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Jul 27, 2015 8:03 PM
#51
Imeon said: Magic only works when they know whats comings, where it's coming, and when it's coming. And there are "magics" that let you know whats comings, where it's coming, and when it's coming such as insight, foretelling, prophecy, sixth sense, using wind to detect movement, using earth techs to know their locations, casting invisibility, etc etc Seriously, we saw a lot of anime where powerful wizards can be killed by swords and arrows. Even gods and immortal could have a weakness. If those works, why can't bullets, light speed laser and Tsar Bomb will not? Because of what we call "plot"? Seriously, if we place all the magics available versus all military science available, FROM ALL SOURCES RESPECTIVE TO BOTH SIDES AS OF 2015, WITHOUT HOLDING BACK EACH SIDE'S RESOURCES AND POTENTIAL (i.e. magics - animes, novels, movies | science - modern warfare, satellite), in a full scale war, then it doesn't even take an average joe to know who's gonna win. I can simply summon Superman or Goku, put a master-servant contract on him, and all hell break lose on your "science-military" side. Anyway, Pro Magic supporters can think of anything to prove magic is superior, it'll only give Pro-Science headaches. Of course, it will because you'll never win. Because magic IS INDEED superior, IF it is REAL. And this is an IF-discussion, a premise that assumes that magic is real in the first place.Being a Pro or Anti or atheist or watchamalitt has got nothing to do with the discussion neither it helps you prove science is superior than magic. Who knows magic may be, in actuality, the future of modern science. P.S. And for whoever's sake it is, since when "military/modern warfare" magically turn into "science"? For a pro-science, you just skipped a logical milestone there and killed Mr. Logic. |
ExplodingGirlJul 27, 2015 8:22 PM
Jul 27, 2015 10:59 PM
#52
Realistically GATE Technology>GATE Magic Unless of-course if they have Mahou Shoujo armed with friendship, that shit is unstoppable. |
Jul 27, 2015 11:26 PM
#53
WrongPriest said: Realistically GATE Technology>GATE Magic Unless of-course if they have Mahou Shoujo armed with friendship, that shit is unstoppable. True, it's up to Yanai-sensei to write what the fuck he want. |
Jul 28, 2015 12:18 AM
#54
Blankbite said: Aoi076 said: Lol, the US isn't that dumb. They won't use their precious WMD just to kill that guy. They probably will use smarter way like using their chemical weaponries or simply by waiting for that guy to exhausted by overly using his magic before sending the spec ops to finish him. Lol And who said magicians are dumber? There also are magics to replenish mana and strength. Alchemist that can brew "magic beans" for instant recovery. Biohazard weaponry can be purified using divine and purification magics. And who said the magus is alone? You simply ignored what's already been said - "army". Btw, from what I've seen most mage must chant a pretty long spell to create a Nuke sized magic, but a sniper can stop it from happening. A sniper can stop a nuclear warhead? Lol. This is why proper punctuation is needed. And who said there isn't a magic for disassembling? Have you ever read The God of Highschool? There are also a lot of anime that shows hacking magic that bypass military grade securities. You can even stop a nuclear launch by hacking through their mainframe computer system without a breaking sweat. And actually, our real world already has magic, it's called 'science'. You shouldn't skip you science class and continue study. Lol surely you're jesting here. We're talking about "magic" like shooting fireballs from your hand. Unless your "science" can shoot fireballs out of your hand and summon demons, this statement is dumb and out of discussion. Seriusly, we can think about any crazy thoughts about 'magic is superior than science' and give the scientists and engineers cancer by spitting at their masterpieces. You're probably one of those prideful science freaks who assume I'm mocking science. In the first place, the discussion is about who'll win when they had a war, but then you extend the argument and make it more personal than needed, as quoted above. I'm simply making an objective statement here. Science is science. Scientists' works is another. Don't stupidly meld the two things together and make a nonsensical verbal war that isn't even related to the main topic. If "magic" and "science" is the same as you claim, and both are part of the universal laws, from scale of 1-10, lowest to highest, magic would be '10' and science (as of now) is '3'. Of course this a rough estimation and the whole purpose of this comparison is to make a point that magic are leagues apart from the "current" science. Who knows maybe the magic as we know it, is actually the future of science". Animes like Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei are prime example that magic is superior to modern warfare. The only limit to magic is our imagination. QFT I'm not saying a sniper rifle can stop a Nuclear Warhead, I'm saying a sniper can stop the mage's spell. (Actually, a Nuclear Warhead can be stopped if you fired another missile on it.) In Zero no Tsukaima, Louise must chant "bla bla bla" to create a Nuke-like magic. And Saito can stop a mage from summoning devil by shooting her hip with a pistol. And in Mahouka, Tatsuya did know both science and magic and that's what make him strong. This is what will make Lelei strong like a living howitzer And who said I'm one of those freaks? I did know science and believe it. I want to say that science is magic. Then tell me, how can you walked on the ground? How electricity works? And how can your PC show your Animu picture? Or in this anime how those peoples in green clothes(The JSDF) shoots lightning bolt from their wand(The Type-64)? For someone who doesn't know science, it's magical right? And by the way, I felt you're also one of those dumb, prideful pro-magic supporter. Blankbite said: Imeon said: Magic only works when they know whats comings, where it's coming, and when it's coming. And there are "magics" that let you know whats comings, where it's coming, and when it's coming such as insight, foretelling, prophecy, sixth sense, using wind to detect movement, using earth techs to know their locations, casting invisibility, etc etc Seriously, we saw a lot of anime where powerful wizards can be killed by swords and arrows. Even gods and immortal could have a weakness. If those works, why can't bullets, light speed laser and Tsar Bomb will not? Because of what we call "plot"? Seriously, if we place all the magics available versus all military science available, FROM ALL SOURCES RESPECTIVE TO BOTH SIDES AS OF 2015, WITHOUT HOLDING BACK EACH SIDE'S RESOURCES AND POTENTIAL (i.e. magics - animes, novels, movies | science - modern warfare, satellite), in a full scale war, then it doesn't even take an average joe to know who's gonna win. I can simply summon Superman or Goku, put a master-servant contract on him, and all hell break lose on your "science-military" side. Anyway, Pro Magic supporters can think of anything to prove magic is superior, it'll only give Pro-Science headaches. Of course, it will because you'll never win. Because magic IS INDEED superior, IF it is REAL. And this is an IF-discussion, a premise that assumes that magic is real in the first place.Being a Pro or Anti or atheist or watchamalitt has got