| This topic can apply to pretty much any form of entertainment medium, but heck this is an anime site so we'll roll with that. Basically, a neat twist happens that rocks the story to its core and fundamentally changes how events play out from there. There can't be any doubt that a twist like that is an integral point in the story, but does it necessarily make the story good as a whole? For example, the twist in the Soul Society arc in Bleach is considered one of the best in anime, but Bleach's story in general is less than well regarded, albeit the Soul Society arc is universally praised; in part for how its story flowed throughout. It's believed that that arc was so well received Tite Kubo strived to recreate a similar story to follow its success for the rest of the manga, to less than stellar results but still an attempt none the less. If you ask me, a story is made up of multiple elements that cannot function in conjunction without the other. Characters, setting, plot, etc. all make up the core of a story and something like a plot twist is just icing on the cake. But a single good plot twist in my opinion could strongly alleviate the weakness of a bad story to an extent as it should for everyone I believe. Ultimately we are watching anime for entertainment so it'll probably vary from person to person how much a plot twist affects us. But now discuss and tell Protaku your thoughts on this topic. |
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| Not necessarily, there must be a well-founded buildup beforehand. |
| Like all things, there are a number of factors that contribute to something bigger. I think a good plot twist can definitely enhance the story but it doesn't necessarily mean the story is good solely due to the plot twist. |
SomeEdgeLord said: I WILL report you from this forum if this continues. In real life, I am one of the coldest, unsympathetic, people you'll ever know, who's grown up in an even colder household, you really don't want me to break my persona, I know how to make people feel bad. YearnsforAttention said: hm who has 1656 friends on MAL that's right me bye bye YearnsforAttention said: I don't want your approval how many damn times do I need to say it I enjoy irritating you I am gonna do things MY way |
| yes everyone who says otherwise is a tool |
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| I agree. Basically anything with a good plot twist I've rated in the top half of my animelist regardless of how bad the rest of it was. And it was also the determining factor in why I rank certain anime above others at the top. |
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| A good twist would mean there was a good story and build up before it to begin with so yes. |
| As long as said plot twist had been foreshadowed and is competent, then yes, it could correspond to a good story. I say "could" because it depends on how it's handled after the fact. Since you used it as an example, I'll also use it to drive my point home: The Aizen plot twist was masterfully executed, and should indeed be considered as one of the best plot twists in anime (though for manga, Bleach's Zangetsu plot twist in the final arc is superior); however, how the story was conducted in the succeeding saga was poor, and thus the great story that was established, mitigated into mediocrity. |
ziggy_ZOct 24, 2016 1:04 AM
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Nyron said: wow what a jackassStopped reading at "Bleach" Bleach shouldn't be brought up in conversations about good stories And a twist's quality is indicative of the story's quality and not vice-versa The end Mods lock this topic blocked. reported. banned. |
 Freddy Nicholas said: have control, be yourself, god is dead |
| i say Mars of Destruction best twist, best plot, amirite? |
| It's doesn't guarantee at 100% that the story could becomes better, but it can make it a bit more interesting, however. |
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| Not all the time. If a show is horribly bad, then not even a good plot twist can save it. |
| Some shows depend on it. Like "Detective Conan". Others go twist happy. Like "Death Note". A well-timed twist can salvage what would be otherwise a poor Anime. But, to rely upon it entirely is dangerous and ill advised. So, to answer your question, no. |
| Mrs. Landingham, what's next? |
| No but it probably contributes a bit to making it a good story. About soul society's twist I don't think the twist itself is that good but how it was revealed was great. The typical good guy that becomes one of the most badass villains of battle shounens just by dropping his glasses and passing his hand through his hair was jaw-dropping. In a manga/anime with physical transformations this was at Superman's level of genius. |
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| I don't really care about plot twists. They seem to be mainly about audience's reactions, to doing a 'surprise motherfucker'. That's nice and all, but I'm interested in what the story means. Merely twisting the story isn't enough. Does the twist also change the meaning of the story? Shows something new about the themes? |
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| No, not in the least. It can be one of the components, but not by itself. |
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| No. Hence the one is called "plot twist" and the other "story". This is not the Smurfs. |
