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Restructuring the Chain of Command for Forum Moderators

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Dec 26, 2015 2:46 PM
#1

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Sep 2009
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So it's pretty well known that there are problems with staff numbers for the forums. I think it's widely recognised that the solution is to hire more moderators, but the difficulty involved in finding the right people for the job and training them up quickly is difficult. Another fairly common complaint is that the moderators who are active have very little presence on the forums themselves.

Presently there is one group of forum moderators who take responsibilities for all of the forums, meaning that becoming a moderator places one under a great deal of pressure (they must check through forums, even those which they have no interest in) and of course a great deal of responsibility. I know most of the moderation team well and I often get the feeling that what they do feels more like a job than the community role which it really ought to be.

So I would like to propose that we make a change to the chain of command, making it less centralised. My initial proposal is to split the moderation team into groups:

1. Head Moderators

These moderators will have control over the entire forum. They will be the most senior staff members and they will be responsible for supervising the moderation team for the entire site. This means they will be charged with selecting potential candidates, assessing their suitability for the role and ensuring that the rest of the moderation team applies the rules in a uniform way. If there is some uncertainty about any decision, it will be referred to the head moderators to make a decision and if necessary, provide clarification on a new rule.

2. Supervising Moderators

These moderators will be responsible for a few forums, and will essentially be the mentors of the lower level mods. They will carry out the same functions as the basic moderators, but across several of the forums, and provide them with guidance on how to go about completing their duties.

I would expect that most of the current moderation team would be either supervising moderators or head moderators.

3. Trainee Moderators

These moderators will be responsible for the moderation of only a single forum. They will be trusted members of the community who can be relied upon to deal with the more obvious forms of rule violation, such as getting rid of advertising or banning obvious trolls, but will be expected to consult the supervising moderators if there is some uncertainty about whether a violation has occurred.

To make this more efficient, they may consult with a moderator other than their supervisor.


Potential Issues:

I should stress that although I am a moderator, I am not a forum moderator and so have no experience of the current system. Consequently I may not be best placed to solve any issues it may have, but I do think a more hierarchal system would allow for a reasonable compromise between uniform application of the rules and widespread enforcement.

Potential Benefits
  • More distributed workload for moderators
  • Training opportunities for new moderators
  • Moderator presence in the community


Alright, there's my suggestion: please have at it. :P

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Dec 26, 2015 3:46 PM
#2
Lead Admin
Faerie Queen

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Aug 2007
6258
AnnoKano said:
I think it's widely recognised that the solution is to hire more moderators
The structuring of the team isn't the problem. The problem is that:
  • there are very few users who demonstrate the community-oriented attitude and maturity required to be a forum moderator; those who do often choose not to sink their free time into cleaning up after other people's messes
  • many users simply do not care to follow the rules, and prefer to contribute to the trash already present
  • users that may have potential to be good forum moderators - the time and interest are there - either display too much aggressiveness or otherwise conduct themselves in a manner that makes it difficult for us to trust giving them powers

So here we are. The users we invite to be mods don't want to do the job, those who do want to do the job don't want to behave like a moderator until they get the cap (because we're supposed to know we can trust them), and then there are some rug rats who just enjoy the forum being poorly moderated and break rules because hey, that's fun. And the rest of the general community, who don't fall into any of these camps, are the ones who suffer.

Well, actually I think we all suffer.

Here are the requirements to be a forum moderator. Please note the following paragraphs:

We need forum moderators. I want to hire forum moderators. But finding users who we can trust to enforce the rules, not break the rules themselves, and put the community's interests first, seems to be a neverending battle.

If you find one, somewhere, send them knocking on KinaBot's door.
Dec 26, 2015 4:20 PM
#3

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Mar 2010
55456
Yeah this is basic Industrial Age practices. Composed of managers over one area and more managers over others who have supervisors and leads under them.

The problem is that what the team needs is Recruiters that look at a user as a potential team member, not as a obstacle. After three months or less if the Recruits do not fit a certain criteria then they are given warnings (at least 3) Until they need further training and management. If not then they are expelled for a week until they get their acts together.

Right now things are relied on emotions rather than opportunity.

Behold of my awesomeness~
controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted.
But my feels.
Dec 26, 2015 4:33 PM
#4
Lead Admin
Faerie Queen

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6258
Rasco said:
Right now things are relied on emotions rather than opportunity.
It does not rely on emotions. It relies on users proving themselves capable of following the rules and not reacting aggressively to fellow users before they are given powers to access your account history, delete your posts, delete your threads, and ban you from the site.