nothing to do with the discussion neither it helps you prove science is superior than magic. Who knows magic may be, in actuality, the future of modern science. P.S. And for whoever's sake it is, since when "military/modern warfare" magically turn into "science"? For a pro-science, you just skipped a logical milestone there and killed Mr. Logic. I Agree with you about magic might become the future science and possibly you'll be the one who will prove it. Imeon is right, dude. You can think of a man fell from the sky and destroy all of the world by kicking the ground. (Sounds like Chuck Norris) And who said Modern Warfare is different than science. If it's different then tell me, why they need a scientist to create WMD? How a sniper can shoot his target before calculating the gravitation, distance, wind, etc? How can they create heat seeking missiles without knowing what high temperature is? How can the peoples like Kalashnikov designed the AK-47 without knowing the Gas-Operated Reloading? I forgot to say that this is GATE realm so saying Superman and Goku curbstomping the JSDF will make nonsense. The empire did know magic but low in tech, that's what make them weak. But peoples in Madouka did know science that what make them strong. And by the way 'every man has their own weakness'. I'm out from this useless discussion. It's not like I'll become the next Albert Einstein by proving 'science is superior than magic' or vice versa. |
Jul 28, 2015 12:58 AM
#55
^Just what would I expect from an alt account. And by the way, I felt you're also one of those dumb, prideful pro-magic supporter. Ah, full of spite. Don't you have anything new to throw at me? I already expected these kinds of lines in retort. Just to be clear, I'm not one of them. In the first place, you are the one who started this pro-anti bullshit and passive-agressive statements aimed at me. Stop greasing your own crap to me. I Agree with you about magic might become the future science and possibly you'll be the one who will prove it. The sarcasm is so strong with this one. No wonder you needed an alt account. Well didn't bother reading the rest. Total waste of time. P.S. For someone who have 0 anime list, you have a good knowledge of Zero Tsukaima and Mahouka...I wonder why. |
ExplodingGirlJul 28, 2015 1:14 AM
Jul 28, 2015 2:54 AM
#56
Blankbite said: No wonder you needed an alt account. Well didn't bother reading the rest. Total waste of time. P.S. For someone who have 0 anime list, you have a good knowledge of Zero Tsukaima and Mahouka...I wonder why. Sorry, this is my real account. But I'm just too lazy to update my list. And are you mad, bro? Sorry, I don't intend to spreading baits. I'm just giving my opinion. |
Jul 28, 2015 1:50 PM
#57
Jul 28, 2015 3:29 PM
#58
Sukebe14 said: I dont imagine any mage that could withstand concentrated artillery fire, carpet bombing or shot from very far using sniper rifle. Well yeah... Except for a world with very high magic level that can put large scale shields strong enough to resist all our weaponry, our world's armies won't be stopped by a few geezers doing fireball attacks.... |
Jul 29, 2015 1:58 AM
#59
Blankbite said: Magic > Modern Warfare Army of Magic Users > Army of Modern Warfarers Magic = Unbounded by A.N.Y.T.H.I.N.G. Modern Warfare = Bounded by Physics There's an infinite possibility and potential. Goodluck dropping a nuclear bomb and realized you bomb no one because he simply teleported right to your face inside your 10km deep top-secret U.S. bunker. God I can imagine the faces you're going to make. Sorry, but it makes no sense. Magic is limited in almost any series. By internal laws, magician's output, amount of energy, understanding or knowledge. So it all depends if these limits are higher or lower than limits of modern warfare. And I see, that you are trying to turn it all magic ever imagined vs today's military. It's quite fallacious approach, since magic in GATE isn't even remotely that powerful. |
No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded. |
Jul 29, 2015 3:49 AM
#60
jakkubus said: Sorry, but it makes no sense. Magic is limited in almost any series. By internal laws, magician's output, amount of energy, understanding or knowledge. So it all depends if these limits are higher or lower than limits of modern warfare. And I see, that you are trying to turn it all magic ever imagined vs today's military. It's quite fallacious approach, since magic in GATE isn't even remotely that powerful. It's because my post is intentionally a step up outside the world of GATE. I'm putting the scale on a "reality level" not just on the anime's. Of course it would look fallacious since you didn't take that into consideration. Likewise, there are a lot of series where magic holds the long end of the stick against modern warfare. I don't know how many magic series have you watched or how limited is the scope of your "magic" but as you've omitted in your quote, there are tons of magic available ranging from immortality, physical immunity, invisibility, invicibility, etc etc Furthermore, "full scale magic against full scale modern warfare, is a lot better scaling/balance" than "Magic is limited in almost any series.By internal laws, magician's output, amount of energy, understanding or knowledge." In my humblest opinion, my idea is far fairer than your approach if we want a 'X vs. Y' debate. Of course if you have a better idea than *magic is limited in almost any series so it loses to modern warfare* than my approach, then please you're welcome to do so. Fine. For argument's sake, let's stick to GATE's magic. Take Rory Mercury for example. It would be a spoiler but there would be an episode in which Rory's immortality > U.S. Special Force/Navy or whatever best unit you name them. I take it for granted that Rory is a *magical entity* therefore she counts as "magic". Now imagine an army of Rory (or the Emroys) vs. JSDF, who do you think will win? |
ExplodingGirlJul 29, 2015 3:56 AM
Jul 29, 2015 2:42 PM
#61
Blankbite said: It's because my post is intentionally a step up outside the world of GATE. I'm putting the scale on a "reality level" not just on the anime's. Of course it would look fallacious since you didn't take that into consideration. And that's what makes no sense, since it's completely out of context here. Magic A =/= magic B. And magic in the world of GATE is nowhere near level of one displayed by e.g. Dr. Strange. Likewise, there are a lot of series where magic holds the long end of the stick against modern warfare. I don't know how many magic series have you watched or how limited is the scope of your "magic" but as you've omitted in your quote, there are tons of magic available ranging from immortality, physical immunity, invisibility, invicibility, etc etc Of course there are, but the fact, that some casters in e.g. Raildex are stronger than conventional warfare, doesn't mean that magic > modern warfare is a rule. Furthermore, "full scale magic against full scale modern warfare, is a lot better scaling/balance" than "Magic is limited in almost any series.By internal laws, magician's output, amount of energy, understanding or knowledge." In my humblest opinion, my idea is far fairer than your approach if we want a 'X vs. Y' debate. Of course if you have a better idea than *magic is limited in almost any series so it loses to modern warfare* than my approach, then please you're welcome to do so. What do you mean by "full scale magic"? If full scale GATE magic, then I don't think, that it could take fully serious modern warfare. If some hybrid between magics of various different series, then there is not a such thing. Fine. For argument's sake, let's stick to GATE's magic. Take Rory Mercury for example. It would be a spoiler but there would be an episode in which Rory's immortality > U.S. Special Force/Navy or whatever best unit you name them. I take it for granted that Rory is a *magical entity* therefore she counts as "magic". Now imagine an army of Rory (or the Emroys) vs. JSDF, who do you think will win? And that's the limit of GATE magic, Rory is special entity, not something to manufacture. By the same logic we can assume, that modern warfare can completely cover the sky with nukes cause screw resources. |
