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#1
Aug 14, 2016 12:11 PM

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Ok, so I am starting the second season of Fate/Zero and at the same time, I'm reading the visual novel. I have a doubt about the heroic spirits. From what I understood, each master is capable of summoning one servant of one of the seven classes (Archer, Saber, Rider, etc).

My question is, are the heroic spirits in Fate/Zero the same ones as in FSNUBW?

For example, does the Saber in FSNUBW have the memories of the Saber who fought ten year ago in the 4th Holy Grail War? Or is it like a "new version"?

In the case of Archer whose appearance is completely different is he Gilgamesh or is it someone else from the same class?

 
#2
Aug 14, 2016 12:15 PM

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Saber is the same,Gilgamesh is archer from Fate/zero and archer from UBW is another guy.
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#3
Aug 14, 2016 12:24 PM

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Destinesia said:

My question is, are the heroic spirits in Fate/Zero the same ones as in FSNUBW?

For example, does the Saber in FSNUBW have the memories of the Saber who fought ten year ago in the 4th Holy Grail War? Or is it like a "new version"?



Yes same and she remembers what happened.
 
#4
Aug 14, 2016 12:26 PM

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LeWeebJames said:
Saber is the same,Gilgamesh is archer from Fate/zero and archer from UBW is another guy.


And what about Lancer and the others?

Also, why do some of them get summoned again while others not?
 
#5
Aug 14, 2016 12:27 PM

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All different except for Saber and Gilgamesh. White haired Archer is different from Gil.

Also True Assassin and Kirei's assassin might be the same
"I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says.
I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby".
"She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other."
 
#6
Aug 14, 2016 12:30 PM

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Destinesia said:

And what about Lancer and the others?

Also, why do some of them get summoned again while others not?


You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned.
"Zura ja nai, KATSURA DA!" (Katsura Kotaro)
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#7
Aug 14, 2016 12:33 PM

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Kaneki_Haise said:

You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned.


Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer
 
#8
Aug 14, 2016 12:38 PM

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FullyErect said:
All different except for Saber and Gilgamesh. White haired Archer is different from Gil.

Also True Assassin and Kirei's assassin might be the same


True Assassin aka Cursed-Arm Hassan from F/SN is different from the Hundred Faced Hassan of F/Z.

Also Everything is explained in the VN and at the end of Zero.

 
#9
Aug 14, 2016 12:41 PM
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Destinesia said:
Kaneki_Haise said:

You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned.


Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer

No, it isn't clarified; not spoken out/explained with words at least. Saber is basically an anomaly. The Fate series lore is kind of confusing anyway.
 
Aug 14, 2016 12:42 PM

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Read the fate/stay night visual novel and all your questions will be answered.

Anime is good, fucking deal with it.
 
Aug 14, 2016 1:27 PM

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yeah i was confused about the characters in fate/zero too. i looked at them and i was like "why the fuck should i care"???? the only character fate/zero needs is rider lmaooooooo
 
Aug 14, 2016 1:47 PM

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On_the_Lam said:
Destinesia said:


Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer

No, it isn't clarified; not spoken out/explained with words at least. Saber is basically an anomaly. The Fate series lore is kind of confusing anyway.

Well Saber is not an animaly.
In Fate stay night, it was explained why Saber was summoned.
 
Aug 14, 2016 1:58 PM
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Destinesia said:
My question is, are the heroic spirits in Fate/Zero the same ones as in FSNUBW?
Some are and some aren't. An example is Gilgamesh.

Destinesia said:
does the Saber in FSNUBW have the memories of the Saber who fought ten year ago in the 4th Holy Grail War? Or is it like a "new version"?
If I answer this question then it's a spoiler so Imma put a spoiler tag.
 
Aug 14, 2016 2:12 PM

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You can summon a Servant in one of two ways for the Holy Grail War:

1. Summon a specific servant by possessing an artifact from the servant you want to summon during the summoning. Most of the Masters from Fate/Zero do this because they are more knowledgeable about magic.

2. Perform a generic summoning ceremony and the gives you a random servant from the servant classes that have not already been summoned.
"I am Holo the wisewolf, I know that there are things in this world that I do not know, that is what makes me wise."
-Holo (Spice & Wolf)
 
Aug 14, 2016 4:05 PM
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Bourmegar said:
On_the_Lam said:

No, it isn't clarified; not spoken out/explained with words at least. Saber is basically an anomaly. The Fate series lore is kind of confusing anyway.

Well Saber is not an animaly.
In Fate stay night, it was explained why Saber was summoned.

I could have sworn I read somewhere (the official wikia I believe) that she is an anomaly. I honestly don't know.
 
Aug 15, 2016 4:31 AM

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Classes are just classes. There are millions of heroic spirits recorded over the course of history that can fit them and are chosen at random.

So unless you have the catalyst for summoning or there are some reasons for it being possible, you won't see the same spirit in two wars in a row.

