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| Ooh. They finally animated Yatori's battle. It was awesome (tomato) sauce. |
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| I love this show. Damn Yatori confirmed badass, I knew she was good but she really just took out all those elite guards? Ma girllll~ Also Ikta's speech. Had me fist pumping! Yes I will follow you! I want to live a life of laziness too! SLOTH FTW! geralt said: So wait did Ikta basically say he would have joined the rebels in killing the princess or did I misinterpret that? Well first off, was their aim even to kill her? If they were just gonna kill her why didn't they? I thought they were gonna use her as a hostage to make some demands or something. And no, I don't think Ikta was saying he would join them to hurt her. But he would join their cause to disobey the shitty empire they live in, because obviously change is needed. Plus he did already point out that he's currently living his worse nightmare, despite being the MC I couldn't fault him for organizing a coup d'etat or something |
InugirlzJul 30, 2016 5:35 PM
GD1551 said: Revvie-chan said: Ah, so the poor captain just followed the old general's last order? I thought it was his & his men own initiative to avenge the general they loved. There goes my regard to the general, flushed out. ^^; No, I was sleepy while typing that and clearly made a mess of it. I mean that the General was following orders despite knowing HE would get annihilated. The captain and his men were doing it for their own reasons. After re-reading: nah that was my mistake. I read the sentence wrong on that part. Sorry. Back to the anime: the men's revenge plot were either not simple enough... or not thorough enough, imo. And their pride, of not killing non-combatant such as the princess, was their death. Pretty frustrating watching it for me (especially since I hate that useless princess.) |
| That was a really good episode. 1st half, ok. You could see that torway's bro was rash & incompetent, more than ikta being genius - he was more taking advantage of other side's weakness. The 2nd half though, don't even know how time passed. Especially yatori's whole sequence - that's how you depict violence without going gory & still keeping you glued. Madhouse isn't called "based madhouse" for nothing. I really liked how yatori's shock was handled. Beautiful scene. Ikta was so natural & easy with her - showing how deep their bond is. Princess crying was really natural after that experience & ikta's ill timed joke. The use of red in the scene gives it away that this episode was done by an Ikuhara pal, haha. It was his first time boarding & directing the same episode, I'm impressed & have my eyes on him. |
| Imagine a berserk anime by Yoshiaki kawajiri at Madhouse. Now take a look at Berserk (2016). YOU HAVE MY PERMISSION TO CRY. |
GD1551 said: Revvie-chan said: After re-reading: nah that was my mistake. I read the sentence wrong on that part. Sorry. Back to the anime: the men's revenge plot were either not simple enough... or not thorough enough, imo. And their pride, of not killing non-combatant such as the princess, was their death. Pretty frustrating watching it for me (especially since I hate that useless princess.) My guess is that they wanted to make a spectacle out of the entire thing, so they were trying to take her somewhere more public or to a place where they could broadcast her execution. whoa that's even more "prideful" ._. I guessed their plot would be to force her father, who made the political mistake, to show up and then ambush him and kill him. That should be justice. And these guys seemed to keep their sense of justice as high as they can at all times. Well, doesn't matter. They died anyway lol |
| Damn, that headshot was sooo satisfying. |
| A city's greatness is determined by the speed of its internet connection. |
| Amazing episode and intense, holy shit. Ikta just keeps on being a badass and I'm loving it. Yatori is a badass as well, but man this series just keeps getting better and better. Too bad it's not getting as much attention. |
| damn the second half was epic |
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| Ikta and Yatori are dumb OP, it makes me mad. Shows getting progressively worse just showing us how badass and cool the mcs are with no rhyme or reason. Characters definitely boring me now too, I really can't expect much at this point. At least the show had a somewhat solid start and its not horrible, so I'll keep watching it in hopes it'll get a bit better despite the last 2 episodes being trash. |
| Its only episode 4 and I've just written this down on my 'must buy' list. Ikta is the master tactician, and Yatori is the master close combat fighter (who also has a good grasp of tactics, just not in the same league as Ikta). I loved how they portrayed her fight so spectacularly without resorting to massive blur lines, or leaps 50 feet into the air, or making her resort to some mystical or super power to be able to defeat her enemies. She's just so damned good, a master swordswoman with sabre and main-gauche. Well done, oh well done!! And its so good to see a close relationship between a male and a female adult which isn't sexual. It really works to enhance the demonstrated fact that these two not only know each other so well but have a great respect for the other's abilities. Yatori in battle reaction (mind out of phase, operating almost purely on muscle reaction / muscle memory, and that realistic thousand yard stare) and then Ikta quietly talking Yatori down after that fight was excellently portrayed. |
Top_SergeantJul 31, 2016 7:36 PM
| The sword that takes life gives life |
| Awesome.......Also please don't imply any romance under(or over)tone to this great pair,Yatori and Ikta, coz they are best bud who understands and reel them in control during their outbursts. I'll abstain tomato-sauce for today. |