No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded. |
Jul 29, 2015 3:28 PM
#62
Only with the current KNOWN weapons, I can't imagine a magic victory... The modern forces only need use biological warfare and immunize their own forces. It's a piece of cake. The worst that could happen is the destruction of both sides, the current humans have the power to destroy the world itself... Obviously if we think the magic powers are unlimited and with them can do anything, inclusive destroy the world or cure any disease... then this last option is the more likely scenario. But, in the anime don't seem be like this... The magic is the science of the future :3 |
Jul 29, 2015 5:41 PM
#63
jakkubus said: I give up keep your arguments to yourself. You essentially ignored every single points I've made. There's no point explaining something someone does not want to at least put into consideration. Ah just to close it, my first post is slightly offtopic. Of course anything you don't understand doesn't make sense; for example, Triple Integrals and Partial Differential Equations doesn't make sense for me until I understand more of it and its application. Harsel said: The magic is the science of the future :3 People in this thread just can't seem to get this. If magic is the future science then we can assume that this whole debate is about Future Science vs. Today's Science. It still doesn't make any sense? I give up. There's no hope. |
Jul 29, 2015 6:14 PM
#64
Blankbite said: People in this thread just can't seem to get this. If magic is the future science then we can assume that this whole debate is about Future Science vs. Today's Science. It still doesn't make any sense? I give up. There's no hope. Don't take it literally. I've never spoken of futuristic weaponry or similar. It was only a mention to Joseph Goodavage, a writer. That phrase was simply a final touch. -.- |
Jul 31, 2015 3:54 AM
#65
@ Blankbite Let's stick with the GATE world ok? Because, obviously you can put anything "awesome" to make "magic"superior to science. Spoil me of anything that you KNOW in the GATE world that can negate a nuke, a JDAMs. Honestly, spoil me. I mean it. SERIOUSLY. If you don't and cannot then , SHUT UP and stick with the discussion and please don't bring up Madoka or Touhou. |
#CHEXIT |
Jul 31, 2015 7:24 AM
#66
Depends on the magic and how they use it. I mean, magic barriers should be a thing, right? I'm pretty sure there's some kind of nuke-stopping magic. |
Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Jul 31, 2015 7:19 PM
#67
Imeon said: @ Blankbite Let's stick with the GATE world ok? Because, obviously you can put anything "awesome" to make "magic"superior to science. Spoil me of anything that you KNOW in the GATE world that can negate a nuke, a JDAMs. Honestly, spoil me. I mean it. SERIOUSLY. If you don't and cannot then , SHUT UP and stick with the discussion and please don't bring up Madoka or Touhou. Wow. So much hate and rudeness. Have you ever read the last lines of mine two posts away? I did sticked to "Gate's only" argument but only to be swiped away without further consideration. It's their limitation, he says? Pfft. You want me to spoil a little? Fine. There are 10 apostles of a god. All of them are immortal. And there are multiple gods meaning there are multiple emroys. Rory alone can take the Japan Special Force + U.S. Navy SEALS like cutting a potato on a ground battle. JDAM my ass. An injured dragon alone toasted 2 fighting jets like nothing. Oh and let's just say your nuke hit Rory (though she's fast enough to avoid aerial bombs), will she die then? Noooo!!!! She will respawn again and again until all of your manufactured nukes are gone. Where's your god now!? And FFS, this thread, as intended by the OP, isn't limited to Gate (though posted in Gate's forum)? The title alone can tell you that. I didn't even watched Madoka or Touhou so keep your SHUT UP shenanigans to yourself. Ha, it's 2015 and there are still people who tell others to "SHUT UP". |
ExplodingGirlJul 31, 2015 7:51 PM
Jul 31, 2015 8:06 PM
#68
kinda hard to believe that magic is better then modern weaponry when it isn't real. Unless i see what magic can really do in the modern world, then ill side with it. But for now guns and rockets are the real threat to me. |
Hate Keeps me warm |
Aug 1, 2015 2:39 AM
#69
Blankbites said: snip She fought he US Navy seals? Fly and slash a fighter plane 15k up in the air? And resisted a JDAM?! Awesome!!!! What chapter? I'll see it by my own eyes! Never thought they already went that far! Sugoi! Sugoi! |
RPSB9Aug 1, 2015 2:46 AM
#CHEXIT |
Aug 1, 2015 3:32 AM
#70
Blank you are overhyping the apostles too much. They are neither immortal nor as op as you make them out to be. With the example of Rory: She is "immortal" but she only lives until 1000 years old. Her body will heal any wounds but with bigger wounds and torn limbs it will take time. One could also play the good old trap card where she might regenerate but is not able to do anything. Also her battle against the special forces doesn't mean she will win all the time. In this scenario the special forces of different countries were fighting eachother plus she suddenly appeared and they didn't have any knowledge of her. It was also a close proximity fight to begin with, something that suits her. By no means does that mean she can win against special forces that are knowledgable about her abilities and have prepared a setup against her. That needed to be pointed out. |
Aug 1, 2015 4:33 AM
#71
@Blankbite Ummmmm.... With that big power clashes... I'm not sure the world... The solar system can survive. They will get destroyed. |
Aug 1, 2015 5:04 AM
#72
Imeon said: She fought he US Navy seals? Not Navy SEAL, but they're actually the CIA. I think that blank dude is baiting. |
Aug 1, 2015 5:27 AM
#73
