| Seriously, I see it everywhere. Don't tell me young girls actually like reading this? I mean I understand that alpha males are liked by many, but these guys are just straight up bullies and even criminals in some cases. Can someone try to explain the appeal to me, and why it's such a popular theme? :S |
 |
| Not sure if it applies to Shoujo manga but it's a common trope for yaoi to include themes of rape because it's something that women enjoy. |
| "Masturbation." ---The End. |
| It's half and half, not that common in newer series as I've seen. I think a lot of people like reading "hard to get" guys who turn into big softies later, just like guys who are into abusive tsunderes. |
| Some girls like abusive relationships. They like being submissive. Rape fantasies and such. It's similar to having a bitchy hard to get girlfriend, some guys like that. |
 |
| Well I think dominant girls are hot af so I can't say it's unthinkable for the opposite scenario to be true for a lot of girls too |
  |
| Have you seen 50 shades of Grey? Females love to be treated badly by men, especially when they're rich & hot. |
 |
mayukachan said: It's half and half, not that common in newer series as I've seen. I think a lot of people like reading "hard to get" guys who turn into big softies later, just like guys who are into abusive tsunderes. I kind of get that, though I feel the abusive males are written in a more serious light than the female tsunderes if you get what I am trying to say, which is why I empathise more with them than the poor males that have to put up with the female tsunderes, despite being a male myself. |
|
vansonbee said: Have you seen 50 shades of Grey? Females love to be treated badly by men, especially when they're rich & hot. In fiction, yes. I don't really get it, but it seems freakishly popular so I guess it's a very common fetish. |
-_- |
DramaticBucket said: vansonbee said: Have you seen 50 shades of Grey? Females love to be treated badly by men, especially when they're rich & hot. In fiction, yes. I don't really get it, but it seems freakishly popular so I guess it's a very common fetish. I don't even know why it's that popular. I've read female-targeted erotica that is much better and has a great plot. Probably the same reason why Junjou Romantica is the only yaoi that keeps getting animated. Goddamn fujoshi. |
Dark_Chaos said: Seriously, I see it everywhere. Don't tell me young girls actually like reading this? I mean I understand that alpha males are liked by many, but these guys are just straight up bullies and even criminals in some cases. Can someone try to explain the appeal to me, and why it's such a popular theme? :S I can't speak for others, but there are two reasons I personally enjoy it: The first reason is that it gives the protagonist a reason to hate the love interest. Lovẹ–hate stories are fairly popular and it's honestly a drug more so than actual storytelling. I've seen explanations that reading about conflicted emotions in the protagonist might trigger some kind of pleasant chemical response in the brain and I think it's plausible. For whatever reason cliché lines such as this actually make me giggle and it's somewhat addictive even:  In this case it isn't even caused by sexual assault but by that the love interest treats the entire school as his plaything and enjoys causing mystery just to see how people will react. The protagonist has been betrayed by him multiple times, and knows he's dangerous but falls in love with him anyway and I like how well the story portrays those emotions. The other part is simply that rape is honestly arousing as a concept, at least to read about it, probably for the same reason. You'll note that few of those stories are outright rape and only Siruka Badaudon really does that which is why many people find it far more disturbing than usual. What they usually portray is again mixed feelings of the protagonist during it, who on some level does not want it, but on another level does. In any case, people act like it's only a thing in girly titles, but let's be honest that things such as Darling in the Franxx aren't much different, and even in titles such a as Eromanga Sensei, where it's trivialized it still exists though it's more so played of as comedy than actually threatening. |
| So glad to see this thread because I've always hated how all the asshole abusive guys in shoujo are always popular with the girls as long as they look hot while the decent ones who can respect the MC's boundaries are seen as boring or even hated by girls if they get in the way of their toxic ships, as a girl I've never been able to like those types and BL just makes it 10x worse because the hot gay guy in there is a straight up rapist. |
 |
