Evildragon16 said: Market English is one of the easiest languages to learn to that level. English has by far the largest vocabulary of any language which makes it harder to master as a second language than other languages.zombie_pegasus said: Modern words like computer terms are typically standardized to male, but even then there are a few exceptions. Irrelevance is common in language. I used to think English was easy since I grew up with it .When I started learning french and saw that the madness in it was just as bad I was shocked . Personally I think English should be counted as one of the harder languages . The French word "dessin", the Spanish word "deis" and the Japanese word "desu" can all be pronounced the same way. I would spell it out in English as "dace". I think tonal languages would be the hardest to learn. |
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zombie_pegasus said: Just use "generic He" for Persons. It's a practicable, traditional Way to refer to someone whose biological Sex is unknown.I think English should really have a gender neutral third person pronoun. Using the plural "they" for a single human that you don't know the gender of sounds awkward. Calling an animal "it" sounds rude in my opinion especially if you know the gender of the animal. It also feels bad to call someone "he" or "she" and guess the wrong gender. As if an Animal would complain whether I use "das Huhn" (neuter) (the Hen) or "die "Henne" (female) (the Hen) to it. Again, how often do you directly call someone with "he" or "she"? I would use "you" to refer to someone when speaking with him (generic He), but what about you? |
zombie_pegasus said: I use singular they all the time. English also lacks plural "you" except for "y'all" and "yous". Also its lacking in "us", "we", and "ours"that differentiate if it includes the person youre speaking to or not.Noboru said: I think English should really have a gender neutral third person pronoun. Using the plural "they" for a single human that you don't know the gender of sounds awkward. Calling an animal "it" sounds rude in my opinion especially if you know the gender of the animal. It also feels bad to call someone "he" or "she" and guess the wrong gender.I meant the Gender "Neutrum" (Neuter): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender#Overview ("it" and "its" in English) Noboru capitalizes his nouns even when writing in English BTW. Noboru said: But there is a generic "she"as well in some cases and genderic "he" sets up assumptions that a person must be male by default which could lead to problems in falsifying memories for crimes for instance. Just use "generic He" for Persons. It's a practicable, traditional Way to refer to someone whose biological Sex is unknown. As if an Animal would complain whether I use "das Huhn" (neuter) (the Hen) or "die "Henne" (female) (the Hen) to it. Again, how often do you directly call someone with "he" or "she"? I would use "you" to refer to someone when speaking with him (generic He), but what about you? |
traedNov 16, 2015 1:30 PM
traed said: There isn't anything you can't specify like "both of us (and ...), we..." or "me and the others, we..." or "you two/three...".English also lacks plural "you" except for "y'all" and "yous". Also its lacking in "us", "we", and "ours"that differentiate if it includes the person youre speaking to or not. |
Noboru said: That gets a bit awkward for casual conversation otherwise people would do it. Hardly anyone does it except in writing.traed said: There isn't anything you can't specify like "both of us (and ...), we..." or "me and the others, we..." or "you two/three...".English also lacks plural "you" except for "y'all" and "yous". Also its lacking in "us", "we", and "ours"that differentiate if it includes the person youre speaking to or not. |
Noboru said: "You" is gender neutral. "He" and "she" are third person pronouns meaning that they are used to refer to people who you are not directly talking to. Most people don't use the generic "he" and will get offended if you call their female friend "he".zombie_pegasus said: Just use "generic He" for Persons. It's a practicable, traditional Way to refer to someone whose biological Sex is unknown.I think English should really have a gender neutral third person pronoun. Using the plural "they" for a single human that you don't know the gender of sounds awkward. Calling an animal "it" sounds rude in my opinion especially if you know the gender of the animal. It also feels bad to call someone "he" or "she" and guess the wrong gender. As if an Animal would complain whether I use "das Huhn" (neuter) (the Hen) or "die "Henne" (female) (the Hen) to it. Again, how often do you directly call someone with "he" or "she"? I would use "you" to refer to someone when speaking with him (generic He), but what about you? |
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traed said: Normally, such Things are clear from the Context. If something's unclear, you can still specify it afterwards.Noboru said: That gets a bit awkward for casual conversation otherwise people would do it. Hardly anyone does it except in writing.There isn't anything you can't specify like "both of us (and ...), we..." or "me and the others, we..." or "you two/three...". zombie_pegasus said: Yes, and "you" is the Form you use when you address someone. How often do you talk with People about People you don't know about his or her Sex where your Conversation Partner knows about it?"You" is gender neutral. "He" and "she" are third person pronouns meaning that they are used to refer to people who you are not directly talking to. Most people don't use the generic "he" and will get offended if you call their female friend "he". |