| @Revvie-chan @GD1551 Look at the last part of the 4H) and 5) below (near the end of the post) and you should have a proper idea of what happened. __________________________ I'm really seeing everything in reactions threads, and lots of peoples improvising themselves as strategy or battle experts throwing their comment in how unbelievable stuff here and there are. Fact are, strangely, not a single of them is able to properly list every single element before deciding, which would lead me to think that they're not that knowledgeable to begin with. I'll do like everyone and give my opinion the various subject then. Going to post that here and there, since it should covere every point made on each place, I think. 1) The tree part of the strategy is pretty much irrelevant to Ikta's victory. a) what's interesting in what happened here is that it's pretty much an application of a strategy that was discussed in class right before, but rather than using the "main part" that most peoples with a low understanding of strategy (IE, the "assault each part of a divided enemy separately), it's using an important part often left aside (rendering your troops faster than the opponent). This is already a proof that the author is grasping what kind of conditions makes the' kakkogekiha' (defeating each "part" separately) strategy possible far more than most author. Oh btw, in ginga eiyuu densetsu, Tanaka uses all the time wrongly real strategies without understandign why they work (so they never work in his story), and the first one used-wrongly- is that kakkogekiha. Anyway, putting aside the badly written strategies of ginga eiyuu densetsu, let's come back to alderamin here. His choice of making a depot, put together with the main character's experience with field work allowing him to reach a destination shown on a map without hesitating of getting lost gave him pretty much enough advantage already to win the battle, reversing the advantage the opponent had. It allowed him -Get his troops rested. This is HUGE and no one mentioned it until now in the thread. His troops rested the whole night and didn't walk the next morning before the battle. Compared to that, his opponent's troops walked for almost half a day with a huge and heavy backpack and will start the battle right away after that. This alone is already almost enough to turn the difference of experience between the enemy troops and his troops to almost nothing. His troops are rested, his enemies are not. -Recon the whole area and learn about it. This is HUGE once again. One huge advantage that the opponent had on him was that he knew (for fighting mock battles here before) the whole area and Ikta did not. For manoeuvring, coming up with tactics that actually works in the actual environment around them, this is priceless. By having more than half a day to scout around, Ikta reduced that advantage to nothing. -Choose the place to fight. Deciding where to fight is again a tremendous advantage. Especially combined with the following : -Having the time to modify the geography around to his advantage (here it was with the tree, but it could have been anything else, really, like creating traps and the like). Honestly by then, the fight isn't even started, we're not entering the details about any mistake from the opponent, not even really taking in account the idea of using that tree right now. Yet, he pretty much reduced the difference between the two sides to zero, maybe even already has the advantage. Deciding the place to fight, having fresher troops, having as much knowledge of the area as his opponent, and being given the time to modify the battlefield to his advantages. How did he got all that? By making a depot and having very good orientation in the wild. And obviously this doesn't stop there. b)Another thing that seems to be ignored in the discussion here is the psychological advantage that Ikta has over Sarihaslag all along. I'm not talking about being smarter or anything. This advantage is here even before they started the mock battle, even before they started to walk toward the battlefield. Simply put, on paper, this mock battle is heavily unbalanced and there is no way the graduated troops lose. Why does this turn into a psychological advantage? Because in this situation, if that mock battle was to end up into a DRAW or an almost draw, then in the eyes of everyone, Ikta would be the victor. Certainly in the eyes of teachers, soldiers, and so on. Because managing to stall the opponent and not lose your troops too much against a superior opponent means that you're winning the war of attrition (oh, it's another concept that the author has already shown to grasp plenty btw). You're able to handle a situation of being in inferiority, and wait for support/reinforcement without losing too much of your troops. This is called a tactical win. There is absolutely no way that Sarihaslag would be oblivious enough to not realize that in case where a stalemate would come to happen. So as the time pass, he would be forced to move to avoid such stalemate. What did Ikta choose as a battlefield? A river. As Sarihaslag said, this is a case where the first to charge in the water lose (not counting the tree trick here). So we're in a situation where the first one to charge lose, but that Ikta has no incentive to charge, and sarihaslag would become forced to move sooner or later. This is once again a huge advantage. Even if he were to decide to go around the river, Ikta will see his troops move, and can react accordingly, waiting until then. He can actually pretty much win by just playing tag here. If sarihaslag tries to separate his troops to catch him, kakkogekiha will be easy due to the speed advantage of fresh troops over tired troops. if he doesn't, then playing tag is easy. If he were to charge across the water, winning is easy for ikta's side as well. Honestly, on that first battle, the tree is simply icing on the cake. Rather than showing his talent for strategy, the tree is here to show his knowledge of the flora and his ability to put it to good use (which is a recurring theme for ikta). His ability for tactic has nothing to do with the tree, they are shown by everything else. c) After the first battle, the second important moment tactically comes to pass. Most inexperienced commanders (as a reminder, they're rookies warrant officers here) would try to capitalize on their first win by pursuing the retreating opponent. This sounds logical, and as a matter of fact, most peoples on this thread, if playing a strategy game, would probably do it without thinking twice. Yet Ikta actually choose to not do it. The consequence of this are huge. -He denies the ability of his opponent to choose where to fight for the second battle (if he pursued, he would