KaiserNazrin said: Yeah but them not being as OP in this anime make it more interesting, I mean how many anime have you watch that have competent army? I get tired of teenage boy being more powerful than a whole army. More like the author's just handing his author fiat to them. GATE would be far better if we have someone like Tgurneu from Rokka no Yuusha in the fantasy side. vangoz said: Well Gate's is not a world of magic, it's more like a medieval world really, just blended with fantasy creatures. Magic exists but super rare and not really practiced by the humanoid military. If anything the story is more of a military conquest with some adventure element. The firepower is vastly different, so the war is a curbstomp battle. Manga spoiler Well, it may be interesting if the gods of that world appear (not yet in the manga so far), then we might see some magic/supernatural vs technology battle Exactly. People who think this proves the "superiority" of modern technology over fantasy world is either dumb or just deluding themselves. Aoi076 said: It's up to what kind of magic they use. If they use the low level magic like in Zero no Tsukaima and the usual RPG games, we can curbstomp them with our military might like in this anime. But if their magic is the same level like in Fairy Tail, Magi, or even Touhou, we are in serious trouble. But we still has the last way to the defeat them: WMD(Nuke, Chemical Weapon, etc). And also, warfare isn't entirely about as simple as all-out-engagement. It's full of something called politics, strategy, and tactic. 'Strategy without Tactic is the longest way to victory, but Tactic without Strategy is the shortest way to defeat'. Not mentioning the Modern Armed Force won't attack unless provoked. Remember, 'Rules of Engagement'. And Modern Country now prefer to used Politic and Economy rather than military powers. Dragon Quest, pretty much THE usual RPG game, can easily render our modern world helpless just by the magic of its Demon Lord. He can seal different parts of the world into its own dimension, cutting it off from the rest of the world before invading them one by one. And when that happens, he'll send the rain that turns you into stone. And the "rain" is just symbolic since if you're indoor when the rain happens, you'll still get turned into stone. Anyone left will be slaughtered by his killer robots (what, you think he'll stay medieval forever?) Or he could just wait it out after he shatters the world, see how our world's economy crumbles into pieces. kingofthenerfs said: Takuan_Soho said: The problem isn't that magic can't defeat modern technology, rather magic wouldn't understand how to defeat modern technology until it was too late. If someone knowledgeable of technology's limitations were to lead the magic side, victory wouldn't be that difficult. Imagine dragons catching fuel laden jets on ground, mages casting illusions on radar systems, dwarfs tunneling underneath entrenched positions. This is only a start. Vampires who cannot be shot, zombies who cannot be killed, ghosts, ghouls, demons, all attacking in unison. In Gate the forces of fantasy don't understand their opponent, but the more they understand, the more equal they become. I do not think you understand how powerful modern tech is. Not only would dragons be easily seen both in radar and visually they are also slow and weak to modern force. The show states they were able to pen with 12.7mm rounds and showed Guntanks pening with 35mm rounds very easily. To give some perspective a 5.56 round fired out of a M4 has 3.098 kJ of force, 12.7 round fired out of a 50. cal has 20.595 kJ of force, the 35mm Guntank round has 1,622.59 kJ of force and a M1A2 Sabot round has around 26,960.98 kJ of force. No Fantasy Army, no matter how numerous, can, without plot bullshit, beat a modern force. Especially to due the thing has in since the start of the 19th century has killed the majority of men in war, Artillery. You guys need to show modern technology and modern weapons, and especially conventional weapons, some more respect. inb4 you call powerful magic "plot bullshit" Tatsuya said: This is somewhat of a complicated topic in that it depends on what type of magic your referring to, if it's typical D&D or at most say, most final fantasy level magic i'd say that modern technology would easily win, however if we're talking about occult or magic spoken of in religions (wicca, christianity, hinduism,etc), then not only would modern technology lose, but it would be an outright curbstomp, keep in mind that magic in that form manipulates the spiritual world and energies of the world, all one needs to look at is the conservation of energy to understand how utterly broken this would be if possible to control, that said it did have one flaw usually in that it required a form of medium to control usually. So basically, modern day interpretations of magic would be curbstomped, ancient and occult understanding would be the adverse. lol high level DnD wizard can take anything the modern world has to offer. HELLSATAN said: Aoi076 said: HELLSATAN said: Anyone want more links for WN that has modern army versus other world medieval army I know a lot of them. PS. The link I have before the magic army lost to WWII technology. Do you has any? I've wrote the modern vs medieval army story in Fictionpress but I lack of sources. The only story I know is GATE, Salvation War, and several random Familiar of Zero fanfic. If you can read Japanese here. http://ncode.syosetu.com/n6495bk http://ncode.syosetu.com/n7498bd/ http://ncode.syosetu.com/n6408bv/ http://ncode.syosetu.com/n2844bt http://ncode.syosetu.com/n2077bu http://ncode.syosetu.com/n0138bl Warning some of this has not been updated in months except for brigade of iron. Yukikaze, and Japan struggles in a new world (Not sure about the title cause my Japanese suck) and Japan summoned. This title just recently got updated. Also this author keeps making new story but haven't finish a single one all of them involves modern army and other world army I know some others to but I have to look for my copy of the links. http://mypage.syosetu.com/435154/ Now I want the link to that fiction story of yours All those fucking MUH RACISM in the fantasy world. Absolutely disgusting. Their take on the theme is so childish it makes me want to puke. More Japs should read old English literature to see what racism is really like. |
UgokiAug 1, 2015 5:49 AM
Aug 1, 2015 5:54 AM
#74
The one that wield magic and technology will win. Leilei will give an example in future episode |
Aug 1, 2015 6:39 AM
#75
Aoi076 said: Imeon said: She fought he US Navy seals? Not Navy SEAL, but they're actually the CIA. I think that blank dude is baiting. Baiting? I think you're the one who's baiting a reaction from me. It's CIA who's spearheading the operation. True. However, does CIA have their own field battle special units? I think it's still safe to assume they were the best unit USA can have during that joint operation which google says Navy SEAL. They're also using those real-time positioning using satellite. They can even view the females bathing. Vudis said: Blank you are overhyping the apostles too much. They are neither immortal nor as op as you make them out to be. With the example of Rory: She is "immortal" but she only lives until 1000 years old. Her body will heal any wounds but with bigger wounds and torn limbs it will take time. One could also play the good old trap card where she might regenerate but is not able to do anything. Also her battle against the special forces doesn't mean she will win all the time. In this scenario the special forces of different countries were fighting eachother plus she suddenly appeared and they didn't have any knowledge of her. It was also a close proximity fight to begin with, something that suits her. By no means does that mean she can win against special forces that are knowledgable about her abilities and have prepared a setup against her. That needed to be pointed out. Are you sure you're not overhyping JSDF too? Japan's military strength is not equivalent to 1st world countries' military strength. They only have surplus and 2nd-hand equipment. Even a single fighter jet is whacking their budgets. Are you sure you're not underestimating the Otherworld? Not much is shown on their side yet. The only Emroys that's been shown are Rory and another one, and a bunch of stupid, egoistic, suicidal humans getting done. How about the gods themselves? Who knows what abilities the others have? And since when Rory's side can't counter this good ol' traps? So the military side can use their brains but the Otherworld are incapable? Lelei FTW then. What is important to understand here is that neither side fully knows the full capability of each other. We as the viewers know what the JSDF are capable (JSDF=/=world) but not the other. It's a mystery. Even the people living there don't know much about their own world. And of course, this is an anime about modern warfare owning "a less advance civizilation" with "scarce" magic and magical beings as its only perks. I can even imagine the ending whose side is going to win. There's even JSDF on the anime title. Pretty much a stupid debate to begin with. But wait, the OP meant the discussion to be on a "broader scale" so... |