It creates much more work and problems with the community when I need to clean up real moderator abuse problems versus only perceived.
Dec 26, 2015 4:37 PM
#5

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Jun 2010
2561
Kineta said:
seems to be a neverending battle.

But isn't this lack of trust-able suitable candidates exactly the problem OP's suggestion is trying to solve?

If you have a handful of people who display interest into being mods but you can't trust them fully yet, why not add them as Trainee Mods and see what happens? They may not be the perfect example of the figure of a mod you envisioned but this doesn't mean they can't handle simple questions, lock spam threads, issue warnings, actually speed up the report queue, etc. (which is exactly what's lacking on this forum right now)

I apologize for bringing an analogy here, but I got no better way to summarize it:
When one is out of food and starving (for quite a while now) shouldn't one make his/hers tastes more flexible until things are back to a decent status? This does not mean you need to degrade yourself to eating anything and everything in a barbarian manner, but simply widen up your range, find replacements for expansive stuff or even buy cheaper food so quantity will replace quality for a while.
When you're healthy again, you start filtering out.

Isn't DeNA releasing more and more features that are unquestionably moderation-intensive?
What's your plan to deal with this situation when your recruitment program is based on the improbable appearance and voluntary sign-up of someone worth being a mod?
Bluntly put, you have the tools to put an end on this neverending battle, yourself.
Dec 26, 2015 4:40 PM
#6

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Mar 2010
55456
Kineta said:
Rasco said:
Right now things are relied on emotions rather than opportunity.
It does not rely on emotions. It relies on users proving themselves capable of following the rules and not reacting aggressively to fellow users before they are given powers to access your account history, delete your posts, delete your threads, and ban you from the site.

It creates much more work and problems with the community when I need to clean up real moderator abuse problems versus only perceived.
If it does not rely on emotions then You should have a vast number of trainees that are being watched and disciplined. This thread suggests the limitations of trainees so they can't access all that information right from the start. That is the basic of industrial age practices, you start low, and work your way up.

Behold of my awesomeness~
controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted.
But my feels.
Dec 26, 2015 4:53 PM
#7
Lead Admin
Faerie Queen

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6258
Please don't throw around my use of the word "trust" as if it is a female, friendly emotion that involves you sending me cuddly teddy bears to make my heart go mushy.

If someone has a criminal record for stealing, you don't give them access to your cash register. If a user cannot obey the rules they are supposed to enforce during and after the time they submit an application, they demonstrate they are not capable of holding the position. It also is not worth the time to train a moderator who will be kicked out or leave because they cannot follow the rules.

And it does little good to the site to have a bunch of forum moderators who cannot delete posts, delete threads, warn or ban users.
Dec 26, 2015 4:58 PM
#8

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Mar 2010
55456
Well thats the point Kineta You don't give them the cash register a thief might start as a floor moper and if they don't have any write ups and have proven their loyalty then they can potentially be given the cash register job:

"Managers used to have a choice of styles: “theory y” (people are responsible and can be trusted) or “theory x” (people aren’t responsible and need to be controlled.) But the 1980’s call to replace managers with leaders arbitrarily restricted managers to the “theory x” style while gifting leadership the “theory y” style. This move was made because we wanted leaders to take over the domain of managers, getting work done through people. This left us with no way to differentiate managers from leaders except through totally arbitrary style assignments. Source" http://iveybusinessjournal.com/publication/a-new-role-for-management-in-todays-post-industrial-organization/

Of course this is the post industrial age ideal, but in basic Industrial age times, anyone could get a job and with a proven track record they can get a higher position. Trust is something earned not given.

Behold of my awesomeness~
controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted.
But my feels.
Dec 26, 2015 5:01 PM
#9
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Faerie Queen

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Rasco said:
Trust is something earned not given.
Kineta said:
Trust in a user's community skills is not something that can be demonstrated on an application form; it is earned through the user's general behaviour on the site. Your posts on the forum now are your references for your application.

I believe we are in agreement on this point. We are in disagreement over how that trust is earned.
Dec 26, 2015 5:08 PM
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Apr 2013
12542
I am not joking, fire everyone and vote forum moderators based on community trust.
Dec 26, 2015 5:15 PM

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55456
Kineta said:
Rasco said:
Trust is something earned not given.
Kineta said:
Trust in a user's community skills is not something that can be demonstrated on an application form; it is earned through the user's general behaviour on the site. Your posts on the forum now are your references for your application.

