AnnoKano said: And why would anyone want to spend the time and resources to become a neurosurgeon when they'll be on equal scale with a bus driver?Ratohnhaketon said: In a nutshell: I'm alive, I'm breathing, give me free stuff. I know you were being facetious, but this comment betrays your ignorance of the subject. I mean, there were some people -like the severely handicapped- who did receive free stuff under communism. But for the overwhelming majority of people, you had to work. |
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Ratohnhaketon said: And why would anyone want to spend the time and resources to become a neurosurgeon when they'll be on equal scale with a bus driver? They offered different scholarships depending on what you studied. The highest paying were those related to developing weapons. They also kept people from studying certain subjects depending on their background, which is pointless if they are all considered equivalent. So I don't think what you are saying was ever actually the case. Secondly, even if those two careers were paid the same I would still have gone for the neurosurgeon job because it offers greater intellectual stimulation than being a bus driver. EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_reform_in_the_Soviet_Union,_1956%E2%80%9362 |
| Losing an Argument online? Simply post a webpage full of links, and refuse to continue until your opponents have read every last one of them! WORKS EVERY TIME! "I was debating with someone who believed in climate change, when he linked me to a graph showing evidence to that effect. So I sent him a 10k word essay on the origins of Conservatism, and escaped with my dignity intact." "THANK YOU VERBOSE WEBPAGES OF QUESTIONABLE RELEVANCE!" |
| @Lord_Sithis Although it was started by people who call themselves communists, it does not mean Cuba is communist.It's not really even socialist. "Soon after Castro came to power, a massive realignment of class forces took place within Cuba. By late 1960, the revolutionary Cuban govern-ment had expropriated 37 percent of the land. Eventually, 80 percent of Cuban land was nationalized, the highest percentage of land to come under state control in any country. Large industries and businesses, oil companies, banks and public services, as well as 61 American-owned sugar mills that accounted for 50 percent of Cuba’s sugar production, were also nationalized. However, the working class did not take command of the land and means of production nor begin to operate them in their own class interests. Rather, a new state apparatus was established that soon exerted its authority and control over every aspect of Cuban economic, political and even social life. In short, state-owned industries and large farms became the new exploiter of Cuban wage labor" http://www.slp.org/pdf/others/is_cuba.pdf "“''Cuba (...) is the first socialist state in America. Cuban revolution initiated the establishment of socialism in Latin America.' (Documents of the Revisionist Party of Cuba, The historical development of Cuban revolution, 1964, translated from version in German language) But as we shall see, these words are mere lies. Cuban bourgeois pseudo-revolution and the Castroist-Guevarist regime it implemented never had anything to do with socialism. Indeed, Cuban revisionism represents one of the most perverse kinds of revisionism because it managed to cultivate a “romanticized” aura around itself that still deceives many workers nowadays. There are many toilers who firmly reject all the other social-fascist states, but when it comes to Castroist Cuba, they tend to accept it due to its allegedly “democratic” and “popular” nature. Moreover, due to its “leftist” demagogy and their regime’s “socialistic” appearance, Cuban revisionists continue to contribute to the discredit of communist movement and ideology. In this article, we will try to unmask the veritable reactionary, pro-capitalist, pro-imperialist and anti-communist character of Cuban revisionis" _______ "But not even the most cunning masquerades could deny the fact that Cuba was totally dependent on American imperialism. In 1895, 95 % (!) of Cuban external trade was in the hands of the American imperialist bourgeoisie. When the 1959 fake “revolution” took place, the giant monopolist bank Corporate Finance owned by Morgan and Rockefeller controlled practically the totality of Cuban productive sector – from sugar (the island’s main production) to mines, energy and tobacco. During the first half of the XX century, Cuba was always one of the main receptors of American capital penetration. These facts alone are sufficient to reveal Cuba’s dependence on American imperialism. " _______ "American control over Cuba was so intense that the island’s economy remained nothing more than a mere appendix of the American imperialist economy – during those years, the sole purpose of Cuban production was to satisfy the needs for maximum profits of the American imperialisms. Nearly all the wealth produced by Cuba was automatically and immediately exported to the USA. Cuba provided American capitalism with raw materials such as sugar and coffee and absorbed the surplus manufactured commodities and capital made in the USA in favour of the American billionaires and against the interests of Cuban toilers – a typical neo-colonial situation. And this is openly admitted even by American and British bourgeois publications: "Having at last established itself as a free republic (1902), Cuba became dependent upon the United States (...).” (New Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 3, Chicago, 1992, edition in English)" ________ "I am not a Communist, nor do I agree with communism.” (Fidel Castro, Meet the Press' Programme, version in English) _______ “(...) Castro was prevailed on to meet the CIA's chief expert on Communism in Latin America, a Central European named Droller: the two talked privately for three hours, and afterwards Droller told Lopez Fresquet: 'Castro is not only not a Communist, he is a strong anti-Communist fighter." (Hugh Thomas, The CubanRevolution, London, 1986, edition in English) http://ciml.250x.com/to/cuban_revisionism_comintern_sh_february_2013.pdf |