have left the initiative to his opponent) -He used the given time to choose AGAIN the next battlefield and scout it. -Once again he allows his troops to rest on the spot after walking -Once again he forces the enemy to make the first move towards him (by choosing a place the opponent cannot simply ignore) -Once again he gained the time to place his troops and alter the surrounding place to his advantage (this time, by finding an appropriate place for a sniper and ambushing the enemy leader that way). Technically, he just did something that provided him exactly the same kind of advantages than his first tactical decision did. The huge advantages he had the first battles are all coming back again. With those two main point, Ikta shows he has a huge grasp of tactics during this mock battle. At no point, ever, the tree was a necessity. Any preparation of the first battlefield with his 120 soldiers under his command for the half a day he had, like creating traps or other things like that, would have played in his favour all the same. His ability to keep all along the advantage he got before the beginning of this battle is where he shined here. This battle was solely won due to this and the advantages he got by arriving first. 2) The soldiers were more than numerous enough to cut a damn tree and arrange the way it's made to get a stable foothold (120 of them, and lots of time) and then have all the soldiers trying multiple times to cross the river to test it before the real deal even with an unstable foothold. Oh btw, cutting trees to arrange the battlefield is indeed part of things a platoon in Alderamin can have to do (especially the light troops -which is the platoon Ikta directly commands), so there is no problem on the tool side. Light troops IIRC have the role of sappers (or close to it) among their roles. They're neither primary ranged (as they cannot use an air rifle) no primary melee either (those are the fire troops). 3) Sarihaslag (torway's brother) is nowhere near stupid, and the victory of the mock battle never depended of having a stupid opponent. Listing all his decisions one after another, he never made a real mistake. He's prideful, ok, and can be at loss when his opponent doesn't move by the book, but he technically is reacting decently to everything. A) his choice of not checking the river is legitimate. As Ikta said, any troops trying to check would have been greeted with the air rifles and would have been unable to carry out that mission on a small number anyway. A bigger number may have managed it, but not without quite a bit of loss. Considering Sarihaslag has knowledge of the battlefield, using his knowledge of the battlefield to avoid losing troops here to check the river is logical. Sarihaslag has absolutely NO WAY to know that Ikta is not a simple rookie but someone who thinks outside of the box. And even if he knew, checking the river would still be a risky move, as his opponent may just be waiting for him to do that to fire on him, without having prepared anything in the river. (or having prepared it elsewhere than right in front of them). B) His choice of sending Yatori's troops alongside the river is legitimate. Seeing that Ikta's troops were leaving his line of sight, he had no choice than sending troops, and the best troops to send here were Yatori's, because the air rifle troops were better left alongside the river. Sure enough Yatori's decision to stop half way and send scout was even better. But even with Yatori's decision, this didn't stop Ikta from taking the advantage, and there was no really better choice available than what Yatori did. So even if Sarihaslag ordered Yatori do that instead, the result wouldn't have changed at all. Not sending troops were not an option. Sending scouts ended badly, as shown by the scouts sent by Yatori who were shot without being able to report back on anything. -Deciding to retread together with Yatori was the right decision -Deciding to ambush his pursuer was an actual good move that would have been a success with a normal opponent. Deciding on the next battlefield and trying to revert the current flow of battle with this? No complaint here. There is no downside to this. If the opponent pursue, you win. If he doesn't, you still don't lose anything. No reason not to do it. -Rushing toward Ikta's troops after learning where they were was an unavoidable decision. While he wasn't able to understand as quickly as Yatori the meaning of Ikta's move, after it was explained, he really didn't had a choice. That's the strength of Ikta's movements and choice. He had the "sente" all along, and never left it slide no matter what his opponent did. All in all, Sarihaslag was a decent platoon commander,e specially for the day and age. That would make a bad general, but as a commander of a few platoons, under a correct general, he wouldn't do badly. He needs someone around him to have his impulsiveness put in check (so a proper aide here), but that's about it. His "stupidity" definitely didn't won the battle for Ikta. 4) The final battle with Yatori is actually completely on the realm of believable. Lets put all the facts together. This part actually has stuff that are hard to catch for anime watchers due to MAdhouse not really providing the info you should have gotten. I'll precise it when I'll list them 4A) Yatori is one of the best (probably top 3?) with a sword in the whole empire. Igsem family. She isn't at the same level of just any veteran warrior like Chamille's guard. This is an important point but not my main point here, just wanted to put this out of the way before starting to list the rest. The whole point here is, listing the whole situation that actually bring what she did to an acceptable level for an exceptional swordswoman. 