I believe we are in agreement on this point. We are in disagreement over how that trust is earned.
Yeah I don't care if people go out and get drunk and do drugs, but when its time to be competent and follow rules on the job or during volunteer, then I see no problem. Making everything be part of the resume is well.. I think your ultimately giving yourself more work.. Either way.

Behold of my awesomeness~
controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted.
But my feels.
Dec 26, 2015 5:18 PM

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Oct 2015
2099
Kineta said:
The problem is that:
  • there are very few users who demonstrate the community-oriented attitude and maturity required to be a forum moderator; those who do often choose not to sink their free time into cleaning up after other people's messes



Is this not what AnnoKano's suggestion is trying to address ? Maybe more would be willing to help if it would not seem such gigantic task ?

Maybe some people you do trust might be willing to go after spambots and clean up, but rather not get into fights between users ?

Would these not still help relieve workload for existing moderators ?
BannoBunka_snorkDec 26, 2015 5:19 PM
*darn, using my right hand is off-limits for a while. Typing with my left hand only is ... eww.*
Dec 26, 2015 5:42 PM

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Kineta said:
Please don't throw around my use of the word "trust" as if it is a female, friendly emotion that involves you sending me cuddly teddy bears to make my heart go mushy.

Did Rasco or anyone else imply that? I don't think so...

Kineta said:
If someone has a criminal record for stealing, you don't give them access to your cash register. If a user cannot obey the rules they are supposed to enforce during and after the time they submit an application, they demonstrate they are not capable of holding the position. It also is not worth the time to train a moderator who will be kicked out or leave because they cannot follow the rules.

Except where are not suggesting you do that. Nobody would hire a former thief to handle his finances but it's reasonable to hire someone arrested for "peace disturbance" to do your dishes.
I constantly see a lot of users who post not only on this sub-forum but also on many clubs/threads scattered around that clearly demonstrate both the maturity and the interest needed for being a Trainee Mod. However, it seems they're ALL blacklisted from the start because they got banned somewhere in the past or are in disagreement with someone from the staff.
But do you check the relation between these offenses and the "job" they're interested in doing? Why can't someone banned once for e.g. "spam" be a suitable mod? He got banned and changed his behavior after all! Isn't this enough?

Kineta said:
And it does little good to the site to have a bunch of forum moderators who cannot delete posts, delete threads, warn or ban users.

Who says they wouldn't be able to do so?
Things like these can only be proven true or false empirically.
Dec 26, 2015 5:44 PM

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BannoBunka_snork said:
Kineta said:
The problem is that:
  • there are very few users who demonstrate the community-oriented attitude and maturity required to be a forum moderator; those who do often choose not to sink their free time into cleaning up after other people's messes



Is this not what AnnoKano's suggestion is trying to address ? Maybe more would be willing to help if it would not seem such gigantic task ?

Maybe some people you do trust might be willing to go after spambots and clean up, but rather not get into fights between users ?

Would these not still help relieve workload for existing moderators ?
Yeah someone could be a professional Bot finder and then would want more responsibility, and if not they could decline and go back to their old profession. Making the mods be everywhere and in charge of "Everything" might make them less proficient. I like the "divide and conquer" Strategy. Making the whole forum Mod team focus on all issues rather than specific ones is probably why the criteria is not competitively successful. Not everyone want to be a DB or "top dog" some do and need to healthily compete for it. And those who don't can still enjoy doing easier tasks.

Behold of my awesomeness~
controversial and/or sensitive topics likely devolve into the same repetitive, derogatory, abusive, and harassing comments can no longer be posted.
But my feels.
Dec 27, 2015 4:37 AM

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11719
Kineta said:
AnnoKano said:
I think it's widely recognised that the solution is to hire more moderators
The structuring of the team isn't the problem. The problem is that: there are very few users who demonstrate the community-oriented attitude and maturity required to be a forum moderator; those who do often choose not to sink their free time into cleaning up after other people's messes

This is a mistaken perspective, I think. You will obviously find it hard to get potentially good candidates: because they are not required to be mature and community-oriented in their usual interactions. The perception I and I think a lot of users have is that once turned into moderators, users are perfectly capable of changing their mindset and their posting routines.