Noboru said: Not too often, but it does happen sometimes. Usually I just call them "they" until the other person refers to them as either "he" or "she". Sometimes it can feel even weirder when you know their name but it's a gender neutral name.zombie_pegasus said: Yes, and "you" is the Form you use when you address someone. How often do you talk with People about People you don't know about his or her Sex where your Conversation Partner knows about it?"You" is gender neutral. "He" and "she" are third person pronouns meaning that they are used to refer to people who you are not directly talking to. Most people don't use the generic "he" and will get offended if you call their female friend "he". |
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| Well that happens a lot though. Misunderstandings happen that way. Does hair have a gender in any gendered language? That would get confusing. |
traed said: In French and Spanish it's male. It also sounds a lot like the word for "horse" in both of those languages.Well that happens a lot though. Misunderstandings happen that way. Does hair have a gender in any gendered language? That would get confusing. |
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zombie_pegasus said: Just use what you feel most comfortable with. If someone felt extremely offended over some slight Thing like accidentally referring to a Person whose Sex or even worse "Gender" I don't know with the wrong Pronouns, then I'd immediately say goodbye to him.Not too often, but it does happen sometimes. Usually I just call them "they" until the other person refers to them as either "he" or "she". Sometimes it can feel even weirder when you know their name but it's a gender neutral name. traed said: Neuter in German, but that's usually male in Languages with two Genders.Does hair have a gender in any gendered language? |
NoboruJan 16, 2016 1:01 PM
zombie_pegasus said: Noboru said: I think English should really have a gender neutral third person pronoun. Using the plural "they" for a single human that you don't know the gender of sounds awkward. Calling an animal "it" sounds rude in my opinion especially if you know the gender of the animal. It also feels bad to call someone "he" or "she" and guess the wrong gender.I meant the Gender "Neutrum" (Neuter): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender#Overview ("it" and "its" in English) I agree about referring to animals as 'it'. I'm not much with animal rights but animals have gender and are not an object. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: I would use the respective Form (f.i.: Tomcat for a male Cat or just Cat for a female Cat) and refer to it as a he or she, but if it's about the Animal "Cat" and I don't even know the Name or can't match it with its biological Sex, I use "it" in English and the respective, grammatical Gender in German.I agree about referring to animals as 'it'. I'm not much with animal rights but animals have gender and are not an object. |
Noboru said: TheBrainintheJar said: I would use the respective Form (f.i.: Tomcat for a male Cat or just Cat for a female Cat) and refer to it as a he or she, but if it's about the Animal "Cat" and I don't even know the Name or can't match it with its biological Sex, I use "it" in English and the respective, grammatical Gender in German.I agree about referring to animals as 'it'. I'm not much with animal rights but animals have gender and are not an object. Sounds reasonable. This should be added to textbooks. |
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| We have that in Serbian. The ending letter will always imply what gender the object is. We have masculine, feminine and neuter. Their existance is justified because they're needed when the words change with cases, although some words can be of multiple genders because the ending letter which signifies the gender can be changed at will and will still make sense, it's just a matter of preference. |
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| I see no real advantage to gendering objects. I think it would be more useful to identify the object as liquid, solid, or gas in the word. Maybe identify an object as food or non food. That way even if its something someone has never heard of they have a vague idea what it is. |
TheBrainintheJar said: This is just traditional Grammar. Sounds reasonable. This should be added to textbooks. Nuvviveji said: It doesn't work that well with German, but it's a similar Principle. We have that in Serbian. The ending letter will always imply what gender the object is. In our Language it's used to distinguish Homonyms like "der Tau" (male) = "Dew" and "das Tau" (neuter) = "Rope", analogous to "das Seil" (meaning the same Thing). What Genders do the Words "Sun", "Moon" and "Bridge" have btw.? DejWo said: How many and which one is "Sun", "Moon" and "Bridge" respectively?In my mothertongue,Slovak,they do. traed said: While that Approach would bring Practicability in the Usage, it would trade off the Beauty and Soul of a Language for it.I see no real advantage to gendering objects. I think it would be more useful to identify the object as liquid, solid, or gas in the word. Maybe identify an object as food or non food. That way even if its something someone has never heard of they have a vague idea what it is. Keeping the Gender keeps the emotional Attachment to the Words like neuter Terms can be more often than not cute little Things when a Diminutive is used, female Terms can have their Elegance and male Terms their reassuring and soothing Intonation. |
