Veganism

Are you a vegan or vegetarian? Otherwise; what's your opinion?

Jul 20, 2015 2:12 PM

#51

Erolno

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Sep 2010

124

animeartlover said:

razor39999 said:

I'm not a nutritionist, but I'm pretty sure the best sources of iron are green vegetables.

Well i do tend to have alot Spinach salads. Is that ok, sir?

Damn, I was crying about patronizing earlier and then I said something like that. Sorry.

Jul 20, 2015 2:30 PM

#52

zodac

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Jan 2009

3326

the dog argument is ridiculous

dogs are historically, throughout many cultures been viewed as human companions. where as cows or pigs or chickens have been always domesticated for live stock. now im not arguing that that does not make them both types of animals, but to try to ask they question "why do people care more about dogs than cows T_T" is pointless, you know why. you can't change human history or perception. sorry. that being said the countries that do eat dog, generally eat a breed of dog that was bred purposely for livestock and while it still might seem cruel, but they have the argument that it has culture significance for them. And hey the french still eat horse, but do we mention that in the west? No, because they're white. #racistwhities

i dont make excuses for what im eating like many people who absent mindlessly consume meat. I revel. you make the claim that carnivores and omnivorse eyes are no like ours. our primate ancestors and relatives are omnivores, violent and savage. they murder each other, they eat each other. chimps are not cute they are vicious. baboons rape and slaughter each other in all out war. this is our nature. i do not make excuses for it. We live, we fuck, we kill. life is gross and violent <3

zodacJul 20, 2015 3:56 PM

Jul 20, 2015 2:48 PM

#53

zodac

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Jan 2009

3326

btw i personally dont have anything against how people choose to eat. but i think the reality of how it is should be kept in mind. there is only one WRONG way to eat, and thats by eating too many carbs =D

Jul 20, 2015 3:10 PM

#54

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564612

Well... I stay thin no matter how many carbs I eat, so... yeah xD

I eat meat, but I do understand those who decide not to. I mean, while we are still animals, I believe that we humans are superior animals. We have the capacity to be neither gross nor violent.

Unlike baboons, we can be kind to all species, and choosing to do so, choosing to attempt to minimize the death and suffering of other animals is an honest, valid way to live your life in my opinion.

Jul 20, 2015 3:20 PM

#55

Erolno

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Sep 2010

124

Ethics are a matter of culture, that's unquestionable, and even from an evolutionary psychology perspective, the different emotional attachment to certain kinds of animals is easily explainable.

The position of veganism (if I understand it correctly) is one almost devoid of personal/cultural bias yet still suffering from potential leaps in logic if you look at it from a purely ethical viewpoint. The basic assumption is seeing every species with a sensory system developed enough to feel pain as equally important of life and avoidance of pain/death.

But at that point you come to practical problems such as consideration of accidental animal deaths and whether or not to take that into account.

Another problem is what do vegans think of cultures with limited access to vegetable foods like pretty much the entirety of North Canadian, Alaskan and Siberian native cultures (less of an issue now, compared to historical periods but still a thing to consider)? Would such cultures be acceptable because they would've died out without eating all those wales/seals/whatnot or should they be morally judged?

Hell even some ludicrous assumptions like not treating multicellular parasitic infections because even though you're benefiting your health by removing such parasites, they are animals with reasonably evolved nervous systems and feel pain.

Or if you dig EVEN deeper, what if plants and other lifeforms that don't have nervous systems, still have enough sensory function to have a "feeling" of discomfort when being chopped down/sliced up/etc. After all they are living things that react to many outside factors, why wouldn't they "feel" bad about us removing parts of them, or completely removing them from the soil/water/whatever habitat and eating them or thermally "abusing" them.

So yeah, it's a hard line for me to draw where exactly one should stop and still be able to not starve yourself to death. A case by case analysis of the life of a certain animal is possibly better than a wide sweeping ethical discussion imo.

Pigs that have been fed food similar to what a wild boar eats, that got to run around and not be closed up in a pen 24/7, that had enough interaction with other pigs are very likely happy pigs. Whether we cut those happy lives short and eat them or let them live it through is a separate subject. At least we won't be eating as much cortisone in the meat of those pigs compared to some poor piggies that never saw the light of day and were fed through a small opening in a space they could barely stand up in. On one point it is illogical at a basic level to cry about dog deaths but not cow deaths, yet if you dig deeper, the logic breaks down somewhat.

TL;DR
Ethics suck because it's not a science, yet is incredibly fun to talk about.