Anyway I could understand this issue if the community was a little one. 1,000-20,000 single users or so. But MAL? Come on! Are you telling me that among 3,000,000+ accounts you guys can only find like 10 or 20 potential candidates every time? No matter how I look at it, this sounds like not trying hard enough or meeting too strict standards; either way, it's not working. I'm not in a position for demanding you an extra effort but at least don't try to make it look like you don't have alternatives because the userbase is awful and beyond redemption.

Kineta said:
many users simply do not care to follow the rules, and prefer to contribute to the trash already present

So did users that later became moderators.

Kineta said:
users that may have potential to be good forum moderators - the time and interest are there - either display too much aggressiveness or otherwise conduct themselves in a manner that makes it difficult for us to trust giving them powers

Isn't that the point of the training period that was mentioned by AnnoKano in this same thread?

Kineta said:
Here are the requirements to be a forum moderator. Please note the following paragraphs:
Trust in a user's community skills is not something that can be demonstrated on an application form; it is earned through the user's general behaviour on the site. Your posts on the forum now are your references for your application. If we like your references, then we'll consider asking you for a resume.

And yet, I remember for instance how _Ghost_ had a very marginal forum activity before he turned into a moderator.

Kineta said:
I've heard on many occasions, "If I were a moderator, I would clean up my act and wouldn't post all the bullshit I do now". To which my response is, why aren't you doing it already? If you truly care about MAL, are truly passionate about the forum, then why are you contributing to the trash on it? And then somehow blame the forum mods for it being so messy.

Because turning into a moderator changes your duties in the forums. People post here to have fun, people choose to be mods to demonstrate commitment. That's what I mean by a mistaken perspective. Becoming a mod means changing your role in the forum, and it's difficult to measure how much can people adapt their discourse to the new situation.

The eternal issue of too few mods is something that definitely needs to be addressed in some way. If not by widening the search or being a little more confident with what users can offer, which I think is the best way to go, maybe making changes in the current structure. There are strategies for that; AnnoKano had one here that is very interesting, but maybe just redistributing the work of the current mods would work fine. Letting each of the current mods take care of one very active or a few mildly active subforums. That way we are sure to meet uniform criteria for each subforum and the work load for each would be much lighter.
Dec 27, 2015 5:13 AM

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Aug 2013
8707
Agreed. Standards now are a wee bit high for a thankless, frankly tedious volunteer position. The way it's done now seems kinda...cold? I guess. Have you tried interviews or something, might help alleviate the trust barrier somewhat.

Jal hit the nail on the head, also.
FoDec 27, 2015 5:25 AM
Dec 27, 2015 5:47 AM

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It's painfully obvious that you guys are in need of more moderators and I think Trainee Mods is a perfect answer for that.
Dec 27, 2015 5:55 AM

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Kineta said:
  • there are very few users who demonstrate the community-oriented attitude and maturity required to be a forum moderator; those who do often choose not to sink their free time into cleaning up after other people's messes
  • many users simply do not care to follow the rules, and prefer to contribute to the trash already present
  • users that may have potential to be good forum moderators - the time and interest are there - either display too much aggressiveness or otherwise conduct themselves in a manner that makes it difficult for us to trust giving them powers

This is pretty much spot-on, but it is this way for a reason a well.

Unlike other communities, MAL is pretty much free. The restrictions there are are pretty much the ultimate borders, meaning that they simply have to be enforced in order to keep peace and clean state to a reasonable extent. The forums are lax. They are relatively not strict.

As such, users are thrown into this environment, where they have a huge zone of movement. But despite that, for a user to have the qualities of a forum moderator, the lax restrictions shouldn't matter. That user should have their own mindset of what is appropriate and what a civilized and expected interaction between other community members means. In other words, no matter what the "norm" might be, the user must be strong enough of an individual do deem what is appropriate and what not themselves, not what the staff tolerates.

But as many adapt to the atmosphere and how things run, the size of those who keep their own respective tempo and posture can be lower than elsewhere around. Still, there is a certain way a user must present themselves in order to be trusted and well perform moderation duties, hence keeping the current criteria when deciding who to recruit is wise.

This message isn't meant as a reply to you, Kineta, as you are probably well-aware of all that I've stated. I merely quoted a part of your post to expand onto it.
SubbedDec 27, 2015 5:58 AM
Dec 27, 2015 6:02 AM

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Jun 2008
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I dunno, to me it makes perfect sense that a user is supposed to have "community-oriented" attitude even before becoming a moderator. It shows that the person TRULY cares, that they are behaving nicely not because they are expected or required to but because that's really the kind of people they are. Why would you trust a person if you've just witnessed them putting on a mask?
Dec 27, 2015 6:07 AM

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kuchitsu said:
I dunno, to me it makes perfect sense that a user is supposed to have "community-oriented" attitude even before becoming a moderator. It shows that the person TRULY cares, that they are behaving nicely not because they are expected or required to but because that's really the kind of people they are. Why would you trust a person if you've just witnessed them putting on a mask?

