New
Oct 20, 2015 2:16 PM
#101
I forgot to mention this earlier. This is an older idea Ive thrown out but in the past I've considered the concept of the universe being created normally in the scientific sense, then people evolved, then people created the concept of the creator (god), then the creator not being bound by rules of time created the universe. |
Oct 20, 2015 2:18 PM
#102
ive also come to the conclusion that evolution is a means for creation |
Oct 20, 2015 2:21 PM
#103
Otoshiro said: I was responding to the comment that zinith isn't perfect. It's implying again that because god is a "just" judge you will be punished eternally for sins. "Sins", not crimes.Mr_Mantis said: RedRoseFring said: Zivith said: I don't believe in God and I never will. Even if he does exist, I will not believe in a "benevolent" entity that lets millions suffer and criminals to escape without paying the price, or letting people die unnecessarily. You might want to think twice about such a proposition, unless you are somehow perfect. If not, said entity would also have to punish you for every single crime you commit. I'd imagine it wouldn't be long before you started wishing for an indifferent entity in that case, but alas, such is human hypocrisy. Why do you think sins need punishment? That sounds insane. With this logic, murderers and thieves should be vindicated for all of their heinous actions. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
Oct 20, 2015 2:29 PM
#104
Daconator said: This is why I find your question towards atheists meaningless. The question can only make sense subsequently to a belief in god, in order for god to provoke evolution god ought to exist. Therefore when addressing atheists, it really falls down to a masquerade, whereas the part on evolution is an unnecessary appendix - the question is in fact, does god exist? However, it’s answered negatively by atheists per definition. It's actually a very thoughtful question. The question(which I have made clear in numerous replies-I wish you would have read them) Is that when an Athiest becomes an atheist, or an atheist who has reasons(obviously there are reasons we(people) are atheists) for not believing in god. I don't believe in a god, but I myself, in my own conclusion, have wondered why couldn't god have used evolution to create humans? I dismissed it, but it is something to think about(to me) and mildly interesting. It's simply a question for both sides to consider. I don't at all think it a question that would change anyone's belief, least of all my own. I understand what an atheist is; I am one. |
Oct 20, 2015 2:31 PM
#105
The problem with this notion of possibility is, it cannot act as evidence of the existence of god itself. I see it just like a case of a hammer fell on the head of a criminal, and then asked did god made the hammer fell? did god created gravity? did god inspire human to create a tool called hammer? The result is clear, the criminal is got hit by a hammer. The hammer fell because of gravity. And human did invented hammer as a tool that we used for millennia. But is the whole process is actually orchestrated or inspired by divines? and what means can we use to tell for sure that it is? The problem actually arose because of the accepted main premise that god is, as Aquinas would said - the first cause. So when we are facing question about a causality and an omnipotent actor, people tends to biased to first accept the actor as an axiom, because an act cannot happens without an actor. I think it is an erroneous way of thinking. Not trying to argument on god existence in itself, but rather on the case of 'A possibly caused B', we tend to focus on attribution of A rather than the whole sentence and it's antithesis, especially if we already set to think that A causes everything. I am agnostic theist btw, I turned into one exactly because people keep attributing god to everything and anything to suit their bias, then I think of the possibility of the existence of god that is untainted with interpretations, but that in itself is a fallacy, because by me trying to prove or disprove the existence of god, I am making an interpretation by itself. Therefore I rest myself to believe that the nature of proving god existence or interpreting it is impossible, however I do still believe there is a possibility of a god, but an existence that is misunderstood, abused, and unknown. |
azzuReOct 20, 2015 2:40 PM
The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
Oct 20, 2015 2:43 PM
#106
Daconator said: The majority of atheists are agnostic atheists. Contemplating a possibility is not in contradiction to that.This is why I find your question towards atheists meaningless. The question can only make sense subsequently to a belief in god, in order for god to provoke evolution god ought to exist. Therefore when addressing atheists, it really falls down to a masquerade, whereas the part on evolution is an unecessary appendix - the question is in fact, does god exist? However, it’s answered negatively by atheists per definition. |
Oct 20, 2015 2:56 PM
#107
khunter said: would it be possible to accept that God used evolution to create humans? Only going to address this part of the question as it is the only part of your question that makes any sense.. Anyway, this position is already pretty popular among theists. I think it's labeled as "theistic evolution." Governing bodies of mainstream religions have rejected evolution for the longest time but evidence in support of evolution has become so overwhelming that in some cases it has forced them to adjust their views (the Roman Catholic Church comes to mind here). Most theists who accept the mixing of religion and science view religious text as being allegorical. |
Oct 20, 2015 3:19 PM
#108