EDIT:
That's also why my main reason for not eating most meat products (apart from some species of fish) is totally unrelated to ethics and related to me having a smell aversion to almost all cooked/fried/etc. meat. It just stinks to me and that's good enough of a reason for my every day life.

ErolnoJul 20, 2015 3:27 PM

Jul 20, 2015 3:59 PM

#56

zodac

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Jan 2009

3326

razor39999 said:
Another problem is what do vegans think of cultures with limited access to vegetable foods like pretty much the entirety of North Canadian, Alaskan and Siberian native cultures (less of an issue now, compared to historical periods but still a thing to consider)? Would such cultures be acceptable because they would've died out without eating all those wales/seals/whatnot or should they be morally judged?

agreed, food is the essence of culture

Jul 21, 2015 3:22 AM

#57

RadicalRaccoon

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Jun 2015

razor39999 said:

Another problem is what do vegans think of cultures with limited access to vegetable foods like pretty much the entirety of North Canadian, Alaskan and Siberian native cultures (less of an issue now, compared to historical periods but still a thing to consider)? Would such cultures be acceptable because they would've died out without eating all those wales/seals/whatnot or should they be morally judged?

In these regions of the world, don't people generally still actually go out and hunt for their own food?
If not, do they rely largely on shipments from other parts of the world and if so, couldn't they just as easily choose to be provided with plant-based foods?

If the former is the case, there's a pretty big difference between going out and hunting to sustain yourself and your family as opposed to supporting an industry that systematically breeds and slaughters billions of animals. People in both modern and historic times have certainly hunted other species out of existence, so I'm not suggesting that this has no noticeable negative impact on the world, but it's certainly better than the alternative and is certainly preferable to hunting for "sport".

Anyway, regardless of whatever situation I may someday find myself in, I am never consuming animals for sustenance ever again. Similarly, I would never consume another human for my own survival either. I, personally, would much rather just die.

razor39999 said:

Hell even some ludicrous assumptions like not treating multicellular parasitic infections because even though you're benefiting your health by removing such parasites, they are animals with reasonably evolved nervous systems and feel pain.

There's nothing wrong with defending yourself or others.

razor39999 said:

Or if you dig EVEN deeper, what if plants and other lifeforms that don't have nervous systems, still have enough sensory function to have a "feeling" of discomfort when being chopped down/sliced up/etc. After all they are living things that react to many outside factors, why wouldn't they "feel" bad about us removing parts of them, or completely removing them from the soil/water/whatever habitat and eating them or thermally "abusing" them.

I know you're presenting this as a hypothetical, but it still sounds stupid as I know people who have used this as an actual argument. Anyway, as far as we currently understand it, in order for something to feel pain and suffer, that something requires a nervous system and some level of self-awareness.

That aside, I do care about the way we treat the world as whole and that includes non-sentient life. This planet is our home and we're over-populating it leading to the loss of habitat and extinction of other species. We're polluting everything and destroying forests quicker than they can re-grow. These sorts of issues weigh heavily on my mind and it's laughable that we as humans claim to be superior to other species when we're destroying our own planet.

razor39999 said:

Pigs that have been fed food similar to what a wild boar eats, that got to run around and not be closed up in a pen 24/7, that had enough interaction with other pigs are very likely happy pigs. Whether we cut those happy lives short and eat them or let them live it through is a separate subject. At least we won't be eating as much cortisone in the meat of those pigs compared to some poor piggies that never saw the light of day and were fed through a small opening in a space they could barely stand up in. On one point it is illogical at a basic level to cry about dog deaths but not cow deaths, yet if you dig deeper, the logic breaks down somewhat.

It's not profitable, nor is it possible to give these animals, which are bred simply to be slaughtered for humans, the same kind of life they would have out in the wild.

Reason 1: People want these dead animals that they unnecessarily consume as food to be cheap.

Reason 2: Due to demand, billions of these animals are bred and slaughtered every year. Is it even possible to give this many animals any decent quality of life? Moreover, even if it were possible, it wouldn't be profitable to do so without substantial increases in cost to consumers.

Anyway, here's a great video on veganism:

It's long, but it addresses pretty much everything that has been brought up in this thread.

RadicalRaccoonJul 21, 2015 3:26 AM

Jul 21, 2015 4:17 AM

#58

Erolno

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Sep 2010

124

Frankly the parasite and plant notions were just for the sake of argument, but I really don't see much of a broad ethical difference between hunting for food and breeding for food (broad being the main word there). As far as actions of the hunter/breeder go they're both killing animals in the end. The only place where I do see a difference and where you could call in ethics on a smaller scale is the difference in treatment of animals before they're slaughtered.