| *darn, using my right hand is off-limits for a while. Typing with my left hand only is ... eww.* |
| i couldn't careless about plot twist... they are more oftenly abused to be plot convinience if anything to make plot moving instead properly telling what actually happened and give a proper hint and tough to the story... sure it does work however to make intensitifity and i can't reject that, but i am can't bring my self to liking a story just because it has soo much intense.. i am prefer pleasntly surprised than shocked.. so IMHO,... it does however to make story exciting, but it self doesn't mean shit... it's just the tip.. it can be highest tip or lowest tip... |
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| A good story is a good story, and a good plot twist is a good plot twist. The only connection is that an attentive writer can generate both. |
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| Not unless you're very, very easily entertained. |
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zal said: No but it probably contributes a bit to making it a good story. About soul society's twist I don't think the twist itself is that good but how it was revealed was great. The typical good guy that becomes one of the most badass villains of battle shounens just by dropping his glasses and passing his hand through his hair was jaw-dropping. In a manga/anime with physical transformations this was at Superman's level of genius. For once I agree with you, I always got the superman vibes from Aizen. Kubo inspiration for making Aizen must be from superman. BannoBunka_snork said: No. Hence the one is called "plot twist" and the other "story". This is not the Smurfs. What if the story overall was a build up for this huge plot twist? |
keragamming said: What if the story overall was a build up for this huge plot twist? Then "plot twist" would still be just one element of narration/ story. Morevover, if it has nothing else to offer but "plot-twist" then in the very most cases I likely would not call it "good story" in the first place. I am not saying that a plot twist (or also a deceiving-the-audience) can not add to or detract from a story's quality, but I oppose saying they are the same. |
| *darn, using my right hand is off-limits for a while. Typing with my left hand only is ... eww.* |
BannoBunka_snork said: keragamming said: What if the story overall was a build up for this huge plot twist? Then "plot twist" would still be just one element of narration/ story. Morevover, if it has nothing else to offer but "plot-twist" then in the very most cases I likely would not call it "good story" in the first place. I am not saying that a plot twist (or also a deceiving-the-audience) can not add to or detract from a story's quality, but I oppose saying they are the same. I agree totally that plot twist alone wont make a series great, but all I'm saying it can enhance the series and story quality, if this plot twist change how the characters react and act, and completely change the perspective and the overall world in a series. But I think op, is referring to just small plot twist, and not one's that would completely change the series overall in a massive way. |
keragammingOct 24, 2016 8:51 AM
| A good plot twist will not inherently make a good story. There is SO much more to a good story then just a good plot twist. However, the twist can help make a story better overall. If a plot twist shows up, and come to find out there were small, subtle hints leading up to it, then that's great. It meant that the writer(s) had some thought and pre-planning, and were trying to challenge the more aware viewers while still blowing everyone away. If a twist happens early enough in a work, this might not be necessary, but then it is up to debate if its really a twist. |
"I'd take rampant lesbianism over nuclear armageddon or a supervolcano any day." ~nikiforova |
| No, a good story does not need plot twists and not every story works with twists. In few stories a twist could contribute to make it more interesting, especially if it is well written. But a twist could ruin the whole story if it is out of place or turns everything upside-down |
| no but it can be a great + to the story . |
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| No no, keyser soze's story is boring as fuck |
 la critique de l'intention pure |
| Not necessarily. It can however make a story more enjoyable. |
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| No, a good story just needs to be entertaining. Now a great story, that needs a plot twist or some other form of complexity. |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
IronResistance said: Ingr1d said: I agree. Basically anything with a good plot twist I've rated in the top half of my animelist regardless of how bad the rest of it was. And it was also the determining factor in why I rank certain anime above others at the top. That makes no sense. You are saying if a show is shit but it has a good twist somewhere you ignore the bad stuff and rate it highly? Let's be fair, there's always the stupid generic harems in the bottom half. I'm not exactly being ridiculous here. |
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| Plot twists are a part of the story. Imagine having a shitty appetizer, soup, salad, and main course, followed by an amazing dessert. No one's gonna say the rest of the meal was good. Maybe the meal was still worth having because the dessert was delicious. It can salvage the experience, but the rest of it was still awful. |