Daconator said: khunter said: Daconator said: This is why I find your question towards atheists meaningless. The question can only make sense subsequently to a belief in god, in order for god to provoke evolution god ought to exist. Therefore when addressing atheists, it really falls down to a masquerade, whereas the part on evolution is an unnecessary appendix - the question is in fact, does god exist? However, it’s answered negatively by atheists per definition. It's actually a very thoughtful question. The question(which I have made clear in numerous replies-I wish you would have read them) Is that when an Athiest becomes an atheist, or an atheist who has reasons(obviously there are reasons we(people) are atheists) for not believing in god. I don't believe in a god, but I myself, in my own conclusion, have wondered why couldn't god have used evolution to create humans? I dismissed it, but it is something to think about(to me) and mildly interesting. It's simply a question for both sides to consider. I don't at all think it a question that would change anyone's belief, least of all my own. I understand what an atheist is; I am one. As I said, that question why couldn't god have used evolution to create humans? is absolutely meaningless when restrictly addressed to atheists. To no surprise you dismissed it, there is no why without a who. It's thoughtless and I hope to have done enough explaining why in my previous post. Continuing will only result in different forms of pointless repetition. Edit, double post: traed said: Daconator said: This is why I find your question towards atheists meaningless. The question can only make sense subsequently to a belief in god, in order for god to provoke evolution god ought to exist. Therefore when addressing atheists, it really falls down to a masquerade, whereas the part on evolution is an unecessary appendix - the question is in fact, does god exist? However, it’s answered negatively by atheists per definition. The contemplation of said possibility is given a priori by the respective belief, in this case atheists. I didn't mention any contradiction, just the absence of value or meaning in the question. The question itself is absolutely fine. It's only a hypothetical. Every freaking hypothetical is useless isn't? I'm not so much as asking Atheists if god used evolution to create humans, but only as to why they do not accept a god that could have. I'm interested here, in WHY people are atheists, and the other question, I'm interested in WHY the religious not use evolution to rationalize scientific evidence while not compromising their faith. If you don't see that, then fine, but I personally cannot think that my question, either one, is meaningless as just a hypothetical(as I said, they are all meaningless anyway) I am interested in the reasoning behind atheists. |
Oct 20, 2015 3:20 PM
#109
[quote=ghstindashamploo] khunter said: would it be possible to accept that God used evolution to create humans? Only going to address this part of the question as it is the only part of your question that makes any sense.. It's like people don't read..it makes perfect sense, see above comment. |
Oct 20, 2015 5:31 PM
#110
It would make no sense for God to set the painful process of evolution in motion when he can do anything, but then, no one said God had to make sense. Yahweh or Allah categorically could not have used evolution though. |
Oct 22, 2015 5:06 AM
#111
khunter said: In the bible, it said god created man, no? Though I suppose that might be up for interpretation. Yes, and yes. |
Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
Oct 22, 2015 5:08 AM
#112
Altairius said: It would make no sense for God to set the painful process of evolution in motion when he can do anything, but then, no one said God had to make sense. I don't understand =/= it makes no sense Altairius said: Yahweh or Allah categorically could not have used evolution though. Christianity =/= creationism |
Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
Oct 22, 2015 5:57 AM
#113
khunter said: Atheists(as a general term I will use for this question) is the idea that God could have used evolution to create humans an impossible one to you? Could you theoretically accept this possibility for the sake of argument but still reject god as existing? & if not, why do yo not accept this as any possibility? The idea of a god is purely based on fantasy/imagination until proven otherwise. Not saying it's 100% impossible, there is just no reason whatsoever for me to believe that a god exists. |
Oct 22, 2015 6:10 AM
#114
Milennin said: khunter said: Atheists(as a general term I will use for this question) is the idea that God could have used evolution to create humans an impossible one to you? Could you theoretically accept this possibility for the sake of argument but still reject god as existing? & if not, why do yo not accept this as any possibility? The idea of a god is purely based on fantasy/imagination until proven otherwise. Not saying it's 100% impossible, there is just no reason whatsoever for me to believe that a god exists. Do you have any proof that the evolution really happened? Do you have any proof that God doesn't exist? It's just 50/50 like a gamble lel |
Oct 22, 2015 6:37 AM
#115
Anti-Illuminatus said: Sorry, I was just being sarcastic. And please don't call be bro, that's weird. I don't think that what happened with eve and adam is incest. They were created by God, we say that "we" "are" "the" "children" "of" "God" ok, you just say that. However, that doesn't relate in any way to incest. I know plenty of pretty nonreligious fuckers who believe in both God and evolution. Like, humanity isn't necessarily God's primary child, y'know. All animals and plants can be his equal children, and humans are just the fucked up misfits that came out of apes. mafia_princess said: ...they're both God's children is what he's sayin, bro.Wait what? Incest? Whats that got to do with anything? Why are you comparing this to that? traed said: Why make myself believe that? I just missed a few points, but you can't deny that what I said relates somehow to it. Is that the bible? Um I don't know. "He shall rule over you" Does this have another context meaning? If not, then I don't know what to say.mafia_princess said: No clue what you had to do to make yourself believe that. The whole point was to show that love mates are meant to help and protect each other. To depend on each other and climb their way through life's obstacles and be happy together. That meaning is deep. But some plebs here assume it's an offense if you're 1st or 2nd, I don't even... Who came first the egg or the chicken? To the woman he said, I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you. Genesis 3:16 |
Oct 22, 2015 6:37 AM
#116