It's not as simple as that. Some are community-orientated, actively participate in discussions and are nice to fellow community members, but can turn quite unreasonably aggressive towards specific individuals (example being towards the staff). I speak from personal experience when I say this.

As such, all three points listed in Kineta's first reply on this thread apply at the same time. If there is one downside that is just too major to let go, one cannot simply recruit that person as a moderator. Especially if they repeat the mistake over and over again.
Dec 27, 2015 6:26 AM

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Feb 2011
2489
Agree on more decentralization of the decisional power,
cause, even if few, there are already moderators able and willing to help improve the forums, but they can't do it properly cause they need an approval from "above" for anything which goes beyond trashcleaning ( is the work of a moderator just being a call-center for reports? )

an example of that was the request of having more transparency over minor updates, which a moderator was willing to pick up, but they couldn't cause they needed an authorization first, which even after asking, didn't get any sort of reply

how are you even expecting to have more people to be interested to sign up as moderators when it's clear all you want is forum janitors, and nothing more

Fixes to make the Profile more bearable after "the Modern★Profile★Update★★Rip★Profile★"
Dec 27, 2015 12:05 PM

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Jul 2014
4195
worldeditor11 said:
I am not joking, fire everyone and vote forum moderators based on community trust.
Yes, seriously agree on this idea. AD is just a glob mess and forum mods are nonexistent to do the janitorial work. Sometimes I wonder how they even got invited in the first place, exclusive club maybe? So much for "community-based"...

Regarding AD, particularly listing threads:
OppaiSugoi said:
I report this shit all the time, mods are lazy asses, what's the point anymore...
Dec 27, 2015 2:03 PM

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Jan 2009
91622
why not program/code the forum moderation into ranks with decreasing tasks/powers as you go lower in rank? like

Super Moderators - are the ones that can only ban members, can change the forum structure like changing adding/deleting/organizing boards, can delete posts and threads, and etc

Forum Moderators - has all the moderating powers of a Head Moderator except for banning members and other etc tasks of a Super Moderator, oh they can also give warnings that will be check by the Super Moderators

Board/Trainee Moderators - specifically moderates a specific sub-board only, can only delete posts and threads only and warn users that will be check by the Super Moderators

in order to become a Forum Moderator you need to be a Board/Trainee Moderator for at least 6 months
in order to become a Super Moderator you need to be a Forum Moderator for at least 6 months

this i think can reduce that trust issues you have on finding a moderator, your forum requirements right now have very high standard

this suggestion also requires that there will be warning/banning and posts and threads (even deleted posts and threads) history for each user to effectively check if the bans and warnings are correct by all moderators, only ban count/history will be access by Super Moderators and above though while Forum Moderators and Board/Trainee Moderators can only check the warning count/history of a user

and also what happened to the promise overhaul of the banning system? Xinil said on the reddit AMA that the banning system will change like if you are banned in the forums then you are just gonna be banned on the forums
Dec 27, 2015 4:04 PM

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j0x said:
and also what happened to the promise overhaul of the banning system? Xinil said on the reddit AMA that the banning system will change like if you are banned in the forums then you are just gonna be banned on the forums
It's called vaporware, just like the empty promises of MAL staff and their appeals to their definition of "righteousness" on the community.
Dec 27, 2015 7:55 PM

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Jun 2013
6126
The only good threads in AD get nuked whilst threads that don't encourage discussion stay for multiple days, where are the mods when these are around? If you don't have enough to moderate the forums then maybe you should get some more.. I mean, they work for free anyway. If you can't find any that fit your rainbow and lollipop world then maybe you should lower your standards and give others that express interest a chance, it's not like they can do much harm anyways, and there would (should) be some serious consequences for abusing mod powers that it would discourage people who weren't committed from applying. The moderators shouldn't just be deleting and locking threads, they should be actively trying to encourage discussion, even in threads that may have little chance. They should also have the authority to decide for themselves whether a thread is worth keeping open or not, not all listing threads are inherently bad and some do harbor good discussion points.