4B)This isn't a whole squad. -Several members of the squad were shot down by the traitors because they were not part of the traitors. -Two more were shot down by Yatori's squad -Their best man (the commander) was shot by Torway 4C) This isn't Yatori alone against the remain of this squad . The squad has to cope with the fact that Yatori's squad is ambushing them, and that on top of this a new opponent with an air rifle is sniping them from afar. The consequence here are huge. Without that point, a normal reaction to Yatori being in the centre of them would be to scatter and take her out by making sure not everyone is grouped, and that no one is close enough to be killed by a sword right away. This also leaves room for the air rifle to shoot without risking to hit their allies. But if they scatter here while only caring about YAtori, they're sitting ducks for the ambushers and they're all going to die in the following seconds. They need to remain close enough of Yatori to make the other hesitate. However, this means being close enough to be in range of Yatori. In the novel, this scene is almost finished instantly when she grabs her sword. The anime actually makes it longer to get a nice effect; but honestly, they had just no time. They were to close and Yatori too fast. 4D) Most of the men were actually turning their back on Yatori to face the ambushers when she took back her sword. Considering the fact that they were close to her, that was even more of a problem. They were not expecting their leader to be snipped. 4E) An air rifle isn't a modern assault rifle. Get over it, that's not the same spec. At very close range, they would have a really hard time shooting an opponent moving fast enough. 4F) Yatori didn't actually cut through the enemy's armor. I saw that said a few times here and there, that the imperial armour was pretty much cardboard here, so let's get over this at the same time. She didn't cut through it. Necks, joints, and so on. She avoided the armour. 4G) Air rifle soldiers aren't good at close combat. That's just not their job. The roles are pretty partitioned n the imperial army. Add that to the problem of shooting their teammates, the real capacity of an air rifle, and the air rifles soldiers that were part of the squad were pretty much unaccounted for in that battle against Yatori. 4H) The traitor squad was psychologically tired before the beginning of this fight. Not talking about their leaders getting down, yet. This is the thing that wasn't really shown properly in the anime. In the empire, the imperial family is considered to be close to godhood. Not just, said to be. But respected by its inhabitants as such. Matthew in episode 2 mention how it's not allowed to look directly at the emperor's face. And the leader of the rebel squad talk to one of his soldier, saying "if it's too painful to look at her, don't look". What he meant here wasn't just looking. While the third princess isn't the empress indeed, she's an innocent 12 years child so for good peoples like those traitors (that were definitely not bad guys), kidnapping an innocent child was definitely not a nice thing to do to start with. But... It's a princess. Doing violence to a princess. Kidnapping her. This goes against everything they believed during their whole life. The mental strain is terrible. And... Carrying her, while kidnapping her. Unbearable. This is a scene that was removed from the anime, but didn't you think it was strange that it was the leader that was carrying the hostage rather than one of the soldier? Usually, you would think that it's not logical. Well actually, it was the soldiers that were carrying her first. Except that everyone of them was unable to carry her more than a few minutes. Too much to bear. So they passed each other the duty of carrying her, until the commander himself took over. Just by that. The whole squad's morale and will was pretty much broken already. Actually, before losing physically to Yatori, they were already on the verge of losing morally to Chamille herself. That's how ridiculously revered the imperial blood is in the Empire for normal folks like those soldiers. And then add to that the finishing blow. They betrayed, so the only person they can currently rely on to not crumble morally was their commander. Who just got shot in the head. They're tired psychically, facing an ambush, and lost all authority to rely on. This is huge. you cannot ignore that. The riflemen cannot fire toward Chamille and risk to hit her. Oh, btw. Absolutely no way that the ambushers fire at the soldiers as long as chamille is standing there. Because the same applies to them. That's why taking Chamille and crouching to ask her squad to fire isn't an option here. That's why firing on Yatori as long as she's close to Chamille, even if you're ready to hit your comrades, isn't an option either. 5) This should be obvious by now after the last point above but just in case it's not. It was obviously a kidnapping, and not an assassination attempt (despite what the leader said to shock them and get enough leeway to neutralize Yatori). No way they would kill her. They mentioned a carriage nearby, the reason for it was obvious. Oh, and Ikta saying he could have joined them therefore do not mean either that he was ready to kill Chamille. Killing an innocent 12 years old child would be... Unscientific, for him. He was talking about joining them and do things more effective than kidnapping a young princess. 6) A point I really would like to insist after writing all of this. A fiction work isn't supposed to be so perfect in everything that every single expert on any subject cannot find anything to contest about. If the author knows enough of the subject he's talking about to be able to keep the suspension of disbelief active for amateurs on the respective fields talked about, it's more than enough. So, no point in trying to discuss small details and try to find something UNREALISTIC, especially not if this require high knowledge of the precise field. The moment you require such precise knowledge to find out problems, is the moment you should admit that the author has done a fine job and that's it. I have enough knowledge in physics, astronomy, and astrophysics to point out huge flaws in pretty much any science fi works involving space (except those written by modern scientifics using their own speciality in their fictional novels) . Does that make them bad? No. Does that make those author bad? Absolutely not. There is a huge difference between an author that didn't took the time to understand how things work enough to actually fools/satisfy the criteria for the suspension of disbelief of an amateur, and an author that didn't spent 50 years of his life learning everything on every single subject he used before writing. There is a limit in everything, you know. The tree isn't even important for the whole tactic, so discussing if it's realistic is moot. You don't know how much tools the ligh troops carried with them, so discussing if they could cut it is moot. There is more than enough conditions allowing Yatori to take care of the other soldiers, so saying it's unrealistic is a moot point as well. It is believable. At least from an amateur point of view. |