Free range pigs, chicken, etc. are a thing, but you're right that the life is not the same as that in the wild, which wasn't even my argument, just that it's a lot more enjoyable than the mass production farm life. It's actually even more enjoyable than the life in the wild, considering they don't have to worry about predators as much or actively seeking out food. And you're also right about animals bred that way being in no way enough to satisfy the demands of the market.

What it boils down to is, if you're a person that wants to eat meat, but still cares about the life of animals:

1.) eat it less often - the most important thing, since meat isn't even all that healthy or necessary for the human body, plus the minerals and protein in meat are harder to digest and make use of than the proteins and minerals in vegetable food. Having a meal with meat once a week is more than enough tbh. If enough people realized this, the demand for meat would drop and humane meat production ways would be economically more competitive. Which ofc isn't likely to happen any day soon, due to the mass amounts of lobbying the meat industry has in politics, the dependence between that industry and the grain production industry, and the sheer shock it would have for the economics in general. We'd pretty much need a catastrophic event on order of magnitude of another world war or such with massive depopulation as the result to even have any chance of that change really becoming mainstream. But hey, trying to sway people can be entertaining, but doubtful in its outcome.

2.) when you do eat meat, try to buy it from free range farms, or other similarly more comfortable living conditions for the animal, it's both more "ethical" towards the animal and you're more likely of getting meat with a smaller amount of stress hormones and artificial additives, hence healthier for yourself.

Going all out, and absolutely banning all animal related products isn't necessary imo to be considered a person that likes and cares about animals. As long as you're a person who doesn't promote the mass meat production facilities both with your statements and your consumer behaviours that's good enough. And even then, you will be the minority, and probably won't be able to sway enough people over to your side regardless of what you do. So at that point it's up to you and whether or not your almost imminent failure in this endeavor is a source of inspiration or frustration.

TL;DR
Don't eat too much meat it's unhealthy, regardless of the ethics.

Jul 21, 2015 1:49 PM

#59

zodac

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Jan 2009

3326

razor39999 said:

TL;DR
Don't eat too much meat it's unhealthy, regardless of the ethics.

I eat a high protein and fat diet that consists primarily of meat (mostly poultry and fish) eggs, nuts, vegetables, and some diary. I avoid high carb foods (such as breads, pasta, sweets and many fruits) My cholesterol, blood pressure, vitamin intake, and triglyceride levels are all perfect. I do also lift and run regularly (5 times a week) Last time i saw my doctor he said i was one of the few people he's come across who eats correctly. So i don't agree with that statement. i practice a mix of Paleo and Keto diets.

also don't assume just because someone enjoys eating meat that means they dont care about animals. i love animals, im fascinated by the diversity of life on this planet. however i'm also fascinated with the preparation and cultural aspect of meat. it might sound twisted, but we unfortunately live in a world where humans are the masters of the planet. but i like to remain blunt that i enjoy eating dead animal flesh, im aware of what im eating, and i take enjoyment in it. i think a lot of former meat eaters who become vegetarians of vegans became disgusted by the source of meat and then try to apply that disgust to other current meat eaters "oh if i say its dead bloody animal organs they'll get grossed out and switch too" (i have an ex who is a vegetarian who did that all the time) sorry but that is not the case with everyone, some might, but i know plenty of foodies who more than acknowledge where meat comes from and what it is. The thing about sugar coating is that sugar rots your teeth and makes you fat, meat doesn't.

Jul 22, 2015 5:08 AM

#60

Erolno

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Sep 2010

124

Thing is zodac, high protein foods don't mean much if your intestines aren't capable of digesting those proteins. I would wager that the majority of protein that does get used in your body is from the vegetable and especially nuts part of your diet, and the smaller part from meat. But again, I'm not a nutritionist, so I could be utterly wrong and would actually like to leave this, more chemical, part of the discussion to someone who is actually more knowledgeable.