Servants generally do NOT remember their previous wars because they are just copies. The Grail ritual reads the data from throne of heroes and the copy is then imprinted upon a prepared mana vessel and is deleted at the end as to not taint the original. The Heroic Spirits themselves can view the info since the throne of heroes is outside space-time so the originals can know everything from start to beginning of universe.The servants summoned on other hand do not.

The summoning itself is random - you can impact the likeability of getting a certain heroic spirit by having a catalyst associated with his/her life and you can influence the class you summon. Otherwise its entirely up to a random chance and your compatibility of personality with various heroic spirits.

All of it is explained in FSN VN, which Zero automatically assumes you have already read.

On_the_Lam said:
Bourmegar said:

Well Saber is not an animaly.
In Fate stay night, it was explained why Saber was summoned.

I could have sworn I read somewhere (the official wikia I believe) that she is an anomaly. I honestly don't know.

She IS an anomaly.

Kruszer said:
Most of the Masters from Fate/Zero do this because they are more knowledgeable about magic.

Factually incorrect.

You don't need to be "knowledgeable" to get a catalyst. You need money and resources to acquire it.
Modified by Ahenshihael, Aug 15, 2016 4:37 AM
 
Aug 15, 2016 5:51 AM
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Fai said:

She IS an anomaly.

Yes, I was certain I read it correctly.
 
Aug 15, 2016 6:02 AM

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On_the_Lam said:
Fai said:

She IS an anomaly.

Yes, I was certain I read it correctly.


Nope. It is explained in fate and UBW routes but both adaptations that exist pretty much cut 99% of relevant explanation. HF has pretty much no explanations. Just plot twists and pay off for various foreshadowing.

Modified by Ahenshihael, Aug 15, 2016 6:11 AM
 
Aug 15, 2016 6:18 AM
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Fai said:
On_the_Lam said:

Yes, I was certain I read it correctly.


Nope. It is explained in fate and UBW routes but both adaptations that exist pretty much cut 99% of relevant explanation. HF has pretty much no explanations. Just plot twists and pay off for various foreshadowing.


Kind of an odd decision cutting all that explanation out, when it's crucial to understanding Saber's obsession with the Holy Grail.
 
Aug 15, 2016 2:11 PM

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Fai said:

Kruszer said:
Most of the Masters from Fate/Zero do this because they are more knowledgeable about magic.

Factually incorrect.

You don't need to be "knowledgeable" to get a catalyst. You need money and resources to acquire it.


You need to be knowledgeable enough to know you need one though, which basically excludes every participating master in F/SN grail war, minus Illiya. Because I'm discounting the ones that
Feel free to count them if you want though.
"I am Holo the wisewolf, I know that there are things in this world that I do not know, that is what makes me wise."
-Holo (Spice & Wolf)
 
Aug 15, 2016 2:21 PM

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Well, that clears up pretty much :) thanks for the answers

Oh and another question which came up into my mind while watching FZ. Once a Heroic spirit dies in the Holy Grail War, does he actually "die" or does he return to his period of time?

Maybe I am getting ahead of the plot, but im asking just in case it isn't explained later
 
Aug 15, 2016 3:52 PM

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Kruszer said:

You need to be knowledgeable enough to know you need one though, which basically excludes every participating master in F/SN grail war, minus Illiya. Because I'm discounting the ones that
Feel free to count them if you want though.

First of all there's no such thing as "anime canon". The canon is the VN. Anything in anime that contradicts the VN is non-canon.


Thus the ratio to catalyst to no catalyst is about teh same as as FZ

On_the_Lam said:

Kind of an odd decision cutting all that explanation out, when it's crucial to understanding Saber's obsession with the Holy Grail.

Modified by Ahenshihael, Aug 15, 2016 3:58 PM
 
Aug 17, 2016 7:16 AM
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Fai said:
On_the_Lam said:

Yes, I was certain I read it correctly.


Nope. It is explained in fate and UBW routes but both adaptations that exist pretty much cut 99% of relevant explanation. HF has pretty much no explanations. Just plot twists and pay off for various foreshadowing.


The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more

Destinesia said:
Well, that clears up pretty much :) thanks for the answers

Oh and another question which came up into my mind while watching FZ. Once a Heroic spirit dies in the Holy Grail War, does he actually "die" or does he return to his period of time?

Maybe I am getting ahead of the plot, but im asking just in case it isn't explained later


A Servant is only a copy of a certain Heroic Spirit. The real Heroic Spirits are being outside time. After their death, the soul of a human that accomplished great deeds is extracted from the cycle of reincarnations and it's put in a "place" outside time called the Throne of Heroes.
So no, Servants can't go back to their time, because they are not taken from their time. After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy).
Saber is a special case, she IS taken from her time and she will always go back to her time.
Modified by YggdrasilTM, Aug 17, 2016 7:30 AM
 
Aug 18, 2016 6:18 AM

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YggdrasilTM said:
After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy).


So, let's say that the memories of the event remain in the original Heroic Spirit but the physical body of the copy vanishes? In that case the original Heroic Spirit remember the events but not like they happened to him but as dreams maybe?
 
Aug 18, 2016 7:00 AM
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Destinesia said:
YggdrasilTM said:
After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy).