Azertity said: Milennin said: khunter said: Atheists(as a general term I will use for this question) is the idea that God could have used evolution to create humans an impossible one to you? Could you theoretically accept this possibility for the sake of argument but still reject god as existing? & if not, why do yo not accept this as any possibility? The idea of a god is purely based on fantasy/imagination until proven otherwise. Not saying it's 100% impossible, there is just no reason whatsoever for me to believe that a god exists. Do you have any proof that the evolution really happened? Do you have any proof that God doesn't exist? It's just 50/50 like a gamble lel There's more proof and scientific evidence supporting evolution then there is for a ridiculous, religious fallacy. Obviously I'm an atheist and usually I try not to dabble in conversations like this as I generally and honestly don't really give a fuck what people believe. If believing in a god makes you a better person, living life to the fullest etc.. then that's great! But then you get the other idiots, some seriously deluded people who seriously believe that some magic man created the earth in 6 days or however long is was supposed to be, that someone is watching over us constantly and, ultimately, when we die, chooses our fate in. Will we spend eternity in heaven or will we burn in hell. One thing I have learned is that no matter how much logical evidence there is against the existence of a god, the religious will always dismiss it as nonsense. You can't argue logic with a 100% Christian. I've heard some seriously religious adults tell their children that if they don't behave, if they don't thank the lord, prayer, honour the commandments blah blah blah, they will go to hell. That, in my book, is mental child abuse and it's just plain wrong. Simply put an atheist see's god as nothing more than fictitious nonsense. And it is an absolute mystery to us as to how some people can seriously entertain the possibility of a superior being, watching over us etc...especially when so much shit happens in this world. But because we can't PROVE that, religious people refuse to listen (and I have a feeling if it could be proved they still wouldn't believe it). Kind of in the same way we can't scientifically prove that unicorns don't exist, but we all know they fucking don't. |
Oct 22, 2015 6:40 AM
#117
Azertity said: You cant prove a negative. Its not 50/50. The actual probability is not really known but from out of what we do know its highly improbable as far as being a necessity goes.Do you have any proof that the evolution really happened? Do you have any proof that God doesn't exist? It's just 50/50 like a gamble lel |
Oct 22, 2015 6:42 AM
#118
i'm still questioning the existence of god, so i guess i'm an agnostic... |
Oct 22, 2015 6:58 AM
#119
mafia_princess said: Sorry if I may have said it in a somewhat rude way. The context is God is telling Eve that is her punishment for eating from the tree and he's referring to Adam to rule over her.Why make myself believe that? I just missed a few points, but you can't deny that what I said relates somehow to it. Is that the bible? Um I don't know. "He shall rule over you" Does this have another context meaning? If not, then I don't know what to say. |
Oct 22, 2015 7:12 AM
#120
traed said: Oh, I guess I understood it in an another way. Sorry.. The thing is that I'm not a christian so currently I'm not really educated about this or about the story behind the readings. Screw that, I went overboard with my analysis. "Rule" is not a really right thing to do to a human being.mafia_princess said: Sorry if I may have said it in a somewhat rude way. The context is God is telling Eve that is her punishment for eating from the tree and he's referring to Adam to rule over her.Why make myself believe that? I just missed a few points, but you can't deny that what I said relates somehow to it. Is that the bible? Um I don't know. He shall rule over you Does this have another context meaning? If not, then I don't know what to say. |
Oct 22, 2015 7:20 AM
#121
Azertity said: Do you have any proof that the evolution really happened? Scientific research with evidence supporting evolution is everywhere. Azertity said: Do you have any proof that God doesn't exist? That's the most stupid argument for the believe in anything, and holds 0% value as a standpoint. Azertity said: It's just 50/50 like a gamble lel Not really. One is based on research and studies by scientists over the course of many years, while the other is based on a "if you can't prove it to be fake, then it must be real!" |
Oct 22, 2015 7:22 AM
#122
There's more proof and scientific evidence supporting evolution then there is for a ridiculous, religious fallacy. Obviously I'm an atheist and usually I try not to dabble in conversations like this as I generally and honestly don't really give a fuck what people believe. If believing in a god makes you a better person, living life to the fullest etc.. then that's great! But then you get the other idiots, some seriously deluded people who seriously believe that some magic man created the earth in 6 days or however long is was supposed to be, that someone is watching over us constantly and, ultimately, when we die, chooses our fate in. Will we spend eternity in heaven or will we burn in hell. One thing I have learned is that no matter how much logical evidence there is against the existence of a god, the religious will always dismiss it as nonsense. You can't argue logic with a 100% Christian. I've heard some seriously religious adults tell their children that if they don't behave, if they don't thank the lord, prayer, honour the commandments blah blah blah, they will go to hell. That, in my book, is mental child abuse and it's just plain wrong. Simply put an atheist see's god as nothing more than fictitious nonsense. And it is an absolute mystery to us as to how some people can seriously entertain the possibility of a superior being, watching over us etc...especially when so much shit happens in this world. But because we can't PROVE that, religious people refuse to listen (and I have a feeling if it could be proved they still wouldn't believe it). Kind of in the same way we can't scientifically prove that unicorns don't exist, but we all know they fucking don't. If, telling kids to obey the rules 'no murder, no drinking, behave etc.' is wrong in your eyes... Then I really don't understand atheists, if there is a rule that goes by: "don't kill anyone" then why ignore it? I mean you're being 'brain washed' as a child (which isn't actually a brainwash, cuz they're telling you something in a good perspective) so you can't 'kill' anyone, why do atheists just ignore that fact? Use the religion in a good way, use the brainwash in a good way. |
Oct 22, 2015 7:24 AM
#123
I'm a Catholic but I don't believe in every single word the bible says. I mean people wrote this book. People that were supposed to be under the Holy Spirit's guidance. We believe that Pope Francis is under the Holy Spirit's guidance but is he perfect? No. No one is (except God) so maybe there're bits and pieces written in it that wasn't really God's intention? Maybe? Also let's not forget that the bible was written in an old archaic language and we know for a fact that some words/phrases are hard or impossible to translate to other language. So maybe God did create humans through evolution? Also I kinda remember Pope Francis saying "God created the world. Science tells us how" I'm not too sure though. |
Oct 22, 2015 7:25 AM
#124