ExplodingGirlAug 1, 2015 7:02 AM
Aug 1, 2015 9:20 AM
#76
Blankbite said: Aoi076 said: Imeon said: She fought he US Navy seals? Not Navy SEAL, but they're actually the CIA. I think that blank dude is baiting. Baiting? I think you're the one who's baiting a reaction from me. It's CIA who's spearheading the operation. True. However, does CIA have their own field battle special units? I think it's still safe to assume they were the best unit USA can have during that joint operation which google says Navy SEAL. They're also using those real-time positioning using satellite. They can even view the females bathing. Vudis said: Blank you are overhyping the apostles too much. They are neither immortal nor as op as you make them out to be. With the example of Rory: She is "immortal" but she only lives until 1000 years old. Her body will heal any wounds but with bigger wounds and torn limbs it will take time. One could also play the good old trap card where she might regenerate but is not able to do anything. Also her battle against the special forces doesn't mean she will win all the time. In this scenario the special forces of different countries were fighting eachother plus she suddenly appeared and they didn't have any knowledge of her. It was also a close proximity fight to begin with, something that suits her. By no means does that mean she can win against special forces that are knowledgable about her abilities and have prepared a setup against her. That needed to be pointed out. Are you sure you're not overhyping JSDF too? Japan's military strength is not equivalent to 1st world countries' military strength. They only have surplus and 2nd-hand equipment. Even a single fighter jet is whacking their budgets. Are you sure you're not underestimating the Otherworld? Not much is shown on their side yet. The only Emroys that's been shown are Rory and another one, and a bunch of stupid, egoistic, suicidal humans getting done. How about the gods themselves? Who knows what abilities the others have? And since when Rory's side can't counter this good ol' traps? So the military side can use their brains but the Otherworld are incapable? Lelei FTW then. What is important to understand here is that neither side fully knows the full capability of each other. We as the viewers know what the JSDF are capable (JSDF=/=world) but not the other. It's a mystery. Even the people living there don't know much about their own world. And of course, this is an anime about modern warfare owning "a less advance civizilation" with "scarce" magic and magical beings as its only perks. I can even imagine the ending whose side is going to win. There's even JSDF on the anime title. Pretty much a stupid debate to begin with. But wait, the OP meant the discussion to be on a "broader scale" so... Yes, they have. It's called the Special Activities Division (SAD). They're recruiting members not only from Navy SEAL, but also from Delta force, Marsoc, Army Ranger, and Pararescue men. And the reason why Rory beat them not only because she's extremely strong, but also because the CIA has no Intel about her and they focused on their mission and attacking the FBO and chinese agent(I forget their agency name). Not mentioning they've already being demoralized after the suprise counter-attack from the Japanese Special Force. And about the Fire Dragon damaged one of the Phantoms because the pilot underestimated it and think it's like a helicopter, thus easy to shot down. And in chapter 46, one of the apostles (I forget her name) easily defeated after the JSDF combined arms come and being captured without further resistance. It's because the JSDF has already prepared for every possibilities Actually, the most important factor that affect victory isn't strength, but information about the enemy and a competent commander. This discussion is in GATE forum, so it will only revolve around GATE realm only. And please use spoiler tags dude. |
Aug 1, 2015 9:37 AM
#77
Aug 1, 2015 9:47 AM
#78
Almost in each every case where magic vs. technology comes to play, magic loses not because magic is weak, but because you can NOT mass produce actual mages. Side representing magic is usually compromised by dumb peasants or beasts, actual mages are rare, being either elite forces or living artillery. Should there be an army compromised only of full fledged mages with military training, I would bet for those, but in most cases, there isn't such a thing. In GATE, "magic side" e.g. Empire barely has any magicians and those few who they have doesn't even want to fight on their side. Majority of the battles were fought with swords and shield, so fight involved low tech versus high tech, not technology vs. magic. First mage that appeared in GATE deflected to JSDF side at first opportunity. Majority of the battles were fought with concentrated artillery and machine-gun fire against phalanx formations (spears & shields) with some cavalry support, with no magic involved. Empire had a few flying beast which didn't even breathe fire as you would expect from dragons, they can do the dive attack grabbing troops and attacking with claws. Those can also easily fall to machine-gun (or flak, if older tech). Still no magicians. Fire dragon would do some damage if they attacked the army, instead they fight it mixing the local's intel with modern weaponry. When dragon appeared, it wasn't a part of actual army. There isn't any actual army of dragons. |
beast_regardsAug 1, 2015 10:06 AM
Signature removed. It was too good for this cruel world. |
Aug 10, 2015 7:29 PM
#79
This is not Harry Potter. The magic in this world is not that powerful. |
Aug 10, 2015 10:16 PM
#80
bibotot said: This is not Harry Potter. The magic in this world is not that powerful. Yeah, HP Wizards stomp modern armies. |
Aug 12, 2015 5:23 AM
#81