But it's not socialism either. A lot of the issues with Cuba are from the US influence. |
ashishkaull said: Communist ruined the history of India and are still doing that >_< Communism is a political ideology disguised as Social phenomena . Communist are hardliner atheists . Their idea of change through violence is a ........... nothing short of being anarchist . Again there are exceptions in every area ^_^ But imperialism is what fucked over India. Most communists I have spoken with are for freedom of religion except extremism. There are religion specific forms too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_socialism Anarchy = Anti-Hierarchy not necisarily lawlessness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_law |
| @ashishkaull I have a feeling the "communists" you speak of aren't even communists whether they think they are or not. India isn't communist or socialist and not a welfare state either (although that is hard to determine as ive not seen a solid definition of welfare state). Do the castes directly relate to economic class? Because unless these castes they speak of are billionares with vast amounts of capital they dont know what they are talking about and that isn't communism. BTW Ghandi was pro socialism and communism although his own pacifist version of it which I assume is more like democratic socialism. |
| @ashishkaull Almost all counties have some welfare but welfare state means more programs than just that usually I would think. The class system is also closed actually for most people most rich people and poor people were raised into it and only moved up a rung in their life. |
| Communism sounds good on paper, but it doesn't have a good track record in practice. |
| @ashishkaull Im not sure if immigration is part of the policy. LIke I said welfare state isnt perfectly defined. Class is technically an open system but if you actually look at statistics relating to class movement you would see how little it moves for most people. Rags to riches is a rare fluke that happens and increasingly becomes more difficult over time. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555697/UK-one-of-worst-countries-for-social-mobility.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/born-poor-stay-poor-the-scandal-of-social-immobility-7771336.html http://www.patheos.com/blogs/drishtikone/2013/08/curse-of-caste-system-caste-is-not-the-problem-social-mobility-is/ shotz_ said: best idea for a political system ever, on paper anyway. unfortunately us people seem to be naturally dispositioned to be cunts so i don't see it ever coming to fruition. MUH HUMAN NATURE What you describe is debunked. www.alternet.org/books/one-most-pervasive-and-wrong-conservative-economic-myths-debunked |
Yes human nature, its the main reason all attempts at communism has and will always fail. Maybe you can lie and say you would work a harder more tasking job for the same wage and living conditions as a bin man but 90% of the work force wouldn't. Not to mention the human drive to gain and move up, be it work place or social ladders. Communism kills human drive to move forward. It is a stagnant political and social ideology based on idealized versions of people and reality that do not exist anywhere in the world. With no drive to improve or further a career or lifestyle, working or living conditions you take away the human will to move forward. You don't even need to look at a communist country for that, look at any nation with a good welfare program and you'll see thousands content to stay unemployed to keep receiving good benefits. The only drive to get mass amounts of people into work is the promise of better pay. Hell the reason so many economic migrants are running past safe nations towards Europe is to land in welfare nations to be unemployed and receiving money. Mankind needs incentive, communism works on idealism that most of the work force do not share. This isn't star trek, replicators don't exist and people don't throw away their lives for the greater good of the state. |
SpooksSep 23, 2016 12:07 AM
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| Communism is totalitarian regime with labor armies, concentration camps, almighty secret police and bureucracy.Society is build like pyramid with all power and wealth concentrated in upper flloor. all under it is slaves |