Not to mention those god awful featured articles that we are supposedly paying the people for... what the fuck, we could get rid of them and spend the money on moderators and this place would be 30 times better. Just stating once again how terrible those featured articles are, they make me regret using this site even though I love it so much.
Dec 28, 2015 4:51 AM

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Oct 2014
834
For me, I rarely see the moderators around. They are not prompt on locking threads and are not particularly punctual in responding to requests and reports, or at least so I have heard from other people who utilize the systems in place to help clean up the forums.

I will have to sit and observe for longer before making a final opinion, but a hierarchy for the moderator team seems preposterously obvious and I would have thought that it would already be, at the very least in spirit, implemented for the sake of creating a "team" and not a set of individuals who operate independently of one another.

But I am not in the team, so I cannot speak to the actual inner workings of it all.
Dec 28, 2015 6:12 AM

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Jul 2015
126
Can "Trainee Moderators" be renamed to"Sexy Intern Mods" ?

But on topic.. A chain of moderation if a good model.
If as others have suggested (in the ideal situation) - new mods are brought in their needs to be supervision and mentor-ship of them.

Saying this.. A lot of people think that getting a mod account would make them look "cool" or whatever in other people eyes. Being a mod means you get instant hate and you can't continue being buddy buddy with people. And the work you do do right is never appreciated - but whenever you make a mistake - oh boy - you will hear about it...
Dec 28, 2015 6:23 AM
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May 2015
1529
I wish I can become a moderator, but I'm younger than 17..
yhunata said:
It's painfully obvious that you guys are in need of more moderators and I think Trainee Mods is a perfect answer for that.
This.
Dec 28, 2015 7:09 AM
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mafia_princess said:
I wish I can become a moderator, but I'm younger than 17...

The requirement is actually 18+, while being 17+ is for DB and review mods.
Dec 28, 2015 8:27 AM

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4195
SenshiDave said:
Saying this.. A lot of people think that getting a mod account would make them look "cool" or whatever in other people eyes. Being a mod means you get instant hate and you can't continue being buddy buddy with people. And the work you do do right is never appreciated - but whenever you make a mistake - oh boy - you will hear about it...
http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1453975&show=50#msg43339709
Dec 28, 2015 8:56 AM

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Kineta said:
there are very few users who demonstrate the community-oriented attitude and maturity required to be a forum moderator; those who do often choose not to sink their free time into cleaning up after other people's messes


No, there are plenty of people who are mature enough to be a forum mod. The people who pick forum mods, whoever they are, are just not good at realizing who it is. For example, Usagi has never been warned, she has run a club with over 10000 people, giving her more experience than any other candidate, and is always nice and considerate in her posts. There is absolutely no reason to pick anyone over her. Another example is Dawn, who is basically a younger version of Usagi in terms of maturity. If not for the silly 18+ year old rule to become a moderator, she too would make a great mod.
Dec 28, 2015 9:49 AM
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Mar 2013
10447
I've always thought it would be a good idea to hire some mods who have been on the receiving end of bans and warnings. It would help to bridge the moderator-user rift and they would be much more understanding and would have a better grasp of the general community. I remember we had a lot of problems when some mods who almost never used the forums were hired.
Dec 28, 2015 10:49 AM

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JD2411 said:
I've always thought it would be a good idea to hire some mods who have been on the receiving end of bans and warnings.

Not the best idea IMO but I respect your reasoning behind it.
Dec 28, 2015 11:08 AM

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Chiki said:
Kineta said:
there are very few users who demonstrate the community-oriented attitude and maturity required to be a forum moderator; those who do often choose not to sink their free time into cleaning up after other people's messes


No, there are plenty of people who are mature enough to be a forum mod. The people who pick forum mods, whoever they are, are just not good at realizing who it is. For example, Usagi has never been warned, she has run a club with over 10000 people, giving her more experience than any other candidate, and is always nice and considerate in her posts. There is absolutely no reason to pick anyone over her. Another example is Dawn, who is basically a younger version of Usagi in terms of maturity. If not for the silly 18+ year old rule to become a moderator, she too would make a great mod.


Kineta also mentions that not enough candidates are willing to devote time to being a forum moderator. I'm sure there are many great candidates, but it's not surprising to have people not willing to be a forum moderator simply due to the amount of work and stress expected to deal whenever spending time on MAL.
Dec 28, 2015 11:25 AM

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Dan said:
Chiki said:


No, there are plenty of people who are mature enough to be a forum mod. The people who pick forum mods, whoever they are, are just not good at realizing who it is. For example, Usagi has never been warned, she has run a club with over 10000 people, giving her more experience than any other candidate, and is always nice and considerate in her posts. There is absolutely no reason to pick anyone over her. Another example is Dawn, who is basically a younger version of Usagi in terms of maturity. If not for the silly 18+ year old rule to become a moderator, she too would make a great mod.