ZefyrisAug 2, 2016 5:06 AM
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| @Zefyris more like not single one of them is too diligent to list them all. We're all amateurs anyway lol And I don't think it's that relevant to mention it completely like what you did. This is an anime forum, after all. Not war tactic lovers forum. But since you've taken the time to do full analysis... wait, let me finish reading that. 1) & 2) All the points you mentioned are crucial to Ikta's victory. But don't forget: in the ends it comes down to the bridges. Solork won't get his surprise element without the bridges he laid before the battle. And without that surprise element, the whole build-up he did would be meaningless, since he wouldn't be able to shift the momentum to his favor. The whole thing you mentioned just proves that Ikta is well-educated in tactic and field work. And I'm very fine with everything, including the bridge suddenly being there. What I'm not fine is that they don't show the moment Solork actually finding the trees. Solork just mentioned about him remembering the map, but he said nothing about him studying the forestation of the area. I said it: in this kind of anime, this kind of approach in story telling, details are the most important. They (the anime makers) ignored that detail. Even if the writer is smart as f, if the director is s***, it will turn s***. (And sometime, it's the reverse lol.) So, for this part, you don't need to say anything to defend the writer, since I am not criticizing him. (and I don't think I've said anything about him.) I'm talking about this as an anime. 3) I won't answer this part since I don't think you even read my post properly. I said it: his mistake is right from the start: taking Yatri away, instead of his "useless" brother that is sure to be easier to control and more trustable to not betray you (since Torway would probably too busy cowering in fear to even listen his friends at the other side.) 4) & 5) Heh I never mentioned anything about the "kidnapping" being unrealistic. I knew everything you said there before even you said it. What I questioned why was it a kidnap attempt, instead of assassination attempt. I believe it has something to do with their pride as a soldier, which is pretty basic case of a soldier. The part where Ikta said he could have joined them isn't talking about making things more effective, btw. It's talking about Ikta's sharing the same opinion as them about this "political mistake." I doubt Ikta actually meant joining them, but more like he is saying that he is on the same team as the dying captain. It's like a last goodbye: "I'll continue your & your general's fight towards this 'justice', so feel free to rest in peace." 6) Actually, I'm on the team that believe a too-realistic work is s***. So please spare me the preach. tch I ended up repeating what I've said in the first post. Heuh... ps.: Btw, sorry Zefyris. That final bolded statement of yours is pretty arrogant, so I think you should refrain using that in real life else one day you'll get hit because of it. |
Revvie-chanAug 1, 2016 10:06 PM
| @GD1551 what they were planning to do is unknown, because they all died before speaking of it. Maybe pressuring the emperor to admit the truth about Rikan's death publicly to get back the princess, for example. If they did that tho, then it's a huge mistake caused by the difference of point of view between regular folks and the emperor. For the regular folks, she's imperial blood, so the object of reverence and almost untouchable. For the emperor tho, she's merely a convenient and if necessary a discard-able political tool because she's probably too far away in the succession line to become the next emperor anyway. Well, them making such mistake is understandable though. Revvie-chan said: @Zefyris more like not single one of them is too diligent to list them all. We're all amateurs anyway lol And I don't think it's that relevant to mention it completely like what you did. This is an anime forum, after all. Not war tactic lovers forum. But since you've taken the time to do full analysis... wait, let me finish reading that. 1) & 2) All the points you mentioned are crucial to Ikta's victory. But don't forget: in the ends it comes down to the bridges. Solork won't get his surprise element without the bridges he laid before the battle. And without that surprise element, the whole build-up he did would be meaningless, since he wouldn't be able to shift the momentum to his favor. The whole thing you mentioned just proves that Ikta is well-educated in tactic and field work. And I'm very fine with everything, including the bridge suddenly being there. What I'm not fine is that they don't show the moment Solork actually finding the trees. Solork just mentioned about him remembering the map, but he said nothing about him studying the forestation of the area. I said it: in this kind of anime, this kind of approach in story telling, details are the most important. They (the anime makers) ignored that detail. Even if the writer is smart as f, if the director is s***, it will turn s***. (And sometime, it's the reverse lol.) So, for this part, you don't need to say anything to defend the writer, since I am not criticizing him. (and I don't think I've said anything about him.) I'm talking about this as an anime. 3) I won't answer this part since I don't think you even read my post properly. I said it: his mistake is right from the start: taking Yatri away, instead of his "useless" brother that is sure to be easier to control and more trustable to not betray you (since Torway would probably too busy cowering in fear to even listen his friends at the other side.) 4) & 5) Heh I never mentioned anything about the "kidnapping" being unrealistic. I knew everything you said there before even you said it. What I questioned why was it a kidnap attempt, instead of assassination attempt. I believe it has something to do with their pride as a soldier, which is pretty basic case of a soldier. The part where Ikta said he could have joined them isn't talking about making things more effective, btw. It's talking about Ikta's sharing the same opinion as them about this "political mistake." I doubt Ikta actually meant joining them, but more like he is saying that he is on the same team as the dying captain. It's like a last goodbye: "I'll continue your & your general's fight towards this 'justice', so feel free to rest in peace." 