Another factor is you say you work out on a probably above average level. That also imposes more energy needs and a strengthened sensation of hunger in your body compared to someone else. When it comes to the sensation of hunger, one of the main ways of getting rid of it is not so much through the sheer intake of food, but through the variety of tastes of that food which, once satisfied, give out the sensation of fullness/being sated. Thermally processed meats have higher quantities than vegetable products of a taste called umami, one of the five most commonly accepted categories of taste. Umami is kind of hard to describe in words (as most tastes are) but you could say it's the fullness of a meal that you can feel in the back of your mouth and start of the throat, brothiness if you will. And it's also best when combined with other tastes like salty. It's actually what breast milk mostly tastes like, tomatoes also have that taste, etc. So combining that taste with others creates a sensation of fullness that is more subjectively satisfying than eating the same amount of calories of a food that mostly tastes salty, or mostly sweet, etc.

Another thing to consider are hunter gatherer societies of our past (not only our homo sapiens past, but the ancestors as well) and they had a lot more trouble getting sustenance from meat only or meat mostly diets, since the simple fact is hunting is a lot harder to execute successfully than gathering. In the plains of Africa where we evolved the majority of our food intake was vegetable, hence our rather long intestines similar to omnivores or herbivores.

So even if we do enjoy eating meat we just aren't really fit to rely primarily on it. Even if you look at the cultures that I mentioned earlier that rely on meat mostly foods (Siberian and Canadian natives) their lifespans are usually on average shorter than the lifespans of other cultures with more vegetable intake. But you don't even have to consider within human averages, since those may have all kinds of biases attached to them. Look at the differences between life spans of say a wolf and an elephant, etc.

In the end it's all on the individual to decide, but having a mostly vegetable diet with some meat thrown in is probably a safer bet than the other way around.

Jul 22, 2015 8:04 AM

#61

zodac

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Jan 2009

3326

Veggies are not a great source of protein. The protein I get from meat is largely used by my body. If you really need confirmation I can take pics of my toilet :P Meat is unarguably the best source of protein there is plenty of evidence supporting that. Keep in mind meat consumption was the driving point behind human evolution. It allowed early forms of the homo genus to exert more energy which increased function and use of the brain. Meat is not poison. And I have yet to meet anyone who follows paleo or keto who has health issues. The thing about meat is many people eat it in the most unhealthy ways, accompied by a ton of carbs and surgars. But plenty of vegetarians eat why too many carbs because of the lack or shortage of protein in their diet and they tend to be over weight (I hone stay know more over weight vegetarians than fit or thin ones irl). However I know a vegetarian who follows a strict low carb high protein diet and he is quite healthy.

Hunger can be driven by carb consumption as well. Carbs and sugars expand the stomach, swell the body and then get stored, leaving the bodybunsatisfied. Protein gets used right away, and as someone who eats high protein my appetite is generally curbed, verses when in ate a typical American amount of carbs and was overweight and hungry all the time

Jul 22, 2015 10:35 AM

#62

Erolno

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Sep 2010

124

Your toilet leftovers are what's not used up tho. :D But yeah, maybe you're misunderstanding my posts. I'm not at all advocating complete removal of meat, I'm advocating it's usage as the non primary source of calories since we haven't even evolved to use it as the primary, and those animals that have are on the average shorter lived than herbivores. Carbohydrates will always be the number one source of easily exploitable energy, fats second, protein third.

EDIT:
Another thing which may have got lost in the way, which I'm all for as well is eating meat produced on free range/organic/other similar farms. If for no other reason, because of the simple fact those animals experienced far less stress during their lives.

ErolnoJul 22, 2015 10:40 AM

Jul 22, 2015 2:24 PM

#63

zodac

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Jan 2009

3326

razor39999 said:
Your toilet leftovers are what's not used up tho. :D

that was my point :P my body uses most of what i take in

razor39999 said:
Carbohydrates will always be the number one source of easily exploitable energy, fats second, protein third.

sorry i just cant agree with that as someone who dealt with weight and did not see change until i cut carb consumption and upped protein and fat, but both keto and paleo are popular diets in my area (the NYC area) and i know atleast a dozen people strictly following it and results really show. carbs are easy energy, but people consume way too much of them and generally their lifestyle does not even need a fraction of the amount they consume.

the vegetarian i know who follows high protein/fat and low carb is in 20+, and he attributes his health to not only his vegetarian choices but also his low carb consumption. unless you're a pro athlete, chances are you need <100grams of carbs per day, but honestly i get by perfectly fine with <25gs. i still maintain high energy, which comes from other sources

Jul 22, 2015 6:47 PM

#64

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564612

I'd die before I become a vegan. Can't stand those people honestly.