Kineta also mentions that not enough candidates are willing to devote time to being a forum moderator. I'm sure there are many great candidates, but it's not surprising to have people not willing to be a forum moderator simply due to the amount of work and stress expected to deal whenever spending time on MAL.


If only you knew Usagi already applied, and Dawn said she would have applied if not for her age.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks the admins have no idea what they're doing, and they're completely out of touch with the community.

If they really want to deal with the spammers, they have to be nicer to them. Modding people like Tyrel who treat others badly makes the situation worse.
ChikiDec 28, 2015 11:29 AM
Dec 28, 2015 12:38 PM

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This is starting to look more and more like your typical suggestion thread:
Community shows up, admins vanish. Discussion halted. Circular arguments raised. Topic archived.

Let's be honest, the only reason Kineta actually showed up on the thread is because it was created by an IRC Mod. If this was a thread by (e.g) Subpyro, it would be on the ignore list from the moment of its creation.
You may choose to ignore the despairing need of a system like the one suggested on the OP for as long as you wish but if this chaos continues, one day, inevitably, DeNA might take over operational control of MAL and they'll hire whoever they want to be moderators.
Then all this extra cautiousness to who can be a mod will be for nothing.

Chiki said:
If they really want to deal with the spammers, they have to be nicer to them. Modding people like Tyrel who treat others badly makes the situation worse.

I beg to differ.
Though, this is an unrelated subject to the one being discussed on the OP. Let's stay on topic.
Dec 28, 2015 12:48 PM

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i must be posting in the wrong forums, i never see any of the corruption you guys are describing :]
Dec 28, 2015 1:33 PM

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KazuyaKujo said:
i must be posting in the wrong forums, i never see any of the corruption you guys are describing :]

Even though not precisely shining with quality posts most of the time, the majority of the forum boards on MAL are holding up well. The problematic ones are by the far most active two, which stand as the main aspect of the MAL forums community-wise: Anime Discussion and Casual Discussion.

Other boards shouldn't and I believe aren't an issue to moderate on a regular basis. It is these two cores, AD and CD, that stockpile high-intensity mess. With the activity being so high in them in comparison to other boards, they are mainly considered as the hot-spot of the forums, hence not specifically named AD and CD, but simply referred to as "the forums".
Dec 28, 2015 3:26 PM

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It would be nice to hear the opinion of current moderators regarding this idea. If we're going to suggest any changes to how moderation is going to function (structurally), some input and feedback from current moderators is helpful.
Dec 28, 2015 3:41 PM
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Chiki said:

If they really want to deal with the spammers, they have to be nicer to them. Modding people like Tyrel who treat others badly makes the situation worse.


Right. The situation got considerably worse in the forums because he left. Even though he was harsh, he did his job as described. I don't think he was a bad mod. At least, not compared to others.
worldeditor11Dec 28, 2015 3:41 PM
Dec 28, 2015 3:42 PM

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worldeditor11 said:
Chiki said:

If they really want to deal with the spammers, they have to be nicer to them. Modding people like Tyrel who treat others badly makes the situation worse.


Right. The situation got considerably worse in the forums because he left. Even though he was harsh, he did his job as described. I don't think he was a bad mod. At least, not compared to others.


rejoice since Tyrel is a forum moderator again http://myanimelist.net/profile/Tyrel
Dec 28, 2015 3:57 PM

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j0x said:
worldeditor11 said:


Right. The situation got considerably worse in the forums because he left. Even though he was harsh, he did his job as described. I don't think he was a bad mod. At least, not compared to others.


rejoice since Tyrel is a forum moderator again http://myanimelist.net/profile/Tyrel

B A S E D
A
S
E
D
Dec 28, 2015 4:01 PM
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xbobx said:
j0x said:


rejoice since Tyrel is a forum moderator again http://myanimelist.net/profile/Tyrel

B A S E D
A
S
E
D


MUH NIGGA
Dec 28, 2015 4:03 PM

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j0x said:
worldeditor11 said:


Right. The situation got considerably worse in the forums because he left. Even though he was harsh, he did his job as described. I don't think he was a bad mod. At least, not compared to others.


rejoice since Tyrel is a forum moderator again http://myanimelist.net/profile/Tyrel

Good, he was the best mod i've seen in this forum.
Dec 28, 2015 4:18 PM

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Someone make a new thread with the exact same topic seeing as the mods seem to forget about suggestion threads 2 hours after they're created.
Dec 28, 2015 4:39 PM
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jal90 said:

Kineta said:
many users simply do not care to follow the rules, and prefer to contribute to the trash already present

So did users that later became moderators.