Milennin said: Azertity said: Do you have any proof that the evolution really happened? Scientific research with evidence supporting evolution is everywhere. Azertity said: Do you have any proof that God doesn't exist? That's the most stupid argument for the believe in anything, and holds 0% value as a standpoint. Azertity said: It's just 50/50 like a gamble lel Not really. One is based on research and studies by scientists over the course of many years, while the other is based on a "if you can't prove it to be fake, then it must be real!" You call me stupid but you believe what others say Well played sir, well played.. You're not gonna tell me here that you believe in 'big bang theory' because someone (maybe who hated religion) once said "Yup! There is an evolution! There is no god, here some evidence". Sir? Where the heck is your evidence? You went back billions of years in to the past and saw how the magical 'big bang theory' happened? In my eyes, nonsense. If you're gonna believe everything they tell you, then you can't call me stupid. |
Oct 22, 2015 7:31 AM
#125
Azertity said: If you're gonna believe everything they tell you, then you can't call me stupid. Can you quote me on where I said I believe everything they tell me, because I'm sure I never actually did say that. All I have to say on this is that I have no reason whatsoever to believe in a god. |
Oct 22, 2015 7:36 AM
#126
I'm a proud Muslim, but I DO believe in science too. No one in the Islam said, don't believe in science. I'm not brainwashed, I do not brainwash people. You can think what you want, you can believe in what ever you want. You're you, I'm me. But let's put that aside. I will tell you a funny fact since we both believe in science, right? Did you know that the Kaaba (or Ka'aba, It is considered the "House of God" and has a similar role as the Tabernacle and Holy of Holies in Judaism and Christianity.) is EXACTLY located at the center of the earth? Coincidence? Nah I don't think so. I do have proof, yes. But I'm not gonna post it here because I know there will be guys out there who are gonna say that I'm trying to brainwash you guys. (If you're really curious just search for it) Anyways, what I'm trying to tell you guys is, that Religion and science can be merged together! Let's just live in peace, cuz the earth belongs to everyone <3 |
Oct 22, 2015 7:40 AM
#127
Milennin said: Azertity said: If you're gonna believe everything they tell you, then you can't call me stupid. Can you quote me on where I said I believe everything they tell me, because I'm sure I never actually did say that. All I have to say on this is that I have no reason whatsoever to believe in a god. "Scientific research with evidence supporting evolution is everywhere." "Not really. One is based on research and studies by scientists over the course of many years, while the other is based on a "if you can't prove it to be fake, then it must be real!"" |
Oct 22, 2015 7:42 AM
#128
Azertity, leave this thread while you can, it's better for you. Some atheists will just give you a headache. I've been enough time here to realize how abundant they are. PrimeX said: I agree with this statement. God encourages us to learn and discover new things, you can't just keep living without knowing the physics and chemistry happening around you."God created the world. Science tells us how" I'm not too sure though. |
Oct 22, 2015 7:46 AM
#129
mafia_princess said: Azertity, leave this thread while you can, it's better for you. Some atheists will just give you a headache. I've been enough time here to realize how abundant they are. PrimeX said: I agree with this statement. God encourages us to learn and discover new things, you can't just keep living without knowing the physics and chemistry happening around you."God created the world. Science tells us how" I'm not too sure though. Yeah you're right. "Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by education." |
Oct 22, 2015 7:57 AM
#130
Azertity said: You're making a false argument. Most people dont need to be told not to kill and even if they do religion does not have to be needed to do so. If, telling kids to obey the rules 'no murder, no drinking, behave etc.' is wrong in your eyes... Then I really don't understand atheists, if there is a rule that goes by: "don't kill anyone" then why ignore it? I mean you're being 'brain washed' as a child (which isn't actually a brainwash, cuz they're telling you something in a good perspective) so you can't 'kill' anyone, why do atheists just ignore that fact? Use the religion in a good way, use the brainwash in a good way. |
Oct 22, 2015 8:00 AM
#131
traed said: Azertity said: You're making a false argument. Most people dont need to be told not to kill and even if they do religion does not have to be needed to do so. If, telling kids to obey the rules 'no murder, no drinking, behave etc.' is wrong in your eyes... Then I really don't understand atheists, if there is a rule that goes by: "don't kill anyone" then why ignore it? I mean you're being 'brain washed' as a child (which isn't actually a brainwash, cuz they're telling you something in a good perspective) so you can't 'kill' anyone, why do atheists just ignore that fact? Use the religion in a good way, use the brainwash in a good way. Well proceed? Because yours doesn't sound promising either |
Oct 22, 2015 2:07 PM
#132
PrimeX said: I'm a Catholic but I don't believe in every single word the bible says. I mean people wrote this book. People that were supposed to be under the Holy Spirit's guidance. We believe that Pope Francis is under the Holy Spirit's guidance but is he perfect? No. No one is (except God) so maybe there're bits and pieces written in it that wasn't really God's intention? Maybe? Also let's not forget that the bible was written in an old archaic language and we know for a fact that some words/phrases are hard or impossible to translate to other language. So maybe God did create humans through evolution? Also I kinda remember Pope Francis saying "God created the world. Science tells us how" I'm not too sure though. No one is perfect, but there was one perfect human, which is Jesus. Also the bible is indeed written by humans, but it is inspired by the word of God. (2 timothy 3:16). We are made in God's image so it's not weird to use humans to write a book even if they sinned right? Milennin said: Azertity said: Do you have any proof that the evolution really happened? Scientific research with evidence supporting evolution is everywhere. ... Why don't we start questioning who created evolution in the first place if evolution is indeed real? |
Oct 22, 2015 3:34 PM
#133
