kurniawan_Ktr, Dec 11, 2016 4:03 PM
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime"
"Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system."
"Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime"
"Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit".
"Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism"
 
Dec 10, 2016 11:59 PM

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Not sure because I eventually blew a gasket trying to assign a number to wildly different shows. BTW, that's some great shit you've got in your favs. A Country Doctor? *high fives* ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
Dec 11, 2016 12:08 AM

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Gymkata said:
Not sure because I eventually blew a gasket trying to assign a number to wildly different shows. BTW, that's some great shit you've got in your favs. A Country Doctor? *high fives* ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


I see...
well, *high fives* for fellow Kafka fans xD
edit: oops.. I mean A Country Doctor fans
Modified by Kurniawan_Ktr, Dec 11, 2016 12:12 AM
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime"
"Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system."
"Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime"
"Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit".
"Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism"
 
Dec 11, 2016 2:46 AM

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Posts: 401
Thanks OP for this thread, I have been on fences on how to re-score my list. I can pick up couple of notes from other people here.

Been thinking about asking other people on how they distribute their scoring weight on each criteria when giving final anime score.
I believe different anime genres will need different scoring weight since you cant judge all anime genre equally.

There are too much reviews that give decent score in each criteria, then only give much lower (or higher) final score.

Splitting between objective and subjective is fine, but give the % of the split at least.
(like how would you score a summer blockbuster movie that critics dislike but fans love it and they think it is worth the time & money for it)


Additionally, there is another factor of rewatchability. Like video game & movie, some of it give player to rewatch over and over again to catch couple of minor details you missed. I believe there are some anime are designed like this as well (I dont remember name, but knowledge at the end of series will give you new perspective when rewatching it).



As for myself, I probably might rearrange myscore toward average of 4 so I can differentiate the score (since MAL dont want to use 0.5 system). Although it would make seem like Im an evil guy dragging decent anime score down. I also noticed that recent "above average-ish" anime tend to have score lower than 7 since a lot of more people vote 5 as average compared 7 as average (like Im currently do, it is abit high but if I put all my criteria mentioned in this thread Im pretty sure it easily reach 7)



Currently Im more on B, might be switching to C.
Watching style atm:

1. Mindless Gaming + Anime streaming with dual monitor
2. Focused + Anime binged watching with speed up
3. Couch / Bed Anime watching with large TV
4. Relaxing in virtual cinema with VR.
 
Dec 11, 2016 7:27 AM

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iwansquall said:
Thanks OP for this thread, I have been on fences on how to re-score my list. I can pick up couple of notes from other people here.

Been thinking about asking other people on how they distribute their scoring weight on each criteria when giving final anime score.
I believe different anime genres will need different scoring weight since you cant judge all anime genre equally.

There are too much reviews that give decent score in each criteria, then only give much lower (or higher) final score.


I also realize that. Many people seems distribute their scoring weight on each criteria. I also agree with anime can't be judged equally because they have variety types of genre. The idea for giving a different scoring weight for each criteria for different genre is an interesting idea I would say, and I can see the reason people do that. Some genre more focused in a certain factors anyway. CGDCT-comedy such as Nichijou for example, doesn't focused much on character development, and the characters tend to have an extreme personality. The characters also tend to have a poor background story (if they have), so it's obvious that this type of anime doesn't really focused on so called "well-explained character".

But, for me, instead of such show are weak in a certain critera, I see it more like a different thing. CGDCT-show and Psychological show for example, are contains different things. I would say, they are not the same construct, since dimensions in them are different event though, they still have the same elements and main factors. Since they are different in dimensions, they are different in the criteria, and they need a different instrument.

Splitting between objective and subjective is fine, but give the % of the split at least.
(like how would you score a summer blockbuster movie that critics dislike but fans love it and they think it is worth the time & money for it)

As for myself, I probably might rearrange myscore toward average of 4 so I can differentiate the score (since MAL dont want to use 0.5 system). Although it would make seem like Im an evil guy dragging decent anime score down. I also noticed that recent "above average-ish" anime tend to have score lower than 7 since a lot of more people vote 5 as average compared 7 as average (like Im currently do, it is abit high but if I put all my criteria mentioned in this thread Im pretty sure it easily reach 7)



Currently Im more on B, might be switching to C.


Compare to me, I am more evil I think xD. I actually gives 4 as average score atm. Though I plan to changed my rating system.

In my next rating system instrument ( still waiting for more input ideas), I don't give a weight based on it's criteria (elements) because I will use likert scale. Likert scale basically is an ordinal scale (since it use agreement/disagreement scale), so it can't be counted quantitatively.

But even though like that, I have a plan to split for subjective / objective items into 30:70. In order to convert the likert scale into rating, it can be converted into interval scale using z-score in statistics at first before summed them up, and the advantage of it are it will creates their own criteria for rating and a normal set of data (the graph will be the same as A graph).

But, the weaknesses are, the converted score (score after using z-score in weghtening each choise (1-10 likert scale)) for every item in the instrument and the interval criteria (the final rating which is based on MAL 1-10) will changed everytime there's a new data that will be added.

Additionally, there is another factor of rewatchability. Like video game & movie, some of it give player to rewatch over and over again to catch couple of minor details you missed. I believe there are some anime are designed like this as well (I dont remember name, but knowledge at the end of series will give you new perspective when rewatching it)


Rewatchablity. I honestly never thinking about this one, my bad xD.

I realize some shows gives me a desire to rewatched it. This is surely a good addition. Though, in my opinion this is more like a subjective factor, I don't think that there's an anime that designed to be like this. But, I maybe wrong.

By the way, if only there's an anime that was designed to be rewatched, how can we tell that that anime was designed to be like that?
Modified by Kurniawan_Ktr, Dec 11, 2016 12:29 PM
"People who don't see that anime has changed are either wearing "glasses" or watching only a certain type (and or era) of anime"
"Having a low mean score doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't enjoy anime. Rating system is not a school grading system."
"Elitist is people who think he is superior than others. Not necessarily ones who insulting/critisizing your favorite anime or people who enjoy a certain type of anime"
"Fanboy is people who translating "your favorite anime is shit" into "you are shit".
"Being a fanboy is an indication of elitism"
 
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