Have to agree there.

I would be in favor of testing out this suggestion and seeing how it goes. You can have new moderators who you aren't sure of as trainees too, maybe with a time limit to see how they do.

No matter the position in the mod ladder though it should be kept open. The Head mods can have the final say but everyone in the team should still be heard if they have suggestions. The community as well, of course.
Dec 28, 2015 11:15 PM

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Let's face it. One doesn't require extraordinary talent to moderate well. It all comes down to whether the current staff (Kineta) accepts you on the team or not. For that to happen, besides showing interest, you mustn't present yourself in a negative way to the staff. They won't really dig into your past posts, even though they might be potentially bad.

The thing is, the majority of the people are trustworthy if given the access power. It doesn't matter how they behaved in the past, if they say they are interested, they won't abuse the power while in the position and given trust. The only actual factor is how much drama Kineta believes you will generate behind the scenes and tends to avoid it.

That, I believe is just stupid. Because it yet again expresses her vision of "what if". Do excuse me, but I do not really believe that the worst of drama queens would actually create much or any drama behind the scenes. I speak from personal experience when I say this. Give interested people some credit, you aren't risking by far as much as you think you are.

Otherwise, not giving people who are interested and active a chance is just meaningless, especially when the forums are in dire need of moderators.
Dec 28, 2015 11:45 PM

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Praland said:
j0x said:


rejoice since Tyrel is a forum moderator again http://myanimelist.net/profile/Tyrel

Good, he was the best mod i've seen in this forum.
Holy molly, not all hope is lost after all.
Dan said:
It would be nice to hear the opinion of current moderators regarding this idea. If we're going to suggest any changes to how moderation is going to function (structurally), some input and feedback from current moderators is helpful.
You would have wait for them to go to forums first. Besides the new team, Ghost, and MasterTengkorak I see little to no activity with reports. And 0 activity without reports.
Kineta said:
Your posts on the forum now are your references for your application.
I believe we are in agreement on this point. We are in disagreement over how that trust is earned.
It would be good if you would start earning it, but then again why would you care about the community.
ExTemplarDec 29, 2015 12:02 AM

Dec 29, 2015 4:26 AM

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As most of you know, we got four new mods out of several candidates. What they can only do on their own right now is to remove/ban obvious spambots and move threads to their correct boards. Anything else should be first reviewed and approved by a senior mod (me, Tyrel, rodac etc) before they execute it. They don't have much freedom and that's where the problem comes. There will be times that there are no senior mods to approve their requests. There will also be times that those four new mods will seek approval from only one senior mod because he is the only one available during a specific time span. I know because that senior mod is me and I am on them for 6 hours for almost everyday before I took my latest vacation. So it's obvious that we can't simply add a bunch of new mods right now just for the sake of having more coverage. Our low efficiency and effectiveness will further drop as a result.

Now here comes how we handle recruitment. From what I've read so far, I'm going to assume that you guys think that Kineta is the only one handling the recruitment. Kineta has the final decision, but anyone in the team has all the right to give their own thoughts about a specific candidate. You can say that the recruitment depends on the team's consensus. Now, you might start to think that favoritism is present. That's not true and in fact, we want more mods to join the team. We can't be picky. If you showed potential and willingness to do a thankless job, even if you're a so-so at this point, we'll be happy to get you. And it doesn't matter if you have a ban record. A few from our team had been banned at least once. Your past transgression will be taken into consideration, yes, but what's more important is what you are right now.

So while I agree to what this thread was all about initially, I'm gonna say no for now. Once we got enough senior mods to handle a bunch of trainees, then I'll consider this idea once again. For now, we'll find new candidates as always.

But that's not to say there's no way for me to change my mind. Oddly enough, I think I should say to feel free to argue with me. I'll check this thread from time to time.
Dec 29, 2015 7:32 AM

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5831
julyan said:
Anything else should be first reviewed and approved by a senior mod (me, Tyrel, rodac etc) before they execute it.

Oh right, you guys are senior mods now. That went by fast.
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