Blankbite said: um here you military by rank in Asia http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing-asia-pacific.aspAoi076 said: Imeon said: She fought he US Navy seals? Not Navy SEAL, but they're actually the CIA. I think that blank dude is baiting. Baiting? I think you're the one who's baiting a reaction from me. It's CIA who's spearheading the operation. True. However, does CIA have their own field battle special units? I think it's still safe to assume they were the best unit USA can have during that joint operation which google says Navy SEAL. They're also using those real-time positioning using satellite. They can even view the females bathing. Vudis said: Blank you are overhyping the apostles too much. They are neither immortal nor as op as you make them out to be. With the example of Rory: She is "immortal" but she only lives until 1000 years old. Her body will heal any wounds but with bigger wounds and torn limbs it will take time. One could also play the good old trap card where she might regenerate but is not able to do anything. Also her battle against the special forces doesn't mean she will win all the time. In this scenario the special forces of different countries were fighting eachother plus she suddenly appeared and they didn't have any knowledge of her. It was also a close proximity fight to begin with, something that suits her. By no means does that mean she can win against special forces that are knowledgable about her abilities and have prepared a setup against her. That needed to be pointed out. Are you sure you're not overhyping JSDF too? Japan's military strength is not equivalent to 1st world countries' military strength. They only have surplus and 2nd-hand equipment. Even a single fighter jet is whacking their budgets. Are you sure you're not underestimating the Otherworld? Not much is shown on their side yet. The only Emroys that's been shown are Rory and another one, and a bunch of stupid, egoistic, suicidal humans getting done. How about the gods themselves? Who knows what abilities the others have? And since when Rory's side can't counter this good ol' traps? So the military side can use their brains but the Otherworld are incapable? Lelei FTW then. What is important to understand here is that neither side fully knows the full capability of each other. We as the viewers know what the JSDF are capable (JSDF=/=world) but not the other. It's a mystery. Even the people living there don't know much about their own world. And of course, this is an anime about modern warfare owning "a less advance civizilation" with "scarce" magic and magical beings as its only perks. I can even imagine the ending whose side is going to win. There's even JSDF on the anime title. Pretty much a stupid debate to begin with. But wait, the OP meant the discussion to be on a "broader scale" so... Japan is fifth most powerful any in Asia so there you go. |
Aug 12, 2015 5:25 AM
#82
Ugoki said: KaiserNazrin said: Yeah but them not being as OP in this anime make it more interesting, I mean how many anime have you watch that have competent army? I get tired of teenage boy being more powerful than a whole army. More like the author's just handing his author fiat to them. GATE would be far better if we have someone like Tgurneu from Rokka no Yuusha in the fantasy side. vangoz said: Well Gate's is not a world of magic, it's more like a medieval world really, just blended with fantasy creatures. Magic exists but super rare and not really practiced by the humanoid military. If anything the story is more of a military conquest with some adventure element. The firepower is vastly different, so the war is a curbstomp battle. Manga spoiler Well, it may be interesting if the gods of that world appear (not yet in the manga so far), then we might see some magic/supernatural vs technology battle Exactly. People who think this proves the "superiority" of modern technology over fantasy world is either dumb or just deluding themselves. Aoi076 said: It's up to what kind of magic they use. If they use the low level magic like in Zero no Tsukaima and the usual RPG games, we can curbstomp them with our military might like in this anime. But if their magic is the same level like in Fairy Tail, Magi, or even Touhou, we are in serious trouble. But we still has the last way to the defeat them: WMD(Nuke, Chemical Weapon, etc). And also, warfare isn't entirely about as simple as all-out-engagement. It's full of something called politics, strategy, and tactic. 'Strategy without Tactic is the longest way to victory, but Tactic without Strategy is the shortest way to defeat'. Not mentioning the Modern Armed Force won't attack unless provoked. Remember, 'Rules of Engagement'. And Modern Country now prefer to used Politic and Economy rather than military powers. Dragon Quest, pretty much THE usual RPG game, can easily render our modern world helpless just by the magic of its Demon Lord. He can seal different parts of the world into its own dimension, cutting it off from the rest of the world before invading them one by one. And when that happens, he'll send the rain that turns you into stone. And the "rain" is just symbolic since if you're indoor when the rain happens, you'll still get turned into stone. Anyone left will be slaughtered by his killer robots (what, you think he'll stay medieval forever?) Or he could just wait it out after he shatters the world, see how our world's economy crumbles into pieces. kingofthenerfs said: Takuan_Soho said: The problem isn't that magic can't defeat modern technology, rather magic wouldn't understand how to defeat modern technology until it was too late. If someone knowledgeable of technology's limitations were to lead the magic side, victory wouldn't be that difficult. Imagine dragons catching fuel laden jets on ground, mages casting illusions on radar systems, dwarfs tunneling underneath entrenched positions. This is only a start. Vampires who cannot be shot, zombies who cannot be killed, ghosts, ghouls, demons, all attacking in unison. In Gate the forces of fantasy don't understand their opponent, but the more they understand, the more equal they become. I do not think you understand how powerful modern tech is. Not only would dragons be easily seen both in radar and visually they are also slow and weak to modern force. The show states they were able to pen with 12.7mm rounds and showed Guntanks pening with 35mm rounds very easily. To give some perspective a 5.56 round fired out of a M4 has 3.098 kJ of force, 12.7 round fired out of a 50. cal has 20.595 kJ of force, the 35mm Guntank round has 1,622.59 kJ of force and a M1A2 Sabot round has around 26,960.98 kJ of force. No Fantasy Army, no matter how numerous, can, without plot bullshit, beat a modern force. Especially to due the thing has in since the start of the 19th century has killed the majority of men in war, Artillery. You guys need to show modern technology and modern weapons, and especially conventional weapons, some more respect. inb4 you call powerful magic "plot bullshit" Tatsuya said: This is somewhat of a complicated topic in that it depends on what type of magic your referring to, if it's typical D&D or at most say, most final fantasy level magic i'd say that modern technology would easily win, however if we're talking about occult or magic spoken of in religions (wicca, christianity, hinduism,etc), then not only would modern technology lose, but it would be an outright curbstomp, keep in mind that magic in that form manipulates the spiritual world and energies of the world, all one needs to look at is the conservation of energy to understand how utterly broken this would be if possible to control, that said it did have one flaw usually in that it required a form of medium to control usually. So basically, modern day interpretations of magic would be curbstomped, ancient and occult understanding would be the adverse. lol high level DnD wizard can take anything the modern world has to offer. HELLSATAN said: Aoi076 said: HELLSATAN said: Anyone want more links for WN that has modern army versus other world medieval army I know a lot of them. PS. The link I have before the