Azertity said: There's more proof and scientific evidence supporting evolution then there is for a ridiculous, religious fallacy. Obviously I'm an atheist and usually I try not to dabble in conversations like this as I generally and honestly don't really give a fuck what people believe. If believing in a god makes you a better person, living life to the fullest etc.. then that's great! But then you get the other idiots, some seriously deluded people who seriously believe that some magic man created the earth in 6 days or however long is was supposed to be, that someone is watching over us constantly and, ultimately, when we die, chooses our fate in. Will we spend eternity in heaven or will we burn in hell. One thing I have learned is that no matter how much logical evidence there is against the existence of a god, the religious will always dismiss it as nonsense. You can't argue logic with a 100% Christian. I've heard some seriously religious adults tell their children that if they don't behave, if they don't thank the lord, prayer, honour the commandments blah blah blah, they will go to hell. That, in my book, is mental child abuse and it's just plain wrong. Simply put an atheist see's god as nothing more than fictitious nonsense. And it is an absolute mystery to us as to how some people can seriously entertain the possibility of a superior being, watching over us etc...especially when so much shit happens in this world. But because we can't PROVE that, religious people refuse to listen (and I have a feeling if it could be proved they still wouldn't believe it). Kind of in the same way we can't scientifically prove that unicorns don't exist, but we all know they fucking don't. If, telling kids to obey the rules 'no murder, no drinking, behave etc.' is wrong in your eyes... Then I really don't understand atheists, if there is a rule that goes by: "don't kill anyone" then why ignore it? I mean you're being 'brain washed' as a child (which isn't actually a brainwash, cuz they're telling you something in a good perspective) so you can't 'kill' anyone, why do atheists just ignore that fact? Use the religion in a good way, use the brainwash in a good way. Nope, not what I said. People telling their children that they will "burn in hell" if they don't live their life the way god dictates is what is wrong. Also, if someone needs a God and a bunch of fictious rules to know whether murder is right or wrong then they have more problems that I'm afraid religion won't be able to help them with. |
Oct 22, 2015 3:53 PM
#134
Azertity said: What? I'm saying you presented a belief that someone does not have.traed said: Azertity said: If, telling kids to obey the rules 'no murder, no drinking, behave etc.' is wrong in your eyes... Then I really don't understand atheists, if there is a rule that goes by: "don't kill anyone" then why ignore it? I mean you're being 'brain washed' as a child (which isn't actually a brainwash, cuz they're telling you something in a good perspective) so you can't 'kill' anyone, why do atheists just ignore that fact? Use the religion in a good way, use the brainwash in a good way. Well proceed? Because yours doesn't sound promising either |
Oct 23, 2015 3:26 AM
#135
traed said: geniobastardo said: How would that even fit in with man being made out of dirt? I do know that some scientists theorize the first life may have happened in a clay substance but that is still a pretty big gap between unmentioned in the process.Never had any hard time accepting evolution. Maybe in the beginning but when I read the Quran, it opened a lot of pathways for me. There are quite a few verses in the Quran that do hint something on the lines of evolution but I don't want to go into that. You can say I'm an adherent of 'Spiritual Evolution'. I posted this some time ago. I'll post it again: http://www.allamaiqbal.com/publications/journals/review/apr60/3.htm Iqbal was the man. Itadakiimasu said: We believe women are inferior to men in a sense because of the story of Eve being made from the rib bone of Adam but it also says in the Qura'an to love and to respect with equality towards women because they are your mothers, sisters, wives and daughters among others. I don't know much about evolution in Islam but we follow in the last day (you can google it) and the signs of it (most of them happened). No, we don't believe that. Nowhere in the Quran does it mention that Eve was born out of Adam's rib. However, it does say that Eve was born later - the process isn't mentioned. There are some Ahadith that do say that Eve was a product of Adam's rib bone but they're up for contest. Actually, why do we even need to know how Eve was born? In Islam, the blame of the Original Sin is not on Eve or Adam alone; it's on both or neither. Also, we don't believe that 'women are inferior'. We believe that 'men have an authority over women'; precisely, 'their women'. In other words, wives. That authority makes a man responsible to be the bread winner and the caretaker of his wife. The wife has her responsibilities too but none of those responsibilities force the wife to do a job or to even do the house chores. Basically, Islam only enjoins upon husbands to earn and on wife, to be obedient to her husband (shitstorm incoming). The rest is up for the partners to figure out. Does the wife has the responsibility to obey her husband regardless of the nature of the order? Nope. As long as her husband demands what's within the boundaries of Islam, she should obey. If her husband demands go out of bounds of Islam, she can divorce him if she wants. So, anyone who's familiar with Islam would question now, ''What was the point of, then, enjoining on wives to be obedient?". The answer is: to lay emphasis on it. There are many religious duties that are exclusive to men only but for women, being obedient to their husbands is far better than their participation in the men-exclusive religious obligations. Basically, it's a matter to do with afterlife. |
[i]"Yet each man kills the thing he loves, [/i]By each let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!'' ~Oscar |
Oct 23, 2015 4:56 AM
#136
geniobastardo said: But the Quran says everything was created in six days. A Hadith even name off the days of the week. The fact it mentions day of the week hows it cant be interpreted as anything else but literal. I already know that the word used for days can be interpreted to mean "time period" because I already know that use is not the case when a specific number is assigned to it which makes it always mean days in those cases. The Quran also says the sky was made after earth not before. That and plant life came before the sun which is just wrong because plants need photosynthesis. Also man was created in Paradise not earth. It also says humans are made from clots of blood which is just wrong to how people develop.traed said: geniobastardo said: Never had any hard time accepting evolution. Maybe in the beginning but when I read the Quran, it opened a lot of pathways for me. There are quite a few verses in the Quran that do hint something on the lines of evolution but I don't want to go into that. You can say I'm an adherent of 'Spiritual Evolution'. I posted this some time ago. I'll post it again: http://www.allamaiqbal.com/publications/journals/review/apr60/3.htm Iqbal was the man. |