6) Actually, I'm on the team that believe a too-realistic work is s***. So please spare me the preach. tch I ended up repeating what I've said in the first post. Heuh... ps.: Btw, sorry Zefyris. That final bolded statement of yours is pretty arrogant, so I think you should refrain using that in real life else one day you'll get hit because of it. no, like I said, you're giving too much credits to the tree. This is less a part of tactics than a detail of one battle. Remove the tree from the story, replace it by traps to catch the charging fire troops, and you get the same 120 against 80 required earlier in the first battle. What's important isn't that they used a tree. What's important is that they had the TIME to use the tree and USED that time efficiently. From that point onward, what did they decide to do is mere details. The battle is pretty much already won tactic wise without entering any further details. If you go to Japan for your holidays, what's important is wher eyou go, that you had the money and the time to go, but not which airline company you used. The tree was just one of the numerous possibilities when everything else was already here. Even if that tree wasn't available, Ikta would have won with pretty much no change of plan from start to finish. There is no momentum shifting. From a tactical point of view, the battle was led by Ikta from start to finish, he never let go of the huge amount of advantages he had. Him winning at the end is only logical conclusion, not a shift of momentum. YEah the director for this anime is a newbie, so don't expect that much on that point, he's bound to do awkward mistakes here and there. Just to say tho, the first, second part and third part isn't directed toward you. Like I said, I pointed you towards 4H and 5 because it could interest you. The whole text aim to answer any single criticize on any board I've read (I also posted on animesuki, and lots of the parts 1-2-3 is aimed to animesuki posters, in fact ). I actually didn't address your point because I didn't see that post, so the 3) wasn't directed to answer that. Your point in 3 is moot tho. Yatori will obey orders from above anyway and he knows that. Yatori is a celebrity just by her Igsem name alone. Just like Remion, no, maybe even more than Remion, she IS the military of the empire itself. Desobeying to his superior, even if he's wrong, is outside of question. Hence why she accept to go and simply tweak the orders to make it more effective, but not disobey. Furthermore, his brother is air rifles. That would make his 3 platoons air rifle. While air rifle are frightening at the right distance, this would make for a really unbalanced army that would become really vulnerable to enemies depending of the geography. Especially considering Ikta ended up choosing the battlefields, that would have been super bad. Also, it's to teach a lesson both to Ikta and Torway, so taking torway is illogical anyway. 4&5 no you didn't, you, that is. Read back the first line, I was pointing you toward 4H and 5 because it gives you lot information about what you were talking to with GD1551, about why they didn't kill the princess right away, and what was their goal with her, assassination or kidnapping. No, he really meant it. As he said in episode 3, Ikta says what he's thinking freely. 6 THe preach isn't for you. Really, which part, the "that's all you need" maybe? I can remove that. |
ZefyrisAug 2, 2016 3:15 AM
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| @Zefyris and no, like I said, no matter how much genius Ikta shown in his tidy execution of Sun Tzu's Art of War, it would all be meaningless if he failed to win "that contact that turned the tide." Tactic isn't just about holding the initiative. It's about making use of that initiative. That's why I pointed out the trees as crucial point. It's the part when he uses the initiative he gained when he baited the opposition into fighting on the terrain he chose. But more importantly: It's what would sell to us, noobs, of this whole war thing. A show that has 'mystery' or 'war record' or 'action' or whatever comes off the same line, has to spoil us enough to make us think, but at the same time not spoil enough to keep it exciting. The difference here is that I feel the director was keeping too much, it ended up ruining the thinking aspect of this arc to watchers. (well, or at least to me.) Oh he's new to directing? I missed that. Hope he'll get enough input to learn. Point 3: Guess we reach meet point on Torway's bro, though tbh I still think this mock battle is not the cruelest way to teach Ikta & Torway lesson. (But, then again, he's just a creep.) Point 4 & 5: That's what I said: they were soldiers. We actually share the same view on this part. Especially on the psychological part of the traitor soldiers. (Oh it was mentioned like that in the book? About the whole "carrying the princess" scene? Whoa... now that makes this anime even more poorly adapted. That moment could have been gold.) But the difference now is that I said loudly that I think they are stupid because they let their pride comes before their goal, while you seem to continue taking the 3rd spectator view while defending this work at all cost. I was hoping the whole "old general sacrificed" thing would bloom into something more serious and deep, but (for now,) it looks like I won't get what I wanted. Unfortunate. ps.: yeah, that part, "that's all you need." Normally it's okay. But you said that after a very long essay. While your points are in-line to the basics of war, the last line made you look like you are bragging that knowledge, etc etc etc you know how the psychology steps would go. |
Revvie-chanAug 2, 2016 4:51 AM