| in Portuguese, Sun is a "he" each noun is assigned either a female or male article o/um "male article", a/uma "female article" ex: o sol "the sun", a casa "the house", um carro "a car", uma fazenda "a farm", etc. |
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DejWo said: Thanks, that's interesting, because it's mostly Germanic Languages that have Sun as "she", while Romance Languages and Welsh seems to have "he". The Gender in the Slovac Language fits exactly the Gender of the Proto-Indo-European Word.Noboru said: How many and which one is "Sun", "Moon" and "Bridge" respectively? Sun is "it",in-between. Both Moon and Bridge are male nouns. So Sun has its very, very original Gender, Moon has it like the Germanic Ending and Bridge like the Romance one? Just a few follow-up Questions, if you don't mind: 1): what's your very first Impression when you hear "the Sun" in your native Tongue? 2): same Question as above, but with "the Moon" 3): same Question as above, but with "the Bridge"? This is what comes to Mind for me first: |
Noboru said: Then why not just something to identify growing and moving objects? It would be applied to plants, animals, vehicles, clouds, ocean waves, rain, the planets and stars. It would be an indicator of a type of life without having to gender it and it would be fairly consistent in usage. It would still have similar effect.traed said: While that Approach would bring Practicability in the Usage, it would trade off the Beauty and Soul of a Language for it.I see no real advantage to gendering objects. I think it would be more useful to identify the object as liquid, solid, or gas in the word. Maybe identify an object as food or non food. That way even if its something someone has never heard of they have a vague idea what it is. Keeping the Gender keeps the emotional Attachment to the Words like neuter Terms can be more often than not cute little Things when a Diminutive is used, female Terms can have their Elegance and male Terms their reassuring and soothing Intonation. |
traed said: That's what Cases are for. Moving is mostly with "Accusative" (direct Object) in German, e.g.: auf die Toilette => to the Toilet and indicating the Place (Locus) auf der Toilette => on the Pot in "Dative" Case (indirect Object).Then why not just something to identify growing and moving objects? It would be applied to plants, animals, vehicles, clouds, ocean waves, rain, the planets and stars. It would be an indicator of a type of life without having to gender it and it would be fairly consistent in usage. It would still have similar effect. I think I've read about some Languages that divide Objects in animated and inanimated ones, but I can't recall it right now. But then you couldn't impersonate an Object as a normal Person as easily as it would be with a designated, grammatical Gender. |
| Not necessarily. Personification is used in English all the time even though its not really a gendered language too much. People call an object "he"or "she" on their personal preference instead of grammatical rules. |
| They can, but it feels fake. |
DateYutaka said: There are more Languages with Genders than without.in a few languages it they do |
Nuvviveji said: We have that in Serbian. The ending letter will always imply what gender the object is. Noboru said: It doesn't work that well with German, but it's a similar Principle. In our Language it's used to distinguish Homonyms like "der Tau" (male) = "Dew" and "das Tau" (neuter) = "Rope", analogous to "das Seil" (meaning the same Thing). What Genders do the Words "Sun", "Moon" and "Bridge" have btw.? Sunce, to sunce. It's neuter. Mesec, taj mesec. It's masculine. Most, taj most. It's masculine. Basically if the word ends in a consonant it's masculine. If it end with the vowel 'e','o' it's neuter. If it ends with the vowel 'a' it's feminine. This is for singular, different rules apply for plural forms. EDIT: Also forgot to mention: In singular 'to' goes before a neuter world, 'ta' goes before a feminine word and 'taj' goes before a masculine word. As for plural 'ti' is for masculine, 'te' is for feminine and 'ta' is for neuter. |
UltvejNov 17, 2015 2:36 PM
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Nuvviveji said: Thanks, it's the same as with the Slovak Language, then, so I guess that the Slavic Languages have the same Genders for the same Things at least for those three Examples.Sunce, to sunce. It's neuter. Mesec, taj mesec. It's masculine. Most, taj most. It's masculine. Basically if the word ends in a consonant it's masculine. If it end with the vowel 'e','o' it's neuter. If it ends with the vowel 'a' it's feminine. This is for singular, different rules apply for plural forms. If you don't mind, what's the very first Association you have when you read or hear "(to) Sunce", "(taj) Mesec" and "(taj) Most" ? |
Noboru said: Why would it feel fake when they give it to an object they love rather than just all objects?They can, but it feels fake. |
| Gendered objects have always come across as weird to me, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it stupid. Although they do make learning some languages a bother. Hell, Finnish doesn't have gender-specific pronouns for people either: "hän" suffices for both of them. And even then it's rather common (albeit very informal) to just refer others (in third person) with our equivalent of it, "se". |