Jul 24, 2015 8:11 PM

#65

bbmello

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Apr 2011

994

oh man

shokugeki no soma episode 16 spoilers

also i've been watching silver spoon, cool to watch especially from a vegetarian perspective

the way the guy struggles with the fact that they are raising the animals to kill, etc. is really interesting

bbmelloJul 25, 2015 5:27 AM

Jul 27, 2015 10:48 AM

#66

Akiracchi

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Jun 2010

highpriest2500 said:

Akiracchi said:
I'm what they call a flexitarian. (I don't like the word, but I'll use it since it describes best what I do). Basically, it means I eat vegetarian whenever I can (about 98% of the time), but I eat meat on some rare occasions. When I'm invited at someone's house and they serve chicken for instance, well I'll eat a bit of it out of politeness. However, the only meat I do eat on these rare occasions is fish or poultry. No real reason for the distinction: they're animals as well, but I just can't get myself to eat red meat anymore.

No red meat... :( sob sob... Haha. Any particular reason you are against red meat?

Anyone is free to eat what they want, I just chose that for myself at first. About the red meat, it stopped looking appetising to me to be honest! It's not like I'm restricting myself now: like many other vegetarians/vegans, I'm just not attracted to meat anymore.

Sep 24, 2015 3:57 PM

#67

Malighos

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Sep 2012

I personally love eating meat, since most of the time I eat it I also cook it myself. (except pizza). That doesn't mean I don't like veggies / fruits. I pretty much try to eat as little sweets as possible and replace them with fruits as snacks and veggies make for great seasoning, especially onions. One thing that's easy to make and combines everything is the first recipe from shokugeki no souma. The one where you have mashed potatoes with mushrooms and onions, surounded by bacon in the oven, with a dark soy - wine - sake - butter sauce. It is delicious. I also love preparing the food, that's where all the fun is. (especially with meat products). I don't really care about vegans / vegetarians but I can't say I have warm feelings towards them. Some old flat mates of mine were pretending to be vegan / vegetarian (they were always saying they were but they always ate dairy products and meat whenever they got the chance, and I don't mean just fish) and always made comments about how I am cruel and stuff and stuff since I eat meat.

I am better than you.

Apr 15, 2017 11:04 PM

#68

Lotus97

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Apr 2011

11910

Hitler was a vegetarian so vegans are literally worse than Hitler ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

@Malighos That's messed up about your roommates. People are weird ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sep 12, 2018 9:30 AM

#69

Pidgy_Surfer

Offline

Jul 2015

RadicalRaccoon said:
I'm just kind of curious as to whether there are any other vegans or vegetarians here or if I'm all alone. (^_^;)

This is my preferred definition of veganism.

Vegan said:
A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of all animals, including humans, and the environment.

In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or
partly from animals.

Anyway, I suppose this could be a general thread for veganism and vegetarianism.
If you don't like vegans, feel free to say so!
If you have any questions about veganism, feel free to ask!

(*ゝω・)ﾉじゃね♪

I'm vegan since 2008

Oct 21, 2018 12:59 PM

#70

BlokeTokes

Offline

Feb 2013

1690

RadicalRaccoon said:
people who support the slaughter of billions of Cows, Pigs, Chickens, Turkeys, and so on condemn China when they eat dogs.

Well humans didn't originally take in dogs for pets, they had uses back in the day, same with cats. It just evolved into us being used to living with them and feeling uncomfortable with the thought of eating them, but I'm sure if for some reason society had to start doing it, they would.

And wow I just realized I'm responding to a comment from 2015 lol, well I'm semi-vegetarian. I eat a bit of meat every 3 days, and a lot of eggs though, so I guess not really lol. I try to limit myself though not out of prioritizing cows over dogs, but because I feel we won't be able to sustain the meat production for much longer (will be a phosphorous shortage that will stunt pesticide production, which stunts production of food for the animals we eat), with overpopulation and such. I don't think people need to stop eating meat, but everyone should tone it down a bit.

Oct 24, 2018 12:29 PM

#71

Pidgy_Surfer

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Jul 2015

D: why did I read so much bacon in this post? today I ate bacon bits imitation, it was better than the real thing anyways.

Oct 25, 2018 9:08 AM

#72

encephalic

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Aug 2008

1749

Reminded me of this

Nov 29, 2018 5:43 AM

#73

DDDeleteDDD

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Oct 2013

I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, but I have seen many debates about veganism and when it comes to topics like health and ethics, it's really hard to give a proper counter-argument against vegans, I would go as far to say, you really can't dispute it, all the research shows that a vegan diet is the most healthy and efficient and less likely to have all these health risks, especially health risks like cancer.

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