Spooks said: Yes human nature, its the main reason all attempts at communism has and will always fail. Maybe you can lie and say you would work a harder more tasking job for the same wage and living conditions as a bin man but 90% of the work force wouldn't. Not to mention the human drive to gain and move up, be it work place or social ladders. Communism kills human drive to move forward. It is a stagnant political and social ideology based on idealized versions of people and reality that do not exist anywhere in the world. With no drive to improve or further a career or lifestyle, working or living conditions you take away the human will to move forward. You don't even need to look at a communist country for that, look at any nation with a good welfare program and you'll see thousands content to stay unemployed to keep receiving good benefits. The only drive to get mass amounts of people into work is the promise of better pay. Hell the reason so many economic migrants are running past safe nations towards Europe is to land in welfare nations to be unemployed and receiving money. Mankind needs incentive, communism works on idealism that most of the work force do not share. This isn't star trek, replicators don't exist and people don't throw away their lives for the greater good of the state. If anything you said were true society never would have formed in the first place. The times before capitalism were basically proto-communism. What do you even think is Communism? How do you try to define it? I want to see what you say. |
| What do I think of communism? If actually implemented, it could be a great social system. But the very concept is dead on arrival because of the varied nature of humans, and how humans embrace that individuality. In any system, there are inevitably going to be a percentage of the population, no matter how small, who will either actively try to destabilize a system, or attempt to manipulate the system to further personal goals. Regardless of how idealistic said system is, flaws will be found, and will be exploited. In addition, a system needs to be able to effectively adapt and change with social and technological changes. If not, the system will quickly fall apart. |
"I'd take rampant lesbianism over nuclear armageddon or a supervolcano any day." ~nikiforova |
| my mum lived under communism and one of the few things she liked was how the government made it easy for people to get jobs. however, there was corruption and also during the Chernobyl disaster, people were forced to go outside to celebrate the communist regime. Communism is too extreme an ideology imo to realistically work, socialism is more likely to work |
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| Sounds good on paper In reality, it's a doomed system which belongs in the garbage bin and nowhere else |
 Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
Sukebe14 said: Communism is totalitarian regime with labor armies, concentration camps, almighty secret police and bureucracy.Society is build like pyramid with all power and wealth concentrated in upper flloor. all under it is slaves Capitalism is totalitarian regime with labor armies, concentration camps, almighty secret police and bureucracy.Society is build like pyramid with all power and wealth concentrated in upper flloor. all under it is slaves. |
shotz_ said: traed said: i think you're misunderstanding where i'm coming from. i genuinely like some collectivist economic ideas (as well as some capitalistic ones). MUH HUMAN NATURE What you describe is debunked. www.alternet.org/books/one-most-pervasive-and-wrong-conservative-economic-myths-debunked i'm only saying historically it's been virtually impossible for communism to be successfully implemented for reasons that have more to do with specific political circumstances than any potential faults of the actual ideology. it seems inevitable that some force from the inside or outside fucks it up. so at the very least in modern political climate it is too unpractical. Yeah I said he same first post in here. WHen it's on the inside it's usually just the leader making i not even socialism bu state-capitalism. When it's on he outside it's capitalist governments trying to stop the economic competition. |
| It's a good concept in theory but certain countries have bent it out of shape |
Click my sig  |
| It's just an ism. No different from any other, even its supposed opposite. It's all about seizing power and eventually corruption and decay, nothing else. Only the marketing is different and the sheep will go "baaah" on their way to slaughterhouse, happily waving their flags and proudly declaring their slogans. |
| Yeah, Yugoslavia wasn't that great. You weren't even able to say you're [insert a religion here] in public. The school system more or less sucks (read: communist professors who want you to be like them). And Tito? He killed like 500,000 of his own people. |
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| Communism is quite simply a failure |
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| What did communists have before fire? |
Take care of yourself |
| I'm a democratic socialist, but I'm against communism because it's an extreme. Communism and fascism are two sides of the same coin in my opinion - however that doesn't mean I think capitalism works that well. What can we do? I dunno. I feel like the only way to move forward is to stop giving the rich a break and start caring about ordinary people, but you don't need an authoritarian, communist system to do that. |
| “Existence is.. well.. what does it matter? I exist on the best terms I can. The past is now part of my future. The present is well out of hand.” -Ian Curtis |
| Wait, by communism you mean I don't have to get a job, right? Yeah, I'm all for it!!! |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