Maou_heika said: Meanwhile, no one ever complained about:So glad to see this thread because I've always hated how all the asshole abusive guys in shoujo are always popular with the girls as long as they look hot while the decent ones who can respect the MC's boundaries are seen as boring or even hated by girls if they get in the way of their toxic ships, as a girl I've never been able to like those types and BL just makes it 10x worse because the hot gay guy in there is a straight up rapist.  One is a generally nice, compassionate person; the other has no human compassion and treats humans as resources, impatient, easily angered, and often physically violent with the male lead, and of course won before the story even started.  One is a generally nice, friendly person; the other is ungrateful, hauty, and physically violent at every opportunity, and of course again won the heart of the male lead before the story even started.  One is a generally nice person; the other is a sexual harasser, completely indifferent to human life, threatened to kill the male lead if he'd leave and used him as a bodily resource for quite a long time in order to find someone else until realizing they were the same person, of course also the winner  Only one of those two kept the male lead on a chain, blasted explosion magic at him, and generally treated him like dirt, and that would be he winner.  One makes food for the male lead and is in fact does not kick him; the other is ungreatful, easily angered, kicks him, forces him to play sibling eroge when he doesn't want to and kicks him out of his chair on the ground for not choosing the lewdest routes, and, surprise surprise, the winner. It's everywhere, but people only complain when the a female character chooses a male bad guy over the good guy, and never if the opposite happens. — All the incels and feminists [horse shoe] are suddenly nowhere to be found then. |
| You obviously haven't been around anime fans for long if you are saying that no one complained about those. Don't know if you are just retarded or what but why would someone complain about abusive female tsunderes on a thread that's asking about these assholes from shoujo. Try to use your brain instead of your privates to think for once, I can tell that you have disgusting fetishes based on your previous posts. |
|
Maou_heika said: People are only complaining insofar they don't like the character archetype and don't find it endearing.You obviously haven't been around anime fans for long if you are saying that no one complained about those. Don't know if you are just retarded or what but why would someone complain about abusive female tsunderes on a thread that's asking about these assholes from shoujo. Try to use your brain instead of your privates to think for once, I can tell that you have disgusting fetishes based on your previous posts. If you believe they're actually complaining because it's a bad influence then I'm sure you can produce some MyAnimeList threads where they do or something similar. Also, I forgot to address this: and BL just makes it 10x worse because the hot gay guy in there is a straight up rapist. Can you list even a single character in “BL” that is “gay”? Can you even come up with a single example? I know of some, but I also now it's highly niche and I doubt someone who doesn't frequently read it, or actually thinks it's common, has read enough to drum up even a single example of soeone who is “gay” in any boys' love title. |
reginald11 said: What are you even talking about? No one said anything about "bad influence". I doubt anyone would be influenced by fictional characters and play out those things irl.People are only complaining insofar they don't like the character archetype and don't find it endearing. If you believe they're actually complaining because it's a bad influence then I'm sure you can produce some MyAnimeList threads where they do or something similar. Also, I forgot to address this: Ah, so want to say they are bi or something so fujoshis can have the cake and eat it too? A rapist is still a rapist though and BL glorifies and romanticizes them which is why I dropped more than half of the BL I've tried so far. Wolfram is 100% gay by the way.and BL just makes it 10x worse because the hot gay guy in there is a straight up rapist. Can you list even a single character in “BL” that is “gay”? Can you even come up with a single example? I know of some, but I also now it's highly niche and I doubt someone who doesn't frequently read it, or actually thinks it's common, has read enough to drum up even a single example of soeone who is “gay” in any boys' love title. |
|
| @reginald11 At this point I honestly have no clue what you are going on about. From my experience with the anime community in all these years, guys usually have split opinions about abusive female characters, some like them others don't whereas when it comes to girls there's almost unanimous support for asshole male characters. As for BL if those guys are not gay and not bi then what exactly are they? Please do share your knowledge with me. I don't keep a track of MAL threads but let's just have you create one to demonstrate your point and let's see what replies we get. |
|
| everyone else before in this thread is so wrong for saying women just straight up enjoy rape and abuse????? lol sometimes old comments really show their age on here (also why and how do people find these old ass topics) its the "i can change him" thing. like oh he's actually a real softie on the inside and he'll end up being mean to everyone else but not me. because eventually he'll realize i'm different bc i see through his outer shell and truly care for him. still dumb tho |