magic army lost to WWII technology. Do you has any? I've wrote the modern vs medieval army story in Fictionpress but I lack of sources. The only story I know is GATE, Salvation War, and several random Familiar of Zero fanfic. If you can read Japanese here. http://ncode.syosetu.com/n6495bk http://ncode.syosetu.com/n7498bd/ http://ncode.syosetu.com/n6408bv/ http://ncode.syosetu.com/n2844bt http://ncode.syosetu.com/n2077bu http://ncode.syosetu.com/n0138bl Warning some of this has not been updated in months except for brigade of iron. Yukikaze, and Japan struggles in a new world (Not sure about the title cause my Japanese suck) and Japan summoned. This title just recently got updated. Also this author keeps making new story but haven't finish a single one all of them involves modern army and other world army I know some others to but I have to look for my copy of the links. http://mypage.syosetu.com/435154/ Now I want the link to that fiction story of yours All those fucking MUH RACISM in the fantasy world. Absolutely disgusting. Their take on the theme is so childish it makes me want to puke. More Japs should read old English literature to see what racism is really like. I don't care about racism cause my country has no problem with that, the only one who view this as racism are people who live in country where there are racism. |
Aug 12, 2015 5:29 AM
#83
IheartC2 said: kinda hard to believe that magic is better then modern weaponry when it isn't real. Unless i see what magic can really do in the modern world, then ill side with it. But for now guns and rockets are the real threat to me. Plus sniper can kill with out being seen. |
Aug 12, 2015 5:32 AM
#84
Vudis said: Blank you are overhyping the apostles too much. They are neither immortal nor as op as you make them out to be. With the example of Rory: She is "immortal" but she only lives until 1000 years old. Her body will heal any wounds but with bigger wounds and torn limbs it will take time. One could also play the good old trap card where she might regenerate but is not able to do anything. Also her battle against the special forces doesn't mean she will win all the time. In this scenario the special forces of different countries were fighting eachother plus she suddenly appeared and they didn't have any knowledge of her. It was also a close proximity fight to begin with, something that suits her. By no means does that mean she can win against special forces that are knowledgable about her abilities and have prepared a setup against her. That needed to be pointed out. You also forgot to point out that. [spoiler] two apostle are actually sealed one was chop to pieces and feed to beast the other was buried alive. |
Aug 13, 2015 2:29 AM
#85
Aug 13, 2015 2:52 PM
#86
IheartC2 said: kinda hard to believe that magic is better then modern weaponry when it isn't real. Unless i see what magic can really do in the modern world, then ill side with it. But for now guns and rockets are the real threat to me. WOW the "it's the not real" excuse XD Magic has won, it's over people. Forget about low level gate magic (even they can win if they have a genius commander), if Overlord for example was used, just one mid level necromancer will take over the world easily. |
Aug 14, 2015 12:25 AM
#87
Aug 14, 2015 5:01 AM
#88
Who is the most powerful wizard in Gate? What is his/her most powerful magic? Let's start the argument there and not some random insertion of awesome magical reasons. |
#CHEXIT |
Aug 14, 2015 1:11 PM
#89
Sukebe14 said: I dont imagine any mage that could withstand concentrated artillery fire, carpet bombing or shot from very far using sniper rifle. Orsted from Mushoku Tensei can withstand a nuclear blast with getting only minor injuries while withholding his power at 100% (aka restraining use of mana). |
Aug 14, 2015 2:06 PM
#90
Please, if you all are going to discuss about powerlevels keep it IN UNIVERSE and in this case, like others have said, the Magic in GATE is far too unwieldy to overcome modern military technology. End of story. |
I wish Cowboy Bebop never existed. |
Aug 14, 2015 2:35 PM
#91
I'm a huge high fantasy nerd, and very few high fantasy universes that I've watched/read have magic as powerful and long-ranged as nukes. There are some exceptions (for instance Slayers with giga slave), but the classic RPG magic usually caps out at stuff like powerful fire and blizzard spells. Also, let's put this into perspective. Generally in universes with magic, wizards are put on an equal playing field as archers and swordsmen, just different "classes". So this would be the same as asking if bow users and swordsmen stand a chance against modern technology. |
ex_necrossAug 14, 2015 2:41 PM
Aug 14, 2015 3:13 PM
#92
ex_necross said: I'm a huge high fantasy nerd, and very few high fantasy universes that I've watched/read have magic as powerful and long-ranged as nukes. There are some exceptions (for instance Slayers with giga slave), but the classic RPG magic usually caps out at stuff like powerful fire and blizzard spells. Also, let's put this into perspective. Generally in universes with magic, wizards are put on an equal playing field as archers and swordsmen, just different "classes". So this would be the same as asking if bow users and swordsmen stand a chance against modern technology. Argument 1: Wizards = Archers = Swordsmen Argument 2: Archers = Swordsmen < Guns Argument 3: Wizards < Guns |
#CHEXIT |
Aug 14, 2015 3:23 PM
#93
Imeon said: ex_necross said: I'm a huge high fantasy nerd, and very few high fantasy universes that I've watched/read have magic as powerful and long-ranged as nukes. There are some exceptions (for instance Slayers with giga slave), but the classic RPG magic usually caps out at stuff like powerful fire and blizzard spells. Also, let's put this into perspective. Generally in universes with magic, wizards are put on an equal playing field as archers and swordsmen, just different "classes". So this would be the same as asking if bow users and swordsmen stand a chance against modern technology. Argument 1: Wizards = Archers = Swordsmen Argument 2: Archers = Swordsmen < Guns Argument 3: Wizards < Guns Obviously OP's question cant be answered because magic is different per universe, but yes that is correct. All the same argument though. Wizards are generally as powerful as skilled swordsmen and archers within their universe, and we know neither of those can stand up to nukes or guns. |
Aug 14, 2015 7:40 PM
#94
ex_necross said: Imeon said: ex_necross said: I'm a huge high fantasy nerd, and very few high fantasy universes that I've watched/read have magic as powerful and long-ranged as nukes. There are some exceptions (for instance Slayers with giga slave), but the classic RPG magic usually caps out at stuff like powerful fire and blizzard spells. Also, let's put this into perspective. Generally in universes with magic, wizards are put on an equal playing field as archers and swordsmen, just different "classes". So this would be the same as asking if bow users and swordsmen stand a chance against modern technology. Argument 1: Wizards = Archers = Swordsmen Argument 2: Archers = Swordsmen < Guns Argument 3: Wizards < Guns Obviously OP's question cant be answered because magic is different per universe, but yes that is correct. All the same argument though. Wizards are generally as powerful as skilled swordsmen and archers within their universe, and we know neither of those can stand up to nukes or guns. Also, OP should be specific on what world we are discussing with and also, it should be specify what is the most powerful magic in that realm so we can give a proper counter to it. Silly magics like "know everything", "repulse everything", "immortality" is ARG |