| Like Anarcho-capitalism with its Non-Aggression Principle, Communism is simply too idealistic, as it assumes the best in human nature. Unfortunately for the communists politics is where the absolute worst of human nature comes to manifest. |
| The nation "works too much" and get low rewards. Doesn't worth, sorry. |
| Today they say you're crazy, tomorrow they will say you're a genious. |
nikola1809 said: I started studying socilology this year ( i am 16) and i have been very interested in carl marx. I have been fascinated with north korea lately about how weird their every day life. After much research across the internet i conclude that they are not even communist. I mean communism is all about equality and they have classes there according to people that know about this. Also they have a ruling family so it is more of a Monarchy. So, I turned to Cuba, everyone said that life was great there but much simpler, because of all the restrictions people lived more about the present and less thinking about the future. I mean there is not much poverty there, but almost nobody can live a luxurious life. The best of the bunch seems to be China. They seem to have the least restrictions and now they have access to all modern tech. This got me thinking is communism good or bad? I kinda think that the only communistic country today is Cuba as China is much closer to the west than communism and north korea lives in the dark ages. I am from macedonia which was part of yugoslavia just 25 years ago. I decide to ask my grandma of how was life(i remember her praising tito a lot). She said that life was much better and everything was so cheap. They had everything, but people were always under surveilance, though not that they did not have freedom. So I would like to ask people what do you think about communism? I think that it is a great system, but i would never give up any of my freedom for it. I mean if executed correctly which is hard it works everyone has good enough lives, but that does not seem enough for me. (after all i think that world peace would not be great). P.S. i might have quite a wrong picture of this. So please if anyone has actually lived in communism can you share? I do not think you understand how Communism work, Communism is the final stage of Socialism as put by Marx and Engels you clearly did not read Das Kapital or Utopian Socialism. I suggest you really do if you want to learn anything. Socialism and Communism are egalitarian, under Socialism people are equal under law but it does not mean they get paid the same or treated the same its not how equality works. DPRK (North Korea) is indeed the last Socialist country on earth right now as Cuba has just started to abandon Socialism by introducing private property. To understand why DPRK is Socialist you first need to learn what Socialism is, you can then read Juche by Kim Il Sung its available at Marxist.org. Yugoslavia was not Socialist either as they had private property, Yugoslavia is a variation of Social Democracy called Titoism. Everyone are under surveillance today even more so than the past so its a petty argument to make. One also has to understand the historical conditions of which Socialist countries found themselves in at the time, people in the west were equally if not more under surveillance back then. And Socialism did work, the very reason why most of it collapsed in Europe was because by the 80s most European Socialist countries except Yugo and Albania were basically colonies of USSR which had grown into a Social Imperialist only DDR had a sense of independence from USSR towards the end, in USSR in 1991 the government was couped by Yeltsin and his gang supported by the CIA, this meant that the entire card stack would start collapsing and it did despite opposition. 6 million Russians died during the transition from Socialism to Capitalism in Russia and the country never fully recovered even today hence why majority of Russians want to return to Soviet days. As for rest of Europe well basically there were a lot of dubious coups all over the place, a lot of them resemble the coup in Ukraine which we all know by now was indeed fuelled by CIA. China never had a Capitalist phase which is necessary for development of Socialism hence why Lenin enacted the NEP, which was to develop Capitalism as they never had it, this would lay the groundwork for Socialism to develop. In China however they went straight from Feudalism to Socialism, this did not work as their industry was staggering, a theory is that they decided to have a NEP of their own in 1976 and now they are struggling to return to their Socialist path however the leadership of China keeps suggesting a return to Socialism all the time, it might happen or they might stay revisionists forever. Lao's and Vietnam are the same deal, they never had proper Capitalism and went straight from Feudalism to Socialism, that is why they need to have a NEP with Vietnam its more likely that they do indeed have a NEP as the state remains mostly in control of everything important. |
| "Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something." - Plato |
| A failed utopia that never have or will work in reality. Its main flaw being how it disregards peoples innate desires (greed, jealousy, power-hungry, evil). People will never be satisfied with such a system as they always want more, and can therefore never really work considering human nature. |