reginald11 said: rannster said: Hardly, they almost never change, and if they do most of the fans abandon the title.everyone else before in this thread is so wrong for saying women just straight up enjoy rape and abuse????? lol sometimes old comments really show their age on here (also why and how do people find these old ass topics) its the "i can change him" thing. like oh he's actually a real softie on the inside and he'll end up being mean to everyone else but not me. because eventually he'll realize i'm different bc i see through his outer shell and truly care for him. still dumb tho This actually happened in Can't Refuse the Lonely Girl and many of the original fans became uninterested as it was no longer about being unable to refuse the titular “lonely girl” and the noncon appeal was lost. Almost all of the popular titles end where they finish. Usui didn't change; Hotaru didn't change, none of the Sakimaki's changed, Ryou didn't change and it ended where it started. — The appeal is absolutely that noncon is simply exciting and arousing. Did you really watch Diabolik Lovers with the idea that it was about “changing” anyone? The phrase is a meme lol. It’s supposed to be ironic and often used to talk abt a fandom obsession with psychopaths, serial killers, etc; people who can’t and won’t change. Didn’t expect them to in any of these series. |
| Eh, I feel like that was more true back in the 90s and early 2000s. Most of the mainstream Shojo manga nowadays have gotten way better with that. |
Bum Bum Dum Dum |
reginald11 said: I literally found one on the very same site -> Love Hina and the Normalization of Male Abuse. And I fully agree with the article you have linked, Doumyouji is an abusive bastard and such a series getting multiple adaptations in itself is proof of how much girls love complete assholes like him. What's your excuse now?They talk about whether they personally like them or not, they don't get morally offended by it and argue that it promotes unhealthy relationship ideals from a political standpoint, not an entertainment præference one. https://www.animefeminist.com/feature-harmful-gimmick-the-normalization-of-abuse-in-shoujo-manga/ Try find something like this about titles for boys; it's very easy to find it about titles for girls. I never said they aren't what you call “bi”; I simply said they aren't what you call “gay” and that calling them “gay” reveals not having read much at all. More empty words, if you can't even tell their sexuality, your argument is pointless. |
|
| @reginald11 Had enough of your bs, you go simp for your abusers and rapists, don't talk to me. |
|
| If it's a Shoujo like Wolf Girl and Black Prince or LDK, then the girl being "harassed" isn't actually a problem because as the story goes along, you see they really do love each other. An easy argument is that they're trapped in an abusive relationship, but that's just not the case. I don't mean to sound overly preachy here, but it's not like there are relationships that are perfect where they never fight or say hurtful things to each other anyway. Now, if it's something like Drowning Love, now that's absolutely unacceptable. Spoiler: He literally blackmails her into being in a relationship with him by threatening to send her current boyfriend a video of him sexually assaulting her. That's an evil, abusive, inexcusable relationship, and can't be reasoned by saying "Love isn't perfect," because that's not love. I'm a big fan of shoujo manga and this is often the dynamic, but I'm just as big of a fan of it the other way around, or even when there's no obvious "dom" or "sub" involved. It's just another form of writing that I'm okay with, and at least to me, shoujos tend to be much more well written than a lot of other manga out there, so there are a lot of series with this dynamic that I like because I think they're written nicely as a general whole. Not accusing OP of this, but I think a lot of people who view shoujos this way don't actually read them so they don't know the actual relationship and story of the characters. They just see "mean boy" and "nice girl" and immediately assume it's just a relationship where the girl's getting abused, but that's just not the case. There's a lot more depth to the majority of them. No clue what the other people in this topic think they're talking about, it's a bunch of laughable BS. I'm personally not even interested in this kind of relationship dynamic in real life, but for me at least, I can enjoy something out of fiction that I wouldn't in real life. Also not saying that relationships like these aren't "excusable" in real life, either, I'd give the same response, but I just wanted to throw a little extra on with my own personal opinions on it. |
HaaruukaaSep 12, 2022 12:31 PM