So, let's say that the memories of the event remain in the original Heroic Spirit but the physical body of the copy vanishes? In that case the original Heroic Spirit remember the events but not like they happened to him but as dreams maybe?


Even less than dreams. Dreams at least are in first person. For the true Heroic Spirit it's like reading in a book or a newspaper about the actions of someone else.
 
Aug 19, 2016 7:22 AM

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Destinesia said:

Oh and another question which came up into my mind while watching FZ. Once a Heroic spirit dies in the Holy Grail War, does he actually "die" or does he return to his period of time?


Heroic spirits are stored in Throne of Heroes which is a location outside normal space and time, inside the Root of Origin. One version of each hero in the entire multiverse is saved for being first in accomplishing unique deeds on scale to affect the World. As a result the further in human history you go the less likely it is to become a heroic spirit in your lifetime, by the point that around 1900's its pretty much no longer possible and most of post-Age Of Gods heroes are complete weaklings recognized for most eccentric things.

Holy Grail ritual reads the data of said stored heroes and COPIES the information into a vessel made out of mana. When the said copy dies, it is destroyed. However Heroic Spirits DO have access to information of all time so they CAN know what happened in the wars their copies were summoned to, but that's nothing more than information. Its like reading a book about someone else. They did not experience it and their copies would have no idea about it anyway.

YggdrasilTM said:
The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more

UBW explains counter guardian mechanics and the situation Archer is in which is directly important for Saber. Knowing Saber's general wish form FZ like OP does when combined with actual CG explanations in UBW would be enough to understand about Saber, alas that is missing too.

Destinesia said:
YggdrasilTM said:
After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy).


So, let's say that the memories of the event remain in the original Heroic Spirit but the physical body of the copy vanishes? In that case the original Heroic Spirit remember the events but not like they happened to him but as dreams maybe?


Knowing information =/= experiencing it.

Its like reading a history book.
Modified by Ahenshihael, Aug 19, 2016 7:28 AM
 
Aug 19, 2016 8:32 AM
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Fai said:

YggdrasilTM said:
The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more

UBW explains counter guardian mechanics and the situation Archer is in which is directly important for Saber. Knowing Saber's general wish form FZ like OP does when combined with actual CG explanations in UBW would be enough to understand about Saber, alas that is missing too.

How, exactly, knowing Saber general wish and the CG explanation can tell you that she is still alive and bouncing in time? from those information you only deduct that she is dead and she wants to win the holy grail and use it to redo history
 
Aug 19, 2016 8:52 AM

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YggdrasilTM said:
Fai said:


UBW explains counter guardian mechanics and the situation Archer is in which is directly important for Saber. Knowing Saber's general wish form FZ like OP does when combined with actual CG explanations in UBW would be enough to understand about Saber, alas that is missing too.

How, exactly, knowing Saber general wish and the CG explanation can tell you that she is still alive and bouncing in time? from those information you only deduct that she is dead and she wants to win the holy grail and use it to redo history


It would explain that you don't have to be a heroic spirit to be summoned into a war and explain mechanics of how Saber's wish could even possibly send her through time.

Explaining CGs properly is explaining The World properly. Explaining the World properly literally would mean that you would only say the whole "she is still alive" thing and the rest would be there.

Now you need to explain that she made the wish while alive, WHILE explaining The World, how such wishes work, what is Gaia/Alaya stuff, why it is bad for her, how servants even work, etc.

You are also somehow ignoring my mention of DEENFSN removing its explanations too, since one goes with the other. DEENFSN being borked on explanations means you have to explain stuff. UBW being also borked on explanations means you have to Explain EVEN MORE.
 
Aug 19, 2016 10:23 AM
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Fai said:
YggdrasilTM said:

How, exactly, knowing Saber general wish and the CG explanation can tell you that she is still alive and bouncing in time? from those information you only deduct that she is dead and she wants to win the holy grail and use it to redo history


It would explain that you don't have to be a heroic spirit to be summoned into a war and explain mechanics of how Saber's wish could even possibly send her through time.

Explaining CGs properly is explaining The World properly. Explaining the World properly literally would mean that you would only say the whole "she is still alive" thing and the rest would be there.

Now you need to explain that she made the wish while alive, WHILE explaining The World, how such wishes work, what is Gaia/Alaya stuff, why it is bad for her, how servants even work, etc.

It does not make sense. How does the counter guardian explanation tell you that Saber is not dead?
How does the Gaya/Alaya stuff (that is NOT in UBW, in Fate, or even in HF, for the matter) help to explain Saber situation?
I mean, Fate alone explains Saber situation, why are you omplaining about additional details on Counter Guardian in UBW that in any case does not help, not even n some strange convolute way, to understand that she is alive?

You are also somehow ignoring my mention of DEENFSN removing its explanations too, since one goes with the other. DEENFSN being borked on explanations means you have to explain stuff. UBW being also borked on explanations means you have to Explain EVEN MORE.

No, what I said is that UBW stuff
1) it is not needed to explain Saber.
2) it does not even suggest what Saber situation is.
 
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