Oct 23, 2015 5:23 AM
#137
eeasuper said: PrimeX said: I'm a Catholic but I don't believe in every single word the bible says. I mean people wrote this book. People that were supposed to be under the Holy Spirit's guidance. We believe that Pope Francis is under the Holy Spirit's guidance but is he perfect? No. No one is (except God) so maybe there're bits and pieces written in it that wasn't really God's intention? Maybe? Also let's not forget that the bible was written in an old archaic language and we know for a fact that some words/phrases are hard or impossible to translate to other language. So maybe God did create humans through evolution? Also I kinda remember Pope Francis saying "God created the world. Science tells us how" I'm not too sure though. No one is perfect, but there was one perfect human, which is Jesus. Also the bible is indeed written by humans, but it is inspired by the word of God. (2 timothy 3:16). We are made in God's image so it's not weird to use humans to write a book even if they sinned right? Milennin said: Azertity said: Do you have any proof that the evolution really happened? Scientific research with evidence supporting evolution is everywhere. ... Why don't we start questioning who created evolution in the first place if evolution is indeed real? BAM right in the heels m8 |
Oct 23, 2015 5:25 AM
#138
traed said: geniobastardo said: But the Quran says everything was created in six days. A Hadith even name off the days of the week. The fact it mentions day of the week hows it cant be interpreted as anything else but literal. I already know that the word used for days can be interpreted to mean "time period" because I already know that use is not the case when a specific number is assigned to it which makes it always mean days in those cases. The Quran also says the sky was made after earth not before. That and plant life came before the sun which is just wrong because plants need photosynthesis. Also man was created in Paradise not earth. It also says humans are made from clots of blood which is just wrong to how people develop.traed said: geniobastardo said: How would that even fit in with man being made out of dirt? I do know that some scientists theorize the first life may have happened in a clay substance but that is still a pretty big gap between unmentioned in the process.Never had any hard time accepting evolution. Maybe in the beginning but when I read the Quran, it opened a lot of pathways for me. There are quite a few verses in the Quran that do hint something on the lines of evolution but I don't want to go into that. You can say I'm an adherent of 'Spiritual Evolution'. I posted this some time ago. I'll post it again: http://www.allamaiqbal.com/publications/journals/review/apr60/3.htm Iqbal was the man. I don't want to be cocky or something like that, but I guess you have, you have read a (probably from the internet(?)) 'another Quran' |
Oct 23, 2015 5:34 AM
#139
Azertity said: eeasuper said: PrimeX said: I'm a Catholic but I don't believe in every single word the bible says. I mean people wrote this book. People that were supposed to be under the Holy Spirit's guidance. We believe that Pope Francis is under the Holy Spirit's guidance but is he perfect? No. No one is (except God) so maybe there're bits and pieces written in it that wasn't really God's intention? Maybe? Also let's not forget that the bible was written in an old archaic language and we know for a fact that some words/phrases are hard or impossible to translate to other language. So maybe God did create humans through evolution? Also I kinda remember Pope Francis saying "God created the world. Science tells us how" I'm not too sure though. No one is perfect, but there was one perfect human, which is Jesus. Also the bible is indeed written by humans, but it is inspired by the word of God. (2 timothy 3:16). We are made in God's image so it's not weird to use humans to write a book even if they sinned right? Milennin said: Azertity said: Do you have any proof that the evolution really happened? Scientific research with evidence supporting evolution is everywhere. ... Why don't we start questioning who created evolution in the first place if evolution is indeed real? BAM right in the heels m8 Just because there are gaps in the history of the universe that are yet to be explained by science doesn't mean you can just fill them with any religious bullshit to justify your arguments for a god. One of the biggest differences between atheists and anyone religious is that an atheist will quite happily accept the fact they they don't know how the universe was created, It is a question that is yet to be answered. A question that will hopefully one day be answered when there is sufficient evidence that supports one of the many existing theories or perhaps enlightens us to a new one. People who believe in a god however seem to think they have all the right answers despite their horrendous lack of evidence. |
Oct 23, 2015 5:44 AM
#140
RockerRollin said: Azertity said: eeasuper said: PrimeX said: I'm a Catholic but I don't believe in every single word the bible says. I mean people wrote this book. People that were supposed to be under the Holy Spirit's guidance. We believe that Pope Francis is under the Holy Spirit's guidance but is he perfect? No. No one is (except God) so maybe there're bits and pieces written in it that wasn't really God's intention? Maybe? Also let's not forget that the bible was written in an old archaic language and we know for a fact that some words/phrases are hard or impossible to translate to other language. So maybe God did create humans through evolution? Also I kinda remember Pope Francis saying "God created the world. Science tells us how" I'm not too sure though. No one is perfect, but there was one perfect human, which is Jesus. Also the bible is indeed written by humans, but it is inspired by the word of God. (2 timothy 3:16). We are made in God's image so it's not weird to use humans to write a book even if they sinned right? Milennin said: Azertity said: Do you have any proof that the evolution really happened? Scientific research with evidence supporting evolution is everywhere. ... Why don't we start questioning who created evolution in the first place if evolution is indeed real? BAM right in the heels m8 Just because there are gaps in the history of the universe that are yet to be explained by science doesn't mean you can just fill them with any religious bullshit to justify your arguments for a god. One of the biggest differences between atheists and anyone religious is that an atheist will quite happily accept the fact they they don't know how the universe was created, It is a question that is yet to be answered. A question that will hopefully one day be answered when there is sufficient evidence that supports one of the many existing theories or perhaps enlightens us to a new one. People who believe in a god however seem to think they have all the right answers despite their horrendous lack of evidence. No we don't think that, we think the same like you. You just said "Just because there are gaps in the history of the universe that are yet to be explained by science doesn't mean you can just fill them with any religious bullshit to justify your arguments for a god." And we think "Just because existing of a God doesn't sound logical, you can't come up with a simple bullshit evolution theory." Just because it’s illogical, that doesn’t make it wrong my friend. |