| Honestly I can only really see the appeal in cases where the chemistry is above par (like Wolf Girl and Black Prince for instance) or the execution is played out such that the "abuse" is not something drastically serious like in Kirai ni Narimasu, Sayama-kun! iirc. Otherwise as a concept......yeah the idea is quite literally stupid. I've seen tons of romances with either the guy or the girl being the twat and it just reaches a point of.....why? It becomes less of an entertainment view and more of a why bother trying to "change" this person who's so clearly an asshole? It's honestly difficult to view a lot of these characters as just someone who's a softy on the inside that can change and more just a waste of time. Just don't bother. Have some pride in yourself and find someone better lol. If they're an asshole, they're an asshole. The funny thing is they often don't actually change all that much more so the FL/ML is just used to it at that point, so that whole "I can change him" idea is rather redundant It's quite surprising this concept is still quite used in modern shoujos/josei (though the extent of "abuse" is probably not as big as older shoujos). Like why not make a story where the FL falls in love with someone........who is normal??? Or at least not an asshole and/or sex driven maniac (which is the case for many josei smut) like it's not that difficult at all and there are some great examples of series' that do this |
 'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
| Females enjoy hot guys liking moves on them just like men love the idea of being pursued by a hot woman. The power of looking sexy can turn a illegal scenario into a desired one. |
 |
| I came to this thread looking for recommendations lmao...anyone can help? Because I see this same complaint about male leads in shoujo being abusive but I've never seen an example of it play out. |
| @reginald11 Because it's not about changing anyone. You correctly pointed out that no one changes most of the time. It is simply because it is what much of the audience wants to see. Yes, and I am simply calling it asinine. The changing aspect was with respect to some of the replies mentioned above, hence why I explained why to me it is a pointless value to the concept. Obviously the entire sell of something such as Diabolik Lovers, or even something milder such as KoiKimo is the noncon aspect, it is even in the title. I would be far less interested in the former if the protagonist ended up in a mansion full of conveniently attractive vampires who didn't force all sorts of sexual, painful, and humiliating things onto the protagonist. — That is the appeal. These are pointless comparisons to make DL has narrative reasoning why the characters behave the way they do towards the FL. Regardless of how good or bad it is, there is justifiable reasoning why the males treat the FL like shit, so of course the appeal will be lost if the opposite were to happen because that is fundamentally changing the story (at least from what I've heard others say, unless I am misremembering things) You cannot unironically give a justifiable reason why the ML in 3 Seconds Later He Turned Into a Beast sexually assaults the FL and then proceeds to victim blame her for it, because there quite literally is none. You can completely remove that aspect and the same story can be told KoiKimo has its entire story centered around that noncon aspect. If you remove it you remove the entire series. Of course if you remove that aspect you remove the entire appeal, because it is entirely built around that. But that is not what I am referring to, I am referring to the general concept of ML treating the FL like shit (or vice versa) as an aspect of a romance story and not the main focus of it (i.e., the story doesn't revolve around the premise that ML/FL is an asshole and/or rapist). Short_Circut said: Otherwise as a concept......yeah the idea is quite literally stupid You can remove (or lessen) the ML treating the FL in Beauty Bunny like trash, and still present the same story as intended. It is not surprising at all. The “why” should be obvious: because there is a market for it and enough fans that want to read it. Not sure where I mention not understanding why it is still there. It is 'surprising' in the sense there's still a significant enough audience to continue to use this idea in shoujo/josei You seem to really come from the very strange perspective that it's not intentional and some kind of writing oversight. Again, not sure where does this even come from. I know the author often intends to have it that way (some even mention it at the end of volumes), doesn't make it any less stupid of a concept. It is as though one ask why one not simply remove the humor from comedies: because the fans want to see humor, obviously. Apples to oranges. A comedy needs its humor to be considered a comedy. If you remove the humor from a comedy it is no longer a comedy A romance does not need the ML to abuse the FL for it to be considered a romance. You can remove the ML treating the FL like utter shit (or even just lessen the harsh treatment) and it will still be a romance with more or less the same story being told. A romance where the story is based on ML abusing FL/vice versa, sure. But again that is not what I was talking about in op |
Short_CircutSep 27, 2022 4:25 PM
'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