Revvie-chan said: @Zefyris and no, like I said, no matter how much genius Ikta shown in his tidy execution of Sun Tzu's Art of War, it would all be meaningless if he failed to win "that contact that turned the tide." Tactic isn't just about holding the initiative. It's about making use of that initiative. Turning the tide implies that he wasn't already winning. He, in fact was already winning before that first contact, so turning the tide here. But the thing is, it's not actually important, despite all of that. I can get the same result as him without that tree, but I cannot get the same at all without that early arrival he had. Yes, he's a complete newbie. Yes, it's definitely not the cruellest way. The thing is, it's not him who decides of who is paired with who (he obviously used of his influence here, but there is, technically, no proof of that) so that method cannot have him blamed to disrupt order. He obeyed order while giving a beating to Ikta and his brother, so that's perfect. So while it's not the cruellest way, it was a safe way for him to do it. Especially considering the 3rd princess is roaming around her knights, better tread carefully with how he's doing it. Shows again that he's not stupid. Well, it didn't turn out that way tho x). Yes, that's the way it should have been. Those tough veterans soldiers were mentally shaken already. By a sleeping child. It's not a matter of pride tho. What they wanted was simply justice. Not, killing what they revered all their life, or killing an innocent child. They were good peoples wanting justice, not stupid barbarian screaming for revenges and innocent blood to appease their wrath. If anything, rather than pride, it's them being good natured that hindered what they were doing. I see, then I'll delete that part, as this isn't intended. |
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APPROVES
| Seems like sitting through the weak beginning paid off. I begin to like the characters a lot more. That bloody rampage was awesome, Yatori (hey, I start remembering names) is a pretty cool girl after all. I especially liked the sound thing they did when she was in "the zone". |
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| OMG! That was brutally cool! Yatori at her finest slaughter mode! 5/5. |
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| Liking so far that Ikta said he would've helped to abduct the princess if he was asked to |
Kenora_NayoshiAug 3, 2016 3:58 PM
| I honestly picked up this series because people were saying the newest episode was very good. I expected the 4th episode to be overhyped, but I wasn't disappointed at all. 5/5 |
Hikka_Domosed said: The final battle is ridiculous - 18-years old girl cuts down an entire squad of elite royal guards without a single wound. I would be absolutely fine with this if it was just another brainless battle shounen, but it's not. Hope this series won't get me anymore of this kirito-bullshit. 0/10 Your 18 years old girl has been trained since she's little by the strongest swordsman alive (her father). She's pretty much top 3 in the empire herself. Your entire squad was already down to half of their members, completely exhausted mentally, were turning their back on her when she started cutting them down, took the shock of losing their commander on top of this, and was unable to move away from her blade due to the danger of the air rifle and crossbows pointed at them from the bushes. Which is, for the air rifles soldiers for example, pretty much synonym of being almost useless. On top of this, the girl was clearly under an abnormal state of adrenalin rush. For more details, look up at post 118 above, part 4A) to 4H) included. |
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| Wow this episode. It's nice that Madhouse finally has a good anime for 2016. This year was looking quite dry compared to last year's output of Parasyte, Death Parade, One-Punch Man, and My Love Story. It's not much of a year without a good anime by Madhouse. Yatori's great. I love badass red-headed female characters like her, and they seem to be popping up quite often lately. Makes me miss Yona. |
HowTragic said: you are the very definition of stupid and ignorant. If u were the commander in that battle, your team would've been slaughtered. Ask youself whyMeh ep. Not great but not terribly bad. I was looking forward to what kind of interesting strategy Ikta would crush that guy with, but instead with got some random rebellion thing in the end to forcefeed how "kewl" Yatori is. If Yatori could down a squadron of elite soldiers armed with guns by herself in actual combat, why do they even bother with strategy in this show. She would have crushed Ikta's forces single-handedly in the early skirmish by the river or the north entrance regardless of which side had the advantage. Yeah.. not a huge fan of this artificially-made super-heroine that fights for her sense of justice even though it amounts to little more than following a blind (and retrospectively wrong) ideal of loyalty. |
Zefyris said: Revvie-chan said: @Zefyris and no, like I said, no matter how much genius Ikta shown in his tidy execution of Sun Tzu's Art of War, it would all be meaningless if he failed to win "that contact that turned the tide." Tactic isn't just about holding the initiative. It's about making use of that initiative. Turning the tide implies that he wasn't already winning. Sorry for late reply. Ah, so there's where we went wrong. No, I don't say he hadn't won yet before the tree thing. Actually, I think he already won even before they started marching. - Torway big bro made strategical mistake by taking Yatri instead of Torway. He got too cocky and cost himself both his pride & the mock battle for it. - And, as you said, Ikta gained a decisive tactical victory by making his opponent play on his field under his rules. - But Ikta only won the actual battle by crossing the river and creating that surprise element that broke his opposition's morale. That is what I meant by momentum in my post. Strategical victory, tactical victory, and the actual victory, are three different things, after all. (imo, but I'm pretty sure it's in-line with all the theories of tactics. I can mention cases, if you want. From Pyrrhic victory to France losing EURO 2016 final. #nooffense) and after the basis above, I applied it to this anime's execution using my very limited knowledge of how Japan creative art industry works, etc etc etc. (Maybe I should have talked with you as a student of war instead of an anime watcher. Sorry, my bad.) ps.: Justice is subjective, btw. It depends on the value you hold as a person. Thus comes my opinion on why the rebels failed. |