Oct 23, 2015 5:50 AM
#141
Azertity said: You can read all the quran online so you're not making much of a point.. Some of this stuff also comes from Muslim sites and some from criticism things but I do check multiple sources of different views usually.I don't want to be cocky or something like that, but I guess you have, you have read a (probably from the internet(?)) 'another Quran' |
Oct 23, 2015 5:53 AM
#142
Azertity said: And we think "Just because existing of a God doesn't sound logical, you can't come up with a simple bullshit evolution theory.". And as a previous poster said, there is a ton of evidence supporting evolution. It is not something that someone has just "come up with". The mere thought of evolution wouldn't have even been conceived nor entertained for as long as it has been if evidence hadn't pointed to it. Evolution is a fact. We have evolved and are continuing to evolve. There is PLENTY of evidence for that. The thing that is yet to be proven is the origin of life from non-life. |
Innactivedude1Oct 23, 2015 5:58 AM
Oct 23, 2015 6:00 AM
#143
traed said: Azertity said: You can read all the quran online so you're not making much of a point.. Some of this stuff also comes from Muslim sites and some from criticism things but I do check multiple sources of different views usually.I don't want to be cocky or something like that, but I guess you have, you have read a (probably from the internet(?)) 'another Quran' That's my point, it's online... RockerRollin said: Azertity said: And we think "Just because existing of a God doesn't sound logical, you can't come up with a simple bullshit evolution theory.". And as a previous poster said, there is a ton of evidence supporting evolution. It is not something that someone has just "come up with". The mere thought of evolution wouldn't have even been conceived nor entertained for as long as it has been if evidence hadn't pointed to it. Evolution is a fact. We have evolved and are continuing to evolve. There is PLENTY of evidence for that. The thing that is yet to be proven is the origin of life from non-life. Bruhh.. you''ve just believed and still believing everything you have been told. You can only convince me by telling me, yup I was there when we arrived to a conclusion. You're just watching national geographic at home and now you're telling me that the theory really exist? So you believed too, 'the first land on the moon' aka Apollo 11... Don't believe everything m8. Anyways take care, evolution bless y'all |
Oct 23, 2015 6:03 AM
#144
Azertity said: Did you know that the Kaaba (or Ka'aba, It is considered the "House of God" and has a similar role as the Tabernacle and Holy of Holies in Judaism and Christianity.) The curtain of the temple being torn in twain is a powerful symbol in Christian doctrine. The book of Peter uses the phrase 'put on your tabernacle' in a manner similar to Christ mentioning carrying your cross daily. I'm not so sure that its role can be so simply equated, although I guess you did only say 'similar'. By the way, you're talking about the Big Black Cube, right? The BBC that all the Muslims prostrate themselves in front of? Shitposting is an Australian thing. It's like our way of saying a friendly hello! |
Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
Oct 23, 2015 6:08 AM
#145
Azertity said: Bruhh.. you''ve just believed and still believing everything you have been told. You can only convince me by telling me, yup I was there when we arrived to a conclusion. You're just watching national geographic at home and now you're telling me that the theory really exist? So you believed too, 'the first land on the moon' aka Apollo 11... Don't believe everything m8. Anyways take care, evolution bless y'all I don't mean to insult you but your arguments are becoming incredibly hypocritical and just plain stupid. Also Azertity said: You can only convince me by telling me, yup I was there when we arrived to a conclusion. This sentence is exactly what I was getting at when I said you cannot argue logic with someone religious. We could one day discover evidence that flat out shows that there is no god, never has been, never will be and they will still ignore it because if you believe that something fictitious is real then quite frankly you'll believe anything. Still you have your beliefs and I have mine, fair enough :) |
Oct 23, 2015 6:25 AM
#146
Azertity said: Everything is online.... you're not making a good argument.traed said: Azertity said: I don't want to be cocky or something like that, but I guess you have, you have read a (probably from the internet(?)) 'another Quran' That's my point, it's online... |
Oct 23, 2015 11:56 AM
#147
traed said: But the Quran says everything was created in six days. A Hadith even name off the days of the week. The fact it mentions day of the week hows it cant be interpreted as anything else but literal. I already know that the word used for days can be interpreted to mean "time period" because I already know that use is not the case when a specific number is assigned to it which makes it always mean days in those cases. The Quran also says the sky was made after earth not before. That and plant life came before the sun which is just wrong because plants need photosynthesis. Also man was created in Paradise not earth. It also says humans are made from clots of blood which is just wrong to how people develop. I don't know what those 'six days' mean neither do I need to know in order to establish my faith. Apply the law of Mutashabihat: accept them as they are. The sky Quran talks about is either: 1. Arsh (Heavens) 2. Sama'a (Sky/atmosphere) And Quran states nothing on the lines of what was made earlier or what was not. You may have misconstrued it from the verses that state that He made the Earth and He made the sky; but their literal order isn't their actual order or maybe it is. No need to know. I don't know where you've gotten the 'plant life came before sun' claim but if it is the Quran, kindly state it. Man was, in all likelihood, created in Lahoot (the highest point there is to the entire universe/multiverse). Quran doesn't state where exactly man was created. Even if man was created on the heavens, it doesn't contradict 'spiritual evolution'. As it pertains not to the material body but the immaterial spirit. The 'clot of blood' is 'Alaq' which is the word for 'zygote'. Food for thought: Quran also says that God made man from dirt, and also 'water'. |