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Noboru said: I don't know....'Sun' reminds me of being awake, 'Moon' of being asleep as for 'Bridge' it reminds me of having only one choice.Nuvviveji said: Thanks, it's the same as with the Slovak Language, then, so I guess that the Slavic Languages have the same Genders for the same Things at least for those three Examples.Sunce, to sunce. It's neuter. Mesec, taj mesec. It's masculine. Most, taj most. It's masculine. Basically if the word ends in a consonant it's masculine. If it end with the vowel 'e','o' it's neuter. If it ends with the vowel 'a' it's feminine. This is for singular, different rules apply for plural forms. If you don't mind, what's the very first Association you have when you read or hear "(to) Sunce", "(taj) Mesec" and "(taj) Most" ? |
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| Isn't it like that for german and french? |
| Brace yourself. Soon as LotGH 2017 comes out. The anime community is going to become so cancerous you will need to take cover and hide. |
Kousoku11 said: Finnish is both gender neutral and genderless as far as I know. Gendered objects have always come across as weird to me, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it stupid. Although they do make learning some languages a bother. Hell, Finnish doesn't have gender-specific pronouns for people either: "hän" suffices for both of them. And even then it's rather common (albeit very informal) to just refer others (in third person) with our equivalent of it, "se". Is something like boyfriend and girlfriend or husband and wife gender neutral as well? |
| We need to stop objectifying female objects. |
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| Are dildos masculine or feminine in gendered languages? lol |
| Dildo is masculine in Serbian .-. |
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traed said: Nah. Nouns like that can be gender-specific as much as in English.Is something like boyfriend and girlfriend or husband and wife gender neutral as well? Related to that though, we do have a suffix -tar/tär which is basically English's -ess. It's not used nowadays when applicable due to gender equality reasons (I think), but ends up being necessary in some cases. It can also come off as kind of oldish imo. EDIT: Going to contribute to this one as well while I'm at it, even if it's a bit of a tangent. TheBrainintheJar said: Twists like that don't mesh well with Finnish for an exact opposite reason: genders are easy to hide, but at the same time it's harder to actually reveal the gender. Whenever those kinds of reveals get translated they more often than not come off as very clunky.The gender-hiding is useful in literature. I once wrote a short story whose main character's gender is not known until midway through. You couldn't do it in Hebrew. |
Kousoku11Nov 17, 2015 4:14 PM
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TheBrainintheJar said: The gender-hiding is useful in literature. I once wrote a short story whose main character's gender is not known until midway through. You couldn't do it in Hebrew. Actually, you could do a similar thing in Russian, but it would be painful - past verbs demand gender. Each language has its specifics. I read a short story by a popular Russian author, which read like a love story, but it actually was about a cat, as it turns out in the last sentence. Wouldn't be that easy in English, cause cats are called "it" normally, in Russia the cat is female. But I get what you're saying, I also find it relaxing about English sometimes. [quote=Noboru] traed said: Does hair have a gender in any gendered language?[/spoiler]Neuter in German, but that's usually male in Languages with two Genders. Yep, male in Russian. |
deadoptimistNov 17, 2015 4:09 PM
worldeditor11 said: My computer is a she. I just know it. Same, the hole is just difficult to spot. |
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Noboru said: Thanks, it's the same as with the Slovak Language, then, so I guess that the Slavic Languages have the same Genders for the same Things at least for those three Examples. If you don't mind, what's the very first Association you have when you read or hear "(to) Sunce", "(taj) Mesec" and "(taj) Most" ? Yeah, in Russian similarly: солнце (sun) /sonce/, neuter. луна (moon) /luna/, female. месяц (moon) /m'es'ac/, male. мост (bridge) /most/, male. /c/ is not an /s/, but a combination, like /ts/ We have two words for the moon. "Luna" is the most used name, "m'es'ac" is for crescent moon, also poetic (the same word as month, btw). |
Red_Keys said: We need to stop objectifying female objects. ^ this tbh. Forget the male ones though. Those don't matter. |
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Ravioli_Ravioli said: Quite so. Better only to have the neuter ones so you can have more freedom of expression as a fluid.Red_Keys said: We need to stop objectifying female objects. ^ this tbh. Forget the male ones though. Those don't matter. |
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| I wonder if some countries have gender specific diets. Like someone will only eat male or female foods. |
| Languages other than Hebrew have feminine/masculine objects. I love it. It's comforting to know that my guitar is a girl. |
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Dimethylanime said: Can I touch your girl?Languages other than Hebrew have feminine/masculine objects. I love it. It's comforting to know that my guitar is a girl. |
| It gives objectophilia more sense. Evildragon16 said: Currently learning french .Yup it's damn annoying how object have 'Le' or 'La' tied to them .Worse still is that there isn't a set system for deciding which is which . Here i found a tutorial to help you with that. |
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| WTF vagina is male? ... well at least pussy is female, une chatte |
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