| @reginald11 Having a different personal taste than you has little to do with intelligence. What does intelligence have to do with this? I am calling it (the concept) asinine It isn't a comparison. It answers what you asked: you asked why they do not do something; I answer in simple terms that it is because the fanbase doesn't want it. Perhaps 'comparison' is wrong word choice. The 'answers' to the non-existent question do not reflect what the initial argument is If you're referring to this paragraph: Otherwise as a concept......yeah the idea is quite literally stupid. I've seen tons of romances with either the guy or the girl being the twat and it just reaches a point of.....why? It becomes less of an entertainment view and more of a why bother trying to "change" this person who's so clearly an asshole? It's honestly difficult to view a lot of these characters as just someone who's a softy on the inside that can change and more just a waste of time. Just don't bother. Have some pride in yourself and find someone better lol. If they're an asshole, they're an asshole. the '.....why?' is more in reference to the character's decisions (the one on the receiving end of the 'abuse') hence the last few sentences. Maybe it wasn't presented as clearly as I intended. I'll take your word on D.L as I'm not too versed in it regardless. While I don't have the same undeniable evidence as I do in D.L., I'm fairly certain that here too the artist first came up with the setting of a creepy love interest relentlessly pursuing an unwilling protagonist, and only then with a justification as the justification is absolutely thin as to why he fell in love with Itika on the spot. The cover art does not highlight the plot, but the sexual harassment, which is also in the title. KoiKimo started out as a pixiv short series (with the same premise) which then eventually got its own serialization. Still, doesn't really change the fact its entire premise is centered around the idea You are, and you're wondering why that is and find it surprising; I'm explaining to you why: because a not insignificant section of the audience enjoys reading about it. Not sure where you get this narrative from. I've explained clearly the opposite, and the 'why' which you seem to be taking too literally is used in a more rhetorical sense. You very much asked “why not” and I answered. Asking “why” itself of course implies not seeing why, unless one somehow asks things one already knows. 'Why not' is a commonly used rhetorical question. It is used in a suggesting matter like 'Why not try our delicious fruit?.' You're not actually asking a question looking to be answered I see, so to be clear, it is a stupid idea of people to make a smart business decision and cater to a demand all the while being able to write what one enjoys? Perhaps with “stupid” you simply mean others enjoying something you don't. My friend, you need to stop moving these goalposts here. This is not criticizing whether someone enjoys it or not This is not criticizing the financial benefits of its use or not This is criticizing the concept of having the ML/FL 'abusing' the partner with no worth to the actual story. That's it. To give a different perspective, Sol series' with the concept of yuri/yaoi bait in them tend to be popular and the authors could (or could not) enjoy writing it that way, that doesn't mean it doesn't come under criticism from members of the general/lgbt community Yes, apparently you think one taste cannot be compared with the other. — Might you explain why? oh jesus, You are comparing a genre to a concept, these are not similar to each other. The humor/comedy is what makes something a part of the comedy genre. It is a fundamental aspect of it. You cannot label something as comedy if it doesn't have comedy in it. Noncon is not a fundamental aspect of the romance genre. It is a subgenre of romance. You can have a romance without the noncon aspect and it can still be a romance. So to try and compare the use of noncon in romance with that of comedy in comedy is just a flawed comparison, because you are comparing an aspect of a subgenre to an aspect of an entire genre. And a noncon needs to have noncon to still be noncon. Yes, because that is a subgenre of romance, a noncon story needs noncon in it to be considered a noncon. A smut isn't a smut without sex, a GL isn't a GL without 2 girls in love with each other and so on. A romance story doesn't need comedy to be romance either, so why not just remove all comedy from any romantic comedy instead? Since apparently only romance is worth keeping. wat? Honestly, I've said my points and the rebuttal wasn't really that worth it. Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be the strong suit here so I'll just leave it at this. |
Short_CircutSep 28, 2022 10:34 AM
'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
More topics from this board
» 8 Manga to Get to Know Youspaceslut - Mar 12, 2023 |
36 |
by Dotanuki
»»
4 hours ago |
|
Sticky: » 2024 Manga Reading Challenge - Sign Up ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )MRC_mod - Jan 18 |
376 |
by HapHazrD
»»
6 hours ago |
|
Poll: » Manga or Light Novels: Which do you prefer?Digibutter64 - Jan 1, 2020 |
29 |
by Jutrio
»»
Yesterday, 10:43 PM |
|
Sticky: » The 'Help Identifying This Manga/Character' Thread v3 ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )anime-prime - Mar 19, 2022 |
1053 |
by Alexioos95
»»
Yesterday, 10:41 PM |
|
» How many chapters do you read a month?Rissio - Apr 4 |
22 |
by Jutrio
»»
Yesterday, 10:40 PM |