[i]"Yet each man kills the thing he loves, [/i]By each let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!'' ~Oscar |
Oct 23, 2015 12:38 PM
#148
geniobastardo said: The sky Quran talks about is either: 1. Arsh (Heavens) 2. Sama'a (Sky/atmosphere) If it's only supposed to be in arabic it's either the one or the other. |
Now you're wondering if there's white text in any of my other posts. Over there, I'm everywhere. I know that. |
Oct 23, 2015 2:05 PM
#149
geniobastardo said: I avoided listing things since I hoped you knew enough I would not have to since it takes time. Some of it is from a hadith.traed said: But the Quran says everything was created in six days. A Hadith even name off the days of the week. The fact it mentions day of the week hows it cant be interpreted as anything else but literal. I already know that the word used for days can be interpreted to mean "time period" because I already know that use is not the case when a specific number is assigned to it which makes it always mean days in those cases. The Quran also says the sky was made after earth not before. That and plant life came before the sun which is just wrong because plants need photosynthesis. Also man was created in Paradise not earth. It also says humans are made from clots of blood which is just wrong to how people develop. I don't know what those 'six days' mean neither do I need to know in order to establish my faith. Apply the law of Mutashabihat: accept them as they are. The sky Quran talks about is either: 1. Arsh (Heavens) 2. Sama'a (Sky/atmosphere) And Quran states nothing on the lines of what was made earlier or what was not. You may have misconstrued it from the verses that state that He made the Earth and He made the sky; but their literal order isn't their actual order or maybe it is. No need to know. I don't know where you've gotten the 'plant life came before sun' claim but if it is the Quran, kindly state it. Man was, in all likelihood, created in Lahoot (the highest point there is to the entire universe/multiverse). Quran doesn't state where exactly man was created. Even if man was created on the heavens, it doesn't contradict 'spiritual evolution'. As it pertains not to the material body but the immaterial spirit. The 'clot of blood' is 'Alaq' which is the word for 'zygote'. Food for thought: Quran also says that God made man from dirt, and also 'water'. The quran is not very straight forward with the order of things because its all scattered around various places but I have not really found a passage where the sun was mentioned being created but the heavens were not so its pretty straight forward the sun was only made during the heavens but the heavens were only made after earth. " He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven (l-samāi) , and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things." sūrat l-baqarah 2:29 "Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i.e. between afternoon and night." Sahih Muslim 39:6707 |
Oct 23, 2015 10:48 PM
#150
traed said: The quran is not very straight forward with the order of things because its all scattered around various places but I have not really found a passage where the sun was mentioned being created but the heavens were not so its pretty straight forward the sun was only made during the heavens but the heavens were only made after earth. " He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven (l-samāi) , and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things." sūrat l-baqarah 2:29 It's 'samai' a.k.a the sky/atmosphere. Also, looking at the Arabic text here, the word used as a conjunction is 'thum'ma' which could be translated to nay, moreover and then. Some translations, such as Yusuf Ali's has translated as 'Moreover'. And that is corroborated by the verses of the Quran that state that the sky and the Earth were made simultaneously. Have not those who disbelieve known that the skies and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe. (21:30) Even Ibn Kathir's exegesis states that the use of that word is only for informing not for action. Because, if here's one verse that seemingly states that the sky and the Earth were made in sequence, then there are many that state that they weren't. I can make no comment what the 'seven heavens' are supposed to mean neither, again, do I need to. traed said: "Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i.e. between afternoon and night." Sahih Muslim 39:6707 I really can't help but doubt the authenticity of this Hadith. Even in Sahih-al-Muslim there are a lot of contentious Ahadith and this is one of them because in the Quran, it is clearly mentioned that the process of 'creation' (whether in spirit or material form) was done in six days but this Hadith says seven. Allah knows better. I hate to get into arguments about trying to prove the 'scientific authenticity' of religious' texts as I've never looked at my religion to be my guide in science neither have I ever looked at science to lead me to God. There are a million ways people can twist their religion to fit science and a million more ways people can twist scientific facts to fit their own respective agendas. It is better if we keep the distinction clear: one is philosophy, the other is explanation. From an unbiased point of view, neither science has ever progressed whenever it had tried to disprove religion nor religion has given birth to anything good if its sole duty was to dismantle the 'heretics' claiming their claim on science. |
[i]"Yet each man kills the thing he loves, [/i]By each let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!'' ~Oscar |
More topics from this board
» Running from the past_Nette_ - 5 hours ago |
4 |
by LightWorker
»»
32 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » Most annoying instrument?56709 - Feb 28, 2023 |
37 |
by Zarutaku
»»
39 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » Which decade was the worst?H-A-M-M-Y - Mar 27 |
20 |
by Cbr_Star
»»
1 hour ago |
|
» When did you become a forum poster?LenRea - 1 hour ago |
5 |
by LightWorker
»»
1 hour ago |
|
» what is the worst song you have ever listened to?yaessmochi - Mar 26 |
18 |
by JaniSIr
»»
1 hour ago |