| How could a having a good twist make a story? A twist itself lasts but a moment. It can be, of course, very effective (Gakkou Gurashi!), but it's not a +5 to defense from criticism. So we should excuse the downsides of all of the content pre-twist, if everything before it was only there to set it up? (Clannad: After Story) What if the show does nothing interesting with it afterwards? |
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IronResistance said: Ingr1d said: Let's be fair, there's always the stupid generic harems in the bottom half. I'm not exactly being ridiculous here. While I agree that the bottom half is full of stupid generic harems I think that the top half should be full of good shows not shows that have a twist. Like a show can have a twist and still be absolute trash. Having a twist isn't a free way to making a good show is what Im trying to say. xD Yeah I see your point, but a plot twist done extremely well will cause me to rate it highly, especially if the plot twist is near the end because then it affects how i perceive the anime at the end. My easiest example would be Mirai Nikki. I rated it a 9. I'm not going to disagree that it was garbage tier for most of the anime. It was a 4 for me before the plot twist happened. I've seen the criticisms on the internet and I agree with their points. But that's just how good I think the plot twist was. |
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Specimen021 said: How could a having a good twist make a story? A twist itself lasts but a moment. It can be, of course, very effective (Gakkou Gurashi!), but it's not a +5 to defense from criticism. So we should excuse the downsides of all of the content pre-twist, if everything before it was only there to set it up? (Clannad: After Story) What if the show does nothing interesting with it afterwards? Wait, do people actually like the "plot twist" in clannad after story? I thought it was terrible! |
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Ingr1d said: Specimen021 said: How could a having a good twist make a story? A twist itself lasts but a moment. It can be, of course, very effective (Gakkou Gurashi!), but it's not a +5 to defense from criticism. So we should excuse the downsides of all of the content pre-twist, if everything before it was only there to set it up? (Clannad: After Story) What if the show does nothing interesting with it afterwards? Wait, do people actually like the "plot twist" in clannad after story? I thought it was terrible! Didn't say they did, just picked a random example. Though, believe it or not, I've had people argue with me over that idiocy. And yes, they liked it solely because it was set up beforehand. People like their continuity, they'll accept a literal turd as an ending, provided there was an artistic shot of some toilet paper in episode 1. |
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| Not necessarily but some shows need to be shaken up after edging close to predictability. But some shows do live off plot twists to keep the audience on their toes. So I really don't think its a true black and white answer. So in the end I feel shows really don't depend on them but a twist can definitely make it better while some have heavy dependence on them in order to create suspense. |
Specimen021 said: How could a having a good twist make a story? A twist itself lasts but a moment. It can be, of course, very effective (Gakkou Gurashi!), but it's not a +5 to defense from criticism. So we should excuse the downsides of all of the content pre-twist, if everything before it was only there to set it up? (Clannad: After Story) What if the show does nothing interesting with it afterwards? Sometimes, a good twist can shed light on all that came before and provide a new context. I'm pretty sure I once saw a movie that did this, but I can't recall. I'd say the ideal twists don't just surprise you, they change the meaning of the story. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: Specimen021 said: How could a having a good twist make a story? A twist itself lasts but a moment. It can be, of course, very effective (Gakkou Gurashi!), but it's not a +5 to defense from criticism. So we should excuse the downsides of all of the content pre-twist, if everything before it was only there to set it up? (Clannad: After Story) What if the show does nothing interesting with it afterwards? Sometimes, a good twist can shed light on all that came before and provide a new context. I'm pretty sure I once saw a movie that did this, but I can't recall. I'd say the ideal twists don't just surprise you, they change the meaning of the story. They can make a story better. They can't make a story good. There is no twist in the world that could un-bore you after a dozen episodes of nothing in particular. Yes, I am over exagerrating slightly, but you get the point, I believe. |
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| I think a plot twist can greatly enhance an anime. It's like a seasoning though, if the base is terrible the seasoning can only do so much. I loved the twist in From The New World. |
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| Not necessarily Just look at Mars of Destruction, It gave an unexpected plot twist, but how did that turn out? |
currently in a state of denial |
| No, but does anyone actually believe that? Where is this even coming from? |
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