| "In this world, evil can arise from the best of intentions. And there is good which can come from evil intentions" |
i need more letters for fucks sake website |
an egomaniac and a fool |
| am worried idots liek interior thes forums think is viable system since they is convince ppls today some how any better than in past |
| Life is just as sad, it does not matter |
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SMGJohn said: DPRK (North Korea) is indeed the last Socialist country on earth right now as Cuba has just started to abandon Socialism by introducing private property. To understand why DPRK is Socialist you first need to learn what Socialism is, you can then read Juche by Kim Il Sung its available at Marxist.org. North Korea hasn't been Socialist since after Kim Jong Il was in power. Most of their means of production is state owned and that production is not democratically run even. It's a piss poor implement of socialism that functions the same as capitalism with the state being the authority in the hierarchy instead of private business owners thus the state is the private business. Yugoslavia was not Socialist either as they had private property, Yugoslavia is a variation of Social Democracy called Titoism. Everyone are under surveillance today even more so than the past so its a petty argument to make. One also has to understand the historical conditions of which Socialist countries found themselves in at the time, people in the west were equally if not more under surveillance back then. It was Market Socialism. As long as most production is collective it's good enough. The USSR didnt ban private all together either. In China however they went straight from Feudalism to Socialism, this did not work as their industry was staggering, a theory is that they decided to have a NEP of their own in 1976 and now they are struggling to return to their Socialist path however the leadership of China keeps suggesting a return to Socialism all the time, it might happen or they might stay revisionists forever. Lao's and Vietnam are the same deal, they never had proper Capitalism and went straight from Feudalism to Socialism, that is why they need to have a NEP with Vietnam its more likely that they do indeed have a NEP as the state remains mostly in control of everything important. No, why China fucked up is from Mao being a retard thinking he could have an industrial revolution practically over night. |
| I'm a libertarian socialist, so naturally I'm against communism. It's just too extreme of a system for me. |
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Spooks said: Hell the reason so many economic migrants are running past safe nations towards Europe is to land in welfare nations to be unemployed and receiving money. Not sure how that's relevant to communism in any way. You have a wrong idea of communism. Welfare policies are a tool used by capitalist nations who intentionally fail to provide jobs to all their citizens (to increase the pressure on its lower classes). It's also very convenient to demonize the poorest people (literally those that got fucked up by the system) while the powerful fill their bank accounts. In welfare nations, money goes to the elite and the government distributes the crumbs to the workers. There's no elite or government in an anarchist/post-communist revolution state... Guess who gets the bread? It's funny how you're all equating communism to poverty when theorically it's about getting rid of those who work the least and earn the most. Especially in this day and age where 30yo sharks in business suits sit on their ass and play your life's earnings in a click. (It's also funny how you all seem to think the solution to the troubles the west is facing is to produce even more iphones and freezers designed to break after 3 years and join the millions other iphones and freezers in our junkyards) |
DeathkoJan 21, 2017 6:37 PM
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Clebardman said: (It's also funny how you all seem to think the solution to the troubles the west is facing is to produce even more iphones and freezers designed to break after 3 years and join the millions other iphones and freezers in our junkyards) The solution to the problem is just to look at every communist country and then do the opposite. |
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Spooks said: Clebardman said: (It's also funny how you all seem to think the solution to the troubles the west is facing is to produce even more iphones and freezers designed to break after 3 years and join the millions other iphones and freezers in our junkyards) The solution to the problem is just to look at every communist country and then do the opposite. What communist country? None have existed unless you count anarcho-communists and out of those several have been successful. If you mean socialist country, the ones that did bad all were Leninist or Maoist variants. Also it's not a fair compairison since you cant compair a third world country with a first world one. |
| I've been looking into it a lot and it looks like it terrifies me. It's a social engineering philosophy, and Marx said you need to kill off about 10% of people first, and people who can't adapt to the new system fast enough. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
| Throw those Commies out of choppers. |
| "A man wishing to be unhappy finds many ways to prove his course." - Hundred eyes |
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