#CHEXIT |
Aug 15, 2015 2:04 AM
#95
Ahegyao said: Please, if you all are going to discuss about powerlevels keep it IN UNIVERSE and in this case, like others have said, the Magic in GATE is far too unwieldy to overcome modern military technology. End of story. As Ahegyao wrote, magic in GATE at least up to episode 7 anime and except Rory is rather unwieldy and not as powerful as some modern weapons. The main problem is the scarcity of powerful mages. The elfs weren't able to win with a dragon that the Japanese could easily kill if they had more equipment and soldiers. Lelei La Lelena might become much more capable in the future but at the moment she doesn't seem to be of a great threat. The only one that appeared so far with great power that JSDF could be scared of is Rory. But here is the same problem again, she is alone. It may be difficult to make other apostols collaborate with each other and even then, their numbers are puny compared to U.S. Army for example. |
Aug 23, 2015 3:45 AM
#96
To those saying about magic being superior question why are you including stuff like Touhou char or characters from other shows that in there world magic is made to be superior , this anime is using the classic magician thing where , they dont have any instantaneous ability to regenerate or magician are trained to be super soldier that can kill anything and if you hurt his imouto in any way then GG for (Tatsuya from Mahouka) or where we have a techically gods that made a world for yokai or magical creature (Yukari from Touhou?) or putting some other OP magician shit , the magicians is mostly in the level of Harry Potter (Say some words or enchantation to cast) and magic here is not common where only a select few so if were gonna discuss magic and modern weapons here lets just keep it here because if we talk about other characters that are magicians then us that think modern weapons are better should bring up stuff like EVA , Gundam or anime mecha or we can Bring characters from other universe or shows to prove that machine is better than magic. |
Aug 24, 2015 7:23 PM
#97
The fundamental question is if magic is unique to humans in the fantasy world, or if humans can learn it in the modern world. Technology is superior to magic in the sense that it can be mass produced. Look at the JSDF in the show, Pina even mentions it herself, guns are not magic, but when distributed to every soldier in an Army the Army becomes very powerful. The best aspect of technology is that any human can use it with relative ease. Furthermore, there are other aspects of our technology that has been barely explored in the show. For instance, our communications technology. The internet, communicating through radio signals, satellites. Communication is one of the most important aspects of any military. This dichtomy is displayed in the show, Itami easily calls for reinforcements over the comms, yet Pina had no way of informing her knights of the Peace Treaty before they captured Itami. Modern warfare includes not just the powerful guns, but the communications and logistics. Research and Development is what keeps a Modern Military strong. When Itami was at the conference explaining the civilian casualties it was already mentioned that dragon scales were as strong as tungsten. This implies they have scientists and researchers examining dragon corpses in the background. Basically, whenever JSDF meets a threat they can't handle, you can be guaranteed they have a team trying to figure out a weakness they could exploit. If magic ends up being stronger than modern technology, I guarantee you that the modern world would adapt and research magic to an extent never seen in the fantasy world. |
Aug 25, 2015 6:19 AM
#98
Magic is only as powerful as the author allows it to be in the story that they are making. In Gate, it is obviously not as powerful as many people who've watched a lot of anime involving magic is concerned. I think that was a fine choice because realistically magic (should it exist) should never be a skill that one can have and instantly crush armies within one day to a month of knowing about the skill. Drawing on the manga Lelei acknowledges that technology outperforms magic in almost every respect because technology is easier to use and less time consuming to learn as compared to magic. While magic in Gate is perfectly capable of outperforming technology, it requires one to train long and hard and experiment hard with magic principles. Even if you can have one person outperform technology, it will only be a matter of time for those who wield technology to overwhelm the mage with numbers. If we are talking about magic similar to the likes in "Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei" however, then that is a completely story as compared to classical magic. |
ScoomKunAug 25, 2015 6:24 AM
Aug 26, 2015 3:00 AM
#99
I might be a bit late here, but lets see. First, we need to excluse every other world magic, we ant use them as a examples, beause they are from different shows. This is a GATE disussion about GATE magic. We win. It simple as that. Now why? 1. As far as we have seen, magic even in that fantasy world, is quite rare. And even the best of soldiers/equipment or anything best can be beaten, either by precision strikes learning weaknesses or zerging the enemy until it drowns in bodies as russians did in WW2. 2. Magic indeed has its limits. As we have seen before in this show, when magi is used, it is a speific kind of magic. Why is this a weakness? That magic can be observed and fought against. Not only that, but magic takes energy, it has its operational limits and it is also limitedd by knowledge. 3 The fantasy world people dont know anything about modern ones. They dont know how the equipment works. I saw wsome people saying that magic could be used creativelly, like freezing oil or some shit in the helicopters. But this would require the fantasy people knowing what the hell does a helicopter do and how it even works. They just dont have that knowledge. They think of the tehnology as monsters, as even theprincess (highly eduated person) thought that helicopters were some kind of beasts. 4. And the last proof, which is undisputable. Dragons. Remember what was said about them? They are treated as naturaldisasters because they are impposible to stop. What did the modern army do once they found a dragon? They won against him. If the GATE magicians cant take care of a dragon how can they even hope to defeat a modern army? ESPECIALLY, since the modern army hasnt even shown its full potential. Moreover: Hell,even WW2 russians would beat them. How? Take 30 or so Katiushas (Rocket launching systems) and look at them level EVERYTHING in their path. We also have jets which go at supersonic speeds, they can shoot rockets, drop bombs even Look guys. Magic is inceed strong and in some anime overpowered. But if we put up GATE magic vs GATE modern weaponry,they will be just anihilated. |
There is no "Good or "bad" anime. There is only different anime. |
Aug 26, 2015 12:20 PM
#100
Yes. It would look like this. That's the new promo video from Gate. All the firepower scenes in 90 seconds. |
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