| Red really is a good colour, isn't it... A superb episode, particularly Ikta's tactical (and strategical) insight. The WMD called Yatori was also highly impressive, especially as she was clutching her weapons so tightly even after the engagement. Touching stuff. |
| Wow Yatori was impressive during this fight and it's been a long time that I didn't see a realistic fight so well animated. Ikta seems to be the only one who can calm her down .Gj Madhouse. |
| This really is one of the best anime of the season, loved this episode. Madhouse doing a really good job animation wise. The character relationships are interesting. |
| I didn't like that after seemingly bypassing it, this series moved into the military school part of the story. And this episode did little to alleviate this dissatisfaction at first with the not particularly engaging battle between Ikta and Torway's asshole brother. Parts of it were cool, as a whole didn't really come together for me though and I think the end of the conflict was a little confused. But the end of the episode had one really dope action scene, that seems to promise cool things ahead and hopefully soon. For poorly explained reasons the Princess gets lost in the woods and ends up being taken captive by Ikta's wrongfully disgraced father's renegade men. This was a genuinely surprising and exciting turn, which seems to suggest the beginning of the inevitable internal conflict against the King. Yatori's seamless evisceration of them at the end was simultaneously hilarious in how over the top it was, and kind of just badass. I like the revelation she kind of blood lusts out, and Ikta calming her down was really sweet. Not a great episode, but it pulled it together at the end. I think this is still a fun if unexceptional show and I hope next week is a lot better. |
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| Great episode. Ikta's genius tactics and Yatori's godlike skills in combat. Both were very satisfying to see. |
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| God damn, that was amazing. This has serious AOTS potential and is definitely my favorite anime of the season so far. |
| I love how the blood is a vivid red. Great animation during that scene. Best episode yet. |
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| This is suddenly becoming pretty damn good. There's a lot of chaff this season as a whole but this is starting to stick out as one of the few decent ones. |
 It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
| Got pretty hyped during the battle, shit made me so horn horn that it made me want to fap it to it :D |
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Cornbread78 said: sleeper hit of the season... That was amazing. I agree 100%. even though I wasn't that impressed by the first episode, this show is getting better and better, and I've now definitely settled on watching it. Loved how they showed Yatori's 1000-yard stare and her being physically unable to let go of her swords. Very few people even know that actually happens, but it does in real swordfights. Dark_Kain said: geralt said: So wait did Ikta basically say he would have joined the rebels in killing the princess or did I misinterpret that? The meaning here is supposed to be that he would have joined them if they had come to him with some concrete objectives in reforming the empire. Making an example out of the third princess would not hurt the corrupt government at all. This. Ikta's phrasing was a bit tactless again, but everyone knows he wouldn't harm the princess, hence also her reaction at the end. Dark_Kain said: Lelouch0202 said: I guess her slaughter comes at a cost of becoming way too tensed. Wonder if there's a reason behind that. Yeah, there is a reason. Ikta is basically the only person that can snap her out of that state, they are probably going to explain it later maybe even in the next episode (It's pretty important, they can't just cut it off). Still though, I'd say her tensed state is actually perfectly normal given the situation/condition she was in. |
LaionidasAug 12, 2016 4:34 PM
| "I'm a middle schooler bartender!" - Mishima Hitomi |
| Amazing episode, Yatori and Ikta are so badass. Hoping for more Matthew and medic girl screentime. 5/5 |
| Damn, I simply *love* this anime so much. Might be one of my all time favorite animes along with FMA:B if it can keep up. I'm so saddened by the fact that it will only have 13 episodes though :( The story is so great. (Yatori's and Ikta's relationship is also quite nice. Much "deeper" than in most other anime. Man, they could totally include a little bit of romance though.) |
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| Dat animation when the soldier who kidnapped the princess got shot damn and the others suddenly changing from position. Red haired girl went berzerk lol. Kinda shipping her with MC now. Good episode. |
| That end came a bit unexpected. Yattori is a fucking monster. But once again Torway turned the tides with his aim. The mock battle was pretty cool even though it was obvious who was going to win. Also I have to say the other one of Torway's brothers actually is a lot better at this whole thing than the asshole brother. Didn't expect that. He is also a lot less asshole (that was visible after the last episode already though). Great episode. But with all the stuff that is happening I'm just waiting for Ikta to turn rogue. I'm not sure if it really is going to happen but all in all he doesn't fit very well into that place. It kinda seems natural for him to just leave or worse at some point. He is a genius commander but he could do that for any party. geralt said: So wait did Ikta basically say he would have joined the rebels in killing the princess or did I misinterpret that? Late response but w/e. I interpreted it like he understood where they were coming from and would have helped them to fight against the people who killed the General with their decisions. I doubt he would have killed the princess but not because he wouldn't be able to. Simply because it wouldn't change or do anything to revenge the death of that General. |
NanashiAug 